The Gay Issue

[SeekerSA]

Hi All

I am only many secular boards and this is a hot topic.  Seeing how UR does not play an ET threat card, how do Universalists view this matter?

My issue with the mainstream is that they cherry pick Leviticus to condemn this yet refuse to stone their children when disobedient and choose to eat shellfish.

Romans 1 does not cut it either for me as that IMO was dealing with believers and NOT unbelievers.  South Africa has gay marriage allowed and the sky did not fall.

So probably the questions are:

1. What does gay marriage directly threaten your marriage/lifestyle?
2. Do you really understand how they think or makes them what they are?

Please remember we have gay members (one I know of). Lurkers will not see this thread.

[Molly]

Seeker, I'm not sure why you keep bringing up shellfish as if that is ridiculous.  Having eaten shellfish all my life, I know about the dangers, and exercise extreme care.  I do love shellfish but it can be dangerous and the types of sicknesses it can cause would most definitely kill people in the days of the Old Testament, and even today among those who are not careful.



Old Testament--No shellfish--

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.

-- Leviticus 11:10



New Testament

Matthew 15:11
What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "


Diseases from shellfish--From the CDC--

What are marine toxins?

Marine toxins are naturally occurring chemicals that can contaminate certain seafood. The seafood contaminated with these chemicals frequently looks, smells, and tastes normal. When humans eat such seafood, disease can result.

What sort of diseases do marine toxins cause?

The most common diseases caused by marine toxins in United States in order of incidence are scombrotoxic fish poisoning, ciguatera poisoning, paralytic shellfish poisoning, neurotoxic shellfish poisoning and amnesic shellfish poisoning.



Here's one example of the type of disease from shellfish--We call it 'Red Tide'--



Amnesic shellfish poisoning is a rare syndrome caused by a toxin made by a microscopic, red-brown, salt-water plant, or diatom called Nitzchia pungens. The toxin produced by these diatoms is concentrated in shellfish such as mussels and causes disease when the contaminated shellfish are eaten. Patients first experience gastrointestinal distress within 24 hours after eating the contaminated shellfish. Other reported symptoms have included dizziness, headache, disorientation, and permanent short-term memory loss. In severe poisoning, seizures, focal weakness or paralysis, and death may occur.





God really does care about the health and wellbeing of his children.  He does not make arbitrary laws.

Shellfish can be dangerous because, among other reasons, they filter the water.  Any contaminants in the water will be present in high concentrations in shellfish.  God knows what he's talking about, since he made everything.

[DeeDee]

Thanks Molly, that really cleared it up for me  :thumbsup:

[Sarah]

What about mixing materials in your clothes?

Oh yeah, that is spiritual, so we don't have to apply it literaly.

What about beastiality? Obviously wrong. Or is just for hygenic reasons? If the cleanliness part is taken care in ways :Whistle: then would it be equal to sanitizing your shellfish now a days?

I could go on and on. I'm glad He said He'd write His laws in my heart so I don't have to try and decipher which ot laws are allowable if modern day hygenic applications can de-sanitize, which are always forbidden, and which are ok because they are really to be applied spiritually.

I don't have the answer to the gay question. In my heart I do not condemn them. I don't think it is a cut and dry issue. Sometimes I think it is a result because of hurts, sometimes because of lust, and sometimes because it is natural. If a person is truly gay because that is how their brain works, it would be hard for me to condemn them to a life of celebasy.

[Molly]

California

Gay marriage was legislated from the bench, a neat trick since judges are not allowed to legislate.

The people of the state have voted it down, but gays don't seem to care what the people of the state want and are continuing to sue in court.


Ct

Gay marriage has just been legislated from the bench.


MA

Gay marriage was legislated from the bench.  The people of the state got thousands of signatures to put the issue on the ballot so they could vote on it,  but the legislators were intimidated by the gay community into blocking it, so the people have been prevented from voting on it.  There are now yearly gay parades through downtown boston with gays in all kinds of undress, drag, women who have had their breasts removed to look like men parading topless, and so forth.

The petitions for putting it on the ballot so people could vote was put on the internet and anyone who signed it got threatening, intimidating, and obscene calls from all over the country--so now people are afraid to get involved.

It is now entering the elementary schools.  One father went to the school in a rage when his kindergartener came home with a book promoting gay marriage.  He was arrested and received a restraining order keeping him away from the school for 6 months.  Parents are feeling violated and helpless because they are being told that they have no say in what their children are taught--more legislation from the bench and the teachers union.

One such book is King and King.  In this book, a Prince is told by his fat, ugly, and altogether unattractive mother that it is time for him to get married.  Although he is treated like a child by his mother, he looks to be about 40 lol.  So they bring princesses from all over the world to present to the prince as a potential bride.  One princess is fat, one princess is ugly and wears glasses, one princess is tall, awkward, and skinny with too long arms, also black, one princess is a total airhead from Texas.   Finally, a princess appears who looks pretty good, with long blonde hair, and the prince is smitten--with her brother.

The prince marries the brother and they live happily ever after, giving each other a big kiss on the lips at the end.

Quite frankly, if I were a six year old girl reading that, I might consider killing myself.  If I were a boy, I'm not sure how I'd feel--probably terrified.

If I had a child in the public schools, I would take him out of school and homeschool him myself if that was the only other option.


FLA and Arizona

The people have voted against gay marriage.  The battle continues.

[Molly]

Christians and non christians alike judge and maintain the hatred they do for Gays and Lebsians and they are just fighting back.

Huh?  Just fighting back?  Keying people's cars, threatening them, polluting the minds and wellbeing of their elementary school children---is abusive.

There is NO excuse for abuse.  None.

I'm thinking that the only reasonable person, gay or not,  who would actually approve of King and King would be a pedophile.  I bet that book would give a pedophile a big smile.  The little boys are being groomed.  Men kiss men on the lips.

[Molly]

The book is a symptom of a bigger problem.   

Ever been beaten because someone just thought you was gay?   

Even been thrown out of a church of good ole bible thumpin morons because of the same thing?

Gays have the same rights as every other American--full and complete rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.   They are being used right now as one vehicle to destroy these rights for all Americans.  


Really I personally have no issue with how they want to live their own lives. I think sex should take place behind closed doors.   I strongly object to the indoctrination of children into a gay lifestyle.  I object to the disintegration of the family but that has been going on for decades and is part of the communistic conversion of America.  It started with the woman's movement.  I don't really want to go to church and find a gay pastor when the Bible speaks against the lifestyle.  I wouldn't want to go downtown and see it looking like Sodom and Gomorrah whether it was gays or straights doing it in the streets.  I would grab any Priest by the throat who violated my child.  My heart goes out to those parents.   My heart goes out to the parents who are being told they have no say in what their children are being taught about sex--whether it be gay or straight.

Since I grew up a woman, you can't really pretend that I do not know what it is like to be discriminated against--and hint:  laws do not help.  

Parents in Vermont just discovered that their children are no longer required to say the pledge of allegiance in school.  Hey, that's ok--nobody knows we are a Republic anyways, it will make it easier when we cease to be a sovereign nation, and God is quickly becoming passe.  Communism and God are mutually exclusive.

And the battle continues...

[Molly]

Molly why do you think gays are pedophiles.  Seems the church has their fair share of them and men kissing men happens in many cultures.

IMO most folk have more issues with men gays than Lesbians as with the latter there is no "a*al" stuff and they can still reproduce with sperm donors and will likely still have good maternal instincts.

I didn't say that, did I?  I said the only reasonable person who would like that book, in my opinion, would be a pedophile.  If I tried to teach the neighbor little girl that it was good for women to kiss women on the lips, I'd probably be thrown in jail or sued.

Lesbians--just read a story, two lesbians get together, one has a baby (artificial insemination), then they decide to go to another state to get married, move back to their state and decide not to live together anymore.  Fast forward a year or so, and the one lesbian goes to a gay marriage state to divorce the other with the child and demands custody.  Since the one with the child is not in a state that even recognizes gay marriage, she has to travel to the other state to fight the divorce.  She fights it in both courts.   This goes on and on.  Last I heard, the gay marriage state has awarded the non biological mother full custody.  The child is still very young and I don't get the impression she even knows this woman who has just won custody since they separated when the child was an infant.

But, once again, children don't matter.  All must be sacrificed on the alter of adult rights.

[Molly]

Molly you should answer the questions.  I am not going to post the laws but I am generalizing.

The mainstream use Levitical laws to justify hate for gays but leave off all the rest in the same chapter.

If Jesus can forgive His executors, why not accept the gays?  I am sure Jesus would have dealt with it differently but that is my opinion.

In the same Levitical chapter it talks of adultery too in its various forms yet no one gets literally stoned for that.  Gays are singled out but no one condemns divorce in the same passion and is especially overlooked within their own xian communities.

I do not condone what they do as I am straight yet I really do not know what causes them to be like they are seeing they come from within the xian establishment too.

Prior to the independence here in 1994, the church had influence but now all faiths are treated equal, gays got their rights and we hardly hear about them anymore and no all the teachers are not suddenly teaching gay lifestyle but merely tolerance.

Gays obviously have been with us time immemorial so this is not something new.

well that's a complicated post to answer.  Leviticus is an important book in the Bible.  Nevertheless, we are under grace now, under a 'new' contract (although it's not really new but that's another story).  Jesus stopped them from stoning the Prostitute.  Does that mean that prostitution is a healthy lifestyle that should be promoted?  No.  He said, go and sin no more.  And, anyone that knows anything about prostitution knows that it is exploitative, demeaning, and dangerous.

But, you see, our western culture is slowly being destroyed to the point that nobody even notices it anymore.  

No one is justifying hate.  That is all propaganda.  And, anyone who swallows it is brainwashed.

I worry a lot about the children.

But, here's the plan, you just chip away bit by bit until everything is changed without anyone noticing.  People are first outraged, then they become desensitized.  But, when the totalitarians drop the curtain, believe me, you'll notice.

[Molly]

I don't really want to go to church and find a gay pastor when the Bible speaks against the lifestyle.  I wouldn't want to go downtown and see it looking like Sodom and Gomorrah whether it was gays or straights doing it in the streets.

I see some sort of double standard here. Not only you Molly but the whole church.
Sure the Bible is very clear about homosexuality.
But also about many other things. If gay pastors should be kicked out of church then also the lying, stealing, adultering, etc pastors should be kicked out of church.

A lot of churches do kick them out.  I thought Paul was the first to suggest it.  Turn them over to the destruction of the flesh and all that.

[SeekerSA]

Good post Paul

It is ironic that the if you are gay then you are a pedophile and you are a crack user and you are......

If gays got their "rights" they will fade away like they did here in SA after they got their "rights"

I am speaking on their behalf as the sites where I am also discussing from a hetero view are icky so that you all understand my motives.  I have a good idea what they want and influence in schools is not on the agenda.

My cousin was gay and died of AIDS and came from a Christian family, none of the other cousins are gay in the rest of the extended family.

[Molly]

Parents in Vermont just discovered that their children are no longer required to say the pledge of allegiance in school.  Hey, that's ok--nobody knows we are a Republic anyways, it will make it easier when we cease to be a sovereign nation, and God is quickly becoming passe.  Communism and God are mutually exclusive.

And the battle continues...

What has communism have to do with gays?  Why is it a battle?

You have not even answered the OP questions yet and as per usual you are trying to distract this to suit your "conspiracy POV"

As for the pledge - that is flag worship and here is a Godwin for you.  Rewind to 1937, which other nation was beset by national identity and flags, flags, flags?  

You probably represent the mainstream more here as last time you were not convinced of UR but it does demonstrate intolerance.  You cite random examples but I really am not interested in the lesbian "ownership" rights of a child.  That happens unfairly in hetero relationships too.

Here are the questions again:

1. What does gay marriage directly threaten your marriage/lifestyle?
2. Do you really understand how they think or makes them what they are?

TY

"What does gay marriage directly threaten your marriage/lifestyle?"

I've already explained that.   I'm actually surprised at how this has turned out.  I wasn't expecting the indoctrination of children--that blindsided me.  I don't think anyone was.

"Do you really understand how they think or makes them what they are?"

No more or no less than I understand anyone.  I had a gay friend do the music at my mother's funeral--in a church, no less.  He was a family friend, very talented, and his music comforted me.  However, he did not do it in drag, which would have upset me.  Nor does he do anything in drag, as far as I know.  If he does, he keeps it to himself.

But, see, you are judging me and making assumptions about me without knowing me at all.  That is a typical way to silence enemies of the program.

What has communism have to do with gays?  Why is it a battle?

Communism has to destroy the family.  The family is the strongest unit of a society which is naturally opposed to a collectivist viewpoint---because the children are taught the values of the parents, rather than indoctrinated by the State.

All collectivist, totalitarian states have to take over the indoctrination of the children to be successful.  It takes a [communist] village to raise a child.

Communism also has to destroy God.  There can be no higher authority than the State.

Fascist Germany took another approach.  The family was ok as long as it was German and as long as it was loyal to the Party.  Otherwise, everyone died.

And, the Christians lost their way completely.

[Paul Hazelwood]

All collectivist, totalitarian states have to take over the indoctrination of the children to be successful.  

And of course the fundamentalists Christians want to do just that under the guise of "family values".

[Molly]

All collectivist, totalitarian states have to take over the indoctrination of the children to be successful.  

And of course the fundamentalists Christians want to do just that under the guise of "family values".

Around 1990, some party operatives noticed that there was this huge segment of the population that was apolitical.  So they moved to harness them with all kinds of brainwashing and lies--to get them to vote as one huge block.

So here again, we have collectivism at work.

Well look who those Christians voted in.   And, look at the results.

And, a double bonus, everyone hates Christians, now.


Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.


Remember--Christians invented freedom of religion.

[Molly]

What has communism have to do with gays? 

Because gays are happy to work against God because they think God is against them.

So they are willing recruits in the battle against the churches and against the Christians, and have been used very successfully to that effect.

You do understand that Communism and Christianity don't mix, don't you?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Remember--Christians invented freedom of religion.

Nope,  people who believed in freedom of and from religion did.

[Molly]

Remember--Christians invented freedom of religion.

Nope,  people who believed in freedom of and from religion did.

Well truth be told they really were interested in freedom to interpret the Bible for yourself which is why there are so many protestant sects from the earliest days of our country.

This country started out as a church relocation project.

[rosered]

   The  Gay issue  on a more personal note
 

My Cousin Aaron is gay
 do I love my cousin ? yes !
 he is a wonderful person  , I feel that is what God does judge righteously

 God takes the base /lowest things of this world to confound the wise in their own eyes  , why  dont we judge what is right ?  instead of being judges , everyone is dead  to God till Christ/Life  comes to us  , who is to say when  Christ comes to us /them ?  those awakened to the truth will know  ,  are we supposed to being praying  for all to God who can , will and does make all the difference ,  does one think that high of himself to be as God/ judge  and condemn anyone , without lifting a finger to help ?

 geeezzzz  , the self righteous make me ill  :sigh:...
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren.


He that speaks evil of [his] brother, and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law, and judges the law: but if YOU  judge the law, YOU ARE NOT  a doer of the law, but a judge.

Jam 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who ARE YOU  that judges another?

 what the folks do in private God knows all  hearts and the intent there of !!! I have no desire to   be nosey and judge anyone in private matters

 we are told not to know  anyone by   the flesh anylonger  
 is being gay of the flesh or not ?

that is so controversial of a question in itself
  do I want my Cousin to be saved ?  Yes , I sure do  
 Jesus is in the saving business and we are the  arms , legs and feet and body parts of the Lord [He is the Head /of all authority]  time to get to work  and move  in the direction  the Head wants us to goooooooooo !

[Molly]

I think you are talking Marxism, Jesus was a communist in the true sense of the word, all folk common equal et al. Why even your constitution says something of equality or is that equality conditional? (Refer to the original not the recently amended with under God added - even so which god?)

Nobody has said that equality is conditional, and you know it.

I wonder what Jesus would think about Communist (and Godless because they destroyed all the churches and killed the Christians) Russia.  You think he would approve of the 100 million killed by the Communist dictators?

[Molly]

I am not transfering one behavior in order to justify another, I am saying that the battle that Christians have led people to believe is going on is really a problem of their own doing.

And of course they haven't figured out that it is not the fire they fight that is the problem, it is the GASOLINE they are using to try to put it out.

I really don't get how you can blame one group's behavior on another group.

That's like saying the abusive husband killed his wife because she drove him to it.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The point is molly  is that there shouldn't even be a battle against gays.

There should be a movement to eliminate all social indoctrination in public schools to begin with.

Prayer being taken out of schools was a good move,  lets take what a family should look like out too, and let the families of this country and individuals alone to live those lives outside of government structuring and religious and social pressure.

[Molly]

I would guess in a school, that straight would always outweigh gay folk and that put to a vote, this would not come up at such a tender age.  However if there were other books that showed different endings viz snow white and the handsome prince, then there would be a balance.  Most extremists wanted disney out and fairy tales.  Last time I looked 6 year olds were pre-schoolers and usually these are not state run, at least here they are not.  Here official school starts the year they turn 7.

You didn't listen to what I said.  The parents were blocked from controlling what their children were taught by the teacher's union.  Then they asked to please tell them when these books were going to be read so they could keep their kids out of school that day.  Refused.  So then they took the matter to court and the Judge legislated from the bench that parents have no rights as to what their children are taught.  Now they are appealing to a higher court--as if they had the money and the time to deal with this nonsense.  They should not have to deal with  it.  But that's our brave new world.

FYI this book is approved by the teacher's union for 5 to 8 year olds.  Here they start kindergarten at 5 years old.  The original father who objected and is now suing had his child in kindergarten when this happened.

Obama wants to start them younger in school.  

I read the book to a friend who has a master's degree in education without telling her what it was about.  Halfway through the book her jaw dropped and stayed dropped all the way to the end.  She couldn't believe it.

So you see it is the majority who no longer has any rights.

[Molly]

The point is molly  is that there shouldn't even be a battle against gays.

There should be a movement to eliminate all social indoctrination in public schools to begin with.

Prayer being taken out of schools was a good move,  lets take what a family should look like out too, and let the families of this country and individuals alone to live those lives outside of government structuring and religious and social pressure.

Let's vote with our feet and take all our children out of the public schools where they are just being made dumber by the year anyways.  Our stats are the lowest of any western democracy.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Problem is Molly,  the parents that might take enough interest to consider that, raise good smart kids despite what goes on in the schools anyway.

[SeekerSA]

You didn't listen to what I said.  The parents were blocked from controlling what their children were taught by the teacher's union.  Then they asked to please tell them when these books were going to be read so they could keep their kids out of school that day.  Refused.  So then they took the matter to court and the Judge legislated from the bench that parents have no rights as to what their children are taught.  Now they are appealing to a higher court--as if they had the money and the time to deal with this nonsense.  They should not have to deal with  it.  But that's our brave new world.

They still have the right to change schools - surely not all schools would teach this?

--snip--

Obama wants to start them younger in school.

Citation - check out his website for the truth not the Hannity spin.

I read the book to a friend who has a master's degree in education without telling her what it was about.  Halfway through the book her jaw dropped and stayed dropped all the way to the end.  She couldn't believe it.

So you see it is the majority who no longer has any rights.

No, in a democracy, minority also have rights.  That is why you have a constitution.  The right want a theocracy, look how well that works in Iran.

All it comes down to, you want to impose your beliefs on others.  The atheists anyway say we believe in a sky fairy and will never bow down to a xian agenda.

Social/religious issues should be home taught.  If the schools are turning out crazies, then blame the parents.

I was watching on NBC caught on camera where white kids were beating up on other kids initiation and all, by statistics, 80% (or more as they were all white) of them would be Christian thus the problem lies with the moral values instilled in homes.

Gays are generally kind passive folk but will get riled when you mess with their liberties.

You admitted you do not know really what makes them tick yet you wander off judgmentally no problems thus you are not only a bigot but also a hypocrite.  If what they do is sin, what sin did Jesus not cover?  Being gay is only unpardonable in the eyes of the church no one else.  In 5000 years of recorded history, all attempts to disenfranchise them has not made it go away.

While humankind copulate, gays will be born.