I was reading Randy Alcorns book Heaven and this is what he had to say about his belief in Hell.
"If I had a choice that is if Scripture were not so clear and conclusive I would certainly not believe in Hell. Trust me when I say I do not want to believe in it. But if I make what I want or what others want the basis for my beliefs then I am following of myself and my culture not a follower of Christ."
Anyone care to elaborate on that.
The difference between following Christ or culture isn't about numbers but about facts.
The quote sounds very much like he never studied things himself. He doesn't want to believe in hell but he keeps believing in it because otherwise he would be following culture.
BTW by the Biblical defenition of believing he doesn't believe in hell. Believing is not just accepting something but also agreeing with it.
I believe in hell, also as do many universalist, who I believe the terms restorative universalism is the term applied.
But I think there are many hells in scripture. Tartarus, hades, ghenna, hell fire babtism- anger, inner turmoil hell, cast out in uttter darkness.
I think hades is the term used for an actual kingdom of hell, not sure if I believe it 100% but I think there is an afterlife that is not perfect for those not clothed with christ.
But tartarus a prison for evil spirits, relates with the bottomless pit.
Ghenna I see as physical hell of judgment.
Hell fire, lake of fire a place of penance for the wicked, until they repent.
Inner hell - Most people experience this or all.
outer darkness, gnashing of teeth - something to do with being cast out Gods presence or Gods kingdom and are left outside the city gates.
Quote from: aaronclark1989
If I had a choice that is if Scripture were not so clear and conclusive
Thats just it, the scriptures are NOT so clear and conclusive about hell.
CHB
First of all, I believe "hell" is a made-up word, a mistranslation.
Secondly, I personally don't believe our Father God, Who is Spirit, needs a literal, burning hole to create a spiritual change in His children.
Thirdly, I also believe there is a period of torment for those who need it before they will kneel and confess Jesus as Lord. I just don't believe it's as we've been taught for the past 1500 years.
:cloud9: Me, too.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on December 16, 2011, 01:04:56 AM
First of all, I believe "hell" is a made-up word, a mistranslation.
Secondly, I personally don't believe our Father God, Who is Spirit, needs a literal, burning hole to create a spiritual change in His children.
Thirdly, I also believe there is a period of torment for those who need it before they will kneel and confess Jesus as Lord. I just don't believe it's as we've been taught for the past 1500 years.
What if "that" is our purpose as we're born into "this" realm in the first place? That we must all go through this realm of death in one fashion or another for it to purify our nature, separate the dross from within us and cause us to become even more precious as we go out than we were when we came in. Having abundant life in Christ as we trevail through this realm of death. "This" realm we live in is hell . . .
Some are saved in this life, the "called out ones". I have come to believe they're saved in this life, for the purpose of helping shepherd the rest in later. If someone has lived their whole life, then die without ever being called and kneeling and confessing Jesus as Lord, what brings them to the place of doing so "just" by having lived and died? Seems to me the kolasin aionion Jesus spoke of is "after" this life. But I'm not saying I have it all figured out.
I do believe the "torment" [basinosmos] is spiritual, btw.
What is it that you see being tormented, your spirit or your flesh? If it is my flesh (which for me, I believe it is) then saying it's "spiritual" torment seems to lead to misunderstanding where the torment lies. I think it's as Paul mention about the battle that is continuous in all of us where we know what we should do and don't and know what we shouldn't do and do it anyway . . .the consequences of missing the mark is from my flesh being in misalignment with my spirit . . .my spirit isn't tormented nor is it the tormentor. It's merely the reflective nature God instills in all of us. But our flesh doesn't want to line up with our spirit . . .that's why I'm to take captive my "thoughts". My mind never goes down without a fight because it's carnally driven. Thus the necessity for being renewed.
As mentioned earlier in another thread, I personally don't believe when the Bible talks about "sinful flesh", it means bones, skin, muscle etc. Paul said "in my flesh I can do nothing". By "flesh", I don't believe he was talking about being in his physical body. In another place he said, "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me" [still in his physical body]. I believe it has to do with the sinful nature, the will of man. I believe that can and does exist with or without an actual body of flesh.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rapture_dream_10137.msg133504.html#msg133504
So according to my understanding, I don't believe just because the mass that we call a physical body stops breathing, that means we instantly are somehow made righteous "just" because of that event - physically dying. Again, I believe kolasin aionion is a "next age" event - of shorter or longer duration, depending on whatever amount of basanismos (testing as with a touchstone) it takes before one kneels and confesses Jesus as Lord...few stripes/many stripes. Again though, I believe this is spiritual, and deals with the will of man - neither a literal whip giving lashes, or a literal fire burning people.
It's OK if we undestand it differently. I do like J. Preston Eby's following thoughts;
"We all know that a horse must be broken, that is, its will must be broken before it is of any practical use to man. God put that will in the horse, but it must be broken and made to conform to the will of man. Just as surely did God put the will in man, BUT IT MUST BE BROKEN and we will benefit by the very process of breaking. Man may do a lot of crying and wailing, but when he is broken to HIS will, what a wonderful condition it is. God may take man over some rough places, even through the lake of fire and brimstone, but the love of God will break every man to His will.
If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around. Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."
Quote from: jabcat on December 20, 2011, 02:49:59 AM
Some are saved in this life, the "called out ones". I have come to believe they're saved in this life, for the purpose of helping shepherd the rest in later. If someone has lived their whole life, then die without ever being called and kneeling and confessing Jesus as Lord, what brings them to the place of doing so "just" by having lived and died? Seems to me the kolasin aionion Jesus spoke of is "after" this life. But I'm not saying I have it all figured out.
Yes. To me such a person has unbelief in Jesus. The process of dying, I doubt will increase their faith and without faith it is impossible to please Him. So that's why I think that they will continue to live in darkness in hades, until maybe they repent and are no longer satisfied to live without God, or until the day of judgment when God calls the repears to gather the tares out of hades, to be judged. rev 20
Not saying I got it all figured out though.
Quote from: thinktank on December 21, 2011, 02:48:37 AM
Not saying I got it all figured out though.
Yeah, me neither. I often wonder about the resurrections, too.
Jesus didn't curse Thomas for having to see to believe. He didn't say you will have to spend some time in Hades until you repent. I don't really know whats going on, but we don't need to please God (not that He needs us to please Him), its not like we generate our own faith. Its given to us. I think faith is for this side, seeing is believing for the other side, and who will not believe when they open their eyes and see the Glory. What else can they do but bow their knee, and confess that Jesus is Lord.
Maybe I'm just seeing the end result and missing some in between but I have a pretty clear vision of this.(what I described above)
Thomas repented immediately!
27 Then saith He to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
I noticed that Jesus still tells Thomas not to be faithless, but believe.
Belief requires trust, maybe those in a state of hades don't trust in Jesus,, [but some do trust to a degree of desperation and cry out to him and he meets them (at least that's what some Nders report)]
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30
Quote from: thinktank on December 21, 2011, 08:51:13 PM
I noticed that Jesus still tells Thomas not to be faithless, but believe.
Belief requires trust, maybe those in a state of hades don't trust in Jesus,, [but some do trust to a degree of desperation and cry out to him and he meets them (at least that's what some Nders report)]
We also still have the issue of pre-grave vs. post-grave belief. "However" he did it, Thomas believed in
this life.
On the other "side" of the discussion, i.e., what happens at or after death, Hitler might be one to consider. I personally have a hard time seeing that the act of him just stopping breathing, spiritually rebirthed/saved him. Seems to me like there must be more step(s) to the process.
But I also believe there's much detail we just don't know for sure - we come the closest we can, and know that God knows exactly how to get it done :)
For just like you once were unpersuaded by God, yet now have been shown mercy because of their unpersuadableness, so in the same way these now have become unpersuadable, so that because of this mercy shown to you they also might now be shown mercy. For God has locked up all together in view of their unpersuadableness, so that he might show mercy to all.
Oh the depth of god's riches, wisdom, and knowledge! How unsearchable are His judgments, and how untraceable are His ways! For "Who has known the Master's mind, or who has become His adviser?" Or "Who has first given something to Him, so that he would receive a repayment from Him?" [Job 41:11] Because everything is from Him and through Him and for Him. May He be glorified for the remaining ages! Amen! Romans 11:30-36 The Christian Bible
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2011, 09:55:03 PM
On the other "side" of the discussion, i.e., what happens at or after death, Hitler might be one to consider. I personally have a hard time seeing that the act of him just stopping breathing, spiritually rebirthed/saved him. Seems to me like there must be more step(s) to the process.
But I also believe there's much detail we just don't know for sure - we come the closest we can, and know that God knows exactly how to get it done :)
Beloved's avatar is kind of how I see it. Like I said I have this vision, implanted in my memory, I don't remember when it came.,. We open our eyes to the see the light of His glory, and that radiates out from Him and it washes over us. Burns through us. The covering is burned off of us, like a membrane or something like a shadow, maybe a web, it seems like a net. its hard to tell as this is a very instantaneous picture pieced together from my view and from a third person view. I do know that the light is a blue white emanating from Him. I don't know the time frame of this, could be long or short as its like a snapshot.
Its different from the whitish yellow light I experienced right before the message of UR was given to me.
Isaiah 26:19 - Amplified Bible (AMP)
...For Your dew O Lord is a dew of sparkling light...