Tentmaker Forum

QuoteIsaiah 10:16-22 
Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Is the above signifying 'hell' ?
Is it a 'normal' 24-hour day or just a period of undefined length?

It's not concerning 'Hell'

His hot burning anger will be poured out upon them and reduce them to few in number. Then the remnant will lean on Yahweh.

Anger?  Why would God be mad at us after he already sent a remedy through Christ?

To me, this is proclaiming the coming of Christ to purge and purify.  "in one day" Is Christ.  John received the vision of Revelation on "the Lord's Day" and traditional thinking says it was on Sunday . . .or Saturday, depending on your culture as to when you're to worship.  But for me, John was seeing the day of the Lord.   It is the realm of Truth.  Jesus stated that he was the DAY of the Sabbath, the day of rest.  The seventh day of creation in Genesis is also the same thing, it is the "in Christ" message.

To those who rejected Christ, it is in the form of a day of judgment . . .to purge their carnality from them.  To those who accepted him, it is the day of celebration and fulfillment.  Same day, different affects.  God is a consuming fire . .he consumes the briars, the thorns . .these are symbols of the curses of our flesh . .the irritants of our flesh are being consumed by the purifying and refining fire of the Father through Christ.

That is a "good" thing, not a bad one.

Here's a thinker for ya . . . "if" the lake of fire, (God) is designed to remove the flesh, the carnality from us, does this not also match up with what the Word of God is and does then?

Hebrews 4
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Sounds a lot like the workings of the lake of fire to me.

Dear Nathan, if God is the lake of fire then He is an enemy.

Christ died to save mankind from sin and death, not from needful loving correction.

There are still judgments looming on the horizon for mankind but not for us who are in Christ.

Really?  The enemy?  How can a consuming fire that purges the sin out of you be your enemy?  Considering that the lake of fire is not for eternal torment, right?

Quote from: Nathan on November 07, 2008, 09:40:34 PM
Really?  The enemy?  How can a consuming fire that purges the sin out of you be your enemy?  Considering that the lake of fire is not for eternal torment, right?

Dear Nathan,
All sin is dealt with through the cross of Christ. To the degree that sin is purged out of a person by fire is to the degree that that person does not need Christ.

Right, the lake of fire is not for eternal torment. It is death. Death is an enemy. The Bible says so.
Concerning God being a consuming fire:
"In  (Acts 5:11) we have the effect of this judgment upon the ecclesia and the people, "And great fear came on the whole ecclesia and on all hearing these things." In this kingdom era, through this judgment, all were made to realize that God "is also a consuming fire" (Heb.12:29), and that "it is fearful to be falling into the hands of the living God!" (Heb. 10:31). Shall we not praise God that He has saved us for grace (Eph.2:5), and that He "did not appoint us to indignation, but to the procuring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9)? " (H.W. Martin Unsearchable Riches, vol.16, p.41)

Mark 9:49-50  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire

No idea why; but I more and more get the feeling everyone is going to "hell"
We all have our thorns/weed/sins.
Before we can enter heaven our robes need to be pure white.
None of our robes are pure white.
Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Our sins are going to be burned up. Read teached away with spiritual knowledge.
Our robes get cleaned with the fullers' soap.

Then what the use of Jesus?
I think that by following the guidelines of Jesus you end up in "hell" with a cleaner robe. Then the teaching will be shorter and less 'painful'
Although I don't see "hell" as a BBQ I still see it as something that is best avoided.
So that's one 'use' of Jesus.

The ones 'use' is that without "His ransom for all" we can't pay for the above mentioned soap...

:URWelcome:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2008, 09:00:18 PM

QuoteIsaiah 10:16-22 
Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Is the above signifying 'hell' ?
Is it a 'normal' 24-hour day or just a period of undefined length?

My  :2c: .......

It is GOD's "time" (if there is such a thing!  :laughing7:)... for ALL things are taking place in the DAY of YHVH...

Gen 2:4  These are the GENERATIONS [all generations] of the heavens and of the earth WHEN they were created, in the ...DAY that YHVH made the earth and the heavens...

The "WHEN", that ALL GENERATIONS are made, is in the DAY of YHVH,  ...WITHIN which occur... ALL, the total DAYS of MEN... from its FIRST DAY (of TIME) (Gen 1:5 ) unto its LAST DAY (John 6:44)!!! 

Which total is found to be COMPLETELY encased in "NOW"... 

As is everything else, NOW is the Judgment, NOW is the DAY of Salvation, NOW is the suffering taking place, NOW is DEATH a fact, ...etc

NOW

ALL GENERATIONS take place in the DAY that YHVH makes the earth and the heavens... which is "NOW"

The words Heavens and Earth in Gen 2:4 are in part, applicable not only to the physical heavens and earth, but to ...the "spiritual" heavens and earth... of ALL MEN, throughout history...

Which EACH are being MADE in the IMAGE of YHVH... as CHRIST is REVEALED in ALL to be presented to YHVH by that IMAGE.. which is JESUS CHRIST... that YHVH be ALL in ALL...

Our sufferings and judgment is NOW (John 12:32 - judgment is NOW / Heb 5:8 - JESUS suffered in His life ON EARTH - NOW, as do we - NOW)...

GOD is NOT putting His BELOVED Children, through all this pain, sorrow, suffering and loss, just to give us more of the same afterwards...  :thumbdown:

Certainly NOT, in one (presumed, and "GOD--enacted") "HELL" or another...

Which only amount to FALLEN MAN, visualizing ALMIGHTY YHVH GOD to be as is HE... Judgmental, Unforgiving, Seeking revenge, Unmerciful, etc...  ALL of which are found, absent in the description of LOVE... (1 Cor 13)

Forgive me for naming just a few, ...The COMPLETE list of man's CARNAL and UNSPIRITUAL shortcomings and VENGENT demeanor, is FAR too EXTENSIVE to name in this post...  :sigh:

It is NOT about how much punishment and suffering can be administered ["HELL"], ...it is about the wonderful and ETERNAL IMAGE of GOD, being manifest in EACH of us...  :bowing:  JESUS CHRIST :cloud9:

Dear Nathan,
All sin is dealt with through the cross of Christ. To the degree that sin is purged out of a person by fire is to the degree that that person does not need Christ.

Right, the lake of fire is not for eternal torment. It is death. Death is an enemy. The Bible says so.
Concerning God being a consuming fire:
"In  (Acts 5:11) we have the effect of this judgment upon the ecclesia and the people, "And great fear came on the whole ecclesia and on all hearing these things." In this kingdom era, through this judgment, all were made to realize that God "is also a consuming fire" (Heb.12:29), and that "it is fearful to be falling into the hands of the living God!" (Heb. 10:31). Shall we not praise God that He has saved us for grace (Eph.2:5), and that He "did not appoint us to indignation, but to the procuring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9)? " (H.W. Martin Unsearchable Riches, vol.16, p.41)


First, God and Christ are ONE . . .the lake of Fire is God . . Christ is a dimension of that.  From his mouth a sword will come that will strike the nations . . .the word of God is a refining fire . .the lake of fire is not just from God . .it "is" God.  And God is also Love . . .the purpose of the lake is to refine the carnality of man into righteousness of God.  If your name (identity) is written in the book of Christ (life) the lake of fire is not experienced by you.  It can't be death . .read Revelation 20:14, death is thrown into the lake of fire . . .death can't be thrown into death.  Even separation from God is consumed by God.

Whitewings, you're continuing to focus on the shadows rather than the light.  Of course we all have sin, because we are all still living in these limited and weak fleshly states.  But these things are not as big a problem to God as they are to us.  If they were, God would have immediately removed Paul's thorn.  And the parable of the wheat and tares would have been about the workers going out into the fields and pulling weeds.  

It's the church that has added that you need to follow a code before you can be accepted.  "If" the planter of life is truly in you, then there will be more wheat planted in you than tares.  And it's not the farmers or workers that are to even separate the wheat from tares at the harvest either.  It's the angels . . .or . . .the messengers/message of the gospel.  Hows that work?

If my message brings life, you know it's of God.  If my message brings anything else . .conformity, limitations, warnings, disciplines . .on and on, then you know it's coming from carnality, not God.  

The beauty about God orchestrating from both trees, life and knowledge of good and evil . .is, when you're in the spirit, you can discern what is good and evil, but you're not going to exercise that discernment.  Spiritually, you can see who's mature and who isn't, but just how much would you accomplish if you went to the spiritually immature person and explained to him how immature he was?  God obviously knew nakedness isn't appropriate, yet he never forced Adam to live by that.  It was Adam who chose to live in that realm and as such, God was then separated because Adam chose to use the sword to divide spirit and soul rather than leave that to the Lord.  How in the world did I get into that . . .

Oh . . .dealing with focusing on where my wrongs are versus my rights.  If God is returning us to our origin in the garden, then we should also relinquish this attempt to weld a sword that wasn't really ours in the first place.  Let the Word of God do the dividing without my natural reasoning to pervert the propper way of dividing flesh from spirit.

What's the use of Jesus?  God has a destiny for everyone of us to manifest His glory on this earth.  Until wel come to the cross, this destiny will never be realized.  There is a place that is so far beyond our comprehension that even when you enter it, you still can't grasp it's vastness, let alone explain it to anyone else.  But the door of grace still has already prepared to receive us into it, but without acknowledging Christ is my Messiah, I will never be able to know what it's like to go through tribulation with a glow on my face.  I'll never have sustaining peace of mind.  I'll never stop worrying about the next catastrophy that may or may not happen.  I'll have no hope, period.

The church has used the threat of hell to try to build a relationship with Love . . . I still can't say that without smirking.  Oh . .that reminds me, this thought struck me a little earlier today.  In Acts 26 Paul is presented before a king . . .including all of the pomp and circumstance that goes along with that.  And he had the floor to testify to this king his beliefs.  And as important of a meeting as this was . . .NOT ONCE did Paul even HINT at the idea that it's either Jesus or hell.  Not once.

If Paul never felt impressed to influence the king to repent or go to hell . . .how is it that the church we have now can't think about anything else "but" that?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2008, 10:20:30 PM
Mark 9:49-50  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire
No idea why; but I more and more get the feeling everyone is going to "hell"

Nope not everyone is going to hell. You need to read more Scripture than to make your conclusion based on two Scriptures taken out of context. Salted with fire, versus being thrown into fire is two different things. Everyone is salted with fire, but some are saved being thrown to the fire.

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 01:42:46 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2008, 10:20:30 PM
Mark 9:49-50  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire
No idea why; but I more and more get the feeling everyone is going to "hell"

Nope not everyone is going to hell. You need to read more Scripture than to make your conclusion based on two Scriptures taken out of context. Salted with fire, versus being thrown into fire is two different things. Everyone is salted with fire, but some are saved being thrown to the fire.

Hi WhiteWings,

I think it's a stage that many Christian Universalists go through.  I was definitely there for a while.  Elhanan Winchester is even accused of having taught that (http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/elhananwinchester.html), although I've never read where he's supposed to have ever said it in print, if he ever did.  But there's still a couple of things that he wrote that I haven't read yet.  I haven't found very many copies in exceptional condition of his Lectures on the Prophecies that Remain to be Fulfilled that have been less than $1200 although we're only talking about a two book set.  I really want to read those, though, because I'm having doubts that he was Premillenial from what I have read of his stuff, although there's a website or two that'll dogmatically assert that he was Premillenial.

All have the threat hanging over their heads of going to Hell if they blow off His commands to diligence, fruitfulness, and some other things.  St. Paul's writings even include a step by step plan for not inheriting the Kingdom (1Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21).  J. Preston Eby's writings put the guy who buried his talent in the Lake of Fire.  Not sure if there's a translational "out" from that.  The passage that he bases that on does seem to say that!  *gulp!* :icon_jokercolor:  I'm personally trying to avoid doing all of the things that the New Testament even remotely implies could involve being shoved into the Apocalyptic Volcano.  Salvation is by grace through faith, but at the same time the New Testament says not to jack around with those things, so I'm not going to tempt fate.  If it's nothing more than unanswered prayer in this life and the gifts of the spirit failing to fully produce when I stretch my faith as far as it'll go expecting the Holy Spirit to add His to the end and complete the transaction if mine's not enough, then that's more than enough Hell for me to dodge because I need my prayers answered, I need the devil cast out when I rebuke him in the Name of Jesus, and I need the infirmed well when I lay my hands on them.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2008, 10:20:30 PMNo idea why; but I more and more get the feeling everyone is going to "hell"

Everyone is "tried" in fire (which is going on NOW)... and ALL are destined for the DIRT NAP, which is what "HADES" actually means... (GRAVE - for you sophisticates)...

So in the "GRAVE" sense, ...ALL are headed there per GOD's WORDS:  ...dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return...

No FIREY torture of any kind to come...  :thumbdown:

HELL of ANY KIND, for ANY DURATION, ...is nothing but a FEAR doctrine which does not have a place in the GOSPEL of LOVE...

Only the "FIRE" of the SHAME of NAKEDNESS (Rev 3:18), which those shall appear in which do not have the GARMENT of CHRIST, concerning the report of their lives...  :dontknow:

Adam & Eve endeavored to HIDE their OPEN SHAME, unsuccessfully...  but GOD made clothing GARMENT (Gen 3:21) for them, which removed their anxieties of NAKEDNESS... and DOES so for ALL humans to this day!   :laughing7:

QuoteHELL of ANY KIND, for ANY DURATION, ...is nothing a FEAR doctrine which does not have a place in the GOSPEL of LOVE...

Traveling at 50 miles an hour on the highway, you pass by a large bright yellow-black checkered sign says, 'Dead End'. A thought passes your mind, this highway looks great and I cannot see the end, even though you pass by a large orange sign with white letters, "Warning, this road ends in One mile, please take detour."

You scoff at the sign, "I am not afraid, I am too smart for that." You may even think, "This is nothing but fear propaganda, I am not afraid of any dead end. Why would there be a highway if there was danger. It is just some government bulls**t trying to keep me in submission and fear so they can control me and my actions."

One mile later, your car flies into the air into a sharp ravine and for 5 seconds you see your end and think, "Why didn't I listen to the warning? That warning was not to cause fear, but to save me from this end." Your car crashes head first, you are whipped so hard that all the tendons in your neck rip from your bones and just as instant, the car steering wheel along with the entire engine pushes through your rib cage and your heart bursts open. You go into instant shock, but small conscience remains unable to speak or express itself, and for twelve seconds, you sit in horror watching your blood flow around you. It is the longest twelve seconds you ever experience, it lasts for what seems like eternity but then it finishes.

Warnings, and consequences of ignoring warnings is not 'FEAR' doctrine, they are INDEED out of LOVE because LOVE ALWAYS PROTECTS! Warnings do not come out of "FEAR", they come out of wisdom and protection concerning the things that do harm us, or the actions that will end with undesirable consequence.

If you believe that warnings are out of fear, then that thought is out YOUR insecurity and YOUR denial that there are actually dangers in our life that we have been warned against. If this is you, it is you who is UNABLE in distinguish between reality and your belief system, fact versus imagination, truth versus denial.

We all reap what we sow, there is a warning of the consequence and if it is not heeded, you WILL experience it in full force not experiencing any salvation from it. Though you endure such consequence but such consequence is not infinite in duration and will end and that end is the salvation for one who endures such consequence, a salvation assured by our Lord Jesus Christ. Then there are people who adhere to the warning and are saved such consequence because they never experience it, their salvation was found in their obedience. Like you, they will be with the Lord in the end, though unlike you instead of experiencing that consequence you must endure, they reigned with Him for a time working with the Lord to deliver you from your ignorance and disobedience.

NOTE TO EVERYONE:

1 Timothy 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Warning of what? The warning that those who continue to sin, will be broken off just from the blessings of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived....

Ephesians 5:5
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

If anyone teaches you to ignore warnings, do not listen! Warnings are not to cause fear they are statements of the fact there is danger to those who don't listen to them. You must run from those who teach you to ignore warnings, because it is their conscience has been seared and they have lost their sense unable to distinguish between good and evil. The blind leading the blind and they will not only fall but bring many down with them.

Hell is not a perpetual torture pit, nor is it inflicted by God. It is self-induced and birthed through the man who continues to live in disobedience. Even if there is no 'hell', there most certainly is the knowledge and understanding that you missed out and did not inherit the kingdom of God due to your disobedience. This part, can be called hell, is most definitely not a desired outcome. Though your salvation is to experience the Kingdom of God, you experience it as one with no inheritance in the outer courts of the Kingdom of heaven never able to enter into the inner courts and the Holy of Holies where those who have kept themselves clean may enter.

It is still an amazement to me how the revelation of Universal Redemption has brought an ignorance to the things which are without question have have severe warnings to stay away from. It is a befuddlement how the message of Universal Salvation has brought the stupid into people to forget everything that they were taught previously throwing the baby out with the bathwater. For those ignorant and stupid people, I pray that their eyes may be opened to the evil that they have exposed themselves to and have snared other to follow and repent and renew their clean their minds and accept a new heart.

Craig

Fear and wisdom of things that are harmful are two different things. 

I suppose it would not be love to teach my kids to respect fire so that they do not get burned, burn someone else or kill someone.

I do not use this example flippantly,  down the street a woman and her two kids were burned alive in her home.  Unfortunatly she was a woman who did not believe in disciplining her kids because she did not want them afraid of everything.  It's the same type of reasoning my friend comes up with along with other things.  Anything he can find to say that there is no reason to change.  Thats not the gospel of love.

You can instill a type of fear that may seem scary but is indeed a respect for life and good things and it is healthy.  It is different that a horror filled picture of eternal doom and burning flesh that is just a teaching to appease the monster.

This idea that life is all warm and fuzzy because a person is comfortable in thier belief while tragedy and sin abound around them is a watered down gospel and might as well be a doctrine of complacency.

There is absolutly no reason for such verses in the bible that are warnings to do right, rewards for doing right  and warnings of discipline for not doing right.  Love is INDEED to warn us of the danger, not to make us feel good about the crap around us everyday and in our own lives.

The fuzzy wuzzy doctrine is exactly why my friend, whether he would "immediatly" get healed or not otherwise,  has completly given up trying to change.  Saying God just wants him to do that is ridiculous, and contradicts scripture.

That is right Paul. A gospel of love that preaches no repentance, is not a gospel of love. Repentance means to change, and if there is no change, not prize to strive for, then it is not the Gospel but complacency and those who teach this, are salt that has lost it's saltiness.

Luke 14:33-35
"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 01:42:46 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2008, 10:20:30 PM
Mark 9:49-50  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire
No idea why; but I more and more get the feeling everyone is going to "hell"

Nope not everyone is going to hell. You need to read more Scripture than to make your conclusion based on two Scriptures taken out of context. Salted with fire, versus being thrown into fire is two different things. Everyone is salted with fire, but some are saved being thrown to the fire.

When I write about hell I'm writing about something I have no real picture of how it looks.
But it's not the classic hell with a devils, demons and literal fire.

Craig: I listed 2 verses of the about 30 I have where God is represented as a fire. Perhaps all taken out of context but still I see God being mentioned/linked to fire in all those verses. Many of them seem to point to a 'cleaning activity'. Cleaning that might be unpleasant but will turn out in the most positive way. Aren't those warnings the 'dead end' warning signs of your example?
And if you ignore them you will crash aka end up in "hell"? And there being salted with fire because they refused during life?

I simply try to say if everything is love, happiness, fuzzy feelings, etc, etc why are there any warnings in the Bible?
All taken out of context too?

Quote from: Nathan on November 08, 2008, 01:14:57 AM
Whitewings, you're continuing to focus on the shadows rather than the light.  Of course we all have sin, because we are all still living in these limited and weak fleshly states.  But these things are not as big a problem to God as they are to us.  If they were, God would have immediately removed Paul's thorn.  And the parable of the wheat and tares would have been about the workers going out into the fields and pulling weeds.

When focussing on the shadow the focus is automaticly also on the light.
When someone enters "hell" s/he is a shadow but will leave as a light.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 08, 2008, 03:22:21 AM
I'm personally trying to avoid doing all of the things that the New Testament even remotely implies could involve being shoved into the Apocalyptic Volcano.  Salvation is by grace through faith, but at the same time the New Testament says not to jack around with those things, so I'm not going to tempt fate. 

Because I take verses out of context why not do the same with posts  :laughing7:

Martin, I see some warnings in your post. "not jack around", "shoved into the Apocalyptic Volcano". "tempt fate"
You also wrote positive things but lets as Nathan calls it focus on the shadow.
Tempting fate sounds like something negative to me. The concequeces of it will be the volcano (=hell)
So where am I wrong when I write about "hell"/shadow/correction/teaching?

Ladies and gentlemen,

Glad this turned out another heated/hellish discussion; but please also try to focus a little on the "1 day" part.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 11:55:08 AM
Ladies and gentlemen,

Glad this turned out another heated/hellish discussion; but please also try to focus a little on the "1 day" part.

ww the answer  to the title of this thread for mine is YES...

As
Christ IS this DAY.... :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on November 08, 2008, 01:48:17 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 11:55:08 AM
Ladies and gentlemen,

Glad this turned out another heated/hellish discussion; but please also try to focus a little on the "1 day" part.

ww the answer  to the title of this thread for mine is YES...

As
Christ IS this DAY.... :icon_flower:

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2008, 01:50:17 PM

Quote from: Taffy on November 08, 2008, 01:48:17 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 11:55:08 AM
Ladies and gentlemen,

Glad this turned out another heated/hellish discussion; but please also try to focus a little on the "1 day" part.

ww the answer  to the title of this thread for mine is YES...

As
Christ IS this DAY.... :icon_flower:

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

IS Salvation and Judgment through ANY OTHER.....?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed """""""""""""""""""""all """"""""""""""""""""""judgment unto the Son[/u]

WAS ""THIS DAY"""" the ONLY Day of salvation....?..IF SO WE MISSED IT,therefore YOUR FAITH is in vain sister

2Cr 6:2 For He says: ["In an acceptable time I have heard you,] [And in the day of salvation I have helped you."]* Behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.


1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:


1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.


1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" unto you: """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Who IS THE END we recieve Molly, for the salvation of OUR SOULS?IS not Christ "The beginning and the END?

A DAY is Likened to a THOUSAND yrs, LIKENED to The tree of LIFE,likened to  THE END ,Likened to etc etc....which means they are the same...There ALL Christ Molly.

we been through this before....and before..and before.... :icon_flower:

This day is every day.





6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

--Psalm 40





16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
      because he has anointed me
      to preach good news to the poor.
   He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
      and recovery of sight for the blind,
   to release the oppressed,
    19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

--Luke 4



8For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

9And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

10I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

11For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

--Isa 61

No answer Molly :HeartThrob:

WW, all for mine is done in ONE DAY.,,As I believe the Scriptures testify


Molly..
what  Judgment does the LORD LOVE?..thoughts?

Quote8For I the LORD love judgment

1You people are in for trouble! You have made cruel and unfair laws 2that let you cheat the poor and needy and rob widows and orphans. 3But what will you do when you are fiercely attacked and punished by foreigners? Where will you run for help? Where will you hide your valuables? 4How will you escape being captured  or killed? The Lord is still angry, and he isn't through with you yet!

5The Lord says:
   I am furious! And I will use the king of Assyria as a club 6to beat down you godless people. I am angry with you, and I will send him to attack you. He will take what he wants and walk on you like mud in the streets. 7He has even bigger plans in mind, because he wants to destroy many nations. 8The king of Assyria says:

   My army commanders are kings! 9They have already captured  the cities of Calno, Carchemish, Hamath, Arpad, Samaria, and Damascus. 10-11The gods of Jerusalem and Samaria are weaker than the gods of those powerful nations. And I will destroy Jerusalem, together with its gods and idols, just as I did Samaria. 12The Lord will do what he has planned against Jerusalem and Mount Zion. Then he will punish the proud and boastful king of Assyria, 13who says:

   I did these things by my own power because I am smart and clever. I attacked kings like a wild bull, and I took the land and the treasures of their nations. 14I have conquered the whole world! And it was easier than taking eggs from an unguarded nest. No one even flapped a wing or made a peep.

    15King of Assyria, can an ax or a saw overpower the one who uses it? Can a wooden pole lift whoever holds it? 16The mighty LORD All-Powerful will send a terrible disease to strike down your army, and you will burn with fever under your royal robes. 17The holy God, who is the light of Israel, will turn into a fire, and in one day you will go up in flames, just like a thornbush. 18The Lord will make your beautiful forests and fertile fields slowly rot. 19There will be so few trees that even a young child can count them.



20A time is coming when the survivors from Israel and Judah will completely depend on the holy LORD of Israel, instead of the nation  that defeated them. 21-22There were as many people as there are grains of sand along the seashore, but only a few will survive to come back to Israel's mighty God. This is because he has threatened to destroy their nation, just as they deserve. 23The LORD All-Powerful has promised that everyone on this earth  will be punished. 24Now the LORD God All-Powerful says to his people in Jerusalem:

   The Assyrians will beat you with sticks and abuse you, just as the Egyptians did. But don't be afraid of them. 25Soon I will stop being angry with you, and I will punish them for their crimes.  26I will beat the Assyrians with a whip, as I did the people of Midian near the rock at Oreb. And I will show the same mighty power that I used when I made a path through the sea in Egypt. 27Then they will no longer rule your nation. All will go well for you,  and your burden will be lifted. 28Enemy troops have reached the town of Aiath. They have gone through Migron, and they stored their supplies at Michmash, 29before crossing the valley and spending the night at Geba. The people of Ramah are terrified; everyone in Gibeah, the hometown of Saul, has run away. 30Loud crying can be heard in the towns of Gallim, Laishah, and sorrowful Anathoth. 31No one is left in Madmenah or Gebim. 32Today the enemy will camp at Nob  and shake a threatening fist at Mount Zion in Jerusalem. 33But the LORD All-Powerful

   will use his fearsome might

   to bring down the tallest trees

   and chop off every branch.

    34With an ax, the glorious Lord

   will destroy every tree

   in the forests of Lebanon.

---Isa 10

Quote from: Taffy on November 08, 2008, 02:31:18 PM
WW, all for mine is done in ONE DAY.,,As I believe the Scriptures testify

QuoteYOM
day, time, year
day (as opposed to night)
day (24 hour period)
*as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
*as a division of time
a working day,
a day's journey,
lifetime
period (general)
temporal references
*today
*yesterday
*tomorrow

Quote<2250> h`me,ra (hemera)
Meaning: day
Origin: a prim. word
Usage: always*(1), another(1), court(m)(1), daily*(10), day(208), daybreak(1), day's(1),days(148), daytime(2), midday*(1), time(m)(12), years(m)(3).

The word day becomes useless if it has so many meanings.
If we take the verse literally a day could mean anything between 12 hours and almost forever.

QuoteHoly One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Is one really about the number of days?  1-2-3-4-...
Or is it a prediction that on a certain unmentioned date some event will (start to) take place?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 03:16:00 PM

QuoteHoly One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Is one really about the number of days?  1-2-3-4-...
Or is it a prediction that on a certain unmentioned date some event will (start to) take place?

Don't underestimate the power and righteousness of God.

Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

QuoteThe word day becomes useless if it has so many meanings.
If we take the verse literally a day could mean anything between 12 hours and almost forever.

Jhn 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

OK molly we will go this way..same END :icon_flower:

what day May I ask was This  DAY then MoLLy ..Just another 12 hrs?....lest bear in mind..Christ said NOTHING lest it be in Parables...

Jhn 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Who be the ""LIGHT"""OF THE world Molly?

Jhn 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." .

Those who walk In the """"""""DAY""""""""""also walk IN the """LIGHT"""""""""" and THOSE who walk in the Light are these Molly.

Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.

Again MOLLY...as the scrips testify one to another...Christ is THIS DAY, THIS LIGHT....The DAY of Salvation, which is the same DAY Given BY The Father to the SON, IN WHICH """""""""""""all """"" men will be judged.

.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 03:16:00 PM

QuoteHoly One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Is one really about the number of days?  1-2-3-4-...
Or is it a prediction that on a certain unmentioned date some event will (start to) take place?

as ya probabaly know ww ..thorns and Briers are used often as metaphor for""""""SIN"""...and I now of only ONE covering for then Bro.

Isa 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Quote from: Taffy on November 08, 2008, 03:43:59 PM

QuoteThe word day becomes useless if it has so many meanings.
If we take the verse literally a day could mean anything between 12 hours and almost forever.

Jhn 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

OK molly we will go this way..same END :icon_flower:

what day May I ask was This  DAY then MoLLy ..Just another 12 hrs?....lest bear in mind..Christ said NOTHING lest it be in Parables...

Jhn 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Who be the ""LIGHT"""OF THE world Molly?

Jhn 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." .

Those who walk In the """"""""DAY""""""""""also walk IN the """LIGHT"""""""""" and THOSE who walk in the Light are these Molly.

Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.

Again MOLLY...as the scrips testify one to another...Christ is THIS DAY, THIS LIGHT....The DAY of Salvation, which is the same DAY Given BY The Father to the SON, IN WHICH """""""""""""all """"" men will be judged.

.

Yes, Christ is the day, the Light, the bright and morning star,  by which all men will be judged.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.



But--


Proverbs 8:34
Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

QuoteYes, Christ is the day, the Light, by which all men will be judged.

why Thank you for a second witness Molly.. :icon_flower:

ya hear that WW..

Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?......AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Theres No buts  MOLLY.....NO BUTS AT ALL.


start another thread with ya But if ya wish :icon_flower:

Blessings sis :icon_flower:
T

well, there is a but--it is the warning that SOTW speaks of--

God is longsuffering and puts up with alot from us, but when he shuts the door, it is shut--


1The promise to enter the place of rest is still good, and we must take care that none of you miss out. 2We have heard the message, just as they did. But they failed to believe what they heard, and the message did not do them any good. 3Only people who have faith will enter the place of rest. It is just as the Scriptures say,

   "God became angry

   and told the people,

   `You will never enter

   my place of rest!' "


--Heb 4



Therefore, Choose life.

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2008, 04:08:07 PM
well, there is a but--it is the warning that SOTW speaks of--

God is longsuffering and puts up with alot from us, but when he shuts the door, it is shut--


1The promise to enter the place of rest is still good, and we must take care that none of you miss out. 2We have heard the message, just as they did. But they failed to believe what they heard, and the message did not do them any good. 3Only people who have faith will enter the place of rest. It is just as the Scriptures say,

   "God became angry

   and told the people,

   `You will never enter

   my place of rest!' "


--Heb 4

Ive not read Craigs thoughts ....

IRRESPECTIVE....all MEN will be Judged in one day...that Day BEING CHRIST

1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

--Mat 25



5My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips:

6When I remember thee upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night watches.

7Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.

--Psa 63

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2008, 04:18:53 PM
1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

--Mat 25



5My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips:

6When I remember thee upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night watches.

7Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.

--Psa 63

Sorry Molly..I did edit my last post not to detract from WWW Thread...

Theres ONLY one way through the DOOR molly.....TIS OIL....and who do you think that OIL is?

notice how they were ALL asleep in DARKNESS....?

Speaks of the Goats and Sheep Molly,  the goats  are Likened for mine to the very Donkey Christ rode into Jerusalem...The sheep enter by the gate....

therefore the DOOR is shut for such goats , theives, menstealers, Flesh, those who dwell in the OLD C, those in Darkness but remain,etc..

Quote from: Taffy on November 08, 2008, 01:48:17 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 11:55:08 AM
Ladies and gentlemen,

Glad this turned out another heated/hellish discussion; but please also try to focus a little on the "1 day" part.

ww the answer  to the title of this thread for mine is YES...

As
Christ IS this DAY.... :icon_flower:

Taffy,
I took your quote but it's also about several posts that followed.
Most/all seem to agree it lasts one day (of Christ)
But I see, or at least I think I see, different opinions on the exact duration of that day.
Now please use 'normal time' as we have it on our human clock. So no Einsteins relativity theory and that that kind of stuff.
It's only drawing away from the real point. When I speak about hell I'm not atlking about the BBQ. Not about satan with a pitchfork. Just a name for something I have no clue about how it looks/feels/smells/tastes/sound...

I read for example everything past, present, future of the universe we know is 'the day of the Lord'
I can accept that. That would mean that day has lasted 6000 years (YEC) or 14.7 billion years (science) until now. Plus an unknow duration will be added. (ages get fulfilled and uncreated). To avoid a fight over old and young earth I'll call it a very long time.
Others seem to say that one day will be of short duration. 12 hours.
I see also people hinting there is no 'hell' in afterlife and that hell is now. That would mean 'the day' lasts a lifetime. Around 70-90 years in most cases.

Before reading the verse one could think hell last forever. Or 5 billion years. Or perhaps just 1 seconds.
After reading the verse it looks like the answer is found. It's 1 day.
Then the interpretations follow and we're back a where we started. Somewhere between a day and the age of the universe.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 06:42:02 PM

Quote from: Taffy on November 08, 2008, 01:48:17 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 11:55:08 AM
Ladies and gentlemen,

Glad this turned out another heated/hellish discussion; but please also try to focus a little on the "1 day" part.

ww the answer  to the title of this thread for mine is YES...

As
Christ IS this DAY.... :icon_flower:

Taffy,
I took your quote but it's also about several posts that followed.
Most/all seem to agree it lasts one day (of Christ)
But I see, or at least I think I see, different opinions on the exact duration of that day.
Now please use 'normal time' as we have it on our human clock. So no Einsteins relativity theory and that that kind of stuff.
It's only drawing away from the real point. When I speak about hell I'm not atlking about the BBQ. Not about satan with a pitchfork. Just a name for something I have no clue about how it looks/feels/smells/tastes/sound...

I read for example everything past, present, future of the universe we know is 'the day of the Lord'
I can accept that. That would mean that day has lasted 6000 years (YEC) or 14.7 billion years (science) until now. Plus an unknow duration will be added. (ages get fulfilled and uncreated). To avoid a fight over old and young earth I'll call it a very long time.
Others seem to say that one day will be of short duration. 12 hours.
I see also people hinting there is no 'hell' in afterlife and that hell is now. That would mean 'the day' lasts a lifetime. Around 70-90 years in most cases.

Before reading the verse one could think hell last forever. Or 5 billion years. Or perhaps just 1 seconds.
After reading the verse it looks like the answer is found. It's 1 day.
Then the interpretations follow and we're back a where we started. Somewhere between a day and the age of the universe.

Rom 9:28  For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rom 9:28 
    For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth
       quickly and with finality."[12]

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

literally,

The Jewish War began in 66 AD and culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70.

http://latter-rain.com/ot/jewar.htm

Quote from: TaffyTheres ONLY one way through the DOOR molly.....TIS OIL....and who do you think that OIL is?

The anointing of the Holy Spirit.


10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

--Mark 1




And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
      because he has anointed me
      to preach good news to the poor.
   He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
      and recovery of sight for the blind,
   to release the oppressed,
    19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

--Luke 4




7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

--Psalm 40

QuoteCraig: I listed 2 verses of the about 30 I have where God is represented as a fire. Perhaps all taken out of context but still I see God being mentioned/linked to fire in all those verses. Many of them seem to point to a 'cleaning activity'. Cleaning that might be unpleasant but will turn out in the most positive way. Aren't those warnings the 'dead end' warning signs of your example?
And if you ignore them you will crash aka end up in "hell"? And there being salted with fire because they refused during life?

I simply try to say if everything is love, happiness, fuzzy feelings, etc, etc why are there any warnings in the Bible?
All taken out of context too?

Hello WW, I had a big explaination for you but my computer crashed. It is always like this, everytime I have a large post that has many points, my computer crashes or my web browser crashes. I lie to you not, this is the only times I have computer problems!

Any ways, the Gospel is not fuzzy feelings. Joy, love, and peace, although evoking emotion, are not based out of fuzzy feelings. A man who lives by his emotions, a man who listens to a fuzzy feeling gospel, is a man who is self-centered.

Not all fire is God. Read Isaiah 33 and James 3. Some fire is mankind himself, through his own spirit and tongue he ignites the continual hay and straw that he continually births and therefore has the course of his life in continual burning, set ablaze. Not all fire serves the same purpose. Fire used for: Light, cleansing, and let us not destruction.

A man who refuses to be cleansed through the salting fire, will be set ablaze by their own fire until there is nothing left. The measure of such a man, is the man Jesus speaks of who has had his Talent taken from him and thrown into outer darkness.

There is reason why warnings are given, we can either enter the Kingdom of God through the narrow gate which leads to life, or we can enter the Kigndom of God through the wide gate that leads to destruction. We can either reign with Him for 1000 years, or remain dead until the 1000 years is complete. We can have access to the innercourts, or live in the outercourts. Just because hell is not perptual does not mean there is no negative to living an unrepentant sinful life refusing to submit to God to change you.

Quote from: Zeek on November 08, 2008, 06:50:33 PM
Rom 9:28  For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rom 9:28 
    For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth
       quickly and with finality."[12]

Indeed, short doesn't sound like a billion years.
It sounds like an hour. Or a day.
But then there are verses that state a 1000 years is like 1 day for me (God)

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 08:30:01 PM
Hello WW, I had a big explaination for you but my computer crashed. It is always like this, everytime I have a large post that has many points, my computer crashes or my web browser crashes. I lie to you not, this is the only times I have computer problems!

Maybe that's a sign to shut up Craig!  :laughing7:
Just a joke Craig!
I mostly type my stuff in my email client because it spell-checks. It also autosaves. The autosave could be an option for you too...?

QuoteNot all fire is God. Read Isaiah 33 and James 3. Some fire is mankind himself, through his own spirit and tongue he ignites the continual hay and straw that he continually births and therefore has the course of his life in continual burning, set ablaze. Not all fire serves the same purpose. Fire used for: Light, cleansing, and let us not destruction.

I can fully agree with that. But when speaking about fire that I think are pointing to God I see things a little different.
The fire of man might be destructive/bad/etc.
The fire of God indeed can be love. But also pain/correction. But with the aim to, as I call it, make someone ready for Heaven.
So yes I see different kinds of fire in the Bible and even different kind in God. But those in/of God work toward a positive goal.
How? I absolutely have no idea!

QuoteA man who refuses to be cleansed through the salting fire, will be set ablaze by their own fire until there is nothing left. The measure of such a man, is the man Jesus speaks of who has had his Talent taken from him and thrown into outer darkness.

I would like a little more explanation on this. If possible without verses.

QuoteThere is reason why warnings are given, we can either enter the Kingdom of God through the narrow gate which leads to life, or we can enter the Kigndom of God through the wide gate that leads to destruction. We can either reign with Him for 1000 years, or remain dead until the 1000 years is complete. We can have access to the inner courts, or live in the outercourts. Just because hell is not perptual does not mean there is no negative to living an unrepentant sinful life refusing to submit to God to change you.

I think I can agree on that too.
But an additional question.
Can someone in the afterlife work himself from the outer to the inner courts?
Being 1000 years alive or dead doesn't mean much to me. Even if I would be dead for eternity. The dead know nothing. So I'm not aware I'm missing out on something.

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 08:30:01 PM
Any ways, the Gospel is not fuzzy feelings. Joy, love, and peace, although evoking emotion, are not based out of fuzzy feelings. A man who lives by his emotions, a man who listens to a fuzzy feeling gospel, is a man who is self-centered.

I agree.  Violation of God's laws results in a self judgment of "no good".  The reaction to this is to set out on a mission to avoid like "hell" being our self imposed judgment and we then attach to events that make us feel good.    

We seek to avoid any experience that reinforces our "no good judgment".  This requires tremendous effort, and puts layers of "fig leaves" upon us.  When something "good" happens or we do something "good", (something that makes us "feel OK") we attach to that and develop a false illusion of peace and joy.  Our identity becomes entangled in our "works".  IMO, dirty rags of self righteousness.  

True joy and peace; that which "passes understanding" imo; comes from embracing the "good/evil" in us, the positive and the negative emotions;  Coming before our Father humbled and naked.

From this point, we REST.  We rest from our heavy laden burden.

Mat 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

When we understand we are God defined; LOVE, JOY and PEACE flow from within outward.

Joh 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2008, 09:02:55 PM

Quote from: Zeek on November 08, 2008, 06:50:33 PM
Rom 9:28  For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rom 9:28 
    For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth
       quickly and with finality."[12]

Indeed, short doesn't sound like a billion years.
It sounds like an hour. Or a day.
But then there are verses that state a 1000 years is like 1 day for me (God)

Dont let throw ya Bud...

You may find , An HOUR, A DAY , A Month, A season , Times ......mean appointed TIMES.....


Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power , That POWER WW ,again IS CHRIST.

Again, Judgment comes in "THE DAY"(Christ), IN an Hour , of an Appointed time.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.


1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Luk 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.


Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Getting the picture some Bud


Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men


Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

A 1000yrs are LIKENED to a DAY, and that DAY is Christ....

ya cant read Scripture entirely like ya read Dickens.... :icon_flower:

 good thoughts  Bro G !  :HeartThrob:
  yes the Day / the Lord  is at hand ..  in power  :winkgrin:

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

You seem to wish to debate me again... well... you shall have an answer to your wish...  :shakepoint:

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMWarnings, and consequences of ignoring warnings is not 'FEAR' doctrine, they are INDEED out of LOVE because LOVE ALWAYS PROTECTS! Warnings do not come out of "FEAR", they come out of wisdom and protection concerning the things that do harm us, or the actions that will end with undesirable consequence.

If HELL is FEARFUL (which proposition is the very MEAT or essence of its "WARNING"), and it is proposed by LOVE which states its PERFECT state as WITHOUT FEAR (1 John 4:18), ...it is thereby found to be a contradiction in terms no matter how you might endeavor to garnish it with PROTECTIVE "WARNINGS"...

This is no more than a distractive and (supposedly deserved) PUNITIVE teaching which ALSO goes against the COINCIDING instructions to FORGIVE enemies...  BLESS them that curse you... and continues to remain in the realm which was prior to those teachings...  It is preaching that GOD, by His decisions have either DRAWN or NOT DRAWN men to Himself, and then BLAMING them for not being DRAWN, and PUNISHING them accordingly...  What NONSENSE!  :thumbdown:

It is CONTRARY that GOD should BLAME men, whom He DID not choose to HEAR, ...for NOT HEARING...   :mshock: 

GOD is doing this very process (during which MEN are helpless to name themselves as HEARERS or NOT HEARERS) ...to show OPPOSITIONS to GRACE and LOVE... You blindly see what your ego desires instead of what SPIRITUAL teaching is actually within the WORDS of GOD...

To teach that future or "afterlife" PUNISHMENT is the destiny for ANYONE, beyond this life, is CONTRARY to the SPIRITUAL understandings of what THIS LIFE is all about presenting!  ...believe and PROMOTE what you will... you will either find SHAME or REWARD for it...  :dontknow:  Seeya at the end...  :Chinscratch:

I prefer to TEACH of the complete VICTORY of LOVE which is WITHOUT regard to CLAY, one lump or another...  :happygrin:

You prefer to WARN of LOVE's impending ANGER... which is DUE those not given to HEAR... by Him that "GAVE OUT" the "ears"...  :rolleye:

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMIf you believe that warnings are out of fear, then that thought is out YOUR insecurity and YOUR denial that there are actually dangers in our life that we have been warned against. If this is you, it is you who is UNABLE in distinguish between reality and your belief system, fact versus imagination, truth versus denial.

:Yeahright:  Backatcha sotw...  CHRIST was not warning of PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT to come, and I believe YOU are the one, OFTEN in DENIAL...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMWe all reap what we sow, there is a warning of the consequence and if it is not heeded, you WILL experience it in full force not experiencing any salvation from it.

PHYSICAL for physical, SPIRITUAL for SPIRITUAL...  :dontknow:

CHRIST is a SPIRITUAL clothing that benevolently masks deeds from SHAME, not a fire retardant suit.

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMThough you endure such consequence but such consequence is not infinite in duration and will end and that end is the salvation for one who endures such consequence, a salvation assured by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again... you try to TIE God to TIME... by giving His administration "DURATIONS" of it to further bind men beyond the grave... missing the points made in the SPIRIT...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMThen there are people who adhere to the warning and are saved such consequence because they never experience it, their salvation was found in their obedience. Like you, they will be with the Lord in the end, though unlike you instead of experiencing that consequence you must endure, they reigned with Him for a time working with the Lord to deliver you from your ignorance and disobedience.

JESUS did NOT say:   Go WARN everyone about HELL... and BTW, tell them I died for the SINS that THEY will have to PAY FOR if they don't hear your WARNING... :rolleye:

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMNOTE TO EVERYONE:

1 Timothy 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Warning of what? The warning that those who continue to sin, will be broken off just from the blessings of God.

NOTE TO EVERYONE:

This is just an ADDITION which is made and assumed (to fit this ones belief), to the writing of PAUL that IS NOT STATED THERE... these words are according to sotw...

GOD causes the RAIN to fall on the JUST ...AND... the UNJUST... and the "JUST" are just, the "UNJUST" which have been GIVEN the ears to HEAR what JUSTICE actually IS... GRACE is the JUSTICE of GOD... (Rom 5:18-20) ...GRACE gives EARS to Hear its JUSTICE...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AM1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived....

Again missing the point... the KINGDOM of GOD is NOW... the "wicked" do not partake of it HERE and NOW...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMEphesians 5:5
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

:director:  ditto to what I just mentioned above to the prior listed verse...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMIf anyone teaches you to ignore warnings, do not listen! Warnings are not to cause fear they are statements of the fact there is danger to those who don't listen to them. You must run from those who teach you to ignore warnings, because it is their conscience has been seared and they have lost their sense unable to distinguish between good and evil. The blind leading the blind and they will not only fall but bring many down with them.

CHRIST instructed to make DISCIPLES of men to His Apostles... He gave no instructions to WARN of "HELL", in ANY DURATION or ANY FORM...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMHell is not a perpetual torture pit, nor is it inflicted by God. It is self-induced and birthed through the man who continues to live in disobedience.

:Yeahright:  This is but a statement which is DEVOID of FAITH, ...and only serves to display MAN, DICTATING to GOD -- that MAN has "birthed" his own torment, apart FROM and OVER His POWER to give men to avoid it... :mnah:

"IT" does not exist... "IT" is the perpetuation of the evil mindset of MAN which fails to KNOW what LOVE is, nor HOW it works... and what LOVE's PURPOSE is in this realm...

LOVE appears within the HEARTS that IT chooses to APPEAR... and is the EXAMPLE which shall be presented in RESURRECTION to all those that were NOT CHOSEN... to their BOWING of KNEE, and CONFESSING of TONGUE... NOT to BLAST them in some "afterlife furnace"...

It is the FIRE of TRUTH which exposes the deeds of MEN to ITSELF... and, just as happened with YOU when you realized your SINFULNESS sotw... they TEARFULLY drop to the knee, and confess the TRUTH of their LORD to the GLORY of HIS LOVE!

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMEven if there is no 'hell', there most certainly is the knowledge and understanding that you missed out and did not inherit the kingdom of God due to your disobedience.

:laugh:  The swami has spoken...  You think to have knowledge which OFTEN  overestimates itself...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMThis part, can be called hell, is most definitely not a desired outcome. Though your salvation is to experience the Kingdom of God, you experience it as one with no inheritance in the outer courts of the Kingdom of heaven never able to enter into the inner courts and the Holy of Holies where those who have kept themselves clean may enter.

Where is your beloved FIRE?

You know NOTHING of my experience... and SHALL NOT... I have been down a road you have YET to travel... Teach HELL if you wish... you will find out in the end, your SHAME for doing so...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMIt is still an amazement to me how the revelation of Universal Redemption has brought an ignorance to the things which are without question have have severe warnings to stay away from. It is a befuddlement how the message of Universal Salvation has brought the stupid into people to forget everything that they were taught previously throwing the baby out with the bathwater. For those ignorant and stupid people, I pray that their eyes may be opened to the evil that they have exposed themselves to and have snared other to follow and repent and renew their clean their minds and accept a new heart.

Craig

Let me IGNORE the CONDESCENDING WORDS above, which fall into the meaninglessness from which they emerged, and address the WARNING portion...

The GOSPEL is NOT a WARNING... ADAM & EVE were NOT WARNED, neither were any WARNED of HELL in the Old TESTAMENT...

JESUS did not come to bring NEW TEACHING, He came to REVEAL and FULFILL what the OLD TESTAMENT had noted SPIRITUALLY within its given PHYSICAL premises...

Even the "warnings" done of FLOOD of NOAH was not about ALL but 8 "HEARING" and LIVING... it was about that those who DO NOT HEAR (NOT given EARS to HEAR), will continue in IGNORANCE and DIE in the SIN in which they are IMMERSED... and that ONLY the "ARK" of GOD's LOVE (CHRIST) can SAVE ANY MAN, from the FLOOD of SIN which proposes to take their LIVES FROM THEM...

Or the SMEARING of the BLOOD of the Lamb over the doorstep of their HEARTS, shall cause DEATH to pass by and be INEFFECTIVE in its endeavor!

You are more than welcome to promote HELL Craig... ga-head!  But you (and all your ET buddies) shall find and FACE the sorrowful SHAME for doing so...

It is NOT, and NEVER WAS, nor ever WILL BE, a part of LOVE... no matter how YOU might try to deduce it...  :teaching:  ...and then, subsequently PROMOTE it...  :sigh:

It is NOT in LINE with SIN "taken away"... or "not IMPUTED"... believe what you will...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Taffy on November 08, 2008, 09:33:15 PM
Dont let throw ya Bud...

You may find , An HOUR, A DAY , A Month, A season , Times ......mean appointed TIMES.....

Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

That was clear to me. The mentioned times vary a lot in duration.

QuoteAct 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power , That POWER WW ,again IS CHRIST.

Seems to work out as intended. I have no clue about time. Besides when it's time for a drink. And that's always now  :laughing7:

QuoteAgain, Judgment comes in "THE DAY"(Christ), IN an Hour , of an Appointed time.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Luk 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Aren't those verses just saying we do not know when that time 'starts'?
And tell nothing about the duration?

QuoteRev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

So 'the city' is destroyed within an hour but the angels continue to kill for another 13 months.
Is the city really some city or something spiritual?

Quoteya cant read Scripture entirely like ya read Dickens....

Feels a bit like Manuel studying an English Bible  :laughing7:
(in the dark)

QuoteFeels a bit like Manuel studying an English Bible 

Que?

Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2008, 12:00:56 AM

QuoteFeels a bit like Manuel studying an English Bible 

Que?

In The words Of Basil"let me explain Manuel.....This(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/anatomie/corps037.gif) SLAP on Head :laughing7:

QuoteAren't those verses just saying we do not know when that time 'starts'?

And tells us Nothing of the Duration?[/quote]

All Things are Fulfilled In HIM Bud, Tis His plan of Salvation... in That DAY being HIM

QuoteRev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 
So 'the city' is destroyed within an hour but the angels continue to kill for another 13 months.
Is the city really some city or something spiritual?

Im at a Loss with 13 Months Bud...maybe i missed it :dontknow:...

For mine ,a City can be  likened to an Individual( Gen 4;17  Ecc 7:19   )...as In Man, being Flesh( heart and Mind= soul= carnal mind),, likened to Babylon, likened to Old Jerusalem , Likened to the Old C, Locked outside The veil...In this case, the City Detroyed for mine, is The carnal Mind..which is enmity ..

Replaced BY a NEW CITY, being HIS Body( Heart and Mind) , New Jerusalem , the City of ANGELS being the Church,,,Tis spiritual for mine Bud... :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on November 09, 2008, 12:30:13 AM

QuoteRev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 
So 'the city' is destroyed within an hour but the angels continue to kill for another 13 months.
Is the city really some city or something spiritual?

Im at a Loss with 13 Months Bud...maybe i missed it :dontknow:...

1 year + 1 month + 1 day

Quote

...

1 year + 1 month + 1 day

Drr.....Maybe it could be ONE appointed Time covering MAN.....Four has also a meaning in scripture,Creation, WORLD, Earth ,..., I dont see it as 13 months , nor seperate times...

Quote from: willieH on November 08, 2008, 10:52:07 PM
willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

You seem to wish to debate me again... well... you shall have an answer to your wish...  :shakepoint:

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMWarnings, and consequences of ignoring warnings is not 'FEAR' doctrine, they are INDEED out of LOVE because LOVE ALWAYS PROTECTS! Warnings do not come out of "FEAR", they come out of wisdom and protection concerning the things that do harm us, or the actions that will end with undesirable consequence.

If HELL is FEARFUL (which proposition is the very MEAT or essence of its "WARNING"), and it is proposed by LOVE which states its PERFECT state as WITHOUT FEAR (1 John 4:18), ...it is thereby found to be a contradiction in terms no matter how you might endeavor to garnish it with PROTECTIVE "WARNINGS"...

This is no more than a distractive and (supposedly deserved) PUNITIVE teaching which ALSO goes against the COINCIDING instructions to FORGIVE enemies...  BLESS them that curse you... and continues to remain in the realm which was prior to those teachings...  It is preaching that GOD, by His decisions have either DRAWN or NOT DRAWN men to Himself, and then BLAMING them for not being DRAWN, and PUNISHING them accordingly...  What NONSENSE!  :thumbdown:

It is CONTRARY that GOD should BLAME men, whom He DID not choose to HEAR, ...for NOT HEARING...   :mshock: 

GOD is doing this very process (during which MEN are helpless to name themselves as HEARERS or NOT HEARERS) ...to show OPPOSITIONS to GRACE and LOVE... You blindly see what your ego desires instead of what SPIRITUAL teaching is actually within the WORDS of GOD...

To teach that future or "afterlife" PUNISHMENT is the destiny for ANYONE, beyond this life, is CONTRARY to the SPIRITUAL understandings of what THIS LIFE is all about presenting!  ...believe and PROMOTE what you will... you will either find SHAME or REWARD for it...  :dontknow:  Seeya at the end...  :Chinscratch:

I prefer to TEACH of the complete VICTORY of LOVE which is WITHOUT regard to CLAY, one lump or another...  :happygrin:

You prefer to WARN of LOVE's impending ANGER... which is DUE those not given to HEAR... by Him that "GAVE OUT" the "ears"...  :rolleye:

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMIf you believe that warnings are out of fear, then that thought is out YOUR insecurity and YOUR denial that there are actually dangers in our life that we have been warned against. If this is you, it is you who is UNABLE in distinguish between reality and your belief system, fact versus imagination, truth versus denial.

:Yeahright:  Backatcha sotw...  CHRIST was not warning of PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT to come, and I believe YOU are the one, OFTEN in DENIAL...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMWe all reap what we sow, there is a warning of the consequence and if it is not heeded, you WILL experience it in full force not experiencing any salvation from it.

PHYSICAL for physical, SPIRITUAL for SPIRITUAL...  :dontknow:

CHRIST is a SPIRITUAL clothing that benevolently masks deeds from SHAME, not a fire retardant suit.

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMThough you endure such consequence but such consequence is not infinite in duration and will end and that end is the salvation for one who endures such consequence, a salvation assured by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again... you try to TIE God to TIME... by giving His administration "DURATIONS" of it to further bind men beyond the grave... missing the points made in the SPIRIT...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMThen there are people who adhere to the warning and are saved such consequence because they never experience it, their salvation was found in their obedience. Like you, they will be with the Lord in the end, though unlike you instead of experiencing that consequence you must endure, they reigned with Him for a time working with the Lord to deliver you from your ignorance and disobedience.

JESUS did NOT say:   Go WARN everyone about HELL... and BTW, tell them I died for the SINS that THEY will have to PAY FOR if they don't hear your WARNING... :rolleye:

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMNOTE TO EVERYONE:

1 Timothy 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Warning of what? The warning that those who continue to sin, will be broken off just from the blessings of God.

NOTE TO EVERYONE:

This is just an ADDITION which is made and assumed (to fit this ones belief), to the writing of PAUL that IS NOT STATED THERE... these words are according to sotw...

GOD causes the RAIN to fall on the JUST ...AND... the UNJUST... and the "JUST" are just, the "UNJUST" which have been GIVEN the ears to HEAR what JUSTICE actually IS... GRACE is the JUSTICE of GOD... (Rom 5:18-20) ...GRACE gives EARS to Hear its JUSTICE...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AM1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived....

Again missing the point... the KINGDOM of GOD is NOW... the "wicked" do not partake of it HERE and NOW...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMEphesians 5:5
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

:director:  ditto to what I just mentioned above to the prior listed verse...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMIf anyone teaches you to ignore warnings, do not listen! Warnings are not to cause fear they are statements of the fact there is danger to those who don't listen to them. You must run from those who teach you to ignore warnings, because it is their conscience has been seared and they have lost their sense unable to distinguish between good and evil. The blind leading the blind and they will not only fall but bring many down with them.

CHRIST instructed to make DISCIPLES of men to His Apostles... He gave no instructions to WARN of "HELL", in ANY DURATION or ANY FORM...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMHell is not a perpetual torture pit, nor is it inflicted by God. It is self-induced and birthed through the man who continues to live in disobedience.

:Yeahright:  This is but a statement which is DEVOID of FAITH, ...and only serves to display MAN, DICTATING to GOD -- that MAN has "birthed" his own torment, apart FROM and OVER His POWER to give men to avoid it... :mnah:

"IT" does not exist... "IT" is the perpetuation of the evil mindset of MAN which fails to KNOW what LOVE is, nor HOW it works... and what LOVE's PURPOSE is in this realm...

LOVE appears within the HEARTS that IT chooses to APPEAR... and is the EXAMPLE which shall be presented in RESURRECTION to all those that were NOT CHOSEN... to their BOWING of KNEE, and CONFESSING of TONGUE... NOT to BLAST them in some "afterlife furnace"...

It is the FIRE of TRUTH which exposes the deeds of MEN to ITSELF... and, just as happened with YOU when you realized your SINFULNESS sotw... they TEARFULLY drop to the knee, and confess the TRUTH of their LORD to the GLORY of HIS LOVE!

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMEven if there is no 'hell', there most certainly is the knowledge and understanding that you missed out and did not inherit the kingdom of God due to your disobedience.

:laugh:  The swami has spoken...  You think to have knowledge which OFTEN  overestimates itself...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMThis part, can be called hell, is most definitely not a desired outcome. Though your salvation is to experience the Kingdom of God, you experience it as one with no inheritance in the outer courts of the Kingdom of heaven never able to enter into the inner courts and the Holy of Holies where those who have kept themselves clean may enter.

Where is your beloved FIRE?

You know NOTHING of my experience... and SHALL NOT... I have been down a road you have YET to travel... Teach HELL if you wish... you will find out in the end, your SHAME for doing so...

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 07:17:23 AMIt is still an amazement to me how the revelation of Universal Redemption has brought an ignorance to the things which are without question have have severe warnings to stay away from. It is a befuddlement how the message of Universal Salvation has brought the stupid into people to forget everything that they were taught previously throwing the baby out with the bathwater. For those ignorant and stupid people, I pray that their eyes may be opened to the evil that they have exposed themselves to and have snared other to follow and repent and renew their clean their minds and accept a new heart.

Craig

Let me IGNORE the CONDESCENDING WORDS above, which fall into the meaninglessness from which they emerged, and address the WARNING portion...

The GOSPEL is NOT a WARNING... ADAM & EVE were NOT WARNED, neither were any WARNED of HELL in the Old TESTAMENT...

JESUS did not come to bring NEW TEACHING, He came to REVEAL and FULFILL what the OLD TESTAMENT had noted SPIRITUALLY within its given PHYSICAL premises...

Even the "warnings" done of FLOOD of NOAH was not about ALL but 8 "HEARING" and LIVING... it was about that those who DO NOT HEAR (NOT given EARS to HEAR), will continue in IGNORANCE and DIE in the SIN in which they are IMMERSED... and that ONLY the "ARK" of GOD's LOVE (CHRIST) can SAVE ANY MAN, from the FLOOD of SIN which proposes to take their LIVES FROM THEM...

Or the SMEARING of the BLOOD of the Lamb over the doorstep of their HEARTS, shall cause DEATH to pass by and be INEFFECTIVE in its endeavor!

You are more than welcome to promote HELL Craig... ga-head!  But you (and all your ET buddies) shall find and FACE the sorrowful SHAME for doing so...

It is NOT, and NEVER WAS, nor ever WILL BE, a part of LOVE... no matter how YOU might try to deduce it...  :teaching:  ...and then, subsequently PROMOTE it...  :sigh:

It is NOT in LINE with SIN "taken away"... or "not IMPUTED"... believe what you will...  :dontknow:

peacE...

willieH    :angel5:

Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



fear

G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Quote from: SOtW on November 08, 2008, 09:51:45 AM
That is right Paul. A gospel of love that preaches no repentance, is not a gospel of love. Repentance means to change, and if there is no change, not prize to strive for, then it is not the Gospel but complacency and those who teach this, are salt that has lost it's saltiness.

No one is arguing this... The GOSPEL teaches REPENTENCE because GOD is in the process of CHANGING the individual... the POT doesnt make itself... the POTTER does the "making"...

ALL are concluded BY GOD, in UNBELIEF... and NO ONE knows ALL the TRUTH... so any portion of the TRUTH, which we are not aligned with, is found based in UNBELIEF... 

Which is WHY John taught his listeners to not SAY they were without sin, for that is LIE (1 John 1:8)... and IS BASIS for REPENTENCE to be an ON-GOING thing... PAUL agreed with JOHN, read Romans 7...

REPENTENCE is NOT something "YOU or I decide to preach",  and thereby WE are "doing the deed"... :mnah:

GOD, shall use us to preach it... otherwise the "REPENTENCE" taught is NOT of Him... but of ourselves... and if it is of ourselves, then it is taught in VAIN...

REPENTENCE comes from the LEADING of GOD:

Rom 2:4   ...or despiseth thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, NOT KNOWING that the GOODNESS OF GOD, ...LEADETH thee TO REPENTENCE?

Without the LEADING of GOD... there is NO REPENTANCE... It is neither done nor TAUGHT...  GOD must be present in BOTH, the TEACHER and the STUDENT for it to be REALIZED...  It is NOT "manufactured" of the will of MEN to accomplish... (either in teaching or learning)

There is no "salt" unless the Creator of the "salt" instills it within the recipient...

The GOSPEL that is born of those who wish to take CREDIT for their teaching of "repentance" is that which CHRIST names as INIQUITY and IS found DONE by group here identified:

Matt 7: 22-23 

22 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven...

23  Many will SAY to me IN that DAY [Day of YHVH - which is NOW] "have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name, [have not WE] cast out devils? and in Thy Name [have not WE] DONE many wonderful works?  ...

23  And then [in that DAY - which is NOW] will I profess to THEM[to them which maintained they are  CREDITED for this] I never knew you, depart from Me, ..ye that WORK INIQUITY...

I will have no part of this group... GOD either uses my words, or He does not... I desire no credit for those which might be REPENTENT one way or the other...

I do not demand them to REPENT... I pray for them to REPENT... Giving the LORD the floor to do HIS WILL... either He shall give them EARS to HEAR, and they REPENT... or HE does NOT give them EARS... and they REPENT NOT!

In either case... It is HIS DECISION... and it is HIS WORK... As for me, ...I remain an INSTRUMENT at most... and am thankful and BLESSED, for that humility... just an arm or leg, or mouthpiece, yielded to HIM for His use and desire...

Believe what you will...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AM
Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



fear

G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

I will get back 2ya tomorrow on this post Zeek... have to go to work... just wanted you to know that I was not ignoring this post!  :wink3:

The letter of JUDE you quote says many more things than you herein might percieve...  :OhNo:

WillieH....My point is already made, your rebuttal has no substance and I find no reason to discuss it further.

Quote from: SOtW on November 09, 2008, 04:38:55 AM
WillieH....My point is already made, your rebuttal has no substance and I find no reason to discuss it further.

Yeah, I'd leave it alone right there 'cause it's just another trip into the free will thread that got closed the other day.  That's what it bottomlines in.  You're both in agreement on Repentance.  But at this point the discussion teeters on the difference between Charles Finney's "The reason God said to repent was because you could repent" and his critics that would say that only in the moment of God's actually telling a total reprobate to repent was the actual ability granted to repent.  This will jump off the deep end on "circular" on both sides of this if either of you don't realize you've been down this road before with each other. 

A lot of Charismatic preachers [that aren't even UR] have gotten into the thing about not preaching repentance except when they feel lead because they've seen all of the abuses with condemnation and sin consciousness and particularly to a generally Western audience, many of them have it still ringing in their ears from some point in their lives.  And what they're needing to hear is what to repent unto rather than what to repent from.  Not totally sure that I agree with that approach, but my own calling is a little different than that of others and I realize that certain areas of doctrine like that wind up wandering into the nature of specific callings in the Body and get sticky on trying to dogmatize a standard approach to.

willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

I will be just lightly touching on this SHORT but DEEP book you have quoted below... and [hopefully] make my viewpoint of FEAR [as NOT a PART of the GOSPEL] a valid one in that process...

As I noted with the FLOOD of NOAH... most focus in on the the 8 SAVED instead of the BALANCE of mankind which was NOT SAVED... and there is JUST as much POINT being made in that account [story] if not MORE, concerning the BALANCE which were LOST to DEATH, as the ones [temporarily] SAVED in LIFE...

Those SAVED in the FLOOD did not die... then!  But they met death elsewhere... the FLOOD account was a picture of SPIRITUAL premises, not just a PHYSICAL account of a PHYSICAL tragedy...

So within this writing, Jude makes like premises known as well... and to be totally honest, I do not PRETEND to KNOW them ALL... I have many times admitted to being a "backyard mechanic" type concerning the gaining and communicating of my beliefs (more like Peter, ...not Paul!) ...so please forgive this somewhat GENERAL and, clumsy answer!   :blush: 

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AM
Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

So lets begin here Zeek... The suggestions here note that NATURAL MAN, is essentially a "BRUTE BEAST", which names him CARNAL in his "understanding" [know in verse 10]... and IN that CARNALITY is the CORRUPTIVE essence of that state...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AMJud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Here, Jude is suggesting that that CARNAL state is destined for DARKNESS that is NOT intended to be a part of LIGHT... rather it is destined to be CAST AWAY by the LIGHT, for it has no PURPOSE in ETERNITY as a PART or PORTION of it...

CARNALITY is existent and ACTIVE, for THIS LIFETIME in TIME, not for ETERNITY...  this LIFETIME is a FIRE... in which we are IMMERSED, as JESUS "golden testimony" is noted as having been tried IN FIRE (Rev 3:18)... His "trials" took place HERE, in the flesh...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AMJud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

More about the issue that, the practice of UNGODLINESS (which is what CARNALITY is)... has no place in that which pemeates FOREVER...  Carnality practiced, has a purpose... that purpose is ENACTED NOW... and when it is fulfilled in ALL, shall be jettisoned as a PRACTICE, but FOREVER remain and serve to GLORIFY GOD as the opposing PRINCIPLE to HIS GLORY... MAGNIFYING that GLORY!

As many know, I recently had cancer surgery... that pain and suffering and life threatening issue, only serves to MAGNIFY the WORK of SICKNESS and SORROW that GOD has delivered me from!  I therefore PRAISE Him for that experience, because I am found in the blessing of HEALTH which He has restored in me...

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AMJud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

At long last we arrive at the "NUTS & BOLTS" (backyard mechanic jargon!  :laughing7:) ...of this answer...  :laughhand:

You have ZEROED IN on the word FEAR in quoting these verses... and below noted the DEFINITION of the Greek word PHOBOS, to make a point that FEAR is contained in the message of the GOSPEL... which I have obviously OBJECTED to - eh?  :dontknow:

I have maintained that FEAR [PHOBOS] is NOT a part or portion of the GOSPEL, and here (in Jude), it appears to be a part, which is WHY you propose it to be so...

If the true understanding is that WE as GOD's messengers are to be FEARFUL [phobos] as we, under His direction and INFLUENCE, are "saving" these out of the "FIRE", and are doing this IN FEAR [phobos]...

Then I propose that LOVE which is GOD, ...is an INCOMPLETE or IMPERFECT element in that message, for the SCRIPTURE states that FEAR [phobos, noted 3, actually "4" times] is NOT a PART of LOVE...

If it is NOT a PART of LOVE, how can it be an ELEMENT of the MESSAGE of LOVE Zeek?

I believe that on the surface you see FEAR [phobos] as an element NECESSARY to the message, whereas... it is obvious to me that the MESSAGE which is proposed by the GREATEST part of Christianity, uses FEAR in that message as a prompting to others. ...to embrace the message!  [HELL & torment]

I further believe that this SURFACE understanding of FEAR as an integral PART, is that which CORRUPTS the message being delivered... because the Apostle John says THIS:


1 John 4:18  there is NO FEAR [phobos] ...IN... LOVE, but PERFECT [complete] LOVE, ...CASTETH OUT, ...FEAR [phobos] because ...FEAR [phobos]... hath TORMENT.  He that FEARETH [phobeo - from phobos], is NOT MADE PERFECT [complete], ...in LOVE --  [GOD is LOVE]...


So if FEAR is an element present in the messenger... then that messenger is NOT found complete in LOVE, which is GOD... (1 John 4:8)  :dontknow:

If one is delivering a message which CONTAINS FEAR... (which HELL & torment DEFINITELY DOES), then the message itself is NOT PERFECT, for LOVE casts OUT FEAR... and if FEAR is present in the message, then the message is corrupted BY IT, for it is not found CAST OUT.

If FEAR is casted OUT of the "messenger", then it is no longer a PART of the "messenger",  ...and if no longer a PART of the "messenger",  ...how can it be PART of His message?  :omg:

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AMJud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



fear

G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Well... I believe I have made my point about the appearance and [IMO] misunderstanding of the this word [phobos] in Scripture... as it is applied to the message of the GOSPEL of LOVE [GOD] (1 Thes 2:9)  and PEACE (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15)

What "PEACE" is found in FEAR Zeek?

You are more than welcome to disagree with what I have said, brother Zeek...  :dontknow:

Quote from: SOtW on November 09, 2008, 04:38:55 AM
WillieH....My point is already made, your rebuttal has no substance and I find no reason to discuss it further.

That is your opinion, you are more than welcome to it... ET believers say the same thing about UR...  :dontknow:

This is fine with me... we have both made our points... let them be considered by the readers as either valid or invalid...  :dontknow:

In any event, GOD's WORK is HIS... not mine, not yours... let Him use that which He has ordained as INSPIRED and TRUE... which potentially, could be neither of us...  :laughing7:

You didn't show any points to be considered. So it is fine with me as well.

Quote from: SOtW on November 09, 2008, 11:57:24 PMYou didn't show any points to be considered. So it is fine with me as well.

:Yeahright:  Says you...   :laughing7:

You didn't "see" any...   :cool:  ...doesn't surprise me...   :pitiful:

Try taking your shades off!    :winkgrin:

Quote from: willieH on November 10, 2008, 12:01:58 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 09, 2008, 11:57:24 PMYou didn't show any points to be considered. So it is fine with me as well.

:Yeahright:  Says you...   :laughing7:

peacE...

willieH  :violin:

No not says me, Jesus had some hard words for those who caused little ones to fall, he told them it was better they commit suicide. You speak with authority, but have little authority behind those words. That isn't fear brother, that is a warning of the reality and you are denial.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 12:05:15 AM

Quote from: willieH on November 10, 2008, 12:01:58 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 09, 2008, 11:57:24 PMYou didn't show any points to be considered. So it is fine with me as well.

:Yeahright:  Says you...   :laughing7:

peacE...

willieH  :violin:

No not says me, Jesus had some hard words for those who caused little ones to fall, he told them it was better they commit suicide. You speak with authority, but have little authority behind those words. That isn't fear brother, that is a warning of the reality and you are denial.

We'll see... I have no FEAR in my heart, nor in the MESSAGE I present to others of GOD and HIS GOSPEL...  :upset:  To note FEAR in the message of PEACE is mixing oil & water...  bitter & sweet... contrary, ineffective and CONFUSED... 

I have LOVE in my heart (even for you!)...  :HeartThrob: ...and THAT, dear brother... IS my MESSAGE!  :cloud9:

You are not the determining factor of "AUTHORITY"... God is... and I ALWAYS present HIS WORDS to verify what I propose in my beliefs... :yes:

That you do not choose to observe them, is your prerogative... which is irrelevant to me...  :dontknow:

Concerning "denial"... that is pretty much all you do... :pitiful: :sigh:

Craig and Willie. :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Lets not see this thread go the ways of Others before it... :HeartThrob:

either CONTINUE your scriptural discourse or guys , please  stay stum. :icon_flower:

For mine guys, Theres NO fear in the Gospel....

but like most terms within scripture theres seems to be a Negative and Postive.

Zeek,

QuoteJud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Cant help but come to think of those of LAW yet again Bro.

Those who eat Unworthy have No FEAR....TIS for Mine this fear they Have NOT.

Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding

Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether.

Psa 34:11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:


Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsel [is] mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength.


Pro 14:26 In the fear of the LORD [is] strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.


Pro 14:27 The fear of the LORD [is] a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

and there are many more bro,,,theres always a negative and a Postive..and as Craig often quotes..we read with the spirit of LOVE, not DEATH


Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Got to watch that wording bro..and Dont always rely on those translators.... :icon_flower:


The Fear ,they in JUDE rescued from the FIRE, for Mine is this...they rescued OUT of FEAR,.

Quote from: willieH on November 09, 2008, 11:21:54 PM
willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

I will be just lightly touching on this SHORT but DEEP book you have quoted below... and [hopefully] make my viewpoint of FEAR [as NOT a PART of the GOSPEL] a valid one in that process...

As I noted with the FLOOD of NOAH... most focus in on the the 8 SAVED instead of the BALANCE of mankind which was NOT SAVED... and there is JUST as much POINT being made in that account [story] if not MORE, concerning the BALANCE which were LOST to DEATH, as the ones [temporarily] SAVED in LIFE...

Those SAVED in the FLOOD did not die... then!  But they met death elsewhere... the FLOOD account was a picture of SPIRITUAL premises, not just a PHYSICAL account of a PHYSICAL tragedy...

So within this writing, Jude makes like premises known as well... and to be totally honest, I do not PRETEND to KNOW them ALL... I have many times admitted to being a "backyard mechanic" type concerning the gaining and communicating of my beliefs (more like Peter, ...not Paul!) ...so please forgive this somewhat GENERAL and, clumsy answer!   :blush: 

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AM
Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

So lets begin here Zeek... The suggestions here note that NATURAL MAN, is essentially a "BRUTE BEAST", which names him CARNAL in his "understanding" [know in verse 10]... and IN that CARNALITY is the CORRUPTIVE essence of that state...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AMJud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Here, Jude is suggesting that that CARNAL state is destined for DARKNESS that is NOT intended to be a part of LIGHT... rather it is destined to be CAST AWAY by the LIGHT, for it has no PURPOSE in ETERNITY as a PART or PORTION of it...

CARNALITY is existent and ACTIVE, for THIS LIFETIME in TIME, not for ETERNITY...  this LIFETIME is a FIRE... in which we are IMMERSED, as JESUS "golden testimony" is noted as having been tried IN FIRE (Rev 3:18)... His "trials" took place HERE, in the flesh...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AMJud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

More about the issue that, the practice of UNGODLINESS (which is what CARNALITY is)... has no place in that which pemeates FOREVER...  Carnality practiced, has a purpose... that purpose is ENACTED NOW... and when it is fulfilled in ALL, shall be jettisoned as a PRACTICE, but FOREVER remain and serve to GLORIFY GOD as the opposing PRINCIPLE to HIS GLORY... MAGNIFYING that GLORY!

As many know, I recently had cancer surgery... that pain and suffering and life threatening issue, only serves to MAGNIFY the WORK of SICKNESS and SORROW that GOD has delivered me from!  I therefore PRAISE Him for that experience, because I am found in the blessing of HEALTH which He has restored in me...

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AMJud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

At long last we arrive at the "NUTS & BOLTS" (backyard mechanic jargon!  :laughing7:) ...of this answer...  :laughhand:

You have ZEROED IN on the word FEAR in quoting these verses... and below noted the DEFINITION of the Greek word PHOBOS, to make a point that FEAR is contained in the message of the GOSPEL... which I have obviously OBJECTED to - eh?  :dontknow:

I have maintained that FEAR [PHOBOS] is NOT a part or portion of the GOSPEL, and here (in Jude), it appears to be a part, which is WHY you propose it to be so...

If the true understanding is that WE as GOD's messengers are to be FEARFUL [phobos] as we, under His direction and INFLUENCE, are "saving" these out of the "FIRE", and are doing this IN FEAR [phobos]...

Then I propose that LOVE which is GOD, ...is an INCOMPLETE or IMPERFECT element in that message, for the SCRIPTURE states that FEAR [phobos, noted 3, actually "4" times] is NOT a PART of LOVE...

If it is NOT a PART of LOVE, how can it be an ELEMENT of the MESSAGE of LOVE Zeek?

I believe that on the surface you see FEAR [phobos] as an element NECESSARY to the message, whereas... it is obvious to me that the MESSAGE which is proposed by the GREATEST part of Christianity, uses FEAR in that message as a prompting to others. ...to embrace the message!  [HELL & torment]

I further believe that this SURFACE understanding of FEAR as an integral PART, is that which CORRUPTS the message being delivered... because the Apostle John says THIS:


1 John 4:18  there is NO FEAR [phobos] ...IN... LOVE, but PERFECT [complete] LOVE, ...CASTETH OUT, ...FEAR [phobos] because ...FEAR [phobos]... hath TORMENT.  He that FEARETH [phobeo - from phobos], is NOT MADE PERFECT [complete], ...in LOVE --  [GOD is LOVE]...


So if FEAR is an element present in the messenger... then that messenger is NOT found complete in LOVE, which is GOD... (1 John 4:8)  :dontknow:

If one is delivering a message which CONTAINS FEAR... (which HELL & torment DEFINITELY DOES), then the message itself is NOT PERFECT, for LOVE casts OUT FEAR... and if FEAR is present in the message, then the message is corrupted BY IT, for it is not found CAST OUT.

If FEAR is casted OUT of the "messenger", then it is no longer a PART of the "messenger",  ...and if no longer a PART of the "messenger",  ...how can it be PART of His message?  :omg:

Quote from: Zeek on November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AMJud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



fear

G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Well... I believe I have made my point about the appearance and [IMO] misunderstanding of the this word [phobos] in Scripture... as it is applied to the message of the GOSPEL of LOVE [GOD] (1 Thes 2:9)  and PEACE (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15)

What "PEACE" is found in FEAR Zeek?

You are more than welcome to disagree with what I have said, brother Zeek...  :dontknow:

peacE...

willieH    :angel5:

Thanks Willie for your reply,

I tend to see scripture twofold; one as written to a specific group of peoples (Israel and grafted in gentiles) with regards to a specific literal judgment coming; that no one living at that time would want to go through; which as I've stated in other threads; happened in AD70 imo.  The scriptures are full of a "soon return" of Jesus in judgment upon apostate Israel.  At the time of the first century, the "Ishmaels were being cast out", and the "Isaacs" being saved from the soon coming judgment. To not warn, and to not instill fear to those who once had tasted the goodness of HIM via the Holy Spirit, but had fallen away; would be a lack of love.  Paul, James, Peter, and John were not fooling around.  Staying faithful to the end was of absolute importance, to not throw away their inheritance.  

I know u are well versed on scripture so won't list all of them re: coming judgment, and the intense desire of those given eyes to see to keep those from falling away and facing destruction:


Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

saved from what?  soon coming judgment.  This was a literal judgment coming.  Beware.  

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Php 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Rom 10:11  For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction  from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

sounds to me like something one should fear

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful   thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.



Now, I also see the scripture more "internally" or "spiritually" in the sense not a soon coming "literal" destruction, but an "internal" destruction of the carnal mind.  In this view; the "dying of the carnal mind" through destruction is a good thing; and is one way to look at scripture.  And I think more of the view you take, although; I think u mix "literal" with "spiritual" since you also take "physical death (a literal event) as part of the equation.  


So, my two cents.  I see both sides.  


one other thought:

So, for me; if one sees the judgment as described by the apostles, as coming to every generation rather than just "this generation", as I believe Craig does; then it makes sense to me; to adhere to the apostles warnings; and to be aware, be alert, stay faithful; etc etc. 

Thanks T, for the always applicable view to the NOW. 

Love in Him

Z

Quote from: Zeek on November 10, 2008, 01:59:12 AM
Thanks T, for the always applicable view to the NOW. 

Love in Him

Z

Zeek...

good to see ya still around some Budd and Posting :icon_flower:

QuoteSo, for me; if one sees the judgment as described by the apostles, as coming to every generation rather than just "this generation", as I believe Craig does; then it makes sense to me; to adhere to the apostles warnings; and to be aware, be alert, stay faithful; etc etc.

Every individual will go through the consequences of their actions, we all reap what we sow so becareful what you sow. This spiritual law is present always.

Galatians 6:6-8
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

It is not talking about 70AD, it is talking about every age, including Today. Every nation reaped what it sowed, Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, Israel, Rome, etc. The principle of sowing and reaping did not end in 70AD, 70AD occurred because of this spiritual principal.

Everyone is anyone, reaps what he sows. Some will not reap an aionios life because they lived by their sinful nature and were destroyed and are being destroyed. It matters not that destruction must come to cleanse them of their sinful nature,they did not need to live by their sinful nature be destroyed, they could have lived by the Spirit to reap eternal life.

That understanding is what Satan does not want us to know, he wants us all to be destroyed because it is to his satisfaction that none of us should live by the spirit and reap eternal life so made up a lie that destruction is good. Why are we warned and to be weary of the destruction that is coming by Jesus and his disciples, if that is what we are to embrace. Those who continue to teach this lie, like Jesus said, should tie a millstone to their necks and throw themselves into the sea because they are leading people astray.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 03:33:50 AM

QuoteSo, for me; if one sees the judgment as described by the apostles, as coming to every generation rather than just "this generation", as I believe Craig does; then it makes sense to me; to adhere to the apostles warnings; and to be aware, be alert, stay faithful; etc etc.

Every nation reaped what it sowed, Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, Israel, Rome, etc. The principle of sowing and reaping did not end in 70AD, 70AD occurred because of this spiritual principal.

IMO,

AD70 occurred because it was fulfillment in prophecy.  fulfillment in HIM.  The prior judgments were shadows of what was to come.  Judgments prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

but I do understand your point of view, and have contemplated it as well as many others point of views  often. 



 

Reaping and sowing in God's economy is not necessarily a direct cause and effect relationship, nor is it necessarily linear.  So we see the laws of Karma and Physics as they are known in other religions do not necessarily apply.



God's judgment on the wicked--they sow wheat but reap thorns--


12 Over all the barren heights in the desert
       destroyers will swarm,
       for the sword of the LORD will devour
       from one end of the land to the other;
       no one will be safe.
13 They will sow wheat but reap thorns;
       they will wear themselves out but gain nothing.
       So bear the shame of your harvest
       because of the LORD's fierce anger."

--Jer 12



The wicked reap far worse than the wicked thing they sowed--



5 Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria!
       My anger burns against them.
       How long will they be incapable of purity?

6 They are from Israel!
       This calf—a craftsman has made it;
       it is not God.
       It will be broken in pieces,
       that calf of Samaria.

7 "They sow the wind
       and reap the whirlwind.
       The stalk has no head;
       it will produce no flour.
       Were it to yield grain,
       foreigners would swallow it up.

8 Israel is swallowed up;
       now she is among the nations
       like a worthless thing.

--Hosea 8



The wicked will sow but not reap anything at all--leaving their house desolate--



15Thou shalt sow, but thou shalt not reap; thou shalt tread the olives, but thou shalt not anoint thee with oil; and sweet wine, but shalt not drink wine.

16For the statutes of Omri are kept, and all the works of the house of Ahab, and ye walk in their counsels; that I should make thee a desolation, and the inhabitants thereof an hissing: therefore ye shall bear the reproach of my people.

--Micah 6



The brokenhearted will reap joy by sowing tears--



4Turn again our captivity, O LORD, as the streams in the south.

5They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.

6He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

--Psa 126



We are to sow righteousness to reap mercy--



12Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

13Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity; ye have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men.

--Hosea 10



Through Christ we reap what another sowed--so that reaper and sower can rejoice together--



35Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

--John 4

I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 05:39:40 AM
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.

Quote from: Zeek on November 10, 2008, 03:58:05 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 03:33:50 AM

QuoteSo, for me; if one sees the judgment as described by the apostles, as coming to every generation rather than just "this generation", as I believe Craig does; then it makes sense to me; to adhere to the apostles warnings; and to be aware, be alert, stay faithful; etc etc.

Every nation reaped what it sowed, Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, Israel, Rome, etc. The principle of sowing and reaping did not end in 70AD, 70AD occurred because of this spiritual principal.

IMO,

AD70 occurred because it was fulfillment in prophecy.  fulfillment in HIM.  The prior judgments were shadows of what was to come.  Judgments prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

but I do understand your point of view, and have contemplated it as well as many others point of views  often. 

I agree, 70AD occurred because it was a fulfillment of prophesy, a prophesy that warned and obstinate nation would be made desolate because of their disobedience. I brought this example and addressed it because someone out there is using it as the reason Jesus was warning of destruction, thinking Jesus only came for that time and place and was speaking of the destruction of the Temple alone. Jesus is the CONSUMMATION OF THE AGES not just an age.

My point being, there is something so miserable that comes to someone who leads another astray, that Jesus told them it was better they commit suicide! This is a pretty strong warning and for anyone who says that this warning is from a fear based doctrine, they alienate their own Lord and make his words nothing. Jesus did not speak for nothing, and if these people think Scripture is made up and rewritten to fit a fear base doctrine and that Jesus never made such dire warnings, they are deceived, deluded and have nothing to do with the faith, their faith has no substance and any argument they make has no substance.

That just suffering a person receives could have been avoided had they turned and dug up that seed they planted. That the light would shine and they see the need for repentance to avoid reaping a harvest of thorns and thistles which is near cursed and set to be burned. The light would shine so they could plant a seed of blessing and partake in the blessings. That is now, not later but for those who do not do it now, they experience punishment/correction which though is painful at the time leads to a righteousness, in this life or the after.

QuoteMy point being, there is something so miserable that comes to someone who leads another astray, that Jesus told them it was better they commit suicide! This is a pretty strong warning and for anyone who says that this warning is from a fear based doctrine, they alienate their own Lord and make his words nothing. Jesus did not speak for nothing, and if these people think Scripture is made up and rewritten to fit a fear base doctrine and that Jesus never made such dire warnings, they are deceived, deluded and have nothing to do with the faith, their faith has no substance and any argument they make has no substance.

Although it is my opinion that Jesus used these strong words for people who were purposely leading his sheep astray.  The Pharisees were such people because it benefitted them to do so.  He calls them liars!  He calls them thieves!  They had an ulterior motive, as such people have to this very day.  Religion is a very useful tool in the hands of those who would use it for their own power and enrichment.  That is, people with evil motives.  That is, people working for satan.

But, of the ignorant he said, Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 05:39:40 AM
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.

God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:23:39 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 05:39:40 AM
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.

God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.

Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:29:00 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:23:39 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 05:39:40 AM
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.

God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.

Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).

Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:39:12 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:29:00 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:23:39 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 05:39:40 AM
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.

God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.

Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).

Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     

I know my Redeemer lives...


Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:20:13 AM

QuoteMy point being, there is something so miserable that comes to someone who leads another astray, that Jesus told them it was better they commit suicide! This is a pretty strong warning and for anyone who says that this warning is from a fear based doctrine, they alienate their own Lord and make his words nothing. Jesus did not speak for nothing, and if these people think Scripture is made up and rewritten to fit a fear base doctrine and that Jesus never made such dire warnings, they are deceived, deluded and have nothing to do with the faith, their faith has no substance and any argument they make has no substance.

Although it is my opinion that Jesus used these strong words for people who were purposely leading his sheep astray.  The Pharisees were such people because it benefitted them to do so.  He calls them liars!  He calls them thieves!  They had an ulterior motive, as such people have to this very day.  Religion is a very useful tool in the hands of those who would use it for their own power and enrichment.  That is, people with evil motives.  That is, people working for satan.

But, of the ignorant he said, Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.

I disagree, they did not PURPOSELY do it. They were decieved, I was going to address this in my statement above and then deleted it, but it seems I was following the Spirit.

Matthew 13:12-15
"Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see;  though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

They did not know, nor do they understand, they are blind leading the blind.

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:59:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:39:12 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:29:00 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:23:39 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 05:39:40 AM
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.

God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.

Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).

Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     

I know my Redeemer lives...


Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul wrote Galations while in the NEW order. Paul, the one who wrote Romans, told you that we are GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED, WE ALL REAP WHAT WE SOW. So get it out of your head that reaping and sowing is of the OLD order of things. You are not under the Law where justice is found in an eye for an eye you are under the New Law which says the one who takes an eye for an eye, is just as guilty as the one who took an eye. In Christ, it is God who judges, not man and it is His to avenge and repay.

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Hebrews 10:28-29
Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."

So NO WONDER we are cautioned and warned and told to beware of those who would have us return to a system of eye for an eye and take into our own hands what we believe is justice. It is not a pleasant thing to experience the consequence of such action, you are not opposing some man, but God Himself.

This doesn't mean you are doomed to a sentence of perpetual torment, but what it does mean is there is penalty, corrective punishment awaiting those who live after the sinful nature, a penalty which can be avoided had you lived a repentant life and forgive one another all the time. The grace of God is our strength in our time of need, when we do not think we can do good any longer, His strength is sufficient for us. God is just, but He is also faithful and merciful.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 08:29:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:20:13 AM

QuoteMy point being, there is something so miserable that comes to someone who leads another astray, that Jesus told them it was better they commit suicide! This is a pretty strong warning and for anyone who says that this warning is from a fear based doctrine, they alienate their own Lord and make his words nothing. Jesus did not speak for nothing, and if these people think Scripture is made up and rewritten to fit a fear base doctrine and that Jesus never made such dire warnings, they are deceived, deluded and have nothing to do with the faith, their faith has no substance and any argument they make has no substance.

Although it is my opinion that Jesus used these strong words for people who were purposely leading his sheep astray.  The Pharisees were such people because it benefitted them to do so.  He calls them liars!  He calls them thieves!  They had an ulterior motive, as such people have to this very day.  Religion is a very useful tool in the hands of those who would use it for their own power and enrichment.  That is, people with evil motives.  That is, people working for satan.

But, of the ignorant he said, Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.

I disagree, they did not PURPOSELY do it. They were decieved, I was going to address this in my statement above and then deleted it, but it seems I was following the Spirit.

Matthew 13:12-15
"Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see;  though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

They did not know, nor do they understand, they are blind leading the blind.

Ultimately deceived, yes.  However,  they knew they were enriching themselves at the expense of the people, stealing from widows and orphans, showing no mercy, lording themselves over everyone else.  Do you really think they thought they were doing God's will when they ran their mock trial against Jesus?  They broke their own laws to convict him in their phoney midnight trial. 

Bottom line--they were evil.  And, those that do similar things today are evil.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 08:31:55 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:59:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:39:12 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:29:00 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:23:39 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 05:39:40 AM
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.

God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.

Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).

Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     

I know my Redeemer lives...


Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul wrote Galations while in the NEW order. Paul, the one who wrote Romans, told you that we are GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED, WE ALL REAP WHAT WE SOW. So get it out of your head that reaping and sowing is of the OLD order of things. You are not under the Law where justice is found in an eye for an eye you are under the New Law which says the one who takes an eye for an eye, is just as guilty as the one who took an eye.

More to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

QuoteMore to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

Right. I added to what I said, you were too quick to quote me :)

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 08:42:53 AM

QuoteMore to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

Right. I added to what I said, you were too quick to quote me :)

well, that's what I mean.  We have been set free from an eye for an eye and an eye for and eye for an eye--which is all just so much death.

Now if someone would just tell the world to repent...

This is going to sting.... Jesus spoke so that they wouldn't repent... They had to make their own choice... He WANTED God to deal with them if they did not.

Matthew 13:13-15
This is why I speak to them in parables:"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Watch Jesus at work. Those who are decieved remain decieved and suffer because they have seen the Light and ran from it.

Revelation 22:11
Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 08:47:45 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 08:42:53 AM

QuoteMore to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

Right. I added to what I said, you were too quick to quote me :)

well, that's what I mean.  We have been set free from an eye for an eye and an eye for and eye for an eye--which is all just so much death.

Now if someone would just tell the world to repent...

You have not been set free from reaping and sowing, you been just taken captive from man and placed into the Hands of God. The New Law is one of accountability and responsibility. There is no hedge, tradition, or excuse that can decieved the ears of men when it is God who is your judge. It seems to me that the UR message by some has avoided this to the point of delusion and willful ignorance.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 08:52:41 AM
This is going to sting.... Jesus spoke so that they wouldn't repent... They had to make their own choice... He WANTED God to deal with them if they did not.

Matthew 13:13-15
This is why I speak to them in parables:"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Watch Jesus at work. Those who are decieved remain decieved and suffer because they have seen the Light and ran from it.

Revelation 22:11
Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

Yes, I know.  I don't quite understand that yet--why God is doing things this way, making it so hard for them to see the light, or so easy for them to run from it.

The irony of it all is that God told Abraham he would make him the father of many nations--where the word 'nations' means gentiles.  Abraham was the original gentile--Abram, the 'high father.'

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 08:57:23 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 08:47:45 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 08:42:53 AM

QuoteMore to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

Right. I added to what I said, you were too quick to quote me :)

well, that's what I mean.  We have been set free from an eye for an eye and an eye for and eye for an eye--which is all just so much death.

Now if someone would just tell the world to repent...

You have not been set free from reaping and sowing, you been just taken captive from man and placed into the Hands of God. The New Law is one of accountability and responsibility. There is no hedge, tradition, or excuse that can decieved the ears of men when it is God who is your judge. It seems to me that the UR message by some has avoided this to the point of delusion and willful ignorance.

That's one extreme.  The other is go ahead and sin your head off as long as you confess and repent of the same sin repeatedly...

It is not extreme at all, it is just not understood. The light is already in this world, they are without excuse.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Quote from: MollyThe other is go ahead and sin your head off as long as you confess and repent of the same sin repeatedly...

....THAT DOCTRINE CONDEMNED AND WARNED AGAINST!

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Jude 1:3-7
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Again, some in the message of UR don't realize the only lie was that this punishment was perpetual torment! The truth is there is punishment and it serves for a limited duration.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 09:14:53 AM

Quote from: MollyThe other is go ahead and sin your head off as long as you confess and repent of the same sin repeatedly...

....THAT DOCTRINE CONDEMNED AND WARNED AGAINST!

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Jude 1:3-7
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Jesus says to people he has healed, Go and sin no more.

That means it must be possible.  Isn't that a message we are also to take to heart?

Not that it's necessarily that easy to do.  The key is that God's grace is not a license for immorality.  And, yet, some organized religions seem to actually teach it that way, in practice if not in theory, a sort of buying your way out of a bad deed by giving this amount of money or saying this number of prayers of contrition.   This would be the equivalent of the first circumcision, I would think--those who never made it out of the wilderness because everything was imposed from the outside and their hearts had never changed.

This gives the leaders of those religions a tremendous amount of power over their congregation--because not only are they dictating the terms of God's forgiveness for a given transgression, not only are they acquiring what amounts to the most delicate secrets of their flock, but they almost seem to be standing in place of Christ to keep people away from an intimate relationship with him.

And, yet, the only way we will be truly healed is through direct relationship with Christ.

So, for me, this is the Pharisees--deja vu all over again.   The punishment goes on and on, and nothing ever changes.

When Marx said that religion was the opiate of the masses, he was chuckling up his sleeve because he knew it had been designed that way and served the same purposes as his godless religion of a proletariat that would never rise above the mud, --keeping people asleep, shackled, and oppressed.

Or as Jesus said, you search the whole world for one convert, and when you find him, you make him more the child of hell than you are yourselves.

This is where the misunderstanding occurs. It isn't about works, or deeds. If a person truly is following after Christ, their works and deeds will follow. It is the cart before the horse and it that is what has been so wrongly taught. If you mess up, repent and strive for what is good and run the race towards the prize. If you are weak, His grace is sufficient. This is not about punishment and correction, this is about living and pursuing what is good because that is why we are created. The motivation is to do good, not to run from punishment.

The pharisee says if we do enough good works we will be safe from any punishment. That doesn't work because the motivation is wrong! To do good for self-preservation is sin! Yes, you were not pursuing good, you were pursuing selfishness! Thus heaping upon yourself the punishment you so wanted to avoid. We aren't talking literal fire and torture pits, but the needless suffering a person goes through in life when they are motivated by guilt and fear and self-delusion.

Good works do not get you to heaven, the just shall live by faith. If by faith, then good works are present. If there are no good works present, then your faith is null and you deny Him who purchased you.

It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

QuoteIt is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

It can't be that simple.  Hardly anyone gets it.

QuoteThat doesn't work because the motivation is wrong!

The motivation is wrong because they don't know Jesus.  To know him is to love him and be extremely motivated out of love.

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 11:04:51 AM

QuoteIt is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

It can't be that simple.  Hardly anyone gets it.

Of course hardly anyone gets it, because they keep thinking, "What's in it for me?" They look for their own satisfaction, their own fluffy feelings, and therefore never see it. If anyone has a faith that says, "What's in it for me!" they are living by the flesh and what is in it most definitely is what they don't want.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 11:13:44 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 11:04:51 AM

QuoteIt is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

It can't be that simple.  Hardly anyone gets it.

Of course hardly anyone gets it, because they keep thinking, "What's in it for me?" They look for their own satisfaction, their own fluffy feelings, and therefore never see it. If anyone has a faith that says, "What's in it for me!" they are living by the flesh and what is in it most definitely is what they don't want.

I don't think that is a bad starting place, because it is where we are living when we start--first the natural--first the child.  If they keep pursuing God from this angle--they will find there is a lot in it for them, even as it changes shape and form until all they want is him.  The problem comes in when their knowledge of him continues to remain in the realm of the superficial satisfaction of the child--*which is right where religion wants to keep them*.

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 11:22:00 AM

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 11:13:44 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 11:04:51 AM

QuoteIt is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

It can't be that simple.  Hardly anyone gets it.

Of course hardly anyone gets it, because they keep thinking, "What's in it for me?" They look for their own satisfaction, their own fluffy feelings, and therefore never see it. If anyone has a faith that says, "What's in it for me!" they are living by the flesh and what is in it most definitely is what they don't want.

I don't think that is a bad starting place, because it is where we are living when we start--first the natural--first the child.  If they keep pursuing God from this angle--they will find there is a lot in it for them, even as it changes shape and form until all they want is him.  The problem comes in when their knowledge of him continues to remain in the realm of the superficial satisfaction of the child--*which is right where religion wants to keep them*.

Right, that is how it goes. We do grow up! We must mature! Jesus said the workman who looks back is not worthy of the Kingdom of God.

Luke 9:62
Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

etc etc.

It all comes down to the right mindset, and many even in UR have lost touch with what was important. I grow frustrated when I hear doctrines of 'no control' over our circumstance and that we are not accountable or responsible for our actions. Such doctrines are of the devil, lies that encourage no repentance, no obedience, no pursuant of good but of self-seeking, self-fulfilling, self-orientated non-sense that will lead them straight in to destruction.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 11:01:33 AM
Good works do not get you to heaven, the just shall live by faith. If by faith, then good works are present. If there are no good works present, then your faith is null and you deny Him who purchased you.

It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:59:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:39:12 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 07:29:00 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 07:23:39 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 05:42:03 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 10, 2008, 05:39:40 AM
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.

God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.

Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).

Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     

I know my Redeemer lives...


Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Never said He doesn't live,  if Romans 8:2 makes you free from the law of Sin as it may imply, then you would not die an earthly death.   "the wages of sin is death"  you are not free from reaping and sowing.

What God does is work within that law, works within the freedom he has given us so that we will reap immortality and learn righteousness and the knowledge of truth.

You are free because Sin and death cannot hold you prisoner forever.   But you still reap what you sow.   If now, you are sowing good seed, you will reap the consequences of that good seed.  If you are a deceiver now, whether you claim to know christ or not, you will still reap the concequences of what you sow.  No getting around it.

  God  is good  , and how I thank him for my brothers and sisters in the Lord 
  good words , I feel alot the  same about  the UR  circles  failing to 
express the warnings  of the Lord  the TRUTH , its not some fluffer nutter sandwich  with nuts and marshmallow cream ..all sweet and gooey  and a delight  to enjoy , 
the  man whom built the  barn parable comes to mind ,,, tearing down his barn and built up a new one so he could sit at ease  ,,  the  fools soul was required of him at that very time  !
too many warnings to ignore ...  or water down 
this parable makes me think as well ......... his goods all thats    acquired  in youth status etc..[wealth /gain can not and will not save him  :mblush:having obtained much IN LIFE  still had not obtained eternal life    :mshock: under the law it come by violence  much gain ,

Paul an example   of when he was a young Pharisee in violence , killing and using his voice against the innocent, Yet Jesus  keeps the Law in High standard ,but even more tight  to   hold /grasp but in an Order , Paul was made a prisoner/bondservant  of Jesus Christ  , no longer sin or the law of men , BUT GOD !

The Rich Young Ruler
17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

19"You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"

20And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up."

21Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

22But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

23And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

25"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"

27Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

28Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."

29Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,

30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

31"But many who are first will be last, and the last, first."
To me it is a different type of family and reward  spiritual in nature  and status , Only God can add cubits to stature ..

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2008, 09:00:18 PM

QuoteIsaiah 10:16-22 
Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Is the above signifying 'hell' ?
Is it a 'normal' 24-hour day or just a period of undefined length?

Getting back to WW's original post:
God our Father is a loving, merciful Father. When He would bring calamity upon Israel it was usually over very quickly rather than long, lingering suffering torment.
Remember when David numbered Israel? David told the prophet he was going to let God decide the punishment. It was over very quickly when 70,000 were killed.
Even the judging at the Great White Throne is very quick. And they are not tortured in the lake of fire. They are **cast** into that death. The word "cast" reveals a very quick action. When we cast a stone into a puddle it is very quickly done.

Satan and the beast and the other stooge in the LOF are tormented. I think torment has to do with the mind rather than if it was torture which has to do with the body. It is not a death for the three stooges. But it is not torture either.

So, to answer WW's original question, yes, I think it is a day and maybe not a full day at that. But I could be mistaken.

Quote from: Tony N on November 10, 2008, 05:28:06 PM
God our Father is a loving, merciful Father.

Seems we already agree on one point  :laughing7:

QuoteEven the judging at the Great White Throne is very quick. And they are not tortured in the lake of fire. They are **cast** into that death. The word "cast" reveals a very quick action. When we cast a stone into a puddle it is very quickly done.

But the stone stays in the water for a long time...
You know what my real problem is?
I think you can't deny there are some warnings in the Bible. I'm not speaking about torture of any kind. But still there warnings.
But if God is so extremely mild in His judgement. The punishment/correction doesn't hurt in anyway. And on top of that it's so short in duration that you hardly notice it.
Why did Jesus waste His breath on it?

QuoteSatan and the beast and the other stooge in the LOF are tormented. I think torment has to do with the mind rather than if it was torture which has to do with the body. It is not a death for the three stooges. But it is not torture either.

Depends on which of Strongs defenition you choose to use.
One of them is really torture. The other is "to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"
Personally I think it's the second defenition. I won't go into that otherwise the threda will sidetrack again :-)

QuoteSo, to answer WW's original question, yes, I think it is a day and maybe not a full day at that. But I could be mistaken.

In daily life I would have accepted that conclusion. But not so on TentMaker  :happygrin:
There are so many defenitions around for the word day.
Day is a literal 24-hour (12-hour) day as we see it on our own watch? No stuff like "for me is a 1000 years like  a day"

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 10, 2008, 05:47:19 PM

Quote from: Tony N on November 10, 2008, 05:28:06 PM
God our Father is a loving, merciful Father.

Seems we already agree on one point  :laughing7:

QuoteEven the judging at the Great White Throne is very quick. And they are not tortured in the lake of fire. They are **cast** into that death. The word "cast" reveals a very quick action. When we cast a stone into a puddle it is very quickly done.

But the stone stays in the water for a long time...
You know what my real problem is?
I think you can't deny there are some warnings in the Bible. I'm not speaking about torture of any kind. But still there warnings.
But if God is so extremely mild in His judgement. The punishment/correction doesn't hurt in anyway. And on top of that it's so short in duration that you hardly notice it.
Why did Jesus waste His breath on it?

Dear WW, Thanks for your reply. I was just trying to get this thread back on track.

By the way, concerning your statement: "But the stone stays in the water for a long time..." I would reply, Not always. Often the puddle dries up. And even should they be in the LOF for thousands of years, they are still not tortured by it due to being in unconscious death. I would say God's  indignation and fury, affliction and distress (Rom 2:9) is brief prior to the internment into death, the 2nd death.

Peace bro!
Tony

Jesus never spoke about the LOF but about Gehenna. And even then, no one suffers in the fires of Gehenna which is the trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem. Rather, they are executed first and then their body is dumped into the trash dump to be eaten with worms or to be burned up if the fire gets to the carcass.

Jesus warned his hearers about Gehenna because it is a great loss and very humiliating for one to miss out on the glorious 1000 year reign.

I don't know if I intimated that God is mild in his judgments. I guess one could come to that conclusion but I would still say that though death is the worst that God inflicts upon a person, it is still done speedily, at least in the Scriptures.

There are words in the Bible,  which refer to the future judgement in terms of degrees of judgement, e.g. more tolerable than Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgement, and more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon than for you.

Matthew 10:14-15
14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

Matthew 11:21-22
21 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.

Jesus Christ says that everyone will not face the same level of judgement in the Great White Throne Judgement Age. Here, we are talking about the judgement of unbelievers only, because believers will not face God's judgement in the Lake of Fire.

When Jesus walked on this earth, the Jews had His light available to them in person, but they were blind to it. Jesus says that the people of Tyre and Sidon, and even the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, will require less judgement than the unbelieving Jews who plotted to kill Him.

Luke 12:48
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Yes, the Bible says that there will be different levels and degrees of judgement, punishment and humbling experiences for unbelievers in the age to come judgement. However, ALL of God's judgements flow out of His love and are designed to lead people to their Saviour, and not to eternal torture in hell.

How long will the judgment of unbelievers last? As long as it takes for all unbelievers to come to repentance and accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ through God given faith to believe in Christ's death and resurrection. This is an age abiding future corrective judgement. Personally, I believe the Great White Throne Judgment Age will be of a very short duration of several years only.  Also, please note that all unbelievers will be resurrected in their immortal spiritual yet still unsaved bodies at the start of the Great White Throne Judgement Age.

Blessings

Quote from: davidsulem on November 10, 2008, 07:41:44 PM
Personally, I believe the Great White Throne Judgment Age will be of a very short duration of several years only.  Also, please note that all unbelievers will be resurrected in their immortal spiritual yet still unsaved bodies at the start of the Great White Throne Judgement Age.

Blessings

Hi David,
I am curious where the scripture verse is for that last sentence? How can "dead" be "immortal" when it states "I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne."

Well  
I dont explain myself very good ,
 I so wish that  were different
  the Great White Throne  judgment ,  TO me is the  ALL dressed IN WHITE  [meaning cleansed]
making up the throne , you shall judge angels etc .. seated with me as I overcame   and sit ......Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
  to me also it is a DAILY [DAY /CHRIST IS ]  event , it is future for some and some it is now and for some it is happened  already ..........

  to me only I only give a view  ,,  and considered it
  that the requirements to   be  employed by the Lord, has a job description  in the army of God a solder so to speak  , and Paul was filling that as ambassador [in place of  type, representing  his  BOSS Jesus Christ & /COUNTRY which is heaven and order of things  

  thats all  the point  me is struggling to spit out here ..Greek for G4243presbeuō ambassador
1) to be older, prior by birth or in age

2) to be an ambassador, act as an ambassadorEph 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. ambassador  

c.1374, from M.Fr. ambassadeur, from O.Fr. embassator, via Prov. or O.Sp. from L. ambactus "a servant, vassal," from Celt. amb(i)actos "a messenger, servant," from PIE *ambhi- "about" *ag- "drive, lead." Cf. embassy. Forms in am- and em- were used indiscriminately 17c.-18c.

Quote from: davidsalemYes, the Bible says that there will be different levels and degrees of judgement, punishment and humbling experiences for unbelievers in the age to come judgement. However, ALL of God's judgements flow out of His love and are designed to lead people to their Saviour, and not to eternal torture in hell.

That is what people need to understand even in the UR Message; because unsoundly, there are people who continue to believe that any judgment, or punishment is a contradiction to the character of God, believe God to spoil His Children by sparing the rod.

Quote from: Paul HazelwoodYou are free because Sin and death cannot hold you prisoner forever.   But you still reap what you sow.   If now, you are sowing good seed, you will reap the consequences of that good seed.  If you are a deceiver now, whether you claim to know christ or not, you will still reap the concequences of what you sow.  No getting around it.

This is what people need to understand even in the UR Message, we are free because sin and death cannot hold us forever! Not that we are free from reaping and sowing.

Hebrews 6:7-9
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

Quote from: davidsalemHow long will the judgment of unbelievers last? As long as it takes for all unbelievers to come to repentance and accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ through God given faith to believe in Christ's death and resurrection. This is an age abiding future corrective judgement.

Right!

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to aionios kolasis, but the righteous to aionios zoe."

If people used the correct definition of aionios, this would be very obvious. There is no word like it in English or Latin so it is difficult to understand. Aionios is an adjective which applies the meaning that the noun it is describing has an indeterminate duration which is based on the intrinsic nature of the noun it describes.

AIONIOS is "An indeterminate duration of which the maximum is fixed by the intrinsic nature of the persons or things. Or they last ever so long - so long as they last!"  -Pétavel-Olliff, Emmanuel, (1836-1910), The Problem of Immortality.

Kolasis means corrective punishment, therefore aionios kolasis ends when correction is complete. How long that takes, depends on the individual receiving the correction and the one administering the correction. That is what aionios kolasis means.


To answer WhiteWings.

According to Scripture, that correction lasts metaphorically one 24 hour day or two ages, a day and a night.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment rises for an age and an age. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:10
They will be basanizō [tested under pressure] [a] day and [a] night, for an age and an age.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 08:57:23 AM
You have not been set free from reaping and sowing, you been just taken captive from man and placed into the Hands of God. The New Law is one of accountability and responsibility.

Oh really?  Where is this "NEW LAW" mentioned? And is stated to be ACCOUNTABILITY and RESPONSIBILITY?  :dontknow:

No Scriptural support noted here, upon which to found this statement...  :thumbdown:  So it is thereby relegated to being:

Nothing but an OPINION... there is no Scripture which notes MAN is RESPONSIBLE for SIN... (book, chapter, verse - please)

Also... ALL MEN are in the HANDS of GOD... please!  JUDGMENT is for ALL... just because SOME have been given ears to hear of GRACE, does not remove the deeds of their lives from being what they ARE, WERE, or WILL BE...

Interpretation, brings about observation and conclusion... and there is no NEW LAW (book, chapter, verse - please!)... God's LAW was NOT removed... (Matt 5:17) it was FULFILLED... and IN CHRIST... that LAW does not present NEGATIVITY...

Scripture states that ALL JUDGMENT is committed to the Son (John 5:22)...

and the Son PLAINLY STATED, that He JUDGETH NO MAN (John 12:47)...

It is the DEEDS of our lives which come into JUDGMENT... (1 Cor 3:11-15)

Those deeds are done NOW... as IS the JUDGMENT of them (John 12:31)...

in THIS FIRE we NOW live in... (Rev 3:18)

John 8:15  YE JUDGE... after the FLESH... I, JUDGE NO MAN... (Scripture notes that JESUS is the SAME yesterday, today and forever... Heb 13:8 -- if He makes a statement, then it STANDS FOREVER and He clearly stated that He JUDGES -- NO MAN!)

CHRIST notes here that MEN "judge" after the FLESH... which is the common observation of JUDGMENT ...BY MEN... but CHRIST noted that

1. HE came NOT to JUDGE... (John 12:47) and
2. that He JUDGES NO MAN... (John 8:15)


WHY?  Because GRACE is the JUSTICE of the DIVINE (Rom 5:14-21)...

WHY?  Because the DIVINE is working ALL THINGS, according to ITS PURPOSE? (Eph 1:11)...
 
WHY?  To instill the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... (Gen 3:22)

His IMPARTIAL PURPOSE, ...is NOT to reward one for deeds HE DID NOT DO for CHRIST is working in those who SIN NOT... or to CURSE another for deeds HE DID DO... when CHRIST is NOT working in those who SIN...

It is GOD who DRAWS helpless men unto Himself, ....GIVES EARS to HEAR, then speaks to those whom HE has chosen to, ...JUSTIFIES according to HIS purpose, not the according to the limited and finite observations of MEN, which think to propose JUDGMENT of others, which they are TOLD NOT to do! (Matt 7:1)

3. That we are to JUDGE NOT... (why? - because we "judge" after the flesh as CHRIST stated that men DO!)

This is TOO SIMPLE for LAWYER-TYPES to understand... for they are caught up in their ego's, ...puffed up because of their "knowledge"... instead of letting the entirety of themselves fall to HUMILITY before GOD... and KNOW that GOD is IN CONTROL... and that HE is ORCHESTRATING this whole "kit & kaboodle"!   :laughing7:

This isn't a competition!  And GOD is no respecter of persons (PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL)...

So wherein is this EQUALITY found, when one guy is born in poverty and amongst criminals and is subsequently INFLUENCED by that environment... and the other guy is born the son of Billy Graham, and thereby wallows in plenty, and good INFLUENCES?

The EQUALITY is found in GOD... He HARDENS, He softens, He justifies, because HE is WORKING His PURPOSE in ALL...

ALL SIN ...IS... taken away... if TAKEN AWAY, then it is REMOVED... if REMOVED wherein is RESPONSIBILITY... and there is NO NEW LAW... there is GRACE which is LOVE which SAVES ALL...

Reap and Sow are principles which ACTIVELY govern the deeds of THIS LIFE - (which is DEATH) within TIME... The observer here takes behavior done HERE in FLESH and transposes punishments for said deeds, to the realm of SPIRIT LIFE in the ETERNAL...

The understanding of GRACE, is NOT a license which frees man to misbehave and thereby SIN...  :mshock:

GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS... which is too simple for the complex to understand... and too complex for ANY MAN to totally observe!  :dontknow:

So we are left with two most definite options which are ORDAINED of GOD:

1.  Promote LOVE, which teaches that GOD so LOVED the WORLD that He sent His only SON to SAVE it... that GOD was IN CHRIST reconciling the WORLD... that JUSTICE belongs to GOD alone... that SIN was TAKEN AWAY... that FORGIVENESS is DIVINE JUSTICE,  or:

2.  Promote that which is NOT of LOVE... and is TWO FACED... In ONE FACE -- telling the WORLD that GOD "LOVES them", but then TURN FACE -- telling them that He's GONNA GETCHA, if you don't listen to ME...

AND that VENGENCE is His PURPOSE and method of RECONCILIATION... (conveniently noting themselves as not due to receive any of this HORROR)

AND that YOU pay for your SIN if you don't HEAR those CLAIMING they are  preach this in the name of "LOVE"...  :Yeahright:

CHRIST gave no such example in His life, nor in His treatment of MEN...  He was NOT vengent...  He did NOT do anything which remotely displayed such a trait...  He taught to FORGIVE, for men KNOW NOT what they DO...  And in His ministry, He FORGAVE, over & over & over again... NOT ONCE exacting VENGENCE on ANYONE... (please don't cite the Moneychangers in the temple... NO MAN suffered, the principles they purposed suffered - the TABLES were thrown down... CHRIST did not physically "assault" the moneychangers -- He "assaulted" their merchandise and means)

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 08:57:23 AMThere is no hedge, tradition, or excuse that can decieved the ears of men when it is God who is your judge. It seems to me that the UR message by some has avoided this to the point of delusion and willful ignorance

I agree... LOVE and GRACE and FORGIVENESS are NOT the message of many which have come to "know" UR... rather... just a different VERSION of HELL is preached, and an undisclosed but FINITE duration imposed upon it...

JESUS gave no such instruction to teach this... He said: 

Matt 28:19-20 ...Go ye therefore and teach ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, ...teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you...

Where did He COMMAND them to teach of HELL or some "UR alternative"? 

What commands did He give?  FORGIVE your enemies -- JUDGE NOT -- Bring the GOSPEL of SALVATION to them... YES!!!   

Tell them about HELL? -- Tell them they are going to be DAMNED if they don't listen to you?  NO!!!

Believe what you will...  :dontknow:

Again another baseless rebuttal that has no substance on anything and doesn't even address anything that I wrote. Just more of your vain imaginations and stupid arguments coming from your own insecurity. When you actually take time to listen, then post; otherwise you are just meaningless noise.

Quote from: davidsulem on November 10, 2008, 02:49:59 PM

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 11:01:33 AM
Good works do not get you to heaven, the just shall live by faith. If by faith, then good works are present. If there are no good works present, then your faith is null and you deny Him who purchased you.

On the surface this sounds nice, but... Only GOD draws men to good works... and
ONLY GOD performs good works, within them...

There are MANY which do "good works" in their lives... which do not know CHRIST...

There are many OUTSIDE of CHRISTIANITY, which by nature are doing GOOD WORKS... there are many humans which do things that can be observed as "GOOD WORKS", yet they might not even follow any given "faith"...

So it is a bit off-base to deduce GOOD WORKS as the sole evidence of FAITH of CHRIST, present or NOT present in the one observed...  There are also many which claim CHRIST present in themselves (professing to have faith), which are not about GOOD WORKS...

It is LOVE which reveals that CHRIST is working in one... for CHRIST is LOVE... and Scripture notes:

John 13:35  by THIS shall all men KNOW that ye are my disciples: if ye have LOVE, one to another

The above noted observance [in blue above] is the JUDGMENT deduction of another according to FLESHLY observance, which CHRIST noted men to be actively DOING... "Ye JUDGE after the FLESH... I judge NO MAN"...

Men who are NOT DRAWN, shall not exhibit the AUTHOR and FINISHER of FAITH within them... which is NOT their "call"... it is according to DIVINE order...

You do not DO the good works... CHRIST does them IN YOU...  If it is YOU which claim to author your "good works"... then YOU thereby claim the glory for them... which in fact, usurps GLORY due to CHRIST...

All you "DO" is yield to Him, and He thereby works IN YOU... i.e. Authoring the FAITH you claim as YOURS... which is ACTUALLY HIS:

PAUL noted this teaching... (Gal 2:20)

20  ...I am crucified with CHRIST, nevertheless I live, yet NOT I... but CHRIST LIVETH ...IN ME... and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the FAITH OF the SON OF GOD... (not MY FAITH, ...HIS)

Quote from: davidsulem on November 10, 2008, 02:49:59 PM
It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

I agree with this... the GOSPEL is not complicated... but it certainly is NOT observed in truth by many which suppose to proclaim it...

We'll all face ourselves AND the TRUTH in resurrection, as to whether we promoted and taught the GOSPEL in TRUTH or not...   :dontknow:

WillieH,

Easy on the pouncing on something like that:

The commandments, deeds, and redemption by Christ are called "Law" in Romans 8:2: The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

1Corinthians 9:21: to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Romans 3:27 calls New Covenant faith a law:  Where then is boasting?  It is excluded.  By what kind of law?  Of works?  No, but by the law of faith.

Love is called a commandment in the New Covenant.  Love does entail accountability and responsibility.  Galatians 6 talks about restoring someone overtaken in a trespass.  James 5 says how with the confession of faults to one another that would be highlighted by the Holy Spirit to relate to our healing so that we'll find healing with the anointing of oil and forgiveness of sin, because we're walking in the light as He's in the light in our fellowship with one another, per 1John 1:7.  The anointing with oil in James 5 would very likely allude back to the anointing with oil in Leviticus 14, but I'm not a very good expounder on Scriptural allegories so I'll leave that to someone else to comment on if they're so inclined.

I've got too much to do today, otherwise I'd continue with this post, but I just "had a feeling" that I should "check in" on what's been going on.  I'll ask Craig at this point to go ahead and give the Scriptures denoting personal responsibility even related to sin.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 10:47:18 PM
Again another baseless rebuttal that has no substance on anything and doesn't even address anything that I wrote. Just more of your vain imaginations and stupid arguments coming from your own insecurity. When you actually take time to listen, then post; otherwise you are just meaningless noise.

The BLIND will NOT SEE... as you amply display...  :sigh:

:Yeahright:  Just more of your OPINION which is without Scriptural foundation... no NEW LAW... no notation to support your words except YOUR WORDS...  :laughing7:

I am hardly insecure... more wreckless, baseless and USELESS words from you which you shall face one day... to your regret.  :pitiful:

I forgive you for them...  :cloud9:   ...as my Master instructed me to...  :HeartThrob:

willieH: Hi Martin! :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on November 10, 2008, 10:55:56 PM
WillieH,

Easy on the pouncing on something like that:

The commandments, deeds, and redemption by Christ are called "Law" in Romans 8:2: The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

1Corinthians 9:21: to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Romans 3:27 calls New Covenant faith a law:  Where then is boasting?  It is excluded.  By what kind of law?  Of works?  No, but by the law of faith.

The "LAW of LOVE" and the "NEW COVENANT" are not "NEW" rather are REVELATION...  that which was NOT (SPIRITUALLY) KNOWN prior... it appears as "NEW" for it was veiled... but THAT which is ETERNAL, never changes... The application of "NEW"... is to state CHANGE...

The "LAW of LOVE" ...ALWAY IS bro... the NEW COVENANT is REVELATION of the ETERNAL and SPIRITUAL reality... which also ALWAYS IS...

When you have a veil on a "new" piece of art... it is not MANIFEST into EXISTENCE, as the veil is removed, ...it is "REVEALED"... it was there all the time... just OBSCURED from your vision... So the painting was not NEW... it was just unseen or unpercieved.  Goodness sakes!  the painting might have been completed 10 years ago!   :laughing7:

Quote from: martincisneros on November 10, 2008, 10:55:56 PMLove is called a commandment in the New Covenant.

Its all in how you look at it Martin... 

It is a BASIS and foundation... the "commandment" aspect is to display it, not be LIMITED or FORCED by IT...

LOVE ...ALWAYS IS... for LOVE is GOD... and GOD is LOVE... God never changes... but it's REVELATION to FINITES brings change to THEM...

The "LAW of LOVE" never has been, never will be "NEW"... it is ETERNAL... and UNCHANGING... but to FINITES... which DO CHANGE... it's (LOVE'S) REVELATION appears as "NEW" to those who CHANGE...

Quote from: martincisneros on November 10, 2008, 10:55:56 PMLove does entail accountability and responsibility.

I have never said we were not accountable for ourselves and our lives... however, ...RESPONSIBILITY is where the BUCK STOPS, bro...  accountability is FACING that which is TRUE... RESPONSIBILITY is found at the ROOT or essence of something...

CHRIST took RESPONSIBILITY for SIN to the cross...

GOD created us, knowing beforehand, that we would ALL fail, and ORDAINING it to be so (concluding us ALL in UNBELIEF)...

The RESPONSIBILITY of SALVATION from that UNBELIEF/SIN is HIS...  for HE brought us forth,  ...HE created EVIL, ...and HE created the parameters of SIN, ...and HE created the result of them which is DEATH... so HE is found RESPONSIBLE for them, and to WHOM they occured.  :dontknow:

Quote from: martincisneros on November 10, 2008, 10:55:56 PMGalatians 6 talks about restoring someone overtaken in a trespass.

WORK of CHRIST in us...

Quote from: martincisneros on November 10, 2008, 10:55:56 PMJames 5 says how with the confession of faults to one another that would be highlighted by the Holy Spirit to relate to our healing so that we'll find healing with the anointing of oil and forgiveness of sin, because we're walking in the light as He's in the light in our fellowship with one another, per 1John 1:7.

Again, the WORK of CHRIST in us...

Quote from: martincisneros on November 10, 2008, 10:55:56 PMThe anointing with oil in James 5 would very likely allude back to the anointing with oil in Leviticus 14, but I'm not a very good expounder on Scriptural allegories so I'll leave that to someone else to comment on if they're so inclined.

Likely... but still the WORK of GOD in us bro... (as HE works ALL THINGS, after the counsel of HIS own WILL - Eph 1:11)

Quote from: martincisneros on November 10, 2008, 10:55:56 PMI've got too much to do today, otherwise I'd continue with this post, but I just "had a feeling" that I should "check in" on what's been going on.  I'll ask Craig at this point to go ahead and give the Scriptures denoting personal responsibility even related to sin.

If we had PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, it would be so named in the WORD... We shall give ACCOUNT, ...which means we must "FACE the music"...

But CHRIST took AWAY the Sin of the WORLD (John 1:29)... If the SIN is "taken away" how is it STILL THERE to be PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for?

The wrath of GOD is NOW bro...

(Rom 1:18)  for the WRATH of GOD ...IS... [not will be] revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...

The JUDGMENT of this world is NOW:

(John 12:31)  NOW ...IS... the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD [not later];  NOW is the prince of THIS WORLD cast out... [not later]

Craig is welcome to (try to) substanciate his "claims"... no problemo!  :drama:

Quote from: willieH on November 10, 2008, 11:01:16 PM

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 10:47:18 PM
Again another baseless rebuttal that has no substance on anything and doesn't even address anything that I wrote. Just more of your vain imaginations and stupid arguments coming from your own insecurity. When you actually take time to listen, then post; otherwise you are just meaningless noise.

The BLIND will NOT SEE... as you amply display...  :sigh:

:Yeahright:  Just more of your OPINION which is without Scriptural foundation... no NEW LAW... no notation to support your words except YOUR WORDS...  :laughing7:

I am hardly insecure... more wreckless, baseless and USELESS words from you which you shall face one day... to your regret.  :pitiful:

I forgive you for them...  :cloud9:   ...as my Master instructed me to...  :HeartThrob:

peacE...

willieH  :violin:

You should do less writing and more listening, nothing you wrote is relevant to what I presented, you just let your imagination get carried away and invent problems and issues that don't exist. As I said, your posts are irrelevant and demonstrates your inability to listen before you speak. Every administrator in this forum has pointed this out, even in this thread.

You have a fear and sin consciousness and it is obvious, it is YOUR problem Willie, and you don't have long to sort it out in your present life.

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 11:57:17 PM
You should do less writing and more listening, nothing you wrote is relevant to what I presented, you just let your imagination get carried away and invent problems and issues that don't exist.

I addressed you, and your UNBIBLICAL statements without foundation...  :dontknow: 

I call you on it... you then avoid answering me, as you are without substanciation for your OPINIONATED words...

Instead, DEVOID of LOVE, you make things personal... further displaying SPIRITUAL inadaquacy...

Quote from: SOtW on November 10, 2008, 11:57:17 PMAs I said, your posts are irrelevant and demonstrates your inability to listen before you speak. Every administrator in this forum has pointed this out, even in this thread.

As is your habit, you hereby attempt to corral others to side with you, in your effort to deal with me... Trying to gain support for your inherent insecurity... Please!

You should know by now that it does not matter to me whether or not anyone here agrees with the views I have...  :Sparkletooth:

I see no point in further indulging you,  as you have nothing of value to say, which is made obvious in your reply...

 
Pro 27:19 As in water face [answereth] to face, so the heart of man to man. 

Reading these conversations is like eating a porcupine.

I didn't understand the proverbs verse until I looked it up in this other translation.  It helps me a lot.

19 Just as water mirrors your face,
   so your face mirrors your heart
(Message Translation)

Willie, how many times does this have to be said, What you say has no relevance to what I wrote. It is all in your head, your arguments are made up from your own imagination. Nothing you wrote addresses anything I believe to refute it, so why would I reply to it? You are off your handle man, you have no idea what you are talking about. That is why I have nothing to do with what you write. Either listen to the conversation and reply appropriately or continue doing what you are doing. It doesn't bother me any more, all it does is cause strife.

Quote from: Nathan on November 11, 2008, 01:54:20 AM
Reading these conversations is like eating a porcupine.

Sorry about that...that is because the rules of the forum change, there was less tolerance for this in the beginning but people complained that they were being censored and so now you get to see non-sense conversations that really don't address anything and somehow it was thought that this actually helps the forum. I don't know any more, all I know is that WillieH's reply is so full of fallacy, putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and using slippery slopes that I never entered to make a case that has no point. Hence, why his replies have no substance so why would I even address them.

As for the proverb, I am sure we can go into passed discussions on this forum and find a place where you are taken out of context and then apply it to impose some superficial perception where you look ugly but you really weren't it was just manipulation or misinterpretation of the events. So it too is just non-sense to try to find a 'bad guy' where there isn't any.

If WillieH kept to the discussion and actually listened rather than go off on a tangent, this discussion would be far less porcupine.

Quote from: SOtW on November 11, 2008, 02:23:03 AM

Quote from: Nathan on November 11, 2008, 01:54:20 AM
Reading these conversations is like eating a porcupine.

Sorry about that...that is because the rules of the forum change, there was less tolerance for this in the beginning but people complained that they were being censored and so now you get to see non-sense conversations that really don't address anything and somehow it was thought that this actually helps the forum.

I'm not the one that locked the thread.  I was busy with a job application for a local Kroger grocery store.  Uh...yeah....this is a good place to call it quits with this thread.  What was about one day photo delivery correction has turned into why are we all so different at these boards with the accusations of who's going to spend the most time burning in Hell over it. :thumbdown: I'm going to be pulling needles out of my mouth for the rest of the evening! :eeew: