pews, pulpits, rectories and stained glass windows?

[fire walker]

Where did all the material things we associate with churches today show up on the religious scene?  Steeples, pews, stained glass windows, rectories, pulpits and all these strange items, the only other place anything like pews are found is in older style court rooms sometimes where the jury sits at a trial, or the formal old uncomfortable benches in the hallways outside the doorways of court rooms, or even the clothing associated with clergy in some churches? Like the Catholic Nuns used to wear black habbits that kind of reminds me of the burkas the Islamic women were or in some cases still are forced to wear?
Or the formal black suits, black hats and ties the older line Mormons wear at certain LDS events?

Reading through the bible I think the word pulpit is only used once, nothing in there about how often the church should meet, the early church didn't even have bibles in print as we do today, most everything was delivered by letter or in person to person oraly, no instruction about  formal or informal, how many at one time or where, sometimes meetings were held in open fields, houses or maybe an amphi theater for a larger gathering, nothing about it had to be a building with steeples, stained glass windows, pews or pulpits or how short or long the meeting was to last,  so when did all this fly in through the window of the places we call church today? all the formalities, rigidness
and to the letter scheduled sermons, singing and so forth to be the same things over and over again once a week without fail, isn't it rather boring  and dead in the spirit?

Peace,
Fire Walker

[WhiteWings]

A great pillar, or sun-ray obelisk was the solar religion's primitive high place, condemned by Scripture as a "pillar of jealousy" ~ secretly interpreted as a male fertility symbol. Various tower designs such as steeples, pagodas, turrets, ziggurats, minarets, spires, obelisks, and pyramids have served Pagans well. The Temple did not have a high place, nor do synagogues! These high places would receive the first hallowed rays of dawn.

How about "monks"? Or nuns? Well, Pagans have all of these things, and always have. The "Dalai Lama" means "highest monk". Has someone "monked around" with a few things? Nuns were Pagan temple prostitutes; or virgins who kept watch over the "sacred fires". In Zoroastrian ritual, men did this.
They wore black, being called "dark ones" because their robes became soiled too easily with the soot and ashes of keeping the "sacred fires" going. These fires were used to sacrifice human lives. Monks also wear red ceremonial robes, symbolic of the fire of the sun.

Israel had no one dressed in black or red ~ the priests wore white linen. Try to picture Jesus wearing black! There were no shavenheaded monks, because such "trimming" was specifically forbidden by the Creator at Lev. 19, most likely because the Pagans did it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, but people wear black today to funerals because the pagans often burned their dead on raised platforms. The smoke and ashes soiled their garments, so ashes became a symbol of mourning.

[WhiteWings]

It was what the Pagan priests of Mithraism and Mandaeanism called their Mass of the Dead, which was a ghastly "sacra-mental" ritual of animal and human sacrifice ~ on an indoor "altar", with the Pagan worshippers assembled in two rows of benches with a center aisle. The Pagan priest would be at one end of the room, mumbling obscurely, leading the service to Mithras. At the spring equinox, new "initiates" into the mysteries of the cult were "baptized" (sprinkled) in blood, under a bull being hacked to death. This was the time which the Earth's orbit "crossed" the celestial equator. These sun-worshippers interpreted this as "Mithras slaying the bull " ~ the sun had "crossed" over the celestial equator, overcoming the "bull", which they called the constellation of Taurus (Latin for "bull"). Every "Mass" is truly a Black Mass! The Pagan mind "mixed" this up with the Passover Seder known as "the Last Supper", and POOF! The 'magic' became our Sun-Day morning "supper".

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yep, the first "churches" were in homes if they were being persecuted, in synagogues if they were not. That's why the disciples are mentioned as teaching in the synagogue, and even Jesus taught in the synagogues.

The first to be born thru the new covenant were the Jews, 3000 of them as told in the account in Acts. 2, from all parts of the then world, there because of the commandment to assemble in Jerusalem for Pentecost. Jewish males 21 and over were commanded to come to Jerusalem for the 3 feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.

We know these things are being spiritually fulfilled in us, and we are celebrating the feast of Tabernacles (Booths) NOW, by bringing in that which has given us life and shade/covering (green branches/scriptures with the life revealed) and COLLECTIVELY building a "nest" to dwell in, as "eagles", a type of overcomer.

In the older versions of Strong's concordance, the word "mansions" as in, "in My Father's house are many mansions", was listed as having a meaning of NESTS, also. Makes a lot of sense with the understanding of what Jesus spoke as He cried over Jerusalem, in the aspect of El Shaddai (mother/many-breasted One), ie. how He would have COVERED her with His WINGS, as mother hen covers her young (in the nest).

Now doesn't that make a big difference in your understanding? Especially coupled with the polar opposite; which is the BASKET (woven like a nest) which would have been carried on the HEAD of the baker (of Pharaoh's prison, who was put to death), and Jezebel, who has every foul and hateful BIRD (imaginations of the carnal mind/evil spirits), and whose end is to be burned with FIRE. And so she is, as the tongues of FIRE fell on the HEADS on the day of Pentecost.

And so only the cupbearer in prison was set free, ie. those that make themselves available to be broken and reformed as vessels to pour the new wine of the Kingdom out of. Blessings...

[sparrow]

pews, pulpits, rectories, stained glass windows....

it's all so...unnecessary, eh?

[WhiteWings]

pews, pulpits, rectories, stained glass windows....

it's all so...unnecessary, eh?

I must start saying I only saw a few churches on the inside. But there seems to be quite a difference between Protestant and Catholic churches.
The Protestant churches are quite sober. The Catholic ones are filled with art, statues, gold, carved would, marble-stone (don't know the name in English)

[fire walker]

I wonder what the Jews decorated the synogogue of Satan that Jesus mentioned with, Idols perhaps? another thing that always puzzled me was that the Levites were a portion of all 12 houses of Israel until the kingdom split into two kingdoms and even wared against each other where as before this they were united in one kingdom, the levites by many sold all they had and went south into the Kingdom of Judah after the split, so where was this Synogogue of Satan at? in the kingdom of Judah or the Kingdom of Israel?
Isn't it possible that the Church became influenced by the religion found in the Synogogue of Satan as well as the Pagan
influence from other Nations when it come to building temples or buildings designed for religious ceremonies?  It is known that many Israelites and Jews alike fell into Idol worship at some point in time, I do not believe that all the negative actions of the Church that is beared up by documented historical accounts came in completely from the Pagan Nations alone but from the negative activities that had developed in Judaism as well, Jesus knew about the synogogue of Satan and even mentioned it.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[jabcat]

I really didn't know much about it, so I searched a little...found this that made some sense to me, don't know how accurate it is, and I would guess there's more about it to know...

"Those in the "synagogue of Satan" say they are spiritual Jews—pretend to be real Christians—but are not. This false church was already developing in the days of the apostle John, masquerading as God's true church. It had congregations in the cities of Smyrna and Philadelphia in Asia Minor even at that early time. It and its daughter churches are further described in Revelation 17."   One guy's opinion.  :dontknow:

I've heard some "churches" you can donate a certain amount of $ and get a plaque put on the pew with your name on it...same with stained glass windows...hmmm..something about that just doesn't sound right, does it?

[Cardinal]

I wonder what the Jews decorated the synogogue of Satan that Jesus mentioned with, Idols perhaps? another thing that always puzzled me was that the Levites were a portion of all 12 houses of Israel until the kingdom split into two kingdoms and even wared against each other where as before this they were united in one kingdom, the levites by many sold all they had and went south into the Kingdom of Judah after the split, so where was this Synogogue of Satan at? in the kingdom of Judah or the Kingdom of Israel?
Isn't it possible that the Church became influenced by the religion found in the Synogogue of Satan as well as the Pagan
influence from other Nations when it come to building temples or buildings designed for religious ceremonies?  It is known that many Israelites and Jews alike fell into Idol worship at some point in time, I do not believe that all the negative actions of the Church that is beared up by documented historical accounts came in completely from the Pagan Nations alone but from the negative activities that had developed in Judaism as well, Jesus knew about the synogogue of Satan and even mentioned it.

Peace,
Fire Walker

:cloud9: The synagogue of Satan is in the heart of man. Would it look more familiar to  you if I worded it this way....."Satan sits in the TEMPLE declaring that he is God " ?
Nearly everyone assumes that the book the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the things therein, are for a future event. Blessings...

[Pierac]

Where did all the material things we associate with churches today show up on the religious scene?  Steeples, pews, stained glass windows, rectories, pulpits and all these strange items, the only other place anything like pews are found is in older style court rooms sometimes where the jury sits at a trial, or the formal old uncomfortable benches in the hallways outside the doorways of court rooms, or even the clothing associated with clergy in some churches? Like the Catholic Nuns used to wear black habbits that kind of reminds me of the burkas the Islamic women were or in some cases still are forced to wear?
Or the formal black suits, black hats and ties the older line Mormons wear at certain LDS events?

Reading through the bible I think the word pulpit is only used once, nothing in there about how often the church should meet, the early church didn't even have bibles in print as we do today, most everything was delivered by letter or in person to person oraly, no instruction about  formal or informal, how many at one time or where, sometimes meetings were held in open fields, houses or maybe an amphi theater for a larger gathering, nothing about it had to be a building with steeples, stained glass windows, pews or pulpits or how short or long the meeting was to last,  so when did all this fly in through the window of the places we call church today? all the formalities, rigidness
and to the letter scheduled sermons, singing and so forth to be the same things over and over again once a week without fail, isn't it rather boring  and dead in the spirit?

Peace,
Fire Walker

You can find all that information and more in this book... Pagan-Christianity

http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Origins-Modern-Practices/dp/0966665732/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240802825&sr=1-3


Here is another good book... Rethinking the Wineskin: The Practice of the New Testament Church

http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Wineskin-Practice-Testament-Church/dp/0940232766/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240802907&sr=1-5

Paul

[reFORMer]

As far as things believed or done of pagan origin, they are myriad in Institutional Christianity. There once was a religion that existed for about 300 years that had no special holy men (priests), no holy places (temples) and no holy objects for veneration (idols). We were the priests. We were the temple . . .

UNSCRIPTURAL MODERN CHURCH PRACTICES
a short select list with some origins noted

The Single Bishop (predecessor of the modern pastor) Possibly originating with Ignatius of Antioch around 115 AD though the earliest copy of his letters is from about 1,000 years later. The model of on-bishop-rule did not prevail in the churches until the third century after Christ. I don't care how knowledgeable and gifted the man on stage is. He's not the body of Christ; and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!

The Title "Pastor" Roman Catholic priests who became Protestant ministers were not universally called "Pastors" until the 18th century under the influence of Lutheran Pietists.

Hierarchical Leadership Brought into the church by Constantine in the 4th century. This was the leadership style of the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans. In the Church there are no other mediators. God, Who is JEALOUS, relates to each of us directly. Even if it is in someone else, it is God Himself with Whom we are dealing. Jesus suffered and died in order to bring us into direct intimacy with God. Now other men are inserted between us and God and they expect us to pay them for it! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Clergy and Laity "Laity" first appears in the writings of Clement of Rome (d.100). "Clergy" first appears in Tertullian (160-225). By the 3rd century, Christian leaders were universally called "clergy." Though without Scriptural warrant, the largest order in Institutional Christianity is Laynmen.  Its two rules are: 1.) the layman doesn't know what's good for him; and, 2.) the layman isn't to be allowed influence over other laymen.

Modern Ordination Evolved from the 2nd century to the 4th. It was taken from the Roman custom of appointing men to civil office. The idea of the ordained minister as the"holy man of God" can be traced to Augustine (293-373), Gregory of Nazianzus (329-389), and Chrysostom (347-407). Paul bragged that he was not "ordained" of men and regarded men in authority in the Church as nothing before God (Ga 1:1,2:6.) We already have a living and present head in Christ Jesus.

The "Covering" Doctrine Cyprian of Carthage (200-258), a former pagan orator. Revived under Juan Carlos Oritz from Argentina and the "Fort Lauderdale Five" from the USA, creating the so-called "Shepherding-Discipleship Movement" in 1970's. It is another man in bed with a husband and his wife, telling the wife that to love your husband you must go through me. Not a good place to be considering the husband is a jealous God.

The Modern Sermon Borrowed from the Greek sophists, who were masters at oratory and rhetoric. John Chrysostom (347-407) and Augustine (354-430) popularized the Greco-Roman homily (sermon) and made it a central part of the Christian Faith. Except for special occasions of more prophetic-like addresses, there's no Biblical warrant for doing, certainly not every time we meet by the same paid man, which is against every member participation.

The Sunday Morning order of Worship Evolved from Gregory's Mass in th 6th century to the revisions made by Luther, Calvin, the Puritans, the Free Church tradition, the Methodists, the Frontier-Revivalists, and the Pentecostals. The N.T. presents a "round-table structure" as the normal way for believers to function under the headship of Christ when they gather together. The "lecture structure" is for beginning or special meetings. If you have the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit then all that Jesus is and does is in you. Your degree of maturity is the extent to which you raise up His expression in others. (1 Cor 14:24-31, Eph 4:10-16)

The Pastor's Chair (a throne, elevated on a platform above the ordinary believers), Tax-Exempt Status (The Church is the most profitable entity on the earth,) Stained Glass Windows, The Steeple (phallic symbol in Egyptian Mystery Cults,) The Pulpit, The Pew (added after the Reformation of the late 1500's because of lengthy expository preaching)

The Church Building Started by Constantine around 327 AD, The first church buildings were patterned after the Roman basilicas which were modeled after Greek temples. In the N.T., the early church and even today again for the majority worldwide, the home is normally where to meet. We are the temple of God.

Various points about costumes, special clothing, and dressing up could be made.

The Worship Team Calvary Chapel in 1965, patterned after the secular rock concert. The problem is blocking every member participation. In such a setting, how are we encouraged to lead forth with a song God puts in our hearts?

Tithing Did not become a widespread Christian practice until the 8th century. The tithe was taken from the 10% rent-charge used in the Roman Empire and later justified by the Old Testament. While much is said about giving, nothing is said about tithing after the resurrection. Tithing says: "10% for God and 90% for me." While the New Covenant mentality, according to Jesus, is: "Any man among you that forsaketh not all that he hath cannot be my disciple."

The Lord's Supper Condensed From a Full "Agape" Meal to Only the Cup and the Bread The late 2nd century as a result of pagan ritual influences. The "Agape" continued into the 800's. While not every time we meet, fellowship meals are practiced by some churches today, though they seldom include "The Lord's Supper" or Eucharist.


(Excerpted from a list by Gene Edwards in his book Beyond Radical and a list by Frank Viola in his book Pagan Christianity with additional comments by me, James Rohde.)

[Cardinal]

Even if it is in someone else, it is God Himself with Whom we are dealing. Jesus suffered and died in order to bring us into direct intimacy with God.

:cloud9: There is so much to your post to comment on, all of it truth, but I wanted to touch on this. Not much is written about the feast of Tabernacles, because spiritually it was not set to occur till the end of this age, which is upon us now. But I know from the experience of the Spirit giving me a taste of it with me, that it involves, among other things, Him quickening or making life out of things that others have had deposited within the Christ in them, and it doesn't even matter if they are what others call "saved", because He has deposited in them as well, though they know it not, and are merely holding the Truth (Word) in UNrighteousness. It is feasting upon fat things, the secret things He has hidden in His pavilions (same word there as is translated tabernacles elsewhere). It is literally Him feeding us the marriage supper of the Lamb, out of the abundance of His kingdom in others.

So if the spiritual body of Christ, that many membered body, is not allowed to raise up to maturity within, then it delays the spiritually fulfilled feast of Tabernacles. The basic message of churchdom of those that are not moving in the Spirit in this season, is found within 1Kings chapter 12. This is a long excerpt, but it's worth reading.

1Kings 12: 27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah. 28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold , and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

:cloud9: Two calves of gold here is pivotal. The calves were for sacrificing, and they represent putting our souls on the altar, ie. making of ourselves a living sacrifice, a sweet smelling savor unto the Lord. Gold speaks of the higher nature of a thing, and in this case, the very best works of the flesh has to offer.

But our best is still not good enough, our righteousness no matter how good it looks in the appearance realm, is still as filthy rags. There were two offered as a counterfeit feast of Tabernacles sacrifice because the root of Tabernacles is to bring the spirit/Adam and the soul/Eve back into union in Him, by laying down our soulish life to take on the life of the Spirit.

29 And he set the one in Bethel (means house of God), and the other put he in Dan (means judgment). 30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.

31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people , which were not of the sons of Levi. 32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month , like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar.

So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made. 33 So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart ; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.

What this is, is what is happening now. The false king has devised a counterfeit feast of Tabernacles. It's not in the place God ordained, nor the way God ordained, and it's timing is AFTER the appointment that God made, a month later than He ordained.

This is basically what is being said; don't go UP (ascend) to Jerusalem, it is too hard for you, and if you do you will kill me (the false "king" ruling in the temple). If you go back a few verses, God tells the good King not to go after them to do battle with them, "because this thing is of Me." The reason it is of Him is because it is being used to sift. Father, help us all to overcome and come into Your presence behind the veil, at the appointed time You have set. Blessings to all....

[fire walker]

If I am recalling this accurately they were also told not to go up to Jerusalem and try to preach to the false King in the Temple because it would be out of due timing and a futile thing to do, and also as you say because God tells the Good King that this thing is of him, of God himself and it is not our place to try to alter or manipulate the
work of the spirit of God unless we be caught up in the clutches of the False King himself to do his biding unawares by just going there.

We can not do the work of the Spirit, this is all his workmanship and none of ours, not a one of us can change our due time, speed up or slow down being called in our order and that is because we are his workmanship and not our own, what God wills to be will be and for the good of all in the finish, todays institutionaly organized religious churches directly or indirectly imply that it is all up to us and that we must do exactly as our earthly religious institutions say and comply to the letter or go to hell, this is completely upside down and is also a LIE and I didn't even have to go to someplace called church to see the truth about the harlots of Babylon, not even the most well intended and the very best of all in the flesh can change one thing about what ways God does his work because his ways are not the ways of natural man.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, that's it, Firewalker........as many as are led of the Spirit, are the sons of God. There was a season that I wanted to shake all free that are in Babylon's clutches, but it was not His will and out of timing. All trees bear fruit in their own season, and we can't hurry it up to suit ourselves. Blessings to you........

[fire walker]

:cloud9: There was a season that I wanted to shake all free that are in Babylon's clutches, but it was not His will and out of timing.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Card,
I appreciate the edifieing reply.

Personaly I have never had a desire to shake anyone lose from Babylon, not that I don't care about them but I was moved a long time ago to leave that to God, all those
caught up in the Babylonian religious system, paying their tithes and donating all their time and money to their church for paint jobs, new carpets for the rectory, stained glass windows, new pews, bigger and more expensive churches all the time, programs and such, most are well meaning folks and one can't help having love for them in spirit, however on a personal basis I get irritated by all the preaching to conform to their religious ways, it is a form of persecution we go through I suppose, but it does weary one over the years.

It is easy to see why one would want to shake folks free from the clutches of Babylonian religion, however I have learned that is not my job or anyone elses job to do the work of Gods spirit, those who think it is their job have exalted themselves into the high towers of Babylon itself unawares, a place of debt and bondage even though only temporal it is still a miserable place to be.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Firewalker.......we come out of Babylon only to discover we didn't get all of Babylon out of us  :winkgrin: :laughing7:......God does have a sense of humor, doesn't He?  :winkgrin: Blessings....