Reply to Damnationist Thread

[Lloyd]

The following are excerpts from http://www.mercifultruth.com.

* Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

* Have you paused to consider that when you read about God's "hatred" of sinners, and you attribute your personal, human emotional psychology to God's words, you are lowering God to your level? You are making your thoughts God's thoughts, and your ways, His ways. You are attributing your feelings, which proceed from your human heart - which the Bible says is "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (Jer 17:9) - to a God who is not flesh, but Spirit.
* God is nothing like you and me. His ways are not your ways, but are higher than your ways. His thoughts are not like your thoughts, but are higher. Even his so-called "hate" is "love" compared to your weak human emotional hatred you show your enemies. Do you see how easy it is for God to melt the human heart with His "hatred?"

James Patrick Holding of the orthodox Christian website Tektonics.org writes in his essay: Exclusive and Hyperbolic Language in the Bible ...:
* "As a further demonstration, let us now consider an ancient example from outside the Bible. First, here is a cite from the Scriptures that is sometimes regarded by critics as problematic:
* 1 Samuel 15:8 - And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
* Critics find it odd that a people here recorded as being "utterly destroyed" come back making trouble just a few chapters later in 1 Samuel. But compare this to an inscription offered by the Egyptian Pharaoh Ramesses III [taken from Moshe and Trude Dothan, Peoples of the Sea, 27]:
* I slew the Denyon in their islands, while the Tjekker and Philistines were made ashes. The Sherden and the Washesh of the sea were made non-existent, captured all together and brought on captivity to Egypt like the sands of the shore.
* Clearly when Ramsses tells us his enemies were "made non-existent," he was not meaning this literally, since he goes on to indicate that they were captured. In ancient context, then, such claims as 1 Samuel 15:8 makes are not to be taken literally either. They are no more absolute statements than those of football fans who celebrate a team's win by shouting, "We're #1!" -- even if the team has lost more games than it has won!
* And in fact, such rhetorical emphasis typifies ancient and even modern Semitic cultures. G. B. Caird, in The Language and Imagery of the Bible, notes the frequent use of hyperbole among Semitic peoples, and notes that "its frequent use arises out of a habitual cast of mind" which tends to view matters in extremes, or as we would say, "black and white." The Semitic mindset is dogmatic, and despises doubt; things are either one way or another, and there is no room for introspection.

* Genesis 29:30-1 - And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.
* Here, "hated" is clearly used synonymously with one who is loved less. Let it be added that if Jacob hated Leah in a literal way, it is hardly believable that he would consent to take her as his wife at all! (See also Judges 14:16 and Deut. 21:15-17.)

* Another example cited by critics is Luke 14:26, in which Jesus says we must "hate" others for the sake of the Gospel. Critics want to read this as literal hate; we reply by identifying such sayings as containing a rhetorical emphasis, not referring to literal hate.
* Bottom line -- skeptics who think that Jesus is preaching literal and misogynist hate in this verse are doing no more than the usual -- thinking out of time, out of mind with the text, and in some cases ... letting their own "hate" get in the way of reading the text any way other than with wooden literalism.
* These words are written by a theologian who believes God will eventually send all non-Christians to infinite torment, that Jesus will stand by while his creation endures unrelenting suffering "forever." But, he refers to an insistence of interpreting "hate" literally in the Bible to being "wooden literalism." Nevertheless, he makes a good point about the use of hyperbole in ancient cultures.

* Rom 9:13 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
* This is not even a scripture about God hating a sinner. According to the Bible, God had made a decision about Esau, and Jacob without them "having done any good or evil."
* Jacob stole Esau's rights and blessing. Then he ran far away, because Esau, in his human way, was angry with Jacob and swore to kill him. Time passed. One day though, the Lord said to Jacob: "Jacob, go back to your relatives in the land of your ancestors, and I will bless you." (Gen 31:3)
* Esau, having been tipped off, amassed troops and waited to strike and kill Jacob
* Gen 33:1-12 - Later that day Jacob met Esau coming with his four hundred men. So Jacob had his children walk with their mothers. The two servant women, Zilpah and Bilhah, together with their children went first, followed by Leah and her children, then by Rachel and Joseph. Jacob himself walked in front of them all, bowing to the ground seven times as he came near his brother. But Esau ran toward Jacob and hugged and kissed him. Then the two brothers started crying. When Esau noticed the women and children he asked, "Whose children are these?" Jacob answered, "These are the ones the LORD has been kind enough to give to me, your servant."
* Remember friends. God hated Esau. God HATED him. God had a passionate gut wrenching emotional revulsion for Esau. Right? In fact, God hated Esau so much, He sent Jacob back to him, promising Jacob a blessing. And what a blessing Jacob received: HE BOWED TO ESAU SEVEN TIMES AND WAS REUNITED WITH HIM. That's quite an interesting hatred God has.

* Rom 3:23 - ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God; Isa 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned EVERY ONE to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
* That means you. That means me. That means "every one." That means, according to the Bible, God hates ALL, because ALL have been "workers of iniquity." Are you with me so far?
* 2 Corinthians 5:14 - For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.
* Would God send his Son to die for people he hates, or people he loves?

* Regarding God's hate to Esau, Vincent's Word Studies has this to say:
* The expression (hatred) is intentionally strong as an expression of moral antipathy. Compare Mat 6:24; Luk 14:26. No idea of malice is implied of course.
* The Barnes Commentary on the Bible has this to say:
* "Have I hated" - This does not mean any positive hatred; but that he had preferred Jacob, and had withheld from Esau those privileges and blessings which he had conferred on the posterity of Jacob.
* So "love" and "hate" are not only linguistic exagerrations, common for Hebrews of the time, but are an expression of preference which do not necessarily imply a visceral emotional reaction. So God chose/loved Jacob, and God hated/did-not-choose Esau.

* Jesus says: "Unless you hate your mother and father, you cannot be my disciple."
* He means: "Unless you place me first above all others, you cannot be my disciple"

* Do you ever wonder why God changes people's names? The apostle Paul was first a Pharisee, known as Saul of Tarsus. In his writings, Paul claimed that he was a murderer, a "chief sinner" and lest you forget, God hates ALL who work iniquity, right?
* God's expression of hate for the sinner is that he does not favor the sinner to REMAIN in sin, and thereby destroys the sinner by creating a new person through the Spirit. The old man being freed from iniquity, removes the wall of partition between man and God, leaving a new man. In other words, God hated the "chief sinner" Saul so much that he put his Holy Spirit into Saul and named him Paul. God utterly consumed and destroyed Saul. He ground Saul into powder. The Lion of Judah crushed Saul under his claw. Then, Paul emerged and was born. God loved Paul.

* God sending his Son to redeem us and save us from sin is the ultimate act of hatred against sinners. It is the ultimate rejection of sinners. God hated Saul. God loved Paul. God rejects sinners by healing them of sin. God's hate is so much higher than whatever evil proceeds from the heart of mankind.
* 1 Co 1:25 - The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
* I'll leave you with the perceptive words of Abraham Lincoln: "Do I not destroy my enemies when I make friends of them?"

[Note: More from the same site is posted farther down at http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/reply-to-damnationist-thread/msg153069/#msg153069.]

[Lazarus Short]

Lloyd, that is utterly profound.  :dsunny:

[sheila]

amen,,if the Righteous should strike me..it would even be a blessing

....and He shall shepherd the nations with a rod of iron.[He will rule

them with an iron sceptor,he will dash them to peices like pottery]

  just like I have received authority from my Father

   as all men have bore the image of the corruptible,so,too shall all men

  bear the image of the incorruptible[He shall 'shatter" the image of the

corrupt..and of the same lump make a vessel of honor.
     

[anna274]

Lloyd, that is utterly profound.  :dsunny:

Lloyd and Laz...
I've been in the midst of some very intense study of various issues that have been of great interest to me these past several months... and I have been very selectively reading the posts here at Tentmaker... but when Laz states something as being "profound" I  am compelled!! to check it out... and learned to my great, great joy that Lloyd's sharing is indeed PROFOUND.  so thanks to both of you guys I have some very helpful Scriptures for my ongoing study:  Out of Love, For His Glory, God created man in His own image and likeness.   

[Lazarus Short]

Thank you, Anna, that was very kind.

[Lloyd]

Yeah, thanks for encouragement. It's nice that we can recognize profundity sometimes and then try to share it. Profundity = God's wisdom.

[VineBranch]

Your post starts with:  "The following are excerpts from http://www.mercifultruth.com."  Because I'm not really afraid of being the bad guy anymore, did you check the copyright issues?

[Lloyd]

I don't see any copyright threats. My understanding is that it's okay to copy things online if you credit the online source.

[Lloyd]

Here are some more excerpts from http://www.mercifultruth.com that seem worth sharing.

God: The Rock Of Ages

* 2 Timothy 1:13 - Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
* 2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to (show) thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
* 2 Peter 3:8 - Do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
* 1 Titus 1:17 - Now unto the King [of ages] (aion), immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory aion eis aion. Amen.
* Aion means age or ages - and aion eis aion means age unto age.... [God] is God of the aion/[ages].... AND, unto Him be honor and glory from "age unto age." Amen.

* Titus. 1:2 - In hope of aionios life (life of the ages), which God, that cannot lie, promised before the time of the ages (pro chronos aionios).
* [T]his verse means that God made a promise regarding aionios-life (the [Godly] life 'of the ages'), before he created those aions/ages. This will make perfect sense when we discuss what aionios-life really is. Just as Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world and his death was purposed by God before it happened (Acts 4:27-28), even so, aionios-life was [purposed] before the time of the ages (pro chronos aionios).
* 2 Timothy 1:11 - our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought LIFE and IMMORTALITY to light through the gospel.
* John 17:3 - And this is life aionios [Godly life 'of the ages']: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.
* This is exactly why Apostle John said, "anyone who hates his brother has not yet passed from death to life," though he lives and breathes right now. Remember, John says that no murderer has "aionios-life within him." In contrast, anyone who loves his brother has indeed "passed from death into life," because the love of God is within him.

* Didn't Jesus Christ call himself "the way, the truth, and the life?" (John 14:6)
* Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is aionios-life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
* Aionios-life is freedom from subjection to sin today, not [just] after death.
* Mark 10:29-30 - And Jesus answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions, and, in the [age] (aion) to come, aionios-life."
* Jesus Christ sits on the throne of His temple, which is within his followers. Paul said "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1 Cor 3:16) According to the Bible, that's life.
* It is astounding that when some people hear that God, through Jesus, will bring the world into repentance and salvation, they say "why bother preaching the Gospel if everyone will be saved?" Do they have something against spreading good news? [And, more important, spreading the good news is part of the means to bring salvation.]

* We see in John 8, that the Pharisees brought an adulteress before Jesus. They appealed to Deuteronomy 22:22, where it says adulteresses are to be killed. They demanded justice. In fact, Jesus was making company very often with people who deserved the death sentence according to the Law of Moses. You can see the trap the Pharisees were laying can't you: Why wasn't Jesus seeking "justice" with these people according to the Law of Moses? Wasn't Jesus bound to obey the Law? But, they knew if He did stone her, the people would turn against Him.
* Here is the genius of the Lord: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." None could condemn her, and neither did Jesus. He did not put the adulteress to death, even though Moses demanded it.
* John 5:45 - Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
* Christian theologians want us to believe that God is BOUND by his immortal nature to torture people forever. ... Jesus was not controlled, but was in command.... Jesus says, "I AM LORD OF THE LAW." (Mark 2:28).
* Jesus is Lord over justice, and therefore free to determine the duration of punishment as he sees fit. He is not forced to punish people forever just because He is immortal.
* When Christ hung on the cross and cried out to God regarding his murderers: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) where was the eternal "justice" that orthodoxy [demands]?

* Christians often say: "God must torture people forever, because he is just and holy, and cannot stand in the presence of sin." Does the presence of sin destroy God, or does the presence of God destroy sin?
* Certainly, God has shown his love for the world in such a way that that would be unthinkable to man.
* John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish (apollumi) but have aionios-life.
* Now, this scripture is used the Christian world over to prove [eternal damnation, but] Look closely. The verse does not say that unbelievers will be tortured for [eternity], nor does it say that those who do not now believe never will in the future.
* The word "perish" in this verse comes from the Greek word apollumi, meaning "to [be] destroy[ed]" ... or "to be lost."
* This word apollumi is used in this parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son. After that son humbly returns to his father, observe his father's words when speaking to his son's jealous brother.
* Luke 15:6 - And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost (apollumi).
* Luke 15:32 - 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours (the prodigal son) was dead and is alive again; he was lost (apollumi) and is found.'
* Remember how the Prodigal Son was perished (lost) in sin, and what horrible experiences he had? Yet, his experience caused him to remember his Father who waited with loving patience for his son to return to him.

* Consider this verse.
* Matthew 7:13-15 - Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction (apoleia - derivative of apollumi), and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
* How many times have you heard this verse twisted to say "narrow is the gate that leads to Heaven, and wide is the gate that leads to Hell?"
* This is what the verse says, "narrow is the way that leads to life." Please observe, and remember God's perspective, not man's assumption.
* Rom 8:10 - And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
* Rom 8:6 - For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
* How many more scriptures do you need to see that, according to God, life is in the Spirit right now? The reason that the gate to destruction is wide, is that the temptations of the carnal mind are easy to follow into a walking spiritual death. This verse has nothing to do with God sending people into "eternal" torture; it is about the difference between life, and the wages of sin.

* 2 Thessalonians 1:6 - God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
* First, we see a great revelation in this epistle: "God is just." God's justice is perfect balance through perfect wisdom. He judges until the debt is paid. Unlike vengeful human beings, God demands what is owed and not beyond: (Matt 18:21-35), as justice has obviously nothing to do with roasting human beings alive forever. The Biblical principle of "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" should reveal that. The wicked will be shut out from the presence of the Lord because He, in His awesome wisdom, has appointed an aion for aionios judgment.

* Have you ever heard about the "unforgivable sin?" This is what the orthodox church names it, though the actual term "unforgivable sin" is not scriptural.
* Mark 3:28-29 - Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost has not forgiveness in the age (aion), but is in danger of aionios judgment.
* [Aionios judgment is not eternal punishment.]
* The Scripture informs us: Isaiah 26:9 - When Your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world will learn righteousness. [If we] Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
* [This means that, since favor does not lead the wicked to righteousness, judgment is used to teach them righteousness.]
* Has a Christian ever told you that when God judges the earth, "the people of the world will learn righteousness?" Probably not. You probably heard that when God judges the earth, nobody will learn righteousness, but they will suffer torture forever instead. Liars.

* Psalm 96:11-13 - Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof. Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
* Have you ever heard a Christian rejoicing at the prospect of God coming to judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth? Of course not. They have no reason to say "let the earth be glad" at such a prospect. Make no mistake, God does NOT show favor to the wicked. HE JUDGES THEM, but not the way the despicable eternal torment doctrine proposes. Through those judgments, the people of the world learn righteousness.
* With their insidious, watered-down doctrines, it is amazing the undue credit that the Christian church has given Satan, insinuating that he wields the power to refute God's plan. God's purpose is good. He is Love, and He does nothing dislocated from love. How can Divine wrath be detached from Divine love? He does nothing outside his nature. He is not fractured and polarized against Himself.

* "The length of the aion [age] depends on the subject to which it is attached. It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There is one aion of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life."
* There is also an aion [age] of judgment. During aionios punishment perfect justice is done by a perfect God who alone determines the time needed to achieve his own purpose - that the ones being judged learn righteousness. His wrath achieves his heart's desire. It has always been so.
* As we rightly perceive according to God, aionios-life is Jesus Christ within us right now, what happens, then, at the end of the aions [ages], when aionios-life and aionios judgment has done a great purpose for God in the ages He created? Does aionios-life end when the aions to come have been consummated? Of course not. It just gets better! Watch what happens next.
* The Bible describes a few things that occur regarding death:
1) The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (1 Cor 15:25-26)
2) Death will be swallowed up to victory (1 Cor 15:54)
3) God made Christ the king of the entire world so that in the "dispensation of the fullness of time" he will "bring everything together in Christ, both in heaven and on the earth". (Eph 1:9-10)

* Reading the above article will demonstrate that the aionios covenant of Christ (being life for those who believe) will be completely fulfilled by Christ, resulting in all knees bowing and all tongues confessing that he is Lord, in the dispensation of the fullness of time (Phil 2:10-11).
* Isaiah 45:22-24 - Let all the world look to me for salvation! For I am God; there is no other. I have sworn by my own name, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will confess allegiance to my name.
* God says "let all the world look to me for salvation." Then, to leave no doubt about his ability to achieve what he purposes, to be absolutely clear, he swears by his own name that indeed "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Christ is Lord." And, he will not go back on his word. (Sorry Satan. You lose.)
* The Christian community needs to start having some faith in God. Even Satan believes Jesus Christ exists. But, do Christians have any faith that God will fulfill his oath to mankind?

[VineBranch]

I don't see any copyright threats. My understanding is that it's okay to copy things online if you credit the online source.

Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.  Fair dealing states you use enough, but you can't use the whole thing.  Secondly, what's with all the cut an paste?  Any of these ideas yours?

[misszoolander]

I am sure the author would not mind Lloyd sharing his information,
I've flicked through the website and it seems he wants to spread his message of UR across,
If the information helps (which it has for myself personally) I don't understand why not share it?

Just my  :2c:  :Peace2:

[VineBranch]

If the information helps (which it has for myself personally) I don't understand why not share it?

Why not indeed.  Let's cut and paste entire articles we didn't write.  It takes no effort at all.  Let's substitute thought for copying someone else's words from one place to another, and let's call that research.  Let's not check that it says what we think it says, after all, someone else said it was good.  Above all, let's not bother putting it in our own words so that we can understand it.  Because that way, if someone asks what we mean, we could actually tell them, and maybe use examples and metaphors appropriate to the person to help them understand.  God forbid this pedagogy catch on.

Don't, for pity sake, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2Ti 2:15) when we can but cut and paste and present the image of someone who could.

[misszoolander]

..........................OK.  :surrender:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts VB.

[VineBranch]

NUTS!!

I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to make you feel like it was a battle.  This is supposed to be a UR site and this is definitely a side issue at best.  Please forgive me.

[misszoolander]

It's OK VB, I do see your point, however I myself must admit I am glad Lloyd posted the site at lest, it's not a bad site from what I've seen so far.

Forgiven  :handshake:

[ded2daworld]

I love the site there, was reading there  before Lloyd posted it. I even cut and paste a quote or sentence from there. I do agree with VB though. Discussion forums are for the individuals thoughts that are particpants in the forum. I frankly don't even read stuff that is whole paragraphs cut and pasted. A while back, we had a Jehovah's Witness cutting and pasting from their literature. I'm sure the organization didn't mind at all but that wasn't the point. The JW participant wasn't thinking and didn't even believe in UR, just had his own (the JW)agenda. Lloyd says good enough stuff on his own. :Peace2:

[jabcat]

I think Lloyd shares some insightful things too.  Everyone may not always agree with everything ANY of us says, but often even then, there's a nugget somewhere that's helpful/useful.   :dsunny:

[Lloyd]

I haven't read the entire site there, just those 2 pages so far. But those interested me the most. I found the author's original versions to have a lot of confusing statements, but the overall messages seemed very important, so I tried to pick out the best from them and put the excerpts altogether in a clearer manner. I realize that what's clearer to me may not be to others, but some people probably think similar to the way I do, so I figure it may be helpful for them to see my versions.

I often first go through material like that to see if I can make it clear to me and then, if it seems worthwhile, I often like to share my usually simplified or shortened versions with others. If the author doesn't appreciate my sharing those excerpts from him, I'll consider rewriting them to say the same things in my own words.

[ded2daworld]

That does make it your point of view Lloyd and I can tell you that long, lengthy posts just have too much information for people like me to digest. Spiritual insights can't just be glossed over but contemplated and reflected upon.
I once heard a pastor that gave a series of 8 sermons. This is what he preached for 35 minutes each time:
week 1: For God
week 2: So loved
week 3: the world
week 4: that He gave
week 5: his only begotten son
week 6: that whosoever believeth
week 7: shall not perish
week 8: but have everlasting life

[ded2daworld]

When I first Got saved as I read the new testament, I fell in love with the 17th chapter of John. It is extremely profound. Only 26 verses but I bought a book that expounded on those 26 verses chapter by chapter and was 346 pages long = more than 10 pages per verse! It still is my most favorite chapter to this day. :dsunny: