Ok...this came to me today and I wanted to share it and hear thoughts...
I was with a Christian friend who believes only born again believers are going to heaven and all others are going to hell. She was talking about evangelizing and how she wants to point out when others are in error because if she was in error about a belief she would want someone to point it out to her with scriptural support.
Specifically she was questioning whether or not a person was saved even though this person prays daily and believes in Jesus, because of the denomination the person belongs to. She wanted to point out to them where they are wrong, and did so once before with this person but her attempts at evangelizing fell on deaf ears so to speak.
I have mixed feelings. I said we have to be led by the Holy Spirt otherwise we think we are gathering but we are really scattering. This was my own experience when I had a very brief period of time when I thought I needed to save people and it was just scattering that I accomplished. I was trying to evangelize in a very haphazard way to try to do what is right and please God, but it was all personal effort gone wrong.
Anyway, I also am skeptical about pointing out where others are in error because to me it's a fine line because don't the thousands of Christian denominations think they are right and others are in error? Aren't we all throwing stones at each other thinking we are the ones who are in His favor? Arguing over things like when to water baptize, works vs law vs grace, and ultimately who is in the "in crowd" and who is "out."
I was thinking after the conversation, that what if God allows all of the thousands of denominations, each with some truth and some error mixed in, to show that humanity is imperfect EVEN when we THINK we are doing what God wants? In other words, all human effort fails and God is the source of all and we must rely on Him alone.
So God also allowed the doctrine of hell to creep in because it again shows how wrong we are about His character ("My ways are higher than your ways") and how flawed our thought process is, and how we can't even comprehend infinite unconditional love in our fallen state.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 03, 2016, 04:40:39 AM
Specifically she was questioning whether or not a person was saved even though this person prays daily and believes in Jesus, because of the denomination the person belongs to.
:doh:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 03, 2016, 04:40:39 AM
In other words, all human effort fails and God is the source of all and we must rely on Him alone.
:happyclap:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 03, 2016, 04:40:39 AM
I was thinking after the conversation, that what if God allows all of the thousands of denominations, each with some truth and some error mixed in, to show that humanity is imperfect EVEN when we THINK we are doing what God wants? In other words, all human effort fails and God is the source of all and we must rely on Him alone.
That's a good point. My view as to why God allows thousands of denominations is that, not everybody is psychologically wired to understand God the same way. I often perceive a significant disconnect between what certain Christians claim to believe, and the attitudes they express and live out in their day to day lives. They may believe in doctrines that give me indigestion, but seem to spiritually thrive and carry a positive, uplifting aura. I think that, due to psychological differences, different people may have to believe different things in their minds in order to tap into the same spirit of God that lives in each of them. But obviously, intellectual models for theology have limitations and are partial rather than full truths about God. Where people go awry is when they frame their lives around the deficiencies rather than the core truths found in their models.
I also discussed this issue in a blog post last year:
http://victoryoftheeons.com/2015/05/12/debates-over-doctrine-its-about-more-than-whos-right/
I believe that denominations are usually caused by a ministry, personality or belief that is elevated above Christ Himself:
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1:10-13)
Nowadays, it is "I am of Luther", "I am of Assemblies of God", or "I am of Seventh-Day-Adventist". The irony of denominations is that they often have to keep the focus away from Christ to perpetuate their existence to some degree. What I mean is, if what makes our little religious club different is that we fast on Tuesdays and only eat fish, we are going to be preaching about Tuesdays and fish an awful lot to keep our identity and gain adherents, to the detriment of the ongoing revelation of all things pertaining to Christ.
As far as the OP, which is an interesting one, I believe God for sure allows denominations, but does not validate any division any the body, which is their fruit. He allowed the Jews to go into captivity to Babylon, but the call eventually went out to return to the Holy City, for those who had ears to hear...
:iagree:
Paul says if this life was all there is to why we are here then we should be pitied most of all.
He says, the things seen are temporary, the things not seen are eternal.
Do not be conformed by the things of this age.
Think about heavenly things.
There are ages, plural, to come.
We shall be like Christ.
NEVER mentions hell.
I think part of the dilemma is that we have lots of people deciding spiritual issues in Church, and unfortunately, I have to question if many of them walk in the Spirit, themselves. Of course, none of us are able to totally discern the essence of what the Holy Spirit is teaching us, but it seems sometimes that the priorities of the church might not always coincide with the Spirit.
John 3
1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.a "
4"How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'Youc must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."d
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."
D.
Quote from: Shev on April 04, 2016, 05:09:18 AM
Nowadays, it is "I am of Luther", "I am of Assemblies of God", or "I am of Seventh-Day-Adventist". The irony of denominations is that they often have to keep the focus away from Christ to perpetuate their existence to some degree. What I mean is, if what makes our little religious club different is that we fast on Tuesdays and only eat fish, we are going to be preaching about Tuesdays and fish an awful lot to keep our identity and gain adherents, to the detriment of the ongoing revelation of all things pertaining to Christ.
Yes - I remember my SDA days and hearing a whole sermon on "protecting the borders of your Sabbath." Christ had only an indirect part in it. In other churches, I hear sermons filled with personal stories.
Yes, there's the rub - it is impossible for the body to be divided without it being for a reason other than Christ!
Quote from: Shev on April 04, 2016, 10:43:48 PM
Yes, there's the rub - it is impossible for the body to be divided without it being for a reason other than Christ!
:iagree:
I wrote something about this today before I saw your post Michael.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/faqs-regarding-ur/are-universalists-trinitarians/msg197667/?topicseen#msg197667
Quote from: eaglesway on April 04, 2016, 11:59:04 PM
Quote from: Shev on April 04, 2016, 10:43:48 PM
Yes, there's the rub - it is impossible for the body to be divided without it being for a reason other than Christ!
:iagree:
I wrote something about this today before I saw your post Michael.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/faqs-regarding-ur/are-universalists-trinitarians/msg197667/?topicseen#msg197667
Great post John, and it is always nice for the agreement and unity of the truth in Christ to manifest like that! :dsunny:
I have always found it profoundly prophetic that, in 1 Corinthians 1:12, Paul grouped the people who say "I follow Christ" along with the sectarians. Ever since the Protestant Reformation, there have been people who say that they are tired of all the doctrinal arguments and denominations, and they are just going to go back to the basics and follow the teachings of Christ. But virtually every movement that has begun with that intention has ended up subdividing into multiple sects, as people have different understandings of Christ's teachings and different testimonies of what God has revealed to them.
I have personally come to think that, instead of fighting denominationalism, a better approach is to accept it as a matter of life but avoid making it a source of arrogance. Focus on the common denominators rather than the different numerators.
Quote from: Graph1159 on April 04, 2016, 03:56:42 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 03, 2016, 04:40:39 AM
I was thinking after the conversation, that what if God allows all of the thousands of denominations, each with some truth and some error mixed in, to show that humanity is imperfect EVEN when we THINK we are doing what God wants? In other words, all human effort fails and God is the source of all and we must rely on Him alone.
That's a good point. My view as to why God allows thousands of denominations is that, not everybody is psychologically wired to understand God the same way. I often perceive a significant disconnect between what certain Christians claim to believe, and the attitudes they express and live out in their day to day lives. They may believe in doctrines that give me indigestion, but seem to spiritually thrive and carry a positive, uplifting aura. I think that, due to psychological differences, different people may have to believe different things in their minds in order to tap into the same spirit of God that lives in each of them. But obviously, intellectual models for theology have limitations and are partial rather than full truths about God. Where people go awry is when they frame their lives around the deficiencies rather than the core truths found in their models.
I also discussed this issue in a blog post last year:
http://victoryoftheeons.com/2015/05/12/debates-over-doctrine-its-about-more-than-whos-right/
That makes sense and I have thought that somewhat...I know people who have formed a deep bond with God and Jesus but did so in completely different denominations.
But since the denomination attracts like minded people, it seems like a recipe for group think and an us vs them mentality. I have a Jewish friend who can't understand why Catholics and Protestants think they are so different and argue over theology when they all believe in Jesus.
I have always been an outsider in general so I never found that one denomination that I clung to. When I visited churches they were nice enough but I felt the strong spirit of we are right and I couldn't get into it.
Until I found TM, and now I fellowship here, because of the relative tolerance and humility that you all possess.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 05, 2016, 04:47:04 AM
But since the denomination attracts like minded people, it seems like a recipe for group think and an us vs them mentality. I have a Jewish friend who can't understand why Catholics and Protestants think they are so different and argue over theology when they all believe in Jesus.
I have always been an outsider in general so I never found that one denomination that I clung to.
I agree. Denominations can definitely lead to groupthink. I also think of myself as an outsider.
Hope to share these thoughts with others that come to our minds in times we least expect it ...
By the grace of God we go on ward and up ward in thinking and knowing the LOVE OF GOD WITHIN each and everyone of us all , it is so very personal and individual and necessary to grasp .
To me this is Hell of Gehenna fire and trials of faith being perfected , this world is '' the grave '' of sheol to be lifted up out of the body of death /in Adam , NOW THE CROSS MADE A NEW WAY ,if you can see this is the BODY OF CHRIST now and HOLDS EVERYTHING WITHIN HIMSELF, THE LORD of the dead and the living and HIS FEET '' teaching '' is what subjects us to Him
to learn righteousness by His own grace towards us , Even hell is beautiful , please consider this , we are separated from God by not ''feeling His presence '' which is LOVE , GOD IS LOVE , but we are in the earth with evil and satan and all manner of loss and death constantly , ''conditioned '' to it as everyday
not knowing what will happen if it be evil /, bad or good things , I do believe this is where faith comes in to test us all.
This tiny little seed planted in our hearts is not much to work with at first , but the faith comes by hearing what the FATHER IS SAYING TO US ALL ,
PURE HOLY SPIRIT/ life by PURE HOLY WORD /seed , Being the word of life , it is when we can hear HIM SPEAK to us spiritually , living words and living waters/ voices and know He is near as our hearts door
David said it well Psalms 139 You have Searched Me and Know Me !!!
...7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,...
All the increase of Gods grace is held in the BODY OF CHRIST , as we grow fully into Him as He completes us fully into HIMSELF , GOD IS LOVE and to know love fully by faith you are saved it is the gift of God , and so thankful :HeartThrob:
Thanks Rose :HeartThrob: beautiful as always
In answer to the "Reason for the belief in hell".......it's the religious agenda. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 05, 2016, 05:20:53 PM
In answer to the "Reason for the belief in hell".......it's the religious agenda. :dsunny:
I agree, but I guess I should have put "reason God allows the belief in hell" and my theory was so that no one can have it all correct--those who believe others will go to hell for eternity will have to be corrected in the same way we all will about one thing or another and it will underscore to all of us how wrong we are even when we are trying to do it "right" and therefore we will trust in God even more, knowing He alone is the source of all knowledge and love.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 04, 2016, 06:25:38 PM
Quote from: Shev on April 04, 2016, 05:09:18 AM
Nowadays, it is "I am of Luther", "I am of Assemblies of God", or "I am of Seventh-Day-Adventist". The irony of denominations is that they often have to keep the focus away from Christ to perpetuate their existence to some degree. What I mean is, if what makes our little religious club different is that we fast on Tuesdays and only eat fish, we are going to be preaching about Tuesdays and fish an awful lot to keep our identity and gain adherents, to the detriment of the ongoing revelation of all things pertaining to Christ.
Quote from: Shev on April 04, 2016, 10:43:48 PM
Yes, there's the rub - it is impossible for the body to be divided without it being for a reason other than Christ!
Yes - I remember my SDA days and hearing a whole sermon on "protecting the borders of your Sabbath." Christ had only an indirect part in it. In other churches, I hear sermons filled with personal stories.
:Chinscratch: ...how very true! I hadn't really thought about it that way before.. :iagree: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Graph1159 on April 04, 2016, 03:56:42 AM
That's a good point. My view as to why God allows thousands of denominations is that, not everybody is psychologically wired to understand God the same way.
:iagree:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 03, 2016, 04:40:39 AM
I was thinking after the conversation, that what if God allows all of the thousands of denominations, each with some truth and some error mixed in, to show that humanity is imperfect EVEN when we THINK we are doing what God wants? In other words, all human effort fails and God is the source of all and we must rely on Him alone.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 05, 2016, 05:14:26 PM
Thanks Rose :HeartThrob: beautiful as always
:iagree: