.

[Lamentation]

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[WhiteWings]

Ho do you or they know they are saved?

Matthew 7:22-24
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

[Kimberlaina]

It's almost as if the reality of ET is what makes people's salvation so important to them.  Imagine if someone would come and tell you that you had had terminal cancer and were only alive because someone miraculously cured you.  It would become almost fun to talk about having cancer because it would become part of your narrative and because you knew it had a happy ending.  Ironically, those are "saved" are often those who never lived with the actual belief that they are going to hell; they may have lived terrible lives, but if they really turned around, they only lived under condemnation for a very short time or perhaps never.  Again, it is like finding out that you *had* cancer, didn't know it, and are now miraculously cured.

The people tormented by ET are the ones who have really sensitive consciences, who struggle with faith, or who struggle with sin.  Unfortunately it is often humble people just trying their best to have a relationship with God.

[Texas Son]

James 3:1 "Let not many {of you} become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment."

As I've studied UR, this Scripture keeps sticking in my mind. What judgment will those, (of which I was until recently), that teach of a terrifyingly cruel God incur? As a teacher I always depended on the traditions of man for my concept of God. Hell was never questioned.

Now I shudder to think what those well meaning teacher will face when they come before the judgment seat of the God of infinite love. Weeping and gnashing of the teeth perhaps?

[firstborn888]

Something that just crossed my mind today :JCThink:. A lot of ET teachers and ET believers that I know of, were saved. In other words, they lived completely ungodly lives, and the were led to the Lord. In what they believe, they themselves were destined for Eternal Torment. So, not only are they not bothered, so to speak, by the idea of others going to hell. They're not bothered by the idea that God would've sent them there too... and deservedly so.

I had a long conversation recently sharing UR with a dear friend  (she's ET) from my early days in Christ. She was an abused child and very troubled teen who God miraculously transformed. After talking some more about her youthful pain/abuse and desperation I asked her if she realized the Lord did not think any different about her 5 seconds after her conversion than he did 5 seconds before, and that the difference was in her, not in Him.

Then I pointed out - what if she was in a car wreck or something moments before she converted? Would that mean her lifelong intimate friendship with God and eternity with him would be non-existent and she would spend eternity in hell - even though he KNEW how it would have turned out if she had lived a few more moments?

Hopefully I made her think...

[WhiteWings]

Ironically, those are "saved" are often those who never lived with the actual belief that they are going to hell; they may have lived terrible lives, but if they really turned around, they only lived under condemnation for a very short time or perhaps never.  Again, it is like finding out that you *had* cancer, didn't know it, and are now miraculously cured.

The people tormented by ET are the ones who have really sensitive consciences, who struggle with faith, or who struggle with sin.  Unfortunately it is often humble people just trying their best to have a relationship with God.

:thumbsup:
Perhaps many of those who feel saved are putting themselfs above 95% of other people and therefore are sinners too....?

[Texas Son]

The Calvinist teach Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) is all a person needs. I am not a Calvinist, but that did make sense to me until recently.

I'm not sure if Sola Scriptura has it's foundation in Roman Catholism, but it would make sense in the fact that they tried to suppress knowledge so that the church hierarchy could have power over the masses.

The "deserted island" scenario that you brought up Brian would probably be the fate of anyone who had the Bible alone. It is interesting how resistant the church has been to teach first century history. The historians that wrote of the wars of the Jewish people and the fall of Jerusalem add much depths that I never had towards understanding certain versus of Scripture. Imagine getting the Works of Josepheus and a Greek/Hebrew concordance along with that Bible in the deserted island. Could you with those tools create a different vision of our final destination?

This prompts another question: Where is the Holy Spirit in this scenario? Doesn't the Spirit reveal the true meaning of Scripture to our hearts? Is it for lack of prayer that wisdom, understanding and knowledge is lacking?

[jabcat]

Some, including myself, believe that as God veils and reveals, it is somehow part of His plan to do so in His own good time, and to whom He pleases.  I remember the scripture about "it is the glory of God to conceal a matter"...Martin Zender, for one, believes the ET belief is part of the "great delusion" the Bible mentions  :dontknow:.  Anyway, many can know God, love Him, serve Him, and still believe in ET.  Some may somehow need to believe in ET, to be where and how God wants them, at that time.  On the other hand, some may have to have the revelation of UR to really be free to love Him and serve Him...again, to whom and when, as He wills.

IMO, it's s/w the same as "why do we preach"?  So those God chooses at that time through the declaration, may hear and believe.  Why would we share UR as the Spirit leads us?  Obedience (I Tim 4:11..charge these things and teach [Jesus, Savior of all, especially those believing]), as well as it will be God's time for someone who hears one of our witnesses, to be unveiled...and you or I may be the messenger of those glad tidings, to that particular person, at God's particular time.

So.....IMO, as we walk in the Spirit, led by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is working, teaching, bringing about the will of the Father.  Maybe just not always exactly as we would expect or envision, when, or how.  But scripture states God does His good pleasure, and there is a season for every purpose under heaven.   

My understanding ATT (at this time :-).  God's blessing, James.

[WhiteWings]

I'm pretty much convinced that severe judgments like weeping and gnashing of teeth, are in regard to those who deny the divinity of Jesus. ET is a theology/doctrine/dogma. So is UR, Annihilationism, Calvinism, Arminianism, Prederism etc. None of these doctrines in and of themselves take anything away from Christ being the only way to the Father.

Now the thought that just crossed my mind is this: I heard the analogy that if there was someone who was stranded on an island, who knew nothing about the Bible, and one washed up on shore, that person after reading it, could very likely become a Christian. However, it's very unlikely that he'd become a [insert name of cult here].

I don't agree because Bible translations are cult books. It will make a great difference if KJV or YLT washed up on shore.
KJV will still be dry with all the fire in it  :laughing7:
Being all alone indeed has teh advantage you won't hear BBQ speeches. But the disadvantage is that you get no positive input either. How many will figure out fire might be something different than real fire?

And likewise, what would his belief in hell be?

ET or annihilate are the most obvious IMO

And I have a very strong notion that every single non-English mainstream translation of the Bible says the equivalent of "eternal punishment" "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" et al, in whatever language it happens to be in.

It is so in Duth. And reading Svens posts also in German.
I wonder if there are any YLT type of translations in other languages....

So it's not just a KJV thing is it? So, what exactly is it that people are supposed to come away with from reading their Bible, regarding ET vs UR? I seriously doubt that I ever would have come to any other conclusion than ET or perhaps Anilationism, strictly on the basis of reading my Bible, irregardless of the teaching of men, which I never paid much if any attention to anyways. And I know already for a fact that I definitely would NEVER have come to the conclusion of an "terrifyingly cruel" God, or a "schizophrenic" God, or anything of the sort. Just my :2c:

Can you explain what you mean? First you write you most likely would become an ET. But then you write you don't think you would have concluded God is cruel. Isn't ET cruel? Or do you mean your opinion would then be people like being in hell?

[Texas Son]

So you're saying the Word of God isn't enough? The desert island guy would need a bunch of extrabiblical writings to get things right? That's what the reformation was all about, to boot out extrabiblical teachings. Again, it comes down to the teachings of men, and not relying solely upon the Word.

Would we know about the warnings of Jesus coming to pass if not for the historical writers of the time? It would be interesting to take a poll of Christians asking them if they knew what happened in 70AD. I would think it would be a low percentage.

If not for my Greek Lexicon I wouldn't know the more precise meaning of words and phrases in my Bible.

I would say that God blesses those who truly seek Him out not only in His Word, but through other resources we are blessed to have.

[Kimberlaina]

I think that part of the issue here is that people see the word "salvation" and begin seeking out what they believe they were saved "from."  We live in such darkness and death that we didn't know that we didn't know God (got that?  :winkgrin: )  Not knowing God doesn't even seem that terrible to us.  There are people all around us who don't know God and their lives go on, right?  They have families, jobs, homes, philosophies of life, all of that.  There's nothing scary there to be saved from!  (That's what people think . . . .)

So we look for the really scary thing to be saved from.  That makes us hone in on passages of destruction.  We need the scary thing that we've been saved from to finish our narrative, and unfortunately, being separated from God in a state of death doesn't scare us nearly enough.

[firstborn888]

I'm pretty much convinced that severe judgments like weeping and gnashing of teeth, are in regard to those who deny the divinity of Jesus. 

According to the bible those who don't feed and cloth and visit the brothers of Jesus don't know Him and will be cast into the aionian fire. Those who do feed and cloth and visit the brothers of Jesus are the blessed who do know Him.

Also we have the following:  "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation". (Notice that 'doing good' or 'doing evil' is the focal point).

The Rich man and Lazarus - same thing, faith and beliefs are not mentioned at all.

I have meet quite a few Christian zealots who have all the doctrines down pat and exude very little care for people. Having correct doctrinal beliefs don't seem to be very high on the bible's importance chart. 

[sven]

It seems my mother - a strict lutheran, stopped believing in hell after reading
Walther J. Veith´s book "Truth Matters - Escaping the Labyrinth of Error",
I think she tends to annihalism now, i´m kind of glad about this.

[Nathan]

I believe there is a great danger when we read the Word and the Word only . . .because it's source didn't come from the mind of a man, but from the Spirit of Truth.  And as such, we should read the Word . .whatever translation, but listen to what the spirit says about it.  Read the word IN the Spirit.  It is true that the spirit does teach us the things of God . . .it brings back to our limited memories things that had been deposited in there who knows when.  But again, the key is . . it's SPIRITUAL.

It has to do with maturity.  How many times have you heard someone say "I've read this verse thousands of times and then one day POW!!  I got it!!!"  Or something to that extent.  I believe the reason is, it was due to the process of spiritual growth that you were going through the first 999 times you read that verse and the 1000th time, you were at a spiritual place of maturity where you could understand what it was the Spirit was showing you.

I personally think you could be on that same deserted island and "not" have a Bible wash ashore and "still" come to know Christ in a personal way by being aware that the very island itself was created to save you from drowning . . .

1 Chronicles 16:33
33Then the trees of the forest will sing for joy before the LORD;
         For He is coming to judge the earth.

Isaiah 44:23
23Shout for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done it!
         Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth;
         Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains,
         O forest, and every tree in it;
         For the LORD has redeemed Jacob
         And in Israel He shows forth His glory.

Psalms 98
7Let the sea roar and all it contains,
         The world and those who dwell in it.
8Let the rivers clap their hands,
         Let the mountains sing together for joy

148:7
7Praise the LORD from the earth,
         Sea monsters and all deeps;


There are tons of Scriptures that talk about the earth proclaiming the glory of God.  As I've said before, the earth is the alphabet God uses to speak to us.  Rather than embrace the letters on a page that as we're learning everyday, a lot gets lost in translation, perhaps we should learn to read the language of the earth that proclaims this glory instead. 

John 5:38-40
38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 You search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.  40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
.

Romans 1
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I personally think you could be on that same deserted island and "not" have a Bible wash ashore and "still" come to know Christ in a personal way by being aware that the very island itself was created to save you from drowning . . .

I agree with this.

[WhiteWings]

Brain,

I agree there are many Bible readers that come to an ET conclusion.
But how about Bible studyers ?

[Nathan]

I think that is "still" irrelevant because my Bible "study" also derives from my doctrinal beliefs.  Just look at all your commentators in the pages of your favorite study Bible.  Their studies often times are to affirm what they already believe.  For me, growth is not hearing what you already know, it's hearing what you've never heard before. The Pharisees were the most knowledgeable men who spent hours upon hours pouring their minds over the pages of Scripture . . .and they were actually harder to convince than any rag-tag person spending their life at the docks.

[WhiteWings]

Isn't study by defenition learning something new or improving what you already know?
If you everything, there is nothing to study.
But I admit that further study often is no more that gathering examples for what you already believe...
Not really study IMO but very human.

[Nathan]

I'm having a hard time making sense of some of your responses . . .it feels like your mind knows what it wants to say, but doesn't always relay that to your fingers . . . the line you wrote . . .I one knows everything there is nothing to study. . . .is killing me . .. I have no idea what you were "trying" to say with it.

As for the topic at hand, there are different levels of studying for me.  On the one hand, I need to read a passage several times over just to get it in me enough to know where it is when I come back tomorrow.  Then there's the cross referencing, the digging up of specific words for literal definitions and then putting it all together to see what the sum is.  Sometimes I go away changed, sometimes I don't.  If I had to do a written test on it, I may pass the test, but not understand a word of what it was actually meaning.

I find it interesting that there was/is a discussion on knowing what "faith" is.  Everything a Christian is, is based on faith.  What is the evidence of things not seen?  It's your reaction to what your mind sees, even though it's not happened yet.  Where I work at, we make oatmeal.  And in doing so, we're required to wear steel-toed safety shoes, shatter-proof safety glasses, whether you wear glasses or not, you have to wear safety glasses.  Ear plugs, hairnets, we can only power down an electrical breaker if we're wearing long sleeved cotton shirts, and if we get caught outside these perimeters, we can be disciplined.  Why?  Because someone sees the possibility of getting hurt . . .they "see" the potential even though it's not happened, and they "act" accordingly by creating all these rules.

I call that dark faith.  It's seeing something as though it has happened, but it is creating a negative response in you.  Is wearing safety glasses considered a bad thing?  Well, if you knew what the job required to make oatmeal . . .safety glasses really are not a priority.  Same with steal-toed shoes . . .this plant has been here 100 years and in the last 5, we've had to wear steel-toed shoes . . .for "fear" of the "possibility" that something "could" fall on your foot.

One of the main reasons why churches are so prone to enforce their vision of commandments is based on fear.  Fear of you going to hell, fear of the church not having order or structure, fear that if we don't push tithe, we can't get the new carpeting we want.  It's all faith, but it's not healthy faith.

In the reverse, "if" I can see myself flying even though my life right now is in chaos, "if" I can "envision" myself in not only order, but freedom, that kind of thinking then changes my awareness of where I "am" and shifts it over to where I "will be".  And if I can "dwell" in "that" place, then I react to that by making changes of where I currently "am".   Faith always causes a physical reaction . .which is what we call fruit.  It can be a negative reaction, or a positive one.  It can come from dark faith, or light.  My fruit can be sour, or sweet.

[WhiteWings]

I'm having a hard time making sense of some of your responses . . .it feels like your mind knows what it wants to say, but doesn't always relay that to your fingers . . . the line you wrote . . .IF one knows everything there is nothing to study. . . .is killing me . .. I have no idea what you were "trying" to say with it.

I --> If

I editted my post and rephrased the sentence. I hope it's clear now.

[sven]

what do the ET believers believe will happen to those people who lived and died before Jesus was born?

[Nathan]

Those who lived according to animal sacrifice and obeyed the law were the ones that Jesus went and got during the three days he was in hell and he moved them from paradise into heaven . . .

At least that is what I was taught when I was ET myself.

[sven]

and what about those who were no Jews and never heard of the Thora?

[Nathan]

To elaborate a little more on what Brian was trying so say . . . :laughing7:

To hell with them!

[Andromeda_Organa]

Brain,

I agree there are many Bible readers that come to an ET conclusion.
But how about Bible studyers ?

it's "Studiers" :)