Personal Reflections on My Life and the United States

[Graph1159]

I have decided, based on some comments I read in the FreeKimDavisNow thread, that it may help some other believers if I make this post. This post is not meant to criticize any comments by other members. Instead, I am writing this because I feel there are other people out there who secretly have thoughts such as mine but do not know a way to express themselves Biblically, so they hide their fears inside instead of opening themselves up to the Lord.

If God doesn't judge this nations sins and let it fall, He'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah"  -Cardinal

How ironic.  A Christian in America is jailed for following her faith.

And, nobody says, boo.

If this is not the end times, I don't know what is.

I am naturally inclined to assume that other Christians are better than myself. I believe there are Christians who have assurance in their heart that they are living for God, and they are grieved by what they see around them. They have the right to make statements such as those quoted above. But I cannot say "amen" to such statements unless I want to consign myself to the same fate. My conscience does not assure me that, if the nation falls because of its deeds, that I will be spared because of my deeds. If someone were to tell me that I am a nominal Christian who has been asleep, my rebuttal may contain the leaky bucket fallacy.

Romans 2:2-3 - "You say, 'We know that God's judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.' Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?"

Romans 3:12 - "All have turned aside, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, there is not even one."

I am not confident enough in my own morality to say that the balance of good vs bad works in my life is superior to that of the Supreme Court members, Obama, Hollywood, or the Average Joe of America. I may not have the same sins that they do. For example, I am not a fornicator, but I cannot take credit for that because I am asexual and have never understood sex appeal to start with.

Perhaps my problem is that I have a very obsessive conscience that constantly scrutinizes myself and will always find some issue. But God isn't going to let me off the hook because of this, given that we are judged according to our conscience (Rom. 2:15-16).

So, then, is my fate tied to the United States? I have hope that this is not the case. I feel that God has worked in my life to make me aware of the fact that I do not deserve to be spared. I believe that I have died to sin in Christ and that I am in the process of leaving the old life behind and coming into a life of new wisdom and new motivation (Romans 6). My lifestyle has started changing in a positive way.

Perhaps God is leading me through this process now because He knows the nation will fall soon, and He is preparing me to stand strong in my faith and play a special role during the crisis.

But while I go through this transformation, I cannot pronounce a fate for the country unless I want that same fate for myself. In God's infinite wisdom, He has a process going in my life that I did not forsee, so I do not yet feel enlightened to speak about what He will or will not do for the country.

As I said earlier, I am not criticizing any comments by other members. I sense that the comments quoted above were made with real conviction. I am writing to Christians who feel a need to push comments about judgment out of their minds due to a sense of insecurity.

Samuel

[sheila]

..this is a lovely heart felt post. When our own hearts condemn us...He is greater than our own hearts.

   always remember..when He comes to judge..the people will learn righteousness. This nation/world has lost it's way......

   remember His corrective measures are designed to turn us away from folly...and back to what is right.

   also remember..when Jesus was here.......His anger was directed at those with hardcore hearts full of hypocrisy...Pharoah's example

also serves to show us how vessel's of destruction[man in corrupt image] serve Him in expressing the evil/negative against His good.


     God has always judged the nations/Kings/ruler's of this earth.When Nebuchaddnezer come under judgement for 7 years..and

    behaved like a beast...he confessed..the Sovereignty of God and Him who sets up and throws down kings.  It is a lesson

  that all nations must learn.

     Jonathan Kahn has videos you can watch on youtube...regarding the Harbingers/our 911 world trade towers etc..and the

  great parellel's recorded in Isaaih 9,10 that mirror God's judgement of Israel when she rebelled against God.

   God is gracious to men whose hearts are requesting mercy for the fleshly weakness...as they endeavour to love what is right and

do unto other's as they would have them do unto you.  But there are men..and powers and principalities in high places that

seek God's throne above the stars[Abraham's seed as the stars of heaven.......those that serve as light in the darkness of this world]

   when they sought Daniel..they said..we will find nothing against him unless it is concerning the worship of his God...and that is

what they used to accuse him before the King.

   He is King of Kings...and since their authority is granted by Him..it is He who disciplines/corrects/unseats etc...any temporal

  kingdoms in this realm.

   Jeremiah...when prophesying the coming judgements on his people..cried many tears....and stated...I am no better than them..

and we all know that we would differ not from any man..unless He had called us forth to act as ambassadors to be reconciled to God

  and make peace with God through faith in Jesus Christ and His blood.


    We know He shall save all men...and we also know He scourges all He recieves as sons.We know Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed

in one day...but they will return to what they were before.  WE know that just as we have all bore the image of the corrupt/so too,shall

we all bear the image of the incorrupt.

  What do we know..but that God has mercifully shown/revealed to us the salvation of all men..for a time like now...that our hearts

not give out[faint] at what we see coming upon the earth? 

   God Bless you..Graph...and all who hope in the mercy,grace and deliverance of mankind.



   

[Seth]

I have decided, based on some comments I read in the FreeKimDavisNow thread, that it may help some other believers if I make this post. This post is not meant to criticize any comments by other members. Instead, I am writing this because I feel there are other people out there who secretly have thoughts such as mine but do not know a way to express themselves Biblically, so they hide their fears inside instead of opening themselves up to the Lord.

If God doesn't judge this nations sins and let it fall, He'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah"  -Cardinal

How ironic.  A Christian in America is jailed for following her faith.

And, nobody says, boo.

If this is not the end times, I don't know what is.

I am naturally inclined to assume that other Christians are better than myself. I believe there are Christians who have assurance in their heart that they are living for God, and they are grieved by what they see around them. They have the right to make statements such as those quoted above. But I cannot say "amen" to such statements unless I want to consign myself to the same fate. My conscience does not assure me that, if the nation falls because of its deeds, that I will be spared because of my deeds. If someone were to tell me that I am a nominal Christian who has been asleep, my rebuttal may contain the leaky bucket fallacy.

Romans 2:2-3 - "You say, 'We know that God's judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.' Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?"

Romans 3:12 - "All have turned aside, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, there is not even one."

I am not confident enough in my own morality to say that the balance of good vs bad works in my life is superior to that of the Supreme Court members, Obama, Hollywood, or the Average Joe of America. I may not have the same sins that they do. For example, I am not a fornicator, but I cannot take credit for that because I am asexual and have never understood sex appeal to start with.

Perhaps my problem is that I have a very obsessive conscience that constantly scrutinizes myself and will always find some issue. But God isn't going to let me off the hook because of this, given that we are judged according to our conscience (Rom. 2:15-16).

So, then, is my fate tied to the United States? I have hope that this is not the case. I feel that God has worked in my life to make me aware of the fact that I do not deserve to be spared. I believe that I have died to sin in Christ and that I am in the process of leaving the old life behind and coming into a life of new wisdom and new motivation (Romans 6). My lifestyle has started changing in a positive way.

Perhaps God is leading me through this process now because He knows the nation will fall soon, and He is preparing me to stand strong in my faith and play a special role during the crisis.

But while I go through this transformation, I cannot pronounce a fate for the country unless I want that same fate for myself. In God's infinite wisdom, He has a process going in my life that I did not forsee, so I do not yet feel enlightened to speak about what He will or will not do for the country.

As I said earlier, I am not criticizing any comments by other members. I sense that the comments quoted above were made with real conviction. I am writing to Christians who feel a need to push comments about judgment out of their minds due to a sense of insecurity.

Samuel

Hi Graph,
It's my personal opinion that the Romans 2 passage you quoted is tied to Romans 1. That the judgement of trouble and distress is not as a result of God judging the entire nation, but allowing sinners to reap the bad fruit of their own sin. That they "receive in themselves the due penalty for their error." Because he turned them over to a debased mind and they created their own ruin within themselves.

If you are humble before God and you go to him and don't try to hide your sin from him as if he could be fooled, you will be fine. He judges the proud. You don't sound proud. He gives Grace to the humble. You sound humble to me.

[Seth]

God will not bring harm to his own people who are faithful. You will not be caught in the crossfire of some major national judgment. Don't let yourselves be fear mongered. You are NOT appointed to wrath. Jesus was raised and punctured cross for you, not so God would turn around and bring wrath down upon the heads of his believers. I've long abandoned that fear.

[rosered]

 

Remember    what the LORD spoke in judging His own   , I BELIEVE IT    ...  most are unjust judges  but some are reigning with the promised "rods of iron "   even now as than and will always   as long as men are walking the earth     2 Sam 7   God's Covenant with David
...13"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.


14"I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me;

when he commits iniquity,


I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,


15but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you....

   We know the LORD removed his spirit out of Saul and gave a troubling spirit to him      ,,
This to me is GOD will never leave us or forsake us     by HIS OWN SPIRIT OF LIFE    indwelling     ,  we are always blessed and forever thankful     to GOD for such mercy     .... 

we  know this is the    glorious  CHRIST     , and love Him for such ..

ps   hard to write I broke my arm last Sunday     :doh:

[eaglesway]

The rainfalls on the just and the unjust.

IMO when God allows a nation to reap what it sows, or actively judges that nation, believers who live in that nation will suffer in some of the same ways everyone else will- but they will not respond to that in the same ways unbelievers will. Sometimes the believers themselves will be blamed. The opportunity for testimony will abound, and precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His holy ones.

This is not about believers suffering the wrath of God. When chaos erupts unbelievers are forced to re-examine their foundations because all the things they depend upon begin to crumble.

When those foundations crumble believers stand and shine, because they are secured by a deeper stronger foundation, drinking from a deeper river.

Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed," says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Is 54:10

Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change And though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea; 3Though its waters roar and foam, Though the mountains quake at its swelling pride. Selah. 4There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, The holy dwelling places of the Most High.(Psalm 2)


I am sure there are many believers among the millions of refugees created by the Syrian war. They have been driven from their homes and are in very difficult circumstances, as are the masses of Islamic people whose lives have been disrupted by the chaos visited upon that region....


So sorry to hear about your arm Rosered!

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/11/world/syria-refugee-crisis-when-war-displaces-half-a-country/

[Seth]

I see a difference between believers experiencing difficult things, especially persecution (such as in Syria) in this life, and getting caught up in some major final calamity brought about by God and suffering his wrath meant for other people. I don't believe the faithful are appointed to wrath because the Bible says they aren't.

The Bible is clear that God uses persecution to grow beleivers in strength, and I see that as an expression of grace actually. But I don't go for a lot of the interpretation of Revelation that leads to the fears that I was raised with under dispensationalism.

[sheila]

 My cardiologist is Syrian..and Eastern orthodox.  I call him the wandering aramean.....he is dear to me.what disturbs me is Obams's

  refusal to deny the christians in these countries asylum because of persecution.

[sheila]

Deut 26;5    Then you shall declare before the Lord your God..;"My Father was a wandering Aramean,and he went down into Egypt with a few people to live there and became a great nation,powerful and nurmerous.  But the Egyptians mistreated us and made us suffer,putting us to hard labour...............

[eaglesway]

I see a difference between believers experiencing difficult things, especially persecution (such as in Syria) in this life, and getting caught up in some major final calamity brought about by God and suffering his wrath meant for other people. I don't believe the faithful are appointed to wrath because the Bible says they aren't.

The Bible is clear that God uses persecution to grow beleivers in strength, and I see that as an expression of grace actually. But I don't go for a lot of the interpretation of Revelation that leads to the fears that I was raised with under dispensationalism.

I agree with that Seth. That's why I believe that God's sustaining grace in the midst of trial is the deliverance and the testimony of believers in any circumstance.

Actually I didnt see anything in the thread or OP about a final apocalypse, just a reference to whether ones fate was tied to that of the nation in which they live and it's judgments. My point is that sometimes believers suffer when judgment comes to a nation, but thay do not suffer as unbelievers.

Nations rise and fall, empires, etc. Some people think we are at the end, I do not- but I could be wrong of course. If I find that I am I will rejoice for my redemption will be drawing nigh. It is the love of God and His sustaining Spirit in us that will see us through anything.

My encouragement to Graph(and myself) is that God loves us more intensely than we know- as individuals as well as altogether. If we fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, He that has begun a good work in us will complete it till the Day of Christ Jesus, and He will see us through any storm, using all circumstances to transform us into the image of Christ and fill us up with love.

If we fear circumstance, we suffer from that which has not come and may not come, and are less equipped to deal with it if it does come.

I have been a believer for forty years and all that time I have heard that imminent destruction is on the horizon. I was parylized and tormented by this fear for the first 5 years or so of my walk with God. Eventually God brought me peace.......

Not by showing me that judgment wasnt coming or that the U.S. would stand or that I would get raptured out or anything like that.

He just convinced me of His love and assured me He will care for me in any circumstance because He is God.

"Be still(cease striving, worrying, fretting) and know(fully embrace and rest in the assurance) that I am God."

Fear and worry are ineffectual taskmasters and they dont lead us beside still pastures.

The secret place of the Most High is trusting in His good will towards us- not trusting in our righteousness or our ability to discern the signs of the apocalypse :o)

[rosered]

 

Thank you John  :HeartThrob:

I also remember the scripture  saying the tender mercies /compassion of the wicked are cruel      , it is true we reap what we sow     , sowing top the flesh reaps  corruption    ,  the LORD   IS THE INCORRUPTIBLE  WORD OF LIFE     , not so many   in the world  know or  live by this WORD  , sadly     :sigh:    proverbs 12   
'Loving Discipline and Knowledge    :friendstu:
...9Better is he who is lightly esteemed and has a servant Than he who honors himself and lacks bread.


10A righteous man has regard for the life of his animal, But even the compassion of the wicked is cruel.


11He who tills his land will have plenty of bread, But he who pursues worthless things lacks sense....

  The bread of LIFE   is our LORD JESUS CHRIST     I AM THE BREAD OF HEAVEN 

Jesus the Bread of Life
...50"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die


. 51"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"...

We all need JESUS and one another    for the BODY TO BE WHOLE   

[eaglesway]

As far as the U. S. is concerned, what the Lord has spoken to me( as I believe I hear Him- everyone must judge for themselves) is "Strengthen that which remains and is about to fall".

It is not over yet. There are still many true believers in this country. Remember Jonah, who wanted judgment to fall when God wanted deliverance,

God can chastise a nation before He judges it and chastisement can be severe but it is not the same as judgment. When the cup of a nation's iniquity is full, they are judged. Until then they are chastised and the prophets present the call to repent and the teachers teach the way of deliverance, but primarily.....

The salt must remain salty and the intercessors must continue to pray.

[Seth]

I appreciate your thoughts on it EW. Personally I believe the elect are like Lot and Abraham and Rahab. Saved from destruction. A preserved remnant is a strong pattern in scripture. If God is planning a major judgement upon the US, there's no reason for me to believe he is not also planning a rescue of his people as he has done so many times in the past. None of this is a foregone conclusion though at least not to me. I don't think we can predict exactly what God will do in regards to that. I personally believe that when Christians set themselves up to predict exactly what God is going to do and what nation he'll do it too and so on, they're setting themselves up to be proved wrong.

I think we who believe in UR could have an appreciation about that since we believe that God will behave much differently than most of Christianity says that they will and have believed so for the past few thousand years.

[Dandelion]

My encouragement to Graph(and myself) is that God loves us more intensely than we know- as individuals as well as altogether. If we fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, He that has begun a good work in us will complete it till the Day of Christ Jesus, and He will see us through any storm, using all circumstances to transform us into the image of Christ and fill us up with love.

If we fear circumstance, we suffer from that which has not come and may not come, and are less equipped to deal with it if it does come.

I have been a believer for forty years and all that time I have heard that imminent destruction is on the horizon. I was parylized and tormented by this fear for the first 5 years or so of my walk with God. Eventually God brought me peace.......

Not by showing me that judgment wasnt coming or that the U.S. would stand or that I would get raptured out or anything like that.

He just convinced me of His love and assured me He will care for me in any circumstance because He is God.

"Be still(cease striving, worrying, fretting) and know(fully embrace and rest in the assurance) that I am God."

Fear and worry are ineffectual taskmasters and they dont lead us beside still pastures.

The secret place of the Most High is trusting in His good will towards us- not trusting in our righteousness or our ability to discern the signs of the apocalypse :o)

Yes, yes, and yes! Everyday, every moment, walk in His peace and love, and we never have to fear anyone or anything.

His love, truth, and grace will sustain us, in the darkness, because He is the one true light.

We must always keep our eyes on Him.

"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33

:dsunny:

[Graph1159]

Thank you all for your replies. A lot of wise and Scriptural points have been brought up.

also remember..when Jesus was here.......His anger was directed at those with hardcore hearts full of hypocrisy...Pharoah's example also serves to show us how vessel's of destruction[man in corrupt image] serve Him in expressing the evil/negative against His good. God has always judged the nations/Kings/ruler's of this earth.When Nebuchaddnezer come under judgement for 7 years..and
behaved like a beast...he confessed..the Sovereignty of God and Him who sets up and throws down kings.  It is a lesson that all nations must learn.

This is a good point about judgment being directed at those who are proud. After all, pride goeth before the fall. It seems to me that whether a person is proud or humble is an indicator of what direction their life is headed.

Sometimes believers suffer when judgment comes to a nation, but thay do not suffer as unbelievers [ . . . ] I have been a believer for forty years and all that time I have heard that imminent destruction is on the horizon. I was parylized and tormented by this fear for the first 5 years or so of my walk with God. Eventually God brought me peace....... Not by showing me that judgment wasnt coming or that the U.S. would stand or that I would get raptured out or anything like that. He just convinced me of His love and assured me He will care for me in any circumstance because He is God.

"Be still(cease striving, worrying, fretting) and know(fully embrace and rest in the assurance) that I am God."

This is a great point and it ties in to what Sheila said about God's judgments being corrective. If God's judges the nation in order to bring righteousness, he may allow believers to experience the judgment in some sense in order for them to mature, but the experience of judgment would not be the same as it is for the unbelievers.

I can relate to what Eaglesway said about once having fear of imminent destruction. For a long time, I responded to these fears by trying to convince myself that severe judgment might not be coming because the nation wasn't any worse than it used to be. However, as Eaglesway said, peace doesn't come from deciding that judgment's not happening; instead, it comes from knowing God will care for me even if judgment does come.

15 "but My loving kindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you".... We know the LORD removed his spirit out of Saul and gave a troubling spirit to him     
This to me is GOD will never leave us or forsake us by HIS OWN SPIRIT OF LIFE indwelling,  we are always blessed and forever thankful to GOD for such mercy .... we know this is the glorious CHRIST, and love Him for such ..

ps   hard to write I broke my arm last Sunday     :doh:

Indeed, it is important to remember that God being merciful to us is part of His own essence. Thank you Rosered for writing even while having a broken arm; I pray that you experience healing soon.

You will not be caught in the crossfire of some major national judgment. Don't let yourselves be fear mongered. You are NOT appointed to wrath. Jesus was raised and punctured cross for you, not so God would turn around and bring wrath down upon the heads of his believers. I've long abandoned that fear.

If you are humble before God and you go to him and don't try to hide your sin from him as if he could be fooled, you will be fine. He judges the proud.

These are great points. Perhaps the whole point of preaching about judgment is to get people to a point in which they are humble and trust in what Jesus did for them, so that grace can lead to a new way of life. Fear-mongering seems counterproductive to me.

His love, truth, and grace will sustain us, in the darkness, because He is the one true light. We must always keep our eyes on Him.

"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Indeed, if we are in Christ, and He has overcome the world, then we can have peace and light in our lives regardless of what happens in the world.

Thank you all again for your encouraging words!

[rosered]

     Blessings Graph1159   and  thank you      , GOD BLESS   everyone  :HeartThrob:

[Dandelion]

Nice summary of your impressions, Graph.

Thank you for sharing with us. We are all better for it.

:dsunny:

D.

[Seth]

I agree, good summary. To answer the OP question: "is my fate tied to the United States?" I can only answer: first and foremost, your fate is tied to Jesus Christ.

You expressed concern in the OP about being "spared." That suggests to me a fear of, not some kind of corrective, kind, if stern, judgment to make you better (as an extension of grace), but of some calamity to befall a nation for judgment of its own sin as a form of wrath. It is by NO means a foregone conclusion that His people will suffer such a fate in this life.

I do believe there is comfort in the fact that the faithful are to be spared from at least SOME kind of wrathful judgment, such as how Paul talks about in 1 Thess 5: "the day shall come upon them like a thief in the night...sudden destruction shall come upon them and they shall not escape....but you are not like them that sleep...God has not appointed you to wrath." (paraphrased).

Paul IS comforting the the church about at least THAT kind of judgment (wrath) in my opinion. That doesn't mean everything is always going to be rosey. I never meant to suggest that. :dontknow:

[eaglesway]

I appreciate your thoughts on it EW. Personally I believe the elect are like Lot and Abraham and Rahab. Saved from destruction. A preserved remnant is a strong pattern in scripture. If God is planning a major judgement upon the US, there's no reason for me to believe he is not also planning a rescue of his people as he has done so many times in the past. None of this is a foregone conclusion though at least not to me. I don't think we can predict exactly what God will do in regards to that. I personally believe that when Christians set themselves up to predict exactly what God is going to do and what nation he'll do it too and so on, they're setting themselves up to be proved wrong.

I think we who believe in UR could have an appreciation about that since we believe that God will behave much differently than most of Christianity says that they will and have believed so for the past few thousand years.

I agree with the pattern of a preserved remnant in scripture. I also see a pattern of martyrdom, a smaller portion of the remnant underneath the altar. Also,  sometimes if God chastises a nation with economic distress or a natural disaster, the elect will suffer with the general populace, and in the midst of those difficulties, shine for Jesus.

[Seth]

Yes I do too  :thumbsup:

In the OP it's talking about getting lumped up in a judgement against the U.S. as punishment for one's own sins (ie "is my fate tied to the United States") And that's where I say, that those who confess their sins to God will be forgiven and strengthened in hard times (if God even decides not to provide escape which he tends to do), and those who don't will be flattened.

A judgement against the U.S. is often associated with some final calamity involving the "last days" which us why I brought it up, being an offshoot of the end of days thread, and my point is that we shouldn't worry so much about that, being that such a thing is an interpretation, not a given. Christ's message to his followers is "peace be unto you."

I understand your point about martyrdom and I agree with it.

[Seth]

One of my objections with Christian culture is how much warning there is about peace treaties and politics and how it's going to result in this massive blowback by God. Here he says blessed are the peacemakers, but if we make peace according to the church today, God's going to have some missiles thrown our way, and our children can be burned up with us. What happens is that they suggest that we all bear the sins of American policy and therefore the punishment together, so we better vote for the right politicians etc, so that God doesn't punish "us" for "our" sins. It's a way of riling up political support through fear.

So, we can't even work for peace without fearing, not our enemy, but God himself. Life is difficult enough without scaring the hell out if people about political machinations they can't even control, all based on a fairly recent (past 100 years since Darby) method of interpreting the Bible. It's just a sad state if affairs to me, so much worry and so little peace.

[eaglesway]

One of my objections with Christian culture is how much warning there is about peace treaties and politics and how it's going to result in this massive blowback by God. Here he says blessed are the peacemakers, but if we make peace according to the church today, God's going to have some missiles thrown our way, and our children can be burned up with us. What happens is that they suggest that we all bear the sins of American policy and therefore the punishment together, so we better vote for the right politicians etc, so that God doesn't punish "us" for "our" sins. It's a way of riling up political support through fear.

So, we can't even work for peace without fearing, not our enemy, but God himself. Life is difficult enough without scaring the hell out if people about political machinations they can't even control, all based on a fairly recent (past 100 years since Darby) method of interpreting the Bible. It's just a sad state if affairs to me, so much worry and so little peace.

I agree.

I also find it frustrating that people are so caught up in the eschatology of judgment and seek so little to understand the kingdom of God and the Body of Christ.

[Seth]

Amen to that

[Graph1159]

I think end-times judgment is so prevalent in Christian dialogue because the Bible is thematically an end-times book. The ending of an old, corrupt order, giving way to a new, righteous order, serves as an overarching framework in both the Old and New Testaments. This theme makes sense when we speak of God's ultimate plan for the world and humanity.

But how we apply this end-times theme to the present world is more complicated. Given that end-times references abound in Scripture, it is understandable that Christians who read the Bible a lot would believe we are only one step away from an all-out collapse of the world as we know it (and they have legitimate reasons to hold this outlook). But, the world has been chugging along for centuries in the midst of such warnings, and as Seth and Eaglesway have described, a doomsday mentality can cause some problems.

I've personally come to think that the most useful application of the "end-times" theme is not prediction of world events, but instead, relating the theme to our own experience of salvation as we transition from one way of life to another.

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup: