2 Corinthians 3:14-18 New International Version (NIV)
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:14-18 King James Version (KJV)
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
....I don't remember having read this passage before. To me, I've always felt a big disconnect between the old and new testaments, and many people explain that away or have rationalizations as to why that is the case.
Reading the OT and Moses causing a veil that can only be lifted by Christ?
Intriguing and it seems to be consistent with what I have been thinking about the OT/NT differences.
Aside from pointing to Jesus, which may or may not be interesting study, the OT was written for Jewish people at a particular point in history. Much of it isn't for us. It contains messages contrary to Christ's teaching, and attempts to harmonize it make for a schizophrenic view of God, IMO.
The OT May point to Jesus, but the NT is actual Jesus!
The OT has been described as the shadow of Christ, which to me...shadow is darkness. The truth is in
the light. Why look to the shadow, the darkness, when we can look directly toward the light/Jesus/God/love/truth and read the NT and have a personal experience with God here and now through prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit?
I don't see it as a distinction between old and new testament, but between regenerate and not yet regenerate. The veil in front of Moses's face keeps them from seeing God's reflected glory, so I think it is implying that they can't see God's glory in the law. The Law and ordinances were a shadow of better things to come and they just see the shadow.
The law was also a curse, You must tell them: This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Let a curse be on the man who does not obey the words of this covenant, (Jeremiah 11:3). The penalties for not keeping the law hardened people's hearts, making it more difficult to keep and increasing sin.
But your iniquities have built barriers between you and your God, and your sins have made Him hide His face from you so that He does not listen. (Isaiah 59:2) The darkness appears as God has hidden his face from us because we can't see him, if we don't know Jesus.
So God gave the oracles to a particular people and blinded them with the same oracles so they couldn't keep them or recognise him without his intervention. To increase the awareness of a need for a saviour that those oracles told of that they couldn't see. hmmm
These are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Messiah. (Colossians 2:17) If you know him then the veil is removed, maybe because he fulfilled it;
And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive with him and forgave us all our trespasses. 14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and disgraced them publicly; He triumphed over them by Him. (Colossians 2:13-15) I'm not sure why the ordinances are an obstacle to gentiles, maybe because they were against gentiles forming one body with jews?
Everything is always in him, as opposed to not in him. Only in him can people see God, he is the only way to the Father. This applies to the new testament as well, if they don't know him a veil will keep them from seeing the glorious truth.
Open my eyes so that I may contemplate wonderful things from Your instruction/Law. (Psalm 119:18). It was always about faith, without it we are blind.
"If you were blind," Jesus told them, "you wouldn't have sin. But now that you say, We see--your sin remains. (John 9:41) The blindness is in the mind, so we still think we see. But if we knew that we were blinded then we would call out through faith and not with our eyes.
If anyone hears My words and doesn't keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects Me and doesn't accept My sayings has this as his judge: The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day. (John 12:48)
Judged by a word we can't see if we haven't been given faith, because to see God is to be made like God and it was God who was the only one who could keep the Law.
I imagine the way we are judged is by the removal of the veil, we see God's glory, are changed and judge ourselves as his word. As people are sanctified they will hate their works in the flesh. IMO
What you wrote about lightness and darkness resonated with me but I think all of the scripture is for us.
edit. Probably shouldn't have used word 'regenerate', as in saved unsaved, not what I really meant. Mean more like beginnings of regeneration vs still seed
And everyone is in him in the sense that God has put everything under his feet (Ephesians 1:22) and everything was made in him, but I think the bible distinguishes between 'sealed with the holy spirit' and not as yet sealed.
Having said all of that I dont get this "You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I tell you, don't resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. Matthew 5:38-39
Jesus seemed to distinguish between the two?
I agree, the OT was the shadow of things to come, i.e., Jesus the Sacrifice, grace, union with Him, moving into greater glory (truly knowing Him and being made into His likeness, as we abide in Him).
I do see them as very different entities - primarily, the OT being God's dealings with His people Israel. Age of Law. NT bringing it all together with grafting in the gentiles (us) and making one body of us all through Jesus. God doesn't change, but I believe He does deal with different things in different ways, depending on His purpose.
I believe it all led to the cross, and for whatever His reasons were, He veiled most of them from being able to see the Messiah. A remnant only saw. Paul said "Israel" was blind yet today, still unable to see the Messiah. They are still expecting Him, when He has already come. One day that veil will be lifted, as "all Israel will be saved".
I don't know why God did it this way. Why they're not allowed to see Him - even that He said He spoke in parables so they couldn't understand. Yet He wept over them that they rejected Him. One of the saddest to me of all scriptures; "Oh Jerusalem..I would have taken you under my wings.."
I don't have the wisdom/insight/revelation to fully understand or explain why it's so hidden and directed the way it is. God has a plan and purpose.
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. God will be All in All. In the meantime, "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith..He who has begun a good work in you will complete it".
For me, it is seeing the difference between:
Ruled "by" Law
OR
Rule "with" Grace
That:
With the nature of man, having power "over" another ruling "with" the condemnation of sin (age of law), if man wants to rule "over" others with law, then God will rule "over" them "with" law
WHEREAS
With the nature of God, having power "with" another ruling "with" the forgiveness of sin (age of grace), if man wants to rule "with" others "with" grace, then God will rule "with" them "with" grace
If people choose to be ruled over by law, God will accommodate through the agency of men
BUT
If people choose to rule with grace, God will accommodate through the agency of His Holy Spirit
I set before you life and death:
Life through Grace
OR
Death through Law
But this is just my opinion in how I see it.
Good stuff all !
I love it that you seen this GIL , amen it is JESUS WORD OF LIFE coming to life in you that seed planted
I sure recall my aha! moment when reading this also
Many times it seems we cannot help ourselves , for me that is the dead works ..
of trying to save ourselves to me is like covering our own nakedness with fig leaves ...
not the leaves of the tree of Life to heal nations , living works , the Christ in you is a direct purpose of Gods will being done .
I think when Christ comes it is a special anointing to see the light , and hear His voice , not some vision of Jesus exactly
But more of revelation of seeing something you never saw before . and hearing and being connected to something so much more meaningful in purpose
The day to day is harder to deal with , for me anyways and we begin to see though all this strange getting and giving for reasons that seem pointless and temporary .
labouring in the love being seen and shown and treasured , our focus changes big time .
looking for that connection that makes us all the same and not so different from one another ...
I will never forget my sisters saying weeks before she died of how we are all connected to Jesus Christ sis!!! it is just many do not know it and need to be told that they are too .
that was so profound for me
when I see Jesus come in a cloud , it is someone with a powerful witness to speak out what revelation they are receiving though the spirit of prophecy or the same message of Jesus christ , it is unity , NOT division or separation
the law feeds on broken boundaries
Love holds no boundaries but feeds the poor and broken and maimed from the law .
to me forgiveness is the acceptance of anyone whom is suffering , Jesus Christ cross is proving that summary in my heart
they are suffering for many reasons and divisions ,
When I read Jesus laid down His life and was only to take it back up again , it totally changed my own perspective .
It totally threw away the human element . our poor and beggarly carnal thinking was out the window .
no Jews killed Jesus , nor did we , he died for us yes but this also was GODS desire or will that NONE should perish but come to Life , but that WAS His whole purpose for being sent to OPENLY EXPOSE SIN !!error in our very flawed thinking !
I have found that just being reasonable is very rewarding , we all as humans or even animals fight against what we do not understand tooth and nail even .
It is hard to explain , but we have a dog and puppy really whom is 18 months old and Sammy or Samson , tries to express him self with being overly energetic and overbearing forcing his self upon you and when you reject him , it hurts his feelings and he actually gets worse lol , he will muddy you up all over and almost push you down as overly friendly
He is golden bay retriever and mix of another breed , his father we have no idea what he is just a big ol white dog lol
He than wants to wander off and get into things that are actually dangerous to him . just like a child and can be too much stimulation , so we find ourselves trying to figure out a way to keep him safe without what seems like punishing him !!
We are still trying and not giving up and hoping he realizes it is for his own good that we keep him tied up and one day can be set free when he gets it that , this is his home is here with us , even though he cannot see us 100 % of the time and many acres to roam and the highway is off limits to him and we turn him loose on occasions when we can supervise his goings and not letting him run off and get into trouble or killed , till he comes of age to get that .
I see Jesus doing us the same way , we can experience things better when we can handle them with some age and ability to understand our surroundings that keep us from harm
the boundaries of the law are for love , but when the love is realized there are no boundaries
love to all :HeartThrob:
The practicers of Judaism don't get Jesus because he didn't fit their expectations. They have a much more political view or expectation of a Messiah - that they are going to come and take over the kingdom of this world, by intellectual force, which is the realm of mankind's pride. But Christ, and the Kingdom of God, is a spiritually discerned reality.
People have to go through the fire for whatever lie / doctrine they conjure up and project onto Abba, especially if He is not that, and is not going to manifest Himself in that way. The Christian religion is not short of manmade doctrines - some adopted from Judaism; deduced to cajole people into conformity and propping up hierarchy and agreement with a spirit of fear. These are their own lies and why the church age is passing away. God is exposing it, and doing a new thing. They shall all know me.
I've heard it said (and I'm sure you have, too) that the OT is Jesus concealed and the NT is Jesus revealed. I don't think that the word "concealed" is meant to convey that He is intentionally hidden from the reader, but rather (at least as I see this) that in the OT Christ is put forth in symbols and stories and in song as well. In the NT He is plainly revealed in the flesh.
For most of my life I read the OT as an historical document (and of course that is an aspect of it) but I didn't take into account the differing meanings of "history" in ancient days, when histories were heroic and legendary and meant to convey an epic story with grand symbols and heroes of mythic proportions. Today we put down (sometimes made-up) numbers, dates, places, events and purported motivations and we call this truth. It really isn't. It is, at best, our honest but limited understanding of things that have happened. The OT paints a picture of Christ, but it is important to understand the highly symbolic nature of this collection of writings. I'll offer the Joshua wars as an example:
It was not until the Reformation that the church began to teach a literal understanding of Joshua's wars. We are very married to the idea that these were literal wars in which the Hebrew people committed horrible atrocities against a native population not that much more sinful than they were themselves. We go to great lengths to craft apologetics for the exoneration of our God, who supposedly ordered the extinction of the Caanonites. Yet the earlier church did not see the Joshua wars in this way at all. They saw a spiritual story about conquering sin in the life of the individual and in the community of faith.
I had a dream about this once long, long ago when I was a young woman. Some friends and I were visiting a popular spring in FL with our children. I was resting in a hammock and noticed tiny snakes on the hammock and on the ground. I'm not afraid of snakes—I thought they were cute. All the same it occurred to me that we should probably do something about the situation. They were small. In the world of my dream it would have been tedious but not difficult to gather them up and dispose of them. I decided it wasn't a big deal. I soon fell asleep in the hammock. When I woke the snakes had grown into huge lolling, unclean things covering the ground and the hammock. I knew my dream was about stopping sin while it was small and not allowing it to become a serious problem, and that I had failed to listen to my heart. The account of the Joshua wars occurred to me, but I felt heretical just thinking that way. I was very invested in the literal interpretation of scripture.
When we see the stories of the incomplete conquest of Cana as a literal history, we are secretly horrified but we squash our initial reaction as being disloyal to our God. Our God who is LOVE. We tell ourselves stories to mitigate the discomfort that we, as true children of our Father, feel on hearing or reading this account which we have (many of us) been taught to interpret as a literal history of a genocide (albeit against evil people and their evil infants, grandmas and livestock) carried out on the orders and in the strength of our loving God. We refuse to believe that this could be the story of a spiritual battle of the Hebrew nation and by proxy of us all in the conquest of sin in our lives—how we cannot win on our own and cannot win if we will not reject keeping the spoils of sin or the temptation of protecting our "more innocent" pet sins.
This is the way I see the OT. There is, of course MUCH that I do not understand and I fully acknowledge my fallibility, my fragile human perception and my tendency to error. This does, however, seem to me to have truth in it. We live in a society descended from the "age of reason," but even our forebears who gave us this "age of reason" understood myth and symbolism and ancient literature and its interpretation far better than we do today. The Bible is a book written for people better educated than most of us have been. (Not really our fault, but lamentable all the same). The Old Testament in particular is not always intended to be interpreted literally.
This is (imho) what is meant by the OT being full of types and shadows of Christ. We see Him delightfully hid (for us to find) in the OT. In the NT we see Him revealed. Even in the NT though, there is a LOT of symbolism. I've heard it said that we should pick the literal interpretation of scripture if at all possible. Really? Why? Shouldn't we rather labor to understand the scripture as God means it to be understood? We have the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. We should trust and listen. Sure we'll get it wrong, and often, but it is God, working in us to conform us to the image of His Son. He will not fail.
Really great post, Cindy!
I agree. Lovely post by Cindy.
There is a 'hidden in plain sight' nature to the perception management of the people. Humans are programmable and to a degree, individually and collectively, believe what they are told, hence the need to weigh and test everything.
General Wesley Clark publicly spoke of the plot to overthrow 7 countries in 5 years following 9/11. This is the same number of nations that comprised Canaan, that the Israelites allegedly routed. Coincidence?; not for me.
Laurent Guyenot, in From Yahweh to Zion, speaks of the Israelites 'assimilating' with the Canaanites, rather than wholesale slaughter. He also speaks of the similarity between El and Yahweh - the premise of the book is that Yahweh was a tribal god, who came out of a polytheistic tradition, and not the Universal Abba.
It is always worth looking deeper, and higher too.
The reality of what is hidden in plain sight is darker than what most want to believe, but having that extra depth of perception adds more meaning to not being unaware of the enemies schemes.
Just more challenges with respect to how we walk our talk, shining the light and loving people.
I loved your post Cindy!
I can see the dream as sins or to sin is feeding the desires of ones heart for power or lording over others .
but also using our own wisdom , snakes always applies some kind of ''seeing '' things as always the wise guy mentality .
ophis Strongs's #3789: ophis - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools
Strong's #3789: ophis (pronounced of'-is). probably from 3700 (through the idea of sharpness of vision); a snake, figuratively, (as a type of sly cunning) an artful .
For me the natures of the beast mentality is always applied on the type of beast that is being expressed , a lamb or sheep verses a lion or cub .
there is always a nurturing effect in those whom see baby anything as innocent , because they are so dependant on others to survive
the bible states be eaten by wild beasts can also mean unruly men to me . satan is called an old red dragon in Rev but a serpent on a tree in Genesis
I do see it as the carnal mind more so as that serpent on the tree , mindful of earthly things and the futility of this temporary state of being .
the days of our flesh are proven a weakness by GODS WORD Matt 26 The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." ... Stay awake and pray that you won't be tested.
being tested seems to be the curse from remaining indifferent , the blessing is keeping yourself alert to Gods light and revelation and using it for good perhaps ?
and the new life in Christ that is the mind of Christ as being ''anointed '' by the Holy Spirit for Gods purpose learning of Him and doing His desire .
God bless and keep you all .
Thanks, guys!
Quote from: FatBird on January 24, 2020, 03:35:37 PM
And everyone is in him in the sense that God has put everything under his feet (Ephesians 1:22) and everything was made in him, but I think the bible distinguishes between 'sealed with the holy spirit' and not as yet sealed.
...i LOVE that! :banana:
Quote
Having said all of that I dont get this "You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I tell you, don't resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. Matthew 5:38-39
Jesus seemed to distinguish between the two?
To me this is like a summary of the whole (?) question of the harsh sounding of the Old Testament. I tend figure both prophecy and the Old Testament, has to speak even to depraved despot.. But at maturity we know "God is love" and his wrath is consequences.
How can God possibly create and have genuinely able to think and reason beings, AND, keep paradise/perfection intact?
And how long would it take for "all" to become fully convinced as to good and evil? Completely understanding in all things and issues the difference. And the outcomes of each and it all, if He didn't let things actually play out, and run its course?
I think God is the life force, the spark and Spirit of life itself. And He "is perfect" (Mt.5:48). So I think imperfection ("missing the mark" - hamartia, translated sin) is not only the opposite Life, but it is very much a bottomless pit of dark and evil potential. Obviously not what God, who is love, would want. But what are His options? Fully program us from the get go? How would that work? And is that what He's creating?
Also, as to teaching "all" - will all be fully convinced if some of the worst of the worst is not allowed to play out and run its course? This is what I think is meant by "the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever and ever " - in this case I take it to be actually forever! As the memory of this all important, foundational lesson will never, ever (thankfully!) be forgotten. Thoroughly proven. Like two ways - with God - life. Or without God, the Way of disobedience/imperfection which can only ever result in death - in not being. "Perishing" as the Word says.
How does a bully, for instance finally get it, that slapping someone in the face hurts - physically, mentally and emotionally? By HIS being slapped in the face..
As to the stonings, the very next thing the
victims of stoning will know (imo) shall be resurrection! Not a languishing in a hell or in a centuries long holding tank somewhere.. And I think they will experience upon Judgment 'Day'/age(!) each in their own time, repentance, reconciliation and renewal/regeneration, just as we are now. After all "a person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven" - John 3:27. So WHY? should their reconciliation be any more harsh than ours chosen to find it today / "in what is called today" as opposed to during "the judgment", the one the Lord talked about.. I believe there is even during "today" plenty of weeping, gnashing of teeth and outer darkness.
Also, the same things are still disapproved by God. Ultimately life hAs to be "perfect"! And that's very good news!!! And tiny Israel, part of their chosen role (in this, God's living Truth proving documentary?) was to be the "swaddling cloths" for the Lord and His first (shorter in scope) advent, instead of His coming in the midst of tree worshippers or something (may He bless all tree worshippers!:)
Imperfection - as opposed to Perfection/God/Life can only ever be troubles (tribulation), ruin (apocalypse), and ultimately death (not being, lack of life, "perishing"). If God was constantly preventing evil.. where would He draw the lines in His intervention? Of course He HAS intervened on the behalf of "all - every, all, the whole" and also at crucial times to cut back "every thought" thus action "was ONLY evil" which occurred preflood as we know.. And also concerning the burning alive of children and babies as offering to 'the gods'.. As to His being judged over wanting those nations annihilated, usually w/o the context, it's not merciful to let such continue. They would beat drums to drown out the screams!! :faint: (Unbelievable. Even Israel did, and that's why THE (valley) Gehenna where Israel practiced it, became a dump where even the bodies of vile criminals were burned so the fires were kept burning and the worms didn't die away. And is why it's also called valley of Tophet (drums).. And is where - or is one of 3 connected valleys where fiery/lof? Armaggeddon will be fought.
NowI've just gone on and on haven't I? :laughing7: I didn't intend to!
:Peace2:
I really like your whole comment Marie Glen. I agree that we are here to learn, but see things from more of a fatalist perspective.
'See, I am setting before you to-day a blessing and a reviling: 27 the blessing, when ye hearken unto the commands of Jehovah your God, which I am commanding you to-day; 28 and the reviling, if ye do not hearken unto the commands of Jehovah your God, and have turned aside out of the way which I am commanding you to-day, to go after other gods which ye have not known. (Deuteronomy 11:26-28) Law of Moses
&
If you do what is right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."(Genesis 4:7) Law of flesh
I think this is an eye for an eye.
IMO