The Holy Scriptures in the Bible appear to imply that humans have no free will or that they have very little free will if they do have any at all.
"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9
"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22
If God has free will and humans are created in the image of God then could humans also have a form of free will?
I feel foolish asking these questions since my mind is only finite and God's mind is absolute infinite; but if God does not have free will then humans would also not have free will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will
Quote
The argument from free will (also called the paradox of free will, or theological fatalism) contends that omniscience and free will are incompatible, and that any conception of God that incorporates both properties is therefore inherently contradictory. The argument may focus on the incoherence of people having free will, or else God himself having free will. These arguments are deeply concerned with the implications of predestination, and often seem to echo the standard argument against free will.
Seeker...this isn't a banned topic per se but it has caused much strife on the boards in the past. People can give their 2cent on free will in creative ways without pushing hot buttons. But, i think a free will post will be highly discouraged.
Man choseshispath,God guides his steps.
Sounds like an illusion of free will.
Free will that has many limitations like laws.
As Shawn said.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/free-willall-sovereign-and-the-trinity-discussions/msg102846/#msg102846
Blessings.
The paradox of free will and predestination is a mystery seen through a glass darkly. That is why it is foolishness to set absolutes in either direction. As we live, we trust and choose and exhort and heed and sin and repent and overcome..... and all things things involve the exercise of our wills, if we were not free to choose we would not be exhorted and would hav no need to heed. To whatever extent we are predestined, we are not included in the foreknowledge of it, so, if we fail to take heed, I would guess we are appointed to do so- but I would not encourage anyone to take a careless view of that.
"Examine yourselves to see whether you be in the faith"
"Today if you hear my voice harden not your hearts"
"I am He that trieth the reins and the hearts"
"Therefore repent, or I will come quickly and foght against you with the sword of my mouth"
"The word of God is living and active and sharper thn any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow, and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.....For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."
Peter says we are ..... "elect(chosen, predestined) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: 1Pe 1:2
So there is an interesting thought as to where the dividing line is between predetermined action and the foreknowledge of that action and the will, as three points in a triangle, or three dimensions of the truth.
I have been censured a couple times for discussing this, but I think I have been misinterpreted as having one view or the other. I don't, I don't think anyone sees it clearly enough to pontificate on it like some people do, so I like to ask questions that seem to mess with either absolute, in order to encourage open mindedness and a softer rhetoric- since I often hear people making harsh statements about the spirituallity of anyone who doesnt see it just as they do......
But really, I shouldn t say anything, or exhort the saints to seek understanding and to discuss these things even handedly and in a spirit of fellowship rather than a spirit of condescension or conflict, after all.....we just can't help ourselves
God made us do it. :laugh2: :rolllol: :pointlaugh:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 11, 2012, 08:35:29 AM
I have been censured a couple times for discussing this, but I think I have been misinterpreted as having one view or the other.
Even though moderation concerns are to be discussed in private, just quickly; If this is addressing what I've personally said, it's not whether one takes one side or the other. Everyone's welcome to their own view. The issue is just as it says in the expectations section, if it keeps getting brought up, and
especially continually using the terms (which seem to enflame too many people :thinking:) it causes problems and is discouraged. Any discussion of the concepts is encouraged to be :gguitar:
creative.
:Peace2:
Nah, I wasn't talking about you or any particular moderator at all James, I was just talking about various responses to my posts on the board when it draws near this subject matter(which I generally avoid). I have a healthy respect for free will in God's purpose and plan and I think there is some general opposition to that. Then again, I realize that overall all things work according to the counsel of His will and His ultimate kind intention for mankind. To me it is no big deal, just a topic like any other, and I don't get all the heavy breathing about it. :o)
However, if there is going to be a thread called "the free will debate" on the board, I hope "creative" doesnt mean "you can talk about it as long as you don't say anything" :laughhand:
:)
It means this;
Quote from: jabcat on September 11, 2012, 08:41:48 AM
especially continually using the terms
We're trying to handle an ultra-sensitive subject with some wisdom, flexibility, and forebearance, but for sure, an easier way would be to just censor any mention at all and lock any threads that did anything more than hint at it - which is pretty much what we did for awhile after we buried the bodies.
I guess another option would be - let history repeat itself and let's have a free-for-all and let everybody bash each other upside the head.
Nah... :bigGrin:
p.s. Honestly, most of the folks that would be battering others are gone, and this topic is one of the things that was involved in some of their leaving. Most now could probably handle it, but I don't think we're brave enough to test it. :flowerred:
for some reason, repeated use of the terms "free will" and "all sovereign" are like putting a lighted firecracker in the seat of some peoples' britches. :myahoo:
I was sitting here trying to figure why that might be, trying to compare it to a slang name for a group of people or whatever. However, one thing that occurred to me is, I wonder if one reason many in the UR community gag at one of the terms is, so many ET'ers use it to "explain" why most of humanity "chooses" to go to hell forever. But then the converse wouldn't explain the other side of it, so :dunno2:.
------
LOL, thinking of this some more. Maybe part of the converse is, many don't want their power or control "taken away". I've heard that old phrase "God didn't make robots"... well, like so many others, it's a complicated issue, another one I can lay in bed in the wee hours thinking about. :lazy: That whole "we have nothing and can do nothing apart from God", yet He expects us to make choices and decisions, yet we need His strength to do anything good or right (or isn't it "no longer us that live but Him that lives in us"?), yet......
OK, I'm probably going to be the cause of getting this thread locked :laugh2: (maybe not, I didn't use the "terms" once :)
As I hav said many times before, it is so complicated we can only see it through a glass darkly :o)
Shades of understanding, facets reflecting glimpses.....
Mysteries shrouded in paradox
IMO all so that God can see which of us will grow wise enough to sit back and humbly say, "Well, I am really not entirely sure about that, but this is what I think brother(or sister)" :o)
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
(1Co 13:2)
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. (Jas 3:17-18)
And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace]; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong.
He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],(2Ti 2:24-25)
Personally, I would like to see an area reserved where those who have a measure of grace and self control could talk about anything edifying as long as they do so in a polite and considerate manner. The only way in would be to commit to sharing, not preaching; never getting personal; always being respectful of another persons different opinion; etc.
Knowing when to break off a discussion that is moving from edifying debate into dissension and strife is, according to Paul, the evidence that someone is serving of the Lord rather than their own ego.
We cou7ld call it
Wisdom From Above
or
Friendly Debates
or
Eaglesway's Wishful Thinking :laugh:
Good word. I agree.
As for this part
Quote from: eaglesway on September 12, 2012, 07:45:58 AM
Eaglesway's Wishful Thinking :laugh:
:) Maybe not as wishful thinking as you might think; it's certainly something that's been toyed with. I've thought about having a "free will week" or something like that, but you're right, it would almost certainly be in the Established Members section. Well, well, well, what to do, what to do... ever see the cartoon of the little guy walking around and around in a circle wringing his hands and wearing a path in the floor? :laughing7: The little fellow probably won't be able to decide tonight LOL.
For me and in my opinion, we all have the freedom to choose, but when it comes to understanding what it means to surrender ourselves to the Father, it is surrendering our freedom to choose to believe what is righteous and what is unrighteous. We do not completely understand all that is unrighteous yet (see through a glass dimly) and our beliefs are based upon what we do understand up to any given point in our own lives. We are to wait for Him, through the Spirit to reveal what is unrighteous to us and by that we increase in the knowledge of what is evil for the purpose of understanding the knowledge of what is good, so that we can see Him "AS HE IS"
I believe we are to speak the words of Christ, "Not my will but yours be done", it is always the willingness to admit we might be wrong in what we understand at any given point in time.
We have free will. So does God. If they conflict, guess who wins?
Just like all those that lived on earth and exercised their free will to mock or deny God, their free will to do that will not force God to lose to Satan. They will be irrestibly drawn (dragged) to Jesus.
Ded,
The beauty of all of this is that nobody wins. Everybody agrees.
Father doesn't want sinners in heaven and sinners choose hell.
Scholary ET logic :doh:
The beauty is that nobody wins??
Love wins. God wins. We all win.
Ded, I'm hoping you noticed my post is dripping with sarcasm :dsunny:
AMEN!!!...foolish satan...that thought God's desire to make man in our image..could be thwarted!!!! Foolishness of youth..that Eve thought 'ifn ye eat of it
ye shall not die"
the foolishness of the cross!![1 Cor 1;18 For since in the wisdom of God the world through it's wisdom did not know Him,
God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who beleive
BUT WE PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED!!!
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom,and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength!!!!!
Thread name change lol.
(some good thoughts and concepts presented today :thumbsup:)
Sorry I didn't notice you grinning while you were typing or I would have noticed.
Crazy me, I kept thinking, "doesn't he mean just the opposite of what he said?" :laughing7:
A Prayer in Times of Controversy
Gracious Father, have mercy on your children in disputes. We are sorry for any root of pride or fear of
man or lack of insight that influences our stance in the controversy before us. We confess that we are not
pure in ourselves. Even as we strive to persuade one another, we stand in need of a merciful Advocate.
We are sinners. We are finite and fallible.
On both sides of the matter at hand, we take refuge together in the glorious gospel of justification by
faith alone through grace. We magnify Jesus Christ, our Savior and King for all he has done to make us
his own. We are a thankful people even in our conflict. We are broken and humble to think that we
would be loved and forgiven and accepted by an infinitely holy God.
Forbid, O Lord, that our spirit in this struggle would be one of hostility or ill will toward anyone.
Deliver us from every form of debate that departs from love or diminishes truth. Grant, Father, as
Francis Schaeffer pleaded in his last days, that our disagreements would prove to be golden
opportunities to show the world how to love – not by avoiding conflicts, but by how we act in them.
Show us, O God, the relationship between doctrine and devotion, between truth and tenderness, between
Biblical faithfulness and Biblical unity, between standing on the truth and standing together. Let none of
us be unteachable, or beyond correction. May the outcome of our dispute be clearer vision of your glory
and grace and truth and wisdom and power and knowledge.
By your Spirit, grant that the result of all our arguments be deeper humility, more dependence on mercy,
sweeter fellowship with Jesus, stronger love in our common life, more radical obedience to the
commands of our King, more authentic worship, and a greater readiness and eagerness to lay down our
lives to finish the Great Commission.
In all this, Father, our passion is that you would be glorified through Jesus Christ. Amen.
Found this prayer as an introduction to a presentation on the issue of free will and predestination. IMO this is the mind of Christ and the will of God expressed succinctly in the spirit of reconciliation by a mature believer, and I havent even read the paper yet to see if i agree with his conclusions or not.
Amen!!! :thumbsup:
If we all could keep the number one thing in mind that shows we are the disciples of Christ, which is to love God and each other then there wouldn't be any conflicks, hostility, strife, arguing. To me, to have these fights over any discussions shows a lack of love for our fellow man. I know we all have different points of view and I think it is good for all to share them, that is how we learn. By the way, this is just my point of view. :girlheart:
CHB
Amen to the beautiful prayer. and thank you brother for sharing it with us :HeartThrob: in love
So often at night as I go to bed, there are many questions I ask God. Like why does he not just appear to each & every individual human being in a personal way & explain his purpose for our existence on planet Earth.
If all human beings could have a personal visitation from God 3 or 4 times in a lifetime, would that not go a long way to reduce the conflict between each & every individual human being? We would all then believe in the same Deity, we would all believe pretty similar things about issues that we presently spend so much time fighting over & often-time with more than just words.
We have a Bible that is imperfectly translated as it has been passed down to us from generation to generation, and we have no really authentic "first written" document of original ancient Hebrew or the original pen handed documents directly from the Apostles or Christ himself. Yet we take it for granted in believing their contents are true & accurate.
We have all these books handed down to us which we hope contains a reasonably close mindset what God intended for us to believe. But instead we often argue about which books are really the ones God intended to be his Holy writ, and in the end it was a bunch of men who got together to do this, and even they squabbled over that.
So I ask God every night to please, just show up on Earth & put an end to all the confusion, but every morning I wake up & everything is still the same, or worse.
One of our major sins (myself included) is that deep down, we don't believe
and/or trust that God is doing things the way that WE think He should.
We think, "How can this be a part of God's plan or why doesn't God do this or that"
It was Job's mistake. Job and we do not understand why God does the things He does.
We SURE don't understand how (except to say by his power)
Questioning God is a lack of trust that God is doing and carrying out his PERFECT will.
and yes, our prayer affects him in the sense that God knew before the foundation of the earth what and when you're prayer would be. God told the 3 wise guys that "comforted" Job, "I will have my servant Job pray for you and because of that prayer I will spare your lives."
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 20, 2012, 04:35:03 PM
One of our major sins (myself included) is that deep down, we don't believe
and/or trust that God is doing things the way that WE think He should.
We think, "How can this be a part of God's plan or why doesn't God do this or that"
I agree.
But otoh it's has a postive side too.
Example, the 6 year old kid of your best friend goes blind because of some weird infection.
You ask "Why God? Why?"
Yeah, you don't really trust God in that matter. That's not good.
But otoh you show compassion for the kid. And that, imo, is a good thing.
So perhaps things are not that black and white???
Yep. Jobs friends didn't show him any compassion.
It would be like telling the blinded 6 year olds parents
"Oh yeah, God blinded him because you 2 are living in sin."
Totally wrong, uncalled for and unloving.
WE NEED TO FIND A WAY OF JUSTIFYING GOD SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND. fAR BE IT FROM GOD NOT TO DO THE RIGHT THING. FOR HE IS
A GOD OF JUSTICE AND MERCY IT IS FOR THE VERY REASON OF UNBELEIF AND TRUST IN HIM AND HIS JUSTICE AND MERCY
THAT ADAM AND EVE ATE FROM THE TOKOGAE. SATAN ASSERTED THAT GOD'S JUDGEMENT WASN'T RIGHT IN THIS MATTER.
PUT THE BLAME WHERE IT BELONGS..LISTENING TO THE LIAR HAS LED ALL FALLEN ADAM INTO A PAINFUL AND HURTFUL WAY
TRUE ;GOD SET UP THIS EXERCIZE IN HIS WISDOM..AND LIMITED THE EFFECTS OF THIS DEATH IN MERC. PAINFUL LESSON
THAT IT HAS BEEN..... ETERNAL GOOD FOR ALL OF US WILL COME OF IT..ENDURANCE MERCY HOPE AND HUMILITY,RIGHTEOUSNESSLOVE AND ALL
GOOD FRUIT WILL COME OF IT FOREVER. THE EXPIERENCE OF EVIL HAS BEEN A BITTER THING. BUT GOD WILL USE IT FOR THE GOOD[THUS
TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL] OF THOSE WHO LOVE HIM[ALL RAISED UP IN CHRIST/SON OF HIS LOVE]
THANK GOD THE WAY TO TOL WAS BARRED AND ADAM AND EVE DIDN'T EAT OF IT,TOO..AND WE REMAIN IN THIS IMPERFECT HORRIBLE
STATE ETERNALLY. I THANK HIM THAT HE HAS SHORTENED THE DAYS OF THIS EXPIERENCE IN MERCY TO SAVE ALL FLESH/ADAM AND
LIMITED THE DEATH SENTENCE DURATION..AND GRACEFULLY GIVEN THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE[UNDESERVEDLY]
OUR WAR WAS WON BEFORE IT WAS EVER FOUGHT,OUR ETERNAL SALVATION ASSURED BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH LAID.
COMFORT YE, COMFORT YE MY PEOPLE....DO NOT GIVE OUT WHEN YOU ARE DISCIPLINED OF GOD..GOD DISCIPLINES THOSE HE LOVES
THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD IS JUDGED..THAT HIS WORKS ARE EVIL[WHO CAN NOT AGREE THIS IS A GREIVOUS EXPIERENCE]
ISAAIH 51;3 THE LORD WILL SURELY COMFORT ZION AND HAVE COMPASSION ON ALL HER RUINS, HE WILL MAKE HER DESERTS LIKE EDEN
HER WASTELANDS LIKE THE GARDEN OF THE LORD JOY AND GLADNESS WILL BE FOUND IN HER THANKSGIVING AND THE SOUND
OF SINGING
LISTEN TO ME MY PEOPLE HEAR ME MY NATION THE LAW WILL GO OUT FROM ME, MY JUSTICE WILL BECOME A LIGHT TO THE NATIONS
MY RIGHTEOUSNESS DRAWS NEAR SPEEDILY MY SALVATION IS ON THE WAY AND MY ARM WILL BRING JUSTICE TO THE NATIONS
..........V11 THE RANSOMED OF THE LORD WILL RETURN THEY WILL ENTER ZION WITH SINGING EVERLASTING JOY WILL CROWN THEIR HEADS
GLADNESS AND JOY WILL OVERTAKE THEM AND SORROW AND SIGHING WILL FLEE AWAY
I EVEN I AM HE THAT COMFORTS YOU.........
AWAKE AWAKE! RISE UP O JERUSALEM YOU WHO HAVE DRUNK FROM THE HAND OF THE LORD HIS CUP OF WRATH[SPEND ALL OUR DAYS
IN HIS WRATH WHEN WE SUFFER EVIL..FOR WE CHOSE THAT WHICH DID NOT PLEASE HIM[ALL IN ADAM] YOU WHO HAVE DRAINED TO IT'S DREGS
THE GOBLET THAT MADE MEN STAGGER..................V 22 SEE I HAVE TAKEN OUT OF YOUR HAND THE CUP THAT MADE YOU STAGGER
FROM THAT CUP THE GOBLET OF MY WRATH YOU WILL NEVER DRINK AGAIN
WEEPING ENDURETH THROUGH THE NIGHT..BUT JOY COMETH IN THE MORNING TO US A SON IS GIVEN[THE WOMAN SHALL BE KEPT SAFE THROUGH
CHILDBIRTH]
Exactly guys ..
what helps to know is , two things as we also undergo the baptism of death [ the cross ] and recive the same cup of suffering in Christ , the Lords words are ''if this cup could pass let it be but not my will but yours be done FATHER
and as we are dying to the world we in turn say forgive them FATHER for they know not what they do , that is loving your enemies and the prayer [supplication] and dying to self for your you are also following Jesus and taking up your cross [same cross] laying down your life for your friends as well as the enemies of the cross of Christ ,blood of attonment , the innocent sacrifice for sin for the guilty = grace of God
Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ
I know when you DIE the suffering ENDS and the joy comes in the morning [new day dawned ]
Like most folks here, I have done laps around the free will vs determinism debate, and here is my take:
FIRST, God/YHVH/Jesus is absolutely sovereign. That is basic, foundational. :dsunny:
Second, we have free will - BUT - from God's point-of-view, it's like, "Yeah, I told you so..." :declare:He knew all along, but [I know this from my own experience with Him] He also waits with expectation to see what we will do. :gimmefive:No, it does not sound consistent, and it's all too easy to say that free will is an illusion, or that God is not really fully in control. :footmouth:It's really hard to get your mind around the whole thing, just as it is so difficult to wrap your mind around God's multi-dimensionality, or the seven Spirits of God + the Father + the Son = a ninefold Godhead, a trinity of trinities. :dunno2:I think of free will as a delimited "wriggle room" given to us by God, with the ultimate outcome predetermined. :Chinscratch:
Let me illustrate. If you're fond of time-travel stories, as I am, a big part of them lies in the temporal conundrums involved. Characters get involved in situations which defy logic, but there they are, so often a choice that you've made/are making/are going to make, in a loop that you can not escape from. :doh: Or think of driving down a highway, and ahead you see one of those billboards which hold two messages, one seen from the left, the other seen from the right (they use louvers). As you approach, the sign reads "Free Will - What's the Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything?," but after you pass and look back, it reads "Forty-Two - Told You So!" :doh: :doh:
In short, I think it's a POV thing, something our minds in this life can't quite grasp. :Peace2:
The thread is locked. Let's move on to other topics please. Thanks.