In the parable of the son who took his inheritance and spent it wildly, who was the elder son.
In the sense of our spiritual understanding, who does the elder son represent?
Elder = first born = one with authority = one that recieve the inheritance
Elder son is Israel.....
:2c:
I reason that the elder son in the religious system, its called the church[not the church as the body of Christ] but what is understood as "church" or the assemblies that get together on a Sunday.
Israel is a religious system too. And it's older. If "church" is the eldest son who/what is the younger son?
I think Rich man an Lazarus is about the same thing.
The rich man had purple clothes. Leadership.
But obviously lost it because Lazarus (gentile imo) took his place in Abrahams bossom.
Israel is a religious system and it is older than the christian religion, still they have not heard the call to come out or perhaps Israel has. The elder son is organized religion, I would presume that includes Israel. Many are called but few are chosen, the younger son is the chosen.
those who condemn their brother and are upset with their Father's will to provide undeserved mercy are the elder son
Righteousness,Justice and MERCY...three really important spiritual qualities that remain..Just as FAITH,HOPE,LOVE Remain
FAITH IN HIS RIGHTEOUSNES...HOPE IN HIS JUSTICE..AND LOVE IN HIS MERCY
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 04, 2011, 03:20:53 PM
those who condemn their brother and are upset with their Father's will to provide undeserved mercy are the elder son
Will that work the other way around as well?
That in UR, if the elder brother gets saved. But the elder brother is already deemed as Gods son, so are they already saved? in the parable :dontknow:
tt
are we not all Gods children? Have we not all one Father? One Lord One Faith One baptism, for from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2011, 09:26:17 AM
Elder = first born = one with authority = one that recieve the inheritance
Elder son is Israel.....
:2c:
And also the Law [versus Grace], And also Adam/Eve [versus second Adam--flesh versus spirit]
But the elder shall serve the younger.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 04, 2011, 07:25:01 PM
tt
are we not all Gods children? Have we not all one Father? One Lord One Faith One baptism, for from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things
John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Jesus spoke the parable of the elder brother. My question is who is the elder brother?. The pattern of scripture reveals that those who rely on Abraham as their father and look to condemn the gentiles or e.g the blind man that Jesus healed are lost. But in this parable the father says to the son. "son you are ever with me and all things are yours to enjoy"
So who does God regard as son, but yet is someone who is jealous and angry that the younger brother is receiving gifts, yet has done nothing but lived a sinful life.
I said could it be the other way around. That the older brother represents saved beleivers, while the younger brother represents Israel, who lived a sinful life. Jesus aid the first shall be last and the last shall be first. So maybe Israel who are first end up being in Gods kingdom last, but beleivers who are last, end up in Gods kingdom first.
Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2011, 08:13:44 PMI said could it be the other way around. That the older brother represents saved beleivers, while the younger brother represents Israel, who lived a sinful life. Jesus aid the first shall be last and the last shall be first. So maybe Israel who are first end up being in Gods kingdom last, but beleivers who are last, end up in Gods kingdom first.
TT,
The older brother was first (born) Israel.
But he ran away and found peace after he returned.
The younger brother always was a peace and so was there before the older one returned.
That said.... I don't understand it because the younger son (church) is at least as corrupted as the older son (Isreal)
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 04, 2011, 07:25:01 PM
tt
are we not all Gods children? Have we not all one Father? One Lord One Faith One baptism, for from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things
That is interesting and bears further study. I believe that's likely talking about believers. There are multiple scrips showing not all are of the faith, and Jesus told some "you are of your father the devil".
P.S. Those that are saved in this lifetime (and in the time to come) are only saved by grace. Another reinforcement for that was read this morning - good scrip; "..through the grace of the Lord Jesus we are believing, to be saved..." IMO, even believing is a gift.
AFA the OP, interesting comments. I don't argue the Israel piece of it. But my personal reaction is, that elder brother can be me - if I'm sitting around with my arms crossed, being critical, judgmental, not being loving and helpful, etc. - in general, having a bad attitude. :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2011, 08:31:15 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2011, 08:13:44 PMI said could it be the other way around. That the older brother represents saved beleivers, while the younger brother represents Israel, who lived a sinful life. Jesus aid the first shall be last and the last shall be first. So maybe Israel who are first end up being in Gods kingdom last, but beleivers who are last, end up in Gods kingdom first.
TT,
The older brother was first (born) Israel.
But he ran away and found peace after he returned.
The younger brother always was a peace and so was there before the older one returned.
That said.... I don't understand it because the younger son (church) is at least as corrupted as the older son (Isreal)
The younger son is the ekklesia, called out ones, saved by grace.
They would also be Gentiles.
I see that, too, Jabcat, that not all are of the brethren.
Though they talk it they do not walk it.
Anyone feel like having beers tonight?
Coffee and cigarettes?
Hollywood movie or just a little R-rated TV?
Some cynical reading or conspiracy theories?
Gossip, witchcraft and mind control?
And the ubiquitous pornography that just "happened" to pop up while searching the internet for "something else."
Quote from: jabcat on August 04, 2011, 08:44:34 PM
P.S. Those that are saved in this lifetime (and in the time to come) are only saved by grace. Another reinforcement for that was read this morning - good scrip; "..through the grace of the Lord Jesus we are believing, to be saved..." IMO, even believing is a gift.
AFA the OP, interesting comments. I don't argue the Israel piece of it. But my personal reaction is, that elder brother can be me - if I'm sitting around with my arms crossed, being critical, judgmental, not being loving and helpful, etc. - in general, having a bad attitude. :2c:
" But my personal reaction is, that elder brother can be me -
if I'm sitting around with my arms crossed, being critical, judgmental, not being loving and helpful, etc. - in general, having a bad attitude. :2c:"
Glory! Amen.
Quote from: jabcat on August 04, 2011, 08:37:47 PM
That is interesting and bears further study. I believe that's likely talking about believers. There are multiple scrips showing not all are of the faith, and Jesus told some "you are of your father the devil."
Glory! Amen.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2011, 08:31:15 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2011, 08:13:44 PMI said could it be the other way around. That the older brother represents saved beleivers, while the younger brother represents Israel, who lived a sinful life. Jesus aid the first shall be last and the last shall be first. So maybe Israel who are first end up being in Gods kingdom last, but beleivers who are last, end up in Gods kingdom first.
TT,
The older brother was first (born) Israel.
But he ran away and found peace after he returned.
The younger brother always was a peace and so was there before the older one returned.
That said.... I don't understand it because the younger son (church) is at least as corrupted as the older son (Isreal)
That's the accepted story, I can reason that, because of the context of Israel being born first. But Israel in part rejected the messiah, Paul went to the gentiles.
I think there is a scripture that says they the tax collectors go in before you.
The believers are covered by the blood, accepted the messiah and the messiah leads them to godliness, to the kingdom of God.
But Israel who reject the messiah are not living in Gods kingdom, but the scriptures say that eventually all Israel will be saved, that the gentiles lead them to jealousy.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 04, 2011, 09:01:25 PM
if I'm sitting around with my arms crossed, being critical, judgmental, not being loving and helpful, etc. - in general, having a bad attitude. :2c:"
Glory! Amen.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 04, 2011, 09:06:20 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 04, 2011, 08:37:47 PM
That is interesting and bears further study. I believe that's likely talking about believers. There are multiple scrips showing not all are of the faith, and Jesus told some "you are of your father the devil."
Glory! Amen.
micah and David, an old song from when I was a child comes to mind; Remind Me Dear Lord
Nothing good have i done
to deserve God's own Son
I'm not worthy of the scars
in His hands
yet he chose the road to Calvary
to die in my stead
why He loved me i can't understand
(bluegrass) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdT5BK-eqVY
Blessings, James.
"to die in my stead"
That is a lie from the bowels of satan.
While He did die for us in was BY NO MEANS INSTEAD OF US.
We must go to the cross, pick it up and follow Him.
He is the pattern.
glad you liked it :laughing7:
though i understand what you're saying, another way to look at that is, He did die so you wouldn't be dead forever - either literally, or spiritually ("in your trespasses and sins"). it was His resurrection that conquered death for us.
but I'm not looking for an argument. i think there's still a blessing to be had in the overall message of the song. if anyone doesn't like it, that's ok.
That phrase can not stand alone.
It is the exact same technique used of the serpent all the way back to Genesis.
Praise ye the LORD. Sing to the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
--Psa 149:1
2Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
3Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
4For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
5Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
I agree they are not part of the family yet, but in Gods eyes I'd say they are since He sees outside of time. All in All, Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only but that of the whole world. And this is the message of Reconcilliation, God was reconcilling the world to Himself and not counting their tresspasses against them.
He is the Father of All is He not?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuFnQqkLG5M&feature=related
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 04, 2011, 10:04:39 PM
I agree they are not part of the family yet, but in Gods eyes I'd say they are since He sees outside of time. All in All, Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only but that of the whole world. And this is the message of Reconcilliation, God was reconcilling the world to Himself and not counting their tresspasses against them.
He is the Father of All is He not?
yeah. They just don't know it, yet.
God is moving heaven and earth for me right now. I have told the atheists I am praying, something I normally would not do [that is, tell them]. They are scoffing at me, making fun of my prayer even though they themselves would benefit if my prayer were answered, even though the prayer is being answered to their amazement--still they will not believe. they are a stiff necked group.
Without the training I have received on this board, I would be beside myself right now.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 04, 2011, 09:41:09 PM
"to die in my stead"
That is a lie from the bowels of satan.
While He did die for us in was BY NO MEANS INSTEAD OF US.
We must go to the cross, pick it up and follow Him.
He is the pattern.
Amen! :thumbsup:
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 04, 2011, 10:04:39 PM
I agree they are not part of the family yet, but in Gods eyes I'd say they are since He sees outside of time. All in All, Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only but that of the whole world. And this is the message of Reconcilliation, God was reconcilling the world to Himself and not counting their tresspasses against them.
He is the Father of All is He not?
Yes!
Also the story ends abruptly, with the elder son outside the banquet, with the Father inviting him in. We don't know if he goes in or not.
It's not a request.
Read it as a command.
Follow me — and they immediately dropped their nets.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 04, 2011, 11:20:11 PM
Also the story ends abruptly, with the elder son outside the banquet, with the Father inviting him in. We don't know if he goes in or not.
So I'm telling you that her sins, as many as they are, have been forgiven, and that's why she has shown such great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven loves little."
Lk 7:47
In that time the elder brother got twice the inheritance, one of the reasons was that he also gets twice the responsiblity. Including that he was supposed to go after the lost younger brother, and even die to bring him back. He was an extension of the father, he was the standard bearer so the father could stay at home but he would go out in the name of the father, wearing the family ring which was his image.
"Died In My Stead?" has been split off from this topic, with some of the prior posts relabeled for there.
That way we can keep the two threads running within this one, separate.
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2011, 08:52:34 AM
"Died In My Stead?" has been split off from this topic, with some of the prior posts relabeled for there.
That way we can keep the two threads running within this one, separate.
Point taken. This was about the elder son.
I think the other one's got potential though, and wanted to see it keep going. :thumbsup:
So then begin a thread of your thoughts. :bigGrin:
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 05, 2011, 12:31:46 AM
In that time the elder brother got twice the inheritance, one of the reasons was that he also gets twice the responsiblity.
I wonder if it's even more than twice.
The elder son got his inheritance and went away and spend it all. I wonder what he got after he returned.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2011, 09:32:54 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 05, 2011, 12:31:46 AM
In that time the elder brother got twice the inheritance, one of the reasons was that he also gets twice the responsiblity.
I wonder if it's even more than twice.
The elder son got his inheritance and went away and spend it all. I wonder what he got after he returned.
Luk 15:12 and the younger of them said to the father, Father, give me the portion of the substance falling to me , and he divided to them the living.
Luk 15:13 `And not many days after, having gathered all together, the younger son went abroad to a far country, and there he scattered his substance, living riotously;
Mat 22:14 For many are the called, this I believe is religion, the denominations and sects.....yet few are the chosen." These are those with ears to hear.