Psalm 105:8-9
(KJV) He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
(BBE) He has kept his agreement in mind for ever, the word which he gave for a thousand generations;
Maimonides seems to claim that the convenant/Torah was given to Moses after a 1000 generations have past.
But he also notes only 26 (recorded) generations have past. That would mean 974 'missing' generations.
With an average lifespan of 130 years that makes 127.000 years.
He further notes that creation of Adam isn't really about creation of the body but giving a "soul of humanity"
But that would mean God prommised the convenant to Cromags or Neaderthals men.
If it is looking 1000 generations forward from Moses then 'the end' can be calculated and AFAIK the Bible states noone know that besides Father.
(other data shows humankind does not have Neanderthal and CroMags as ancerstors)
How should I read that verse?
The first thing to note is that while science depicts cromags and neandertals our anscestors, there is really no evidence that they could not be mankind as well.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 11, 2008, 12:21:10 AM
The first thing to note is that while science depicts cromags and neandertals our anscestors, there is really no evidence that they could not be mankind as well.
I'm no scientist. I just read articles. No need to tell about missing links and many other evidence the whole Darwin theory is a hoax. But take a look at mtDNA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA
A tiny part of that is only passed on by the woman. It doesn't mix with the male DNA. That is (supposed to mean) that single part of DNA for all people on earth is the same. Back to the first common ancestor. Tests on CroMag and Neaderthal bones seem to rule out they are the ancestors. Surely I can't prove it on myself.
But that was just a side note.
For now I'm just looking what the verse means.
AFAIK Maimonides was/is a very repected scholar. At his time there wasn't much science. So he can't have been infleunced my for example archeology.
When I look with a very open mind to that verse I simply can't determine if it looks forward or backward in time.
It seems to look back in time. But my English is to weak to pick up the tiny language details....
I'm not trying to say anything is a hoax and a person does not need to be a scientist to see some factors involved.
To be more clear, biblically, the evidence saying the perspective must remain within the 6000 year bias is from those biased to it.
Ancient DNA of any sort is not complete enough and doubtfully ever will be to say conclusively much of anything other that it is different, but that does prove incompatibility.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 11, 2008, 12:50:00 AM
be more clear, biblically, the evidence saying the perspective must remain within the 6000 year bias is from those biased to it.
Not sure I understand that but I take a guess.
You say if we look purely Biblical at verses then we must stay within a 6000 year range?
It's already proven by Biblical scholars that the genealogy presented in the Bible isn't complete.
If you compare the timelines from various books you see names missing and added.
It's not that God forgot a few/many names. There where other reasons for not making a complet list.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 12:58:58 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 11, 2008, 12:50:00 AM
be more clear, biblically, the evidence saying the perspective must remain within the 6000 year bias is from those biased to it.
Not sure I understand that but I take a guess.
You say if we look purely Biblical at verses then we must stay within a 6000 year range?
It's already proven by Biblical scholars that the genealogy presented in the Bible isn't complete.
If you compare the timelines from various books you see names missing and added.
It's not that God forgot a few/many names. There where other reasons for not making a complet list.
No, quite the opposite, there is nothing scriptural that anyone can point directly at in the bible to maintain that range of time.
What I am saying is that there is absolutly nothing in scripture literally or figuratively that conclusively says what the age of the earth is.
While some provide their own view to say that science is all conjecture on the matter scripturally there is nothing to suggest a 4.5 billion year old earth and a couple 100 thousand years of man could not be.
What I am saying is the only evidence is from those biased to the young creationism model, not scripture.
Completely misunderstood you Paul. I'm no YEC either I think that's clear.
Surely I can't speak for all YECs but some seem to fear that science proofs the Bible to be false.
Or that science makes the creation works of God less special.
I can only speak for myself but science proves the Bible and makes God even bigger for me!
IMO YECs are allowed to have their view; but in my view they blocking/slowing down the word of God.
I wouldn't be suprised that some still claim a flat earth and the sun rotating around earth.
I see that around myself. People don't even bother to pick up a Bible because almost everyone seems to know "God created is 6 days..."
Rejecting the Bible? Fine. But rejecting it because of interpretations of man? Not fine...
Quotescience is all conjecture
I also have about 10 YEC books. Guess what they also use science to prove their point. (wrong interpretations I might add) All IMHO! And we all know how much value you can put in that! :LH:
Back to the verse. Just taking things literally.
Generations between Adam and Noah/Moses where about 130 years on average.
That would mean Adam was created 130.000 years before Moses. That clearly doesn't fit in the 6000 years.
Then the other possibility is that it is looking 1000 generations forward. That surely can fit as time going.
Imagine the 1000 year convenant would end then. So mankind can calculate when generation 1000 is there.
The problem is that a verse (revelation?) states that not even the Son knows when the end of times is.
So 1000 year forward is unbiblical.
Or am I mixing up things and seeing them out of context?
Even staying in the Word, there's a whole bunch we still don't know yet, isn't there? Interesting stuff guys.
QuotePsalm 105:8-9
(KJV) He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
(BBE) He has kept his agreement in mind for ever, the word which he gave for a thousand generations;
Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest [is]
mine, [and] the cattle upon a
thousand hills.Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is
past, and [as] a watch in the night.
Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he
live a thousand years twice [told], yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
Theres something about a IOOO which may mean "Completeness" :HeartThrob:
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that
one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as
one day. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall
reign with him a thousand years.
:icon_flower:
Either from Genesis 1:1 to 1Corinthians 15:28 or from Genesis 1:26 to 1Corinthians 15:28 is the thousand generations. A generation in the Bible related to the Covenants can be 100 years. God told Abraham that his descendants would go into Egypt for 400 years and in the 4th generation He'd bring them out with signs and wonders. I know that Galatians says that they were there for 430 years, but the two explanations on that are that either Israel wasn't in bondage the first few years as honoured guests as Joseph's family in Genesis, or Moses acted 10 years early outside of the plan of God by killing the Egyptian and then when Moses ran to the wilderness God gave him 40 years to deal with his own issues. I don't believe that "no man knows the day and the hour" would refer to this issue of the thousandth generation. Even if it did, that doesn't mean that even the first Adam would be paying the least bit of attention to what's going on or that he'd be keeping count.
Also, just because the thousandth generation had come, there's the questions of when in that thousandth generation that 1Corinthians 15:28 happens, whether at the start of it, towards the end of it, or at what point within that generation. Additionally, if the human family went beyond a thousand generations before 1Corinthians 15:28 in it's duration when counting from the beginning, there's more than one covenant in Scripture and determining which one it speaks of can be tedious 'cause there are covenants of health and wealth, protection and deliverance, sanctification and baptism with power, the covenant of righteousness that we all have by faith, His sworn oath that every man, woman, child, animal, angel, and anything or anyone else is His, and additional covenants beyond that. I've seen so much in the Bible's usage of numbers and how precise they tend to be that I'm very deeply hesitant to fall back on the metaphor claims of others or that in some way it's just speaking generally that He'll always keep these particular promises in their present form on their present terms and conditions and with the current kinds of provision without a clearer revelation from Him on that that these present provisions would always provide exactly what mankind would ever conceivably need beyond the thousandth generation.
From approximately when Jesus said, "Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these should be occurring" (Matthew 24:34) we can count about 38 years to the destruction of Jerusalem. This is just short of the 40 years which is the predominant reckoning for a "generation." (This does not mean it is the only "right" way to calculate, just as there are several cubits. For instance, the Royal Cubit is elbow to the tip of the fingers plus another hand signifying Yahweh our King works a hand beyond the measure of a man. The Proverbs has, "All the weights of the bag are His." There is special spiritual significance in all the calendars of Israel, etc.) 1,000 generations may be 40,000 years. According to the one thing Peter would not have us ignorant concerning, "One day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8,) if we calculate from the promise to Abraham, the entrance into the 1,000 year Milennial rule is the also the beginning of another 36,000 years, about one revolution of our galaxy, the Milky Way. If the 40 years is based on a 120 lifespan, about the middle third, then when the 1,000 year lifespans are re-instated (probably at the beginning of the Milennium) a generation may become 333 years. 10% done in the past, with 900 generations left x 333 We could calculate 997,000 years remaining for what seems to me to be the duration of the fleshy sons of Adam to continue biological reproduction. The total years then could be 4,000 + 997,000 = 1,001,000. While there are a minimum of 5 eons indicated in Scripture, there may be 8. Then there is after the eons.
Psa 105:8 He always remembers his covenantal decree, he promise he made9 to a thousand generations — 9 the promise10 he made to Abraham, the promise he made by oath to Isaac!
Net Commentary:
Psa 105:8-9
9 tn Heb "[the] word he commanded." The text refers here to God's unconditional covenantal promise to Abraham and the patriarchs, as Psa_105:10-12 make clear.
10 tn Heb "which."
Barnes Commentary:
To a thousand generations - Very many generations; or, any number of generations: that is, always. Compare Exo 20:6. The experience of the people through all the generations of their history has shown that in what he has promised and directed he is unchanging.
Exo 20:6 and showing covenant faithfulness to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Interesting
Paul
Quote from: Taffy on December 11, 2008, 02:01:53 AM
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.
Taffy,
I picked out that one verse because it is the most relevant one.
Do you mean a generation maybe just means a year?
Maybe it's some sort of translation error?
Some for example claim that what we read as years in the English translations stricktly means 'repeating' in old Hebrew.
For example he was 20 repeatings in prison. Could mean years, seasons, moon cycles.
Quote from: Pierac on December 11, 2008, 09:14:48 AM
Psa 105:8 He always remembers his covenantal decree, he promise he made9 to a thousand generations — 9 the promise10 he made to Abraham, the promise he made by oath to Isaac!
Still isn't clear to me it speaks about a convenant before or after Abraham.
(BBE) He has kept his agreement in mind for ever, the word which he gave for a thousand generations;
If we place that verse in the time God spoke to Abraham then He 'remembered the 1000 generation convenant'
But what did He remember:
a] He remembered it was time to give the convenant.
b] He remembered the convenant He has give 1000 generations earlier.
c] He remembered that He gave a 1000 generation convenant that, say, started with Adam and wasn't finished at that time.
QuoteNet Commentary:
Psa 105:8-9
9 tn Heb "[the] word he commanded." The text refers here to God's unconditional covenantal promise to Abraham and the patriarchs, as Psa_105:10-12 make clear.
That seems to be very clearly looking forward in time...
Quote from: martincisneros on December 11, 2008, 05:42:15 AM
Either from Genesis 1:1 to 1Corinthians 15:28 or from Genesis 1:26 to 1Corinthians 15:28 is the thousand generations.
QuoteI don't believe that "no man knows the day and the hour" would refer to this issue of the thousandth generation. Even if it did, that doesn't mean that even the first Adam would be paying the least bit of attention to what's going on or that he'd be keeping count.
If I look at "the coming of the anti-christ" site I do get an impression that several people spend lots and lost of time of keeping track of when the end (is supposed to) come.
If what I ask is true I'm sure some will spend lots of time calculating. Of course that doesn't mean calculations will be correct.
Quotethere's more than one covenant in Scripture and determining which one it speaks of can be tedious 'cause there are covenants of health and wealth, protection and deliverance, sanctification and baptism with power, the covenant of righteousness that we all have by faith, His sworn oath that every man, woman, child, animal, angel, and anything or anyone else is His, and additional covenants beyond that.
I assume none of those convenants where labeled "1000 genearations" when they started?
QuoteI've seen so much in the Bible's usage of numbers and how precise they tend to be that I'm very deeply hesitant to fall back on the metaphor claims of others or that in some way it's just speaking generally that He'll always keep these particular promises in their present form on their present terms and conditions and with the current kinds of provision without a clearer revelation from Him on that that these present provisions would always provide exactly what mankind would ever conceivably need beyond the thousandth generation.
I don't understand what you wrote here.
The first part seems to say you believe the number 1000 is literal because you have plenty of proof numbers are correct troughout the Bible.
If so I agree. It's taking a shortcut calling everything that isn't understood a methaphor or spiritual meaning.
Not saying there can't be spiritual meanings as a hidden extra. But that's not what this post is about.
Thanks to all for the on-topic replies!
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 11:16:48 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 11, 2008, 02:01:53 AM
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.
Taffy,
I picked out that one verse because it is the most relevant one.
Do you mean a generation maybe just means a year?
Maybe it's some sort of translation error?
Some for example claim that what we read as years in the English translations stricktly means 'repeating' in old Hebrew.
For example he was 20 repeatings in prison. Could mean years, seasons, moon cycles.
Yo WW
I dont think youll like my answer toooooooooooooo much. :laughing7:
Life is about the destruction of "MAN" so Life can Be revealed .
Numbers have meaning within scripture and I dont mean Just Maths.
A thousand can Mean " Divine completeness ".
so hear ya go.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy
sight(Is Christ as a """""""" day""""""" is like a Thousand Years , and we are those who Walk In the Day , wee SEE\SIGHT in THE LIGHT) [are but] as
yesterday( Christ is the sameYESTERDAY, TO DAY ,and Tomorrow) when it is
past, and [as] a watch in the night.(The OLD C passes as a WATCH in the NIGHT) , the Yesterday which is PAST IS the Old C,which BEARS witness to WHO is the LIGHT( LIKE),
So,the old C bears witness to the NEW which was the same Yesterday(Christ) TO DAY( Christ) TO morrow) Christ, BY which ALL THREE make it Complete bearing witness to one another...THREE being Complete In ONE.
Bet ya wish ya Never ASKED NOW :icon_jokercolor:
All FLESH is Grass Isa 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry?
All flesh [is] grass, and all the goodliness thereof [is] as the flower of the field:
The feild is the World
Mat 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the
grass of the field, which
to day is (THE TO DAY of time was the OLD C,but even so, its Christ who is LIFE and TO DAY, Tis TWO FOLD), and
to morrow, (will be the New C ,which again is Christ) is
cast into the oven, [shall he] not
much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
:icon_flower:
?
Quote from: Taffy on December 11, 2008, 11:48:12 AM
I dont think youll like my answer toooooooooooooo much. :laughing7:
Guess what we have an agreement :laughing7:
a] Because it still doesn't answer if the 1000 generations, symbolicly or not, look back or forward from Abraham.
b] Because IMO the "it's spiritual" answers are just atking the easy way out. Plus it takes away some depth out of the scriptures. Personally I think by always using "it's spiritual" you are throwing out at least half of what is in the Bible...
QuoteThe problem is that a verse (revelation?) states that not even the Son knows when the end of times is.
So 1000 year forward is unbiblical.
WW does it not say he does not know the day or hr.?
lets say Jesus told me that He was coming back in 2010 Jan.1 at 10am, and I announced that to the world, that 2010 Jan.1 at 10am would be right for me, but for someone in Japan that time would be wrong as it would still be dec. over there. (I think I don't remember if their behind us in time or ahead). So no one know that day or hr.
Let say Jesus told me this 2010 Jan.1 at 10am time 20 years ago when I was living in Alberta Can. But I now live in Ontario Can. Does the time then change because I moved into a different time zone? Thus how can anyone know the day and hr.
Not a very good example but I hope you can see what I am getting at.
I understand your point. I think we should always use "Jewish time"
-> Just a thought. I have nothing to prove that claim. It just seems very logical.
If the OT writes "Jesus returned the evening before Sabbath" do you get puzzeled by:
Evening/sabbath in Israel, Japan or Autralia?
The fact that "not even the Son knows" means it's very much hidden. Not just a little time zone problem.
If even the brains of Jesus can't figure it out....
yes the day and Hr. but nothing is said about not knowing the generation/1000 years in which He is to return.
Thus it could mean forward in time, correct?
Surely it could be forward in time.
My replies aren't to debunk any views but merely showing I personally have conflicting views on this verse.
Neither am I sure that there is any link with Revelation.
If you completely clear you mind and just read the verse; what does it say when applying the normal grammer rules?
I still have a (small) bias toward "looking into the past"
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 03:12:19 PM
Surely it could be forward in time.
My replies aren't to debunk any views but merely showing I personally have conflicting views on this verse.
Neither am I sure that there is any link with Revelation.
If you completely clear you mind and just read the verse; what does it say when applying the normal grammer rules?
I still have a (small) bias toward "looking into the past"
I'll take a look at them in context later bro as I got to run, so to qoute Arnold "I'll be back" and don't you dare say thanks for the warning :laughing7:
I have no real thoughts of how the 1000 generations work
I just for some reason believe the 1000 is symbolic
in nature thoughout Gods Word
more so than literal in nature Gods wisdom confounds the wise in this world
so my natural reasoning serves me no earthly good in this world
sort of like pissing against the wind ? :mblush: as if i could :laughing7:
Psa 105:8 He remembers His covenant for the eon, The word He enjoined on a thousand generations, (Concordant Version)
The Bible does not always look to the past but often to the future.
Some of us believe this is for the new earth which might last 1000 generations until that final eon ends.
Much clearer translation that seems to measure the length of the eon.
QuoteThe Bible does not always look to the past but often to the future.
Agreed. It's just not always clear to me when. Like with this verse.
QuoteSome of us believe this is for the new earth which might last 1000 generations until that final eon ends.
Doesn't the new earth last a 1000 years=reign of Jesus?
It would add a third interpretation to the verse:
a] Looks into the past and ended when the words where spoken.
b] Looks into the future starting right after the words are spoken.
c] Looks into the future and starts at a date known only to Father.
Scott,
Arnie won't be back 'till the end of next year. Until then a weekly dose of Summer Glau.
Psalm 105:8-10
8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. 9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; 10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
1 Chronicles 16:15-19
15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; 16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; 17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant, 18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance; 19 When ye were but few, even a few, and strangers in it.
WW If you read 1 Chronicles 16:15-19 together with Psalm 105:8-10 I think it is evident that it speaking of looking forward and not backward in time.
For it say the 1000 generation covenant was made with Abraham and as the covenant was made with Abe and confirmed by oath to Isaac and confirmed for a law to Jacob, shows forth that the 1000 generation covenant starting with Abe and moving forward in time to his son and then his sons son. A process showing forward in time not backward in time.
Scott,
That's a clear answer :thumbsup:
My problem is that I don't know enough verses to link between books. (unless accidently found)
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 06:41:41 PM
Scott,
That's a clear answer :thumbsup:
My problem is that I don't know enough verses to link between books. (unless accidently found)
WW, who does?
Bible aids are good for reference, word searches or phrases which link verse ,with verse all throu Scripture..
Gives you the chance to see how thay all work with each Other Bud.
Build up ya Vocab sorta Speak My Matey :icon_flower:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 06:41:41 PM
Scott,
That's a clear answer :thumbsup:
My problem is that I don't know enough verses to link between books. (unless accidently found)
I agree with Taff bro, the only thing I knew was that I had read Ps.105 someplace else so I had to go look for it by putting key words in my search engine. Heck if left up to my own memory I would forget what I just wrote :laughing7:
Quote from: Taffy on December 11, 2008, 06:49:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 06:41:41 PM
Scott,
That's a clear answer :thumbsup:
My problem is that I don't know enough verses to link between books. (unless accidently found)
WW, who does?
If I have to take a guess.... Martin and Craig.