(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4015/s2bt.jpg)
Any significance Jacob has sons with 4 different women?
That's a really good question and I also wonder if there is significance to Rachel having 2 sons?
Joseph = God will increase
Benjamin = Son of my right hand
Rachel was the beloved, beautiful wife.
Leah was dim of eye and homely, but he was forced to marry her first because she was older.
The Law and Grace.
Quote from: lomarah on July 09, 2012, 12:31:12 AM
That's a really good question and I also wonder if there is significance to Rachel having 2 sons?
Joseph = God will increase
Benjamin = Son of my right hand
Joseph is the firstborn son of the beloved wife=Jesus.
Benjamin gets the golden cup of Joseph, son of the right hand=us.
Jesus a Son of the right hand was annoited by Benjaminite Mary Magdalena.
Yes Jesus stands at the right hand of God.
He is also the 'younger brother' [the second Adam].
Joseph (a type of Christ) was the first to inherit the kingdom. The last to enter (the feet are born last) is Benjamin, son of the right hand. Once he entered he never came back. His table had five times the provision of the other brothers. The five-fold ministry produces the likeness of a perfect, mature man, the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
The difference between a bastard and a son, a legal heir in the image and likeness, is not with the Father. They both have the same father. It is in the mother. Are we born of Babylon or Zion, the Jerusalem above or the one that now is below and is in bondage with her children?
I remember discovering one of the bearers of the twelve tribes name "Bilhah" meant, "bearing hire." Where I got that I don't know. In blueletterbible it reveals Bilhah is the two Hebrew letters for bath and first mention concerns Adam, "And he begat sons and daughters." (Genesis 54) "Daughters" here is the same as Bilhah. That web site shows many ways the word is translated. Gesenius's Lexicon there is one of the best helps I know; but, I don't know how to get a copy for tentmaker.
I studied certain of these types of things around the mid 80's. Like the meaning of the Hebrew names of Daniel and the other three princes that were thrown into the firey furnace with him compared to the names given them in Babylon. This illustrates something of how the false church recognizes those identities born of God.
Benjamin was the first and last son of Israel. By that I mean after God changed Jacob's name into Israel.
That made Benjamin the first son/tribe of Israel. The other eleven were/are tribes of Jacob.
So the last son was the first son of Israel.
Last shall be first????
Joseph the full elder brother of Benjamin was the last "tribe of Jacob" and sold in slavery.
Jospeh was assumed to be dead. When the other 11 vistited Egypt Benjamin got 5x more food (Gen 43:34), 5x more clothes and 300 pieces of silvel (Gen 45:21-22)
I don't see any relavance in 5x and 300.
Benjamite king Saul was replaced by king David of the Judah tribe.
Judah was the last, fourth, son of Jacob before he slept with his slavewomen. I don't know if that's significant.
Two tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh, are not mentioned in my first post but were formed later. -> Joseph''s tribe split up.
After Solomon died Jeroboam (Ephraim) 'took' 10 tribes and they were named house of Israel.
The remaining two, Judah and Benjamin, are called House of Judah.
Benjaminite Saul was one of the biggest enemies of Jesus' (Judah) teachings.
After being renamed to Paul he became one of the strongest promoteers of Jesus teachings.
12 tribes are given land. The Levites didn't recieve land but priesthood.
That's a total of 12+1=13 tribes.
The tribe of Joseph (eventually) split up into Manasseh and Ephraim?
Why?
What significance does it have?
All those Jewish adoption laws are confusing but at death Jesus was (also) a Benjamite I think.
He was adopted into his mother's familiy/bloodline after His earthly father died.
So again the Benjamintes seem to place a important role in history.
All that said I still don't have clue what this all means....
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg/500px-12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg.png)
Larger picture. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg/2000px-12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg.png)
Notice that Jerusalem is in Benjamin's territory.
I've updated the chart in post #1 to reflect nothern and southern tribes plus the split of Joseph's tribe.
Manasseh and Ephraim are not on the high priest's breast plate.
Joseph, meaning Increaser, shows the result of increase in his offspring; Ephraim, meaning Fruits, or doubly Fruitful, and Manasseh, meaning Forgetfulness. In the place of Increase we Forget all the trouble and suffering we went through to come into such Fruitfulness in our lives.
Jacob and Rachel were so very much in love it was a great disappointment that they weren't having any children. It was "the virgin shall conceive" thing again. When they finally did have Joseph, [when the Messiah finally did arrive,] every time they called his name as he was growing up they were speaking a prophecy that another son was yet on the way (as Bill Britton pointed out.) Benjamin would be born of the same mother [the whole body of Christ must yet enter in to reign, not the head only, but the rest of the body in the latter days.]
Only the house of Judah existed at Jesus time.
Benjamin was:
- 12th son of Jacob
- 2nd son of Israel (former Jacob)
- Last son of Jacob/Israel.
- 2nd son of a 2nd wife.
- 2nd son of a 4th wife when counting the slave girls.
Jesus is from Judah. The tribe born from Jacob. The old man.
Benjamin is born from Israel. The new man.
Those two tribes merge into the Southern tribe/House of Judah.
That's like merging the old with the new.
???
Usually people just mention Leah and Rachel, but 4 tribes were born from slave girls.
I'm sure they aren't just there to spice up the story a bit.
If it was of no importance the Bible would just as listed 12 sons, like in other chapters/books that gives 'endless' lists of names without further explanations and/or comments.
I think there is a salvation pattern in those 12 manners or birth. But what.....?
Not sure about the significance of the slave women vs. wives but I know that the names of the 12 sons are very significant.
Sons of Jacob
Meaning of Name------------------------------Mother---------------------Birth Verse
01-Reuben -See, a son Leah So Leah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben; for she said, "The LORD has surely seen my affliction. Now therefore, my husband will love me." Gen 29.32
02-Simeon-Hearing Leah Then she conceived again and bore a son, and said, "Because the LORD has heard that I am unloved, He has therefore given me this son also." And she called his name Simeon. Gen 29.33
03-Levi-Joined; attached Leah She conceived again and bore a son, and said, "Now this time my husband will become attached to me, because I have borne him three sons." Therefore his name was called Levi. Gen 29.34
04-Judah-Yah be praised Leah And she conceived again and bore a son, and said, "Now I will praise Yahweh." Therefore she called his name Judah. Then she stopped bearing. Gen 29.35
05-Dan-Judge Bilhah (Rachel's servant) Then Rachel said, "God has judged my case; and He has also heard my voice and given me a son." Therefore she called his name Dan. Gen 30.6
06-Naphtali-My wrestling Bilhah Rachel said, "With great wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and indeed I have prevailed." So she called him Naphtali. Gen 30.6
07-Gad-Troop; good fortune Zilpah (Leah's servant) Then Leah said, "A troop comes!" So she called his name Gad. Gen 30.11
08-Asher-Happy Zilpah Then Leah said, "I am happy, for the daughters will call me blessed." So she called his name Asher. Gen 30.13
09-Issachar-Man of hire Leah Leah said, "God has given me my hire [wages] because I have given my maid to my husband." So she called his name Issachar. Gen 30.18
10-Zebulun-Dwelling Leah Leah said, "...now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons." So she called his name Zebulun. Gen 30.20b
11-Joseph-Increaser Rachel So she called his name Joseph, and said, "The LORD shall add to me another son." Gen 30.24
12-Benjamin-Son of the right hand Rachel As her soul was departing (for she died), she called his name Ben-Oni [son of my sorrow]; but his father called him Ben-Jamin. Gen 35.18
(Taken from here: http://www.biblestudy101.org/Lists/12tribes.html)
This setup sucks but this is the extent of my computer skills. :)
(I know you have the meanings in the first post WW but I think the verses are really significant too.)
What I am wondering is if the first ten represent those who have the initial salvation experience (think the "church") but do not go on to attain perfection in this life. And the last two represent those who, in Card's words, press in and Christ "increases" in them until they attain that perfection and become a "son of the right hand".
Now I do know that the first ten DO represent those in the "church" (talked about it with Card some, like she said, think about it, ten is the number of the law) and that Joseph is a type for us who have been treated horribly by our brothers (most of us are heretics, right? Been thrown in a pit lately? I've basically been deemed as worthy as Satan.). But the best part of the story is, we get lifted up and then are able to go back and "feed" them and aid in their salvation! Very cool stuff!
QuoteWhat I am wondering is if the first ten represent those who have the initial salvation experience (think the "church") but do not go on to attain perfection in this life
The tribe of Judah (Jesus) is 4th of those 10
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2012, 02:24:28 PM
QuoteWhat I am wondering is if the first ten represent those who have the initial salvation experience (think the "church") but do not go on to attain perfection in this life
The tribe of Judah (Jesus) is 4th of those 10
I know but the first ten still represent the church. It's true. I asked Card. ;P
What exactly is the pattern then?
Quotebut do not go on to attain perfection in this life.
Jesus was of one of those tribes but He attained perfection.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2012, 02:32:50 PM
What exactly is the pattern then?
Quotebut do not go on to attain perfection in this life.
Jesus was of one of those tribes but He attained perfection.
No don't think of it that way. That's not saying only those from the tribe of Benjamin will reach perfection. That's just saying as a TYPE, that's what it represents. Types represent many different things all at once usually, this is just one type of the type. Get what I mean? :D
I'm not talking about 'only'.
If the first 10 fail to reach perfection (churches fail), I would say Jesus would be the 11th tribe that does reach perfection. But that isn't the case.
If the 10 first tribes are churches:
- Based on what?
- Which churches?
- And above all: What's the pattern?
I'm not sure what you mean by what's the pattern. But when I say the "church" I basically mean those who have the initial "I believe in Jesus, thank You for dying for me" experience but then do nothing else, don't press in, don't bother with sanctification or perfection. So I'm not talking about specific denominations or anything like that, just those who are already believers but are not pressing in to attain perfection. Jesus isn't a tribe. He descends from the tribe of Judah but that doesn't make Him the tribe of Judah. He is the Lion from the tribe of Judah. But I don't know if that has any meaning in this type. Card would know better.
Quote from: lomarah on July 18, 2012, 02:52:03 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by what's the pattern.
What's the significatnce Jesus descended from the 4th tribe and not of, say, the 8th.
That sort of things.
Don't have a sweet clue. :)
(I'm sure there is significance to it, everything is significant. Just don't know what it is yet. Maybe Card would know. Likely she would.)
4 signifies creation, like the 4 corners of the earth, 4 elements, 4 faces of the cherubim (IMO the cherubim signify all of the physical world), He was born the 4th tribe as the son of man
The sun(son), moon(bride) and stars(sons) were created on the 4th day
the son was born in the 4000th year (give or take)
There were 3 temples before the true temple was born (tabernacle, Solomons, zerubabel)
Wow, very cool!!
Quote from: lomarah on July 18, 2012, 02:52:03 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by what's the pattern. But when I say the "church" I basically mean those who have the initial "I believe in Jesus, thank You for dying for me" experience but then do nothing else, don't press in, don't bother with sanctification or perfection. So I'm not talking about specific denominations or anything like that, just those who are already believers but are not pressing in to attain perfection. Jesus isn't a tribe. He descends from the tribe of Judah but that doesn't make Him the tribe of Judah. He is the Lion from the tribe of Judah.
I like your post lo. Not to derail the thread, but I have quick question of clarification. Sometimes I like to know what folks mean by certain words or phrases we all use.
By 'perfection' (which is a KJV translation) do you mean
maturity/being in His will? I certainly do believe in obedience, yielding to Him, and maturity, but I for one do not believe anyone will obtain absolute 100% perfection (as in no mistakes, no warts, no fleshly carnal thoughts etc.) in this age. I believe it as described in I Cor. 15:52. Thanks :)
Hey jabbers! I do in fact mean perfection! Think growing up into the full stature of Christ/dying so that HE can live in you/being an overcomer. Many will tell you it's not attainable in this life, but there are a select few who have the signs and wonders to back it up who will tell you that it IS attainable. I believe them! He died and rose so that we could have ABUNDANT life, be SET FREE from sin and death! This is what I am going for! By the grace of God I am seeking to die so that He can live in me! :cloud9:
And actually, more importantly than the signs and wonders, they have the LOVE of Christ resonating through them. That is how you can know they are the real deal!
Quote from: lomarah on July 18, 2012, 09:19:16 PM
Hey jabbers! I do in fact mean perfection! Think growing up into the full stature of Christ/dying so that HE can live in you/being an overcomer. Many will tell you it's not attainable in this life, but there are a select few who have the signs and wonders to back it up who will tell you that it IS attainable. I believe them! He died and rose so that we could have ABUNDANT life, be SET FREE from sin and death! This is what I am going for! By the grace of God I am seeking to die so that He can live in me! :cloud9:
OK, thanks for clarifying. The word teleioi means mature, complete - righteousness, "right standing", as in, His sacrifice and righteousness become ours. I also believe the context of Jesus' teaching ("be ye perfect" [complete]" was about building works on the foundation of love for one another.
I know there are a few who believe what you state above, and I wanted folks to be clear about what was being said. I don't want to derail here and get into a big discussion about it in this thread. Everyone can make up their own mind before the Lord about it. Thanks. :gthumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on July 18, 2012, 09:25:54 PM
Quote from: lomarah on July 18, 2012, 09:19:16 PM
Hey jabbers! I do in fact mean perfection! Think growing up into the full stature of Christ/dying so that HE can live in you/being an overcomer. Many will tell you it's not attainable in this life, but there are a select few who have the signs and wonders to back it up who will tell you that it IS attainable. I believe them! He died and rose so that we could have ABUNDANT life, be SET FREE from sin and death! This is what I am going for! By the grace of God I am seeking to die so that He can live in me! :cloud9:
OK, thanks for clarifying. The word teleioi means mature, complete - righteousness, "right standing", as in, His sacrifice and righteousness become ours. I also believe the context of Jesus' teaching ("be ye perfect" [complete]" was about building works on the foundation of love for one another.
I know there are a few who believe what you state above, and I wanted folks to be clear about what was being said. I don't want to derail here and get into a big discussion about it in this thread. Everyone can make up their own mind before the Lord about it. Thanks. :gthumbsup:
Also,
telos means "end." Being made perfect also speaks of The Finishing Work.
Philippians 3
15 speaks of, "...as many as be perfect," referring to forgetting the things that are past.
Colossians 3
14 says, "Love...is the bond of perfectness."
Judah is the fourh tribe. Jesus descended from that tribe.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/the-fourth-word/msg138309/#msg138309
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2012, 09:25:27 PM
Judah is the fourh tribe. Jesus descended from that tribe.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/the-fourth-word/msg138309/#msg138309
Yes
(Gen 33:1) And Jacob lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, Esau was coming, and four hundred men with him. And he divided the children to Leah, and to Rachel, and to the two handmaids.
10 Tribes of Leah.
2 Tribes of Rachel. -> Split into 3 tribes.
(Gen 32:22) And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two handmaids, and his eleven children, and passed over the ford of the Jabbok.
They cross the Jordan.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg/500px-12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg.png)
What's the significance of three tribes being on the 'wrong side' of the Jordan?
jOSHUA 22
V 10 WHEN THEY CAME TO gELILOTH NEAR THE JORDAN IN THE LAND OF CANAAN, THE REUBENITES THE GADITES AND THE HALF TRIBE OF
MANASSEH BUILT AN IMPOSING ALTAR THERE BY THE JORDAN.
AND WHEN THE ISREALITES HEARD THEY HAD BUILT THE ALTAR ON THE BORDER OF CANAAN..NEAR THE JORDAN ON THE ISREALITE SIDE
THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY GATHERED AT SHILOH TO GO TO WAR AGAINST THEM....
V21THE MIGHTY ONE,GOD THE LORD THE MIGHTY ONE GOD THE LORD. HE KNOWS!
AND LET ISREAL KNOW IF THIS HAS BEEN IN REBELLION OR DISOBEDIANCE TO THE LORD DO NOT SPARE US THIS DAY.....
NO WE DID THIS IN FEAR THAT SOME DAY YOUR DESCENDANTS MIGHT SAY TO OURS WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO WITH
THE LORD GOD OF ISREAL. THE LORD HAS MADE THE JORDAN A BOUNDARY BETWEEN US AND YOU- YOU REUBENITES AND GADITES!
YOU HAVE NO SHARE IN THE LORD. SO YOUR DESCENDANTS MIGHT CAUSE OURS TO STOP FEARING THE LORD
THAT IS WHY WE SAID LET US GET READY AND BUILD AN ALTAR- BUT NOT FOR BURNT OFFERING OR SACRIFICES
ON THE CONTRARY IT IS TO BE A WITTNESS BETWEEN US AND YOU
Quote from: jabcat on July 18, 2012, 09:25:54 PM
Quote from: lomarah on July 18, 2012, 09:19:16 PM
Hey jabbers! I do in fact mean perfection! Think growing up into the full stature of Christ/dying so that HE can live in you/being an overcomer. Many will tell you it's not attainable in this life, but there are a select few who have the signs and wonders to back it up who will tell you that it IS attainable. I believe them! He died and rose so that we could have ABUNDANT life, be SET FREE from sin and death! This is what I am going for! By the grace of God I am seeking to die so that He can live in me! :cloud9:
OK, thanks for clarifying. The word teleioi means mature, complete - righteousness, "right standing", as in, His sacrifice and righteousness become ours. I also believe the context of Jesus' teaching ("be ye perfect" [complete]" was about building works on the foundation of love for one another.
I know there are a few who believe what you state above, and I wanted folks to be clear about what was being said. I don't want to derail here and get into a big discussion about it in this thread. Everyone can make up their own mind before the Lord about it. Thanks. :gthumbsup:
This is just my 2 cents on the matter...but if Paul struggled and wrestled with the flesh...I think all of us outside of Jesus Christ himself will wrestle with this flesh.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 10, 2012, 10:15:18 PM
What's the significance of three tribes being on the 'wrong side' of the Jordan?
If we see crossing over the Jordan as crossing over from this life into the perfection of the Kingdom of Heaven, including glorification, then holding back from crossing, claiming that "hey, life is pretty good on this side," should be a symbol of people or peoples who are content with a New Earth sort of existence, rather than the full New Heavens and New Earth existence. Not everyone belongs to the Barley or Wheat companies, some belong to the grape vintage, and like it that way. There is room for all in God's Kingdom, and a purpose for them as well.
Quote from: shawn on September 10, 2012, 11:15:25 PM
Quote from: jabcat on July 18, 2012, 09:25:54 PM
Quote from: lomarah on July 18, 2012, 09:19:16 PM
Hey jabbers! I do in fact mean perfection! Think growing up into the full stature of Christ/dying so that HE can live in you/being an overcomer. Many will tell you it's not attainable in this life, but there are a select few who have the signs and wonders to back it up who will tell you that it IS attainable. I believe them! He died and rose so that we could have ABUNDANT life, be SET FREE from sin and death! This is what I am going for! By the grace of God I am seeking to die so that He can live in me! :cloud9:
OK, thanks for clarifying. The word teleioi means mature, complete - righteousness, "right standing", as in, His sacrifice and righteousness become ours. I also believe the context of Jesus' teaching ("be ye perfect" [complete]" was about building works on the foundation of love for one another.
I know there are a few who believe what you state above, and I wanted folks to be clear about what was being said. I don't want to derail here and get into a big discussion about it in this thread. Everyone can make up their own mind before the Lord about it. Thanks. :gthumbsup:
This is just my 2 cents on the matter...but if Paul struggled and wrestled with the flesh...I think all of us outside of Jesus Christ himself will wrestle with this flesh.
It's amazing how many times that just in my normal reading to begin the day, I read something that is closely connected to a salient topic on TM. I went to bed last night with it on my mind how I needed to turn things over to the Lord, surrender things to Him. (which is true, but I still need to realize it's not my strength or goodness but HIS - and that it's His grace and blood applied to my life through the gift of faith in Him that puts me in right standing with Him. Amen!) Anyway, this morning I read this, and it sure caught my attention;
"..so therefore, on the one hand, I myself am slaving for God's law with my mind; yet, on the other hand, I am slaving for wrongdoing's law with my flesh. Therefore, there is now no condenmation for those who are in union with the Anointed One Yesu."
Sorry, I realized I'm continuing a hijacking I started a while back. My bad.
:hijacked: :punish:
Back to Jacob and 'da boys... :)
In Revelation 7 (KJV) it is spelled "Juda." Concordant Literal spells Rv 7 "Judah." Anyway, it is listed first at that location. And the meaning of "Leah," the mother of the Jacobs 1st four children, is: (?) actually, the meanings of the four mothers' names are?
I see you have it in the first post. I remember when studying the point of the mothers I found Bilhah meant "bearing hire."-- It matters that Joseph (Increaser) as "Christ the head" and Benjamin (Son of the Right Hand) as "the sons of God in the latter days," "the 'Foot' Company" --these are not born of hire; in fact, not of the two servants, Bilhah and Zilpah. Nor of the first wife for whom Jacob worked so hard for seven years. Before he worked, Rachael, his dearly beloved was given to him. She was the bearer of Joseph and Benjamin.
Is that a statement or a question Ref?
The meaning of the names is in the lower half of the OP.
Quote from: Molly on July 09, 2012, 01:00:39 AM
Quote from: lomarah on July 09, 2012, 12:31:12 AM
That's a really good question and I also wonder if there is significance to Rachel having 2 sons?
Joseph = God will increase
Benjamin = Son of my right hand
Joseph is the firstborn son of the beloved wife=Jesus.
Benjamin gets the golden cup of Joseph, son of the right hand=us.
Beautiful.
Judah = praise God
Reuben = behold a Son
Gad = good fortune
Asher = happiness
Naphtali = my struggle
Manasseh = God has caused me to forget
Simeon = hearing
Levi = grafting in
Issachar = God has reinstated me
Zebulun = elevated position
Joseph = increased
Benjamin = son of the right hand
When we put them together in the order that they are presented, we have a clear message that will apply directly to Israel during the upcoming time of Jacob's trouble;
"Praise God! Behold a son of good fortune and happiness. My struggle God has caused me to forget. Hearing of our grafting in, God has reinstated me to an elevated position, increased by the Son of the right hand."
Like! and we can see Paul[a Benjamite],announcing all Israel being saved..having been but
blinded for a time,til all the Gentiles come in per the Holy Spirit testimony..
and if you can accept it, Jesus Christ as the greater Joseph[sold into slavery/death by brothers
through jealousy]..went ahead..to prepare a place for sustaining His brother's life as well as
many people's in the world.......not a literal famine,but a famine for hearing the word of God.....
which man must live by.[Rev 11;6]
the Sons were seated in birth order around the table....He tested for any remnants of jealousy
by giving little Benjamin 5 times the portion of his other brothers[the former jealousy over the coat
of many colours/prophesy of Joseph's position/dreams from God]
also.....surely it was thought that a beast had devoured him[Rev 11;7] coat of many colours rolled
in blood.................but that coat of many colours becomes the banner of love.......
he has taken me to the banquet hall and the banner over me is love
Wow.
Awesome.