Before I found the victorious gospel I always believed in Satan and Hell etc, however questions I had even before I became a Christian in my teen years still keep arising in my mind. Questions like.....
1) If Heaven was perfect, how could sin even exist in such a place, ie why did Satan want to be greater than God when clearly he is not capable for example of creating anything?
2) Why would an all knowing God create an angel that would be against his will? The church has taught me over the years that the devil is just a menace and a liar and if you didn't believe in the devil it was his way of deceiving you by telling you lies that he doesn't exist and you would end up in Hell!!
3) Why would God forever show no mercy of forgiveness to Satan, surely the devil would show remorse as even he doesn't want to burned eternally forever and ever?!!!
What are your thoughts on the devil and spiritual warfare?
Many scriptures refer to the devil.
Some examples;
Job points out the devil going into the heavens and actually discussing with the Father about Job.
Then there are some of these scripture which directly involve Christ, not to mention those that point out Him freeing people from demons.
John 8;44 " You belong to your father the devil, and your will is to carry out the desires of your father. He was a murderer from
the beginning and never did stand in the truth."
1 John 3;8 " The one who continues to sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose- that He might destroy the works of the devil."
Matt 4 Has Jesus tempted by the devil whilst in the wilderness.
John 13;27 " After Judas had taken the morsel satan entered into him."
Jesus differentiates between the kingdom of this age and the kingdom to come.
John 17;16 " they do not belong to this world just as I do not belong to this world."
Eph 6;12 " For our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world rulers
of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
Jude 9 " But when Michael the archangel, in debate with the devil, was arguing about the body o Moses, he did not presume to
condemn him for blasphemy, but said, ' the Lord rebuke you."
1 Peter 5;8 " Be sober-minded. Be alert. Your enemy, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour."
James 4;7 " Submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you."
Col 1;3 " He has rescued us out of the tyranny of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of His beloved Son."
1 Tim 4;1 " Now the Spirit clearly say that in the last times some of the faith will follow, and be devoted to, deceitful spirits
and the teachings of demons."
These all could be oppressive, serve as warnings about the spiritual. But Christ came to be made a little lower than angels/spirits so that then He would be risen over them, and set us into that position of authority as His beloved.
Heb 2;7 " You made Him a little lower than angels for a while; you crowned Him with glory and honour.
vs 9 'But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than angels for a little while, so that by the grace of God He might taste death
for everyone, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honour."
Then add in the cleansing/purification of heavens as well.
Heb 9;23,24 " Thus it was necessary that the earthly copies of the heavenly realities be purified by these rites, but the heavenly
realities with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands that was a mere copy
of the true one, BUT INTO HEAVEN ITSELF, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."
In the future to come we will be ruling over angels; from a secure basis and training in Christ.
1 Cor 6;3 " Do you not know that we will judge angels, not to mention everyday affairs?"
So much to learn. Such a great patient teacher. So much to strip away of the old nature- hence being literally transformed by the renewing of our minds/approach to life.
Ephesians 6:
...11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand....
I see, Ross, you beat me to this verse, but, this is what I believe.
Goodness cannot be chosen, unless there is an arena for evil to show itself. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, was where Eve picked the apple from. She disobeyed and she then knew the difference, but it was at a very high price. And, all of us, have tasted from that tree, in the spiritual sense. We must seek the light, not the darkness.....we cannot be lukewarm.
The devil knew he could not rule Heaven, but I guess he also knew that he did not want to be ruled by God.
We don't want to give God control over our lives, frequently, but, we all know we don't have the control over them.
As Mr. Spock, on Star Trek used to say, "It is not logical, but it is so." :Chinscratch:
And, I do believe the devil will be saved....the final demonstrated mercy of God's grace, before the Body of Christ is totally united.
He, too, is God's creation, after all.
Notice in Ross's Bible quotes, under 1John 3:8.....that He might destroy the works of the devil. It could have said to destroy the devil.
Revelations 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
D.
As part of my research into Hell, whether it existed or not, I also looked at the Devil/Satan/Lucifer and found that the KJV translators ID'd things as Satan which were easily proved to be otherwise. The one that comes most to mind is the confusion of the King of Tyre with Satan. No, it's just the King of Tyre. I was surprised to find that the Bible, even the KJV, makes NO connection between Satan and Hell. He shows up in Heaven a couple of times, to report that he has been running around on the earth, and that is where we find him most of the time. Lastly, he is tossed into the Lake of Fire.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 28, 2017, 08:28:08 AM
As part of my research into Hell, whether it existed or not, I also looked at the Devil/Satan/Lucifer and found that the KJV translators ID'd things as Satan which were easily proved to be otherwise. The one that comes most to mind is the confusion of the King of Tyre with Satan. No, it's just the King of Tyre. I was surprised to find that the Bible, even the KJV, makes NO connection between Satan and Hell. He shows up in Heaven a couple of times, to report that he has been running around on the earth, and that is where we find him most of the time. Lastly, he is tossed into the Lake of Fire.
:goodpost: :thanks:
Mostly.. I don't know as it matters much one way or the other. The thing which impresses me is the whole nonbiblical and pagan idea of mankind and individuals having to transcend, and ascend, what's called apotheosis.. from Babel Tower to the Osiris myth of Egypt to.. :dunno: and to the gnostics of early church days to new age of today.. That old "I will".."ascend above the stars".. which is surely a type of all.. and we are all learning we cannot all be our own little 'god' :laughing7: ... :Chinscratch: disaster.. (as is being proven) ..there can be only one Almighty, all ruling one..
But.. I suppose I come down on the side of thinking that verse "I will ascend above God's throne" as referring to the original adversary, and I won't go into all the reasons why I believe it to be a literal fallen angel (left first/original place) and deceived Adam and Eve in the garden, "that old serpent, called satan/adversary and the devil/slanderer" (diabolos) .."leading the world astray".. But also a type, which kings, especially are so prone to falling into..
Almost anything found in the Bible can be spiritualized, and can be used to prove almost any theology. I know because I've been there and done that. We need to be careful that all our search for knowledge doesn't become an end in itself. I doubt that we will ever, in this lifetime, find satisfying answers to all our questions. John chapter 11 is most valuable to Christians because it shows Our PURPOSE, or why are we here. We know that the Bible says our life is but a vapor, but even though life is short it does have purpose.
To answer this question we must first learn that we were created for purpose. That purpose is to glorify Christ with our life. We are to let the world see what Christ has done for us. The Bible even declares that the death of a Christian glorifies Christ. Lazarus is one example of this. John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. The Lord's friend, Lazarus, had died, but Christ spoke as though there was no difference between sleeping and death. When Christ says to awaken there is no force in heaven or earth that can keep us from responding. What we need to note about Lazarus was that he glorified the Lord during his life, but he also glorified Jesus in his death.
It seems to me that Jesus met people at their own level of spiritual knowledge and then guided them to greater understanding. Each person that He spoke with, as recorded in the Bible, was met on an individual basis based on their own need.
God made man that he might live to His glory, and gave him a law to walk by; and if, when he does any thing that tends not to glorify God, he contracts a debt with Divine Justice, how much more is he debtor when he breaks the law by actual transgression! Jesus said simply, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." The problem is not that we do not wish to glorify God, but that we do not know and follow His commandments.
It seems that many of the posts that I have read question how God will handle our sin debt. Most Christians concern themselves with the prospect of Hell, when we know that the word Hell isn't even found in the Word of God. However, it also seems that we all understand that something must be done with our sin and our sin nature. My personal belief is that Jesus Christ did everything necessary to redeem mankind, and to take upon Himself the penalty for all mankind's sin.
That should make all of us willing to serve the Lord and His Kingdom. Whatever the future holds is something that we cannot change. We simply must trust that God is Good and all that He does is and will be GOOD!
yeah, i think we need to not necessarily automatically throw out everything the church teaches, counting anything remotely connected to it as false (such as satan for example) but rather see what the scriptures TRULY say about it.
Quote from: lduebel on February 28, 2017, 09:36:50 PM
My personal belief is that Jesus Christ did everything necessary to redeem mankind, and to take upon Himself the penalty for all mankind's sin.
:thumbsup: :banana:
Quote from: lduebel on February 28, 2017, 09:36:50 PM
Whatever the future holds is something that we cannot change. We simply must trust that God is Good and all that He does is and will be GOOD!
:thumbsup:
We come with boldness before a loving God thanks to our one mediator and saviour- Christ;
Because of His work we are children of a living God; Nothing can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord- ergo nothing Satan does can change that position, I.M.O he tries to distract us and keep us so busy we get distracted from the simplicity of the gospel; plus that is his work since he is the current ruler of this age; just not any of the ones to come- interesting how Paul says he handed over a couple of dudes to satan for correction;
1 Tim 1;20 " Among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan so that they might be taught not to
blaspheme."
Positive outlook on future thanks to Christ's work and accomplishments.
Whenever I am trying to determine whether a thing is true or not, I consider both(hypothetically) and think about how things would be different if it is true vs if it is not true. In this case, I am not sure what difference it makes from a "practical" standpoint. We certainly should not live in fear of the devil either way but we certainly have an enemy(or enemies) in either case. In my experience with addiction it certainly seems like there was a personal being trying to get me to fail. It does seem strange that some devil/demons would spend his/their time trying to get us to behave badly and screw up but I am certainly open-minded to the possibility(mainly because of my experiences). Either a devil exists or I am my own devil. I think the same could be said for just about everyone. In some cases when I would debate doing something foolish with myself on an intellectual level I would always lose with that enemy(whether that enemy was me or something else) so I had to learn not to debate. In short, either believe or pretend there is a person messing with your head, wanting to trick you into doing something foolish, conspiring against you, etc and don't trust the voices :winkgrin: lol
To overcome that which can be feared is to destroy that which the mind itself has created
Quote from: jabcat on February 28, 2017, 10:26:56 PM
yeah, i think we need to not necessarily automatically throw out everything the church teaches, counting anything remotely connected to it as false (such as satan for example) but rather see what the scriptures TRULY say about it.
Amen! :iagree: ...always, to me, the answer is
"see what the scriptures TRULY say about it"Quote from: lduebel on February 28, 2017, 09:36:50 PM
Almost anything found in the Bible can be spiritualized, and can be used to prove almost any theology.
:laughing7: I believe that to be very true.. and what a temptation! (speak of the devil!) as "knowledge" can "puff up" (inflate the ego) some 'new revelation' can make one feel 'important'.. It's very subtle! Even our quest for truth, and only truth.. can be used against us! (What was included in that first beguilement?
(spellcheck thought perhaps I meant bedevilment) :laughing7:
Included in the first beguilement was "you will be like God.." which is
SO trace-able in the pagan and also gnostic beliefs of apotheosis/ascension. (We can even find it in the church! Instead of crowns/wreaths of victory, some these strange days, appear to think they will wear crowns of kingship ("be like God")
(G1238 kingly diadem, of Rev 19:12-Jesus & 13:1 the beast/the 'big' beast of verses 1-10; the rest of the "crowns" are G4735 garland, wreath of victory - http://studybible.info/strongs/G4735, badge of honor, exalted rank,but not "king") "..He alone will have the preeminence.."If there is no spiritual, fallen angel / adversary -- or if there is, our own biggest enemy is our self! We are each one, our own worst enemy! If the adversary beguiles, it is by using our very self.. and is in our own 'voice', not a gravelly goat like voice, but our very own.. passing as our own thought - or is our own thought. Either way, knowing His Word will be our defense against all such beguiling.
"The strongman" Jesus said, has to be bound. I would think this would be true of the adversary, both spiritual and self!
Any body of believers, church or even forum, if someone comes in looking for truth, I think it's very much best if they can find it there. The world is
full of men's (male and female :laughing7: ) ideas about this and that.. And it's not men's ideas about the bible that saves, but the truths of the bible.
Like brother DanielB said "
don't trust the voices :winkgrin: lol"
It's so unfortunate some (Christian) Universalist groups lost their way! Likely they threw out the baby with the bathwater! (Imo)
When they no longer believed in a hell.. they let loose of all the bible! What a misunderstanding! And if they don't have The Word, what does it get replaced with?? The 'lofty' thoughts of man. :eek: [God save us from the lofty thoughts of humans!] Then when someone comes into the church, what do they hear? Babble. ("If they speak in a strange tongue who will be able to hear?")
I'm sure satan exists, but it's someone with horns and hooves.
That BTW at least hints to the pagancy of that belief.
http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Pan.html
I believe Satan is real because there is good and evil, negative and positive in all things. God is good, stands to reason there is a spirit named Satan who is evil.
CHB
I truly believe giving the enemy, the opponent, a proper name and personalizing is a weakness. The devil, the adversary, and evil is real we fight a spiritual war fare in the heavens. My :2c:
I rely on the testimony of the scriptures.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 10, 2017, 11:00:10 PM
I rely on the testimony of the scriptures.
Or the translators, just saying Ill stay out of it. :2c: :Peace2:
Translation is definitely an important issure regarding the question at hand :Peace2:
Quote from: CHB on March 07, 2017, 05:53:20 PM
I believe Satan is real because there is good and evil, negative and positive in all things. God is good, stands to reason there is a spirit named Satan who is evil.
CHB
OTOH, I found very early in my research on Hell, in fact, in Genesis 1:1, that God made the heavens and the earth. He didn't claim to have made Hell, so I realized that all that is, is a hierarchy, not a dualistic push-and-shove between God and Satan, with the world and its people as a prey between them. Yes, I know Jesus spoke of Satan's kingdom, but I believe it is just a temporary aberration.
:2c: no...but hell being the grave...He addressed it as such...that Adams body...made of dust would return unto dust....the nations are but dust on the scales....the corrupt
image...bound in dust...that the serpent eats...under law and condemnation because of sin entering flesh...can not inherit.bound in disobedience.
a kingdom prepared for the blessed that flesh and blood can not inherit...and a LOF prepared for adversarial spirits that they may not rise up and rules over the stars of heaven...
satan bound.....and satan released to go forth...as the beast that was,is not,yet is....thrown into the LOF.........false prophet beast,satan....all powers/principalities that rise up
to rule over mankind in the flesh/and covets the stars[for what is bound on earth is bound in heaven...and what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven.] men err in spirit
not being able to discern[blind] the lie from truth. sin is a demon[evil adversarial spirit] that desires to rule over you...but you must rule over it[subject it unto Christ's spirit]
Jesus death portrayed this spirit entering and putting to death the Christ..through Judas ...as Judas portrayed the son of perdition.[satan entered]..the enmity was exhibited openly
in that scene....and the seed of the woman's victory over all the power of the enemy/adversary was also portrayed. authority to tread on scorpions and serpents and over all the power
of the enemy[adversarial spirit]......the temptor/accuser/deceiver/liar/man-killer/slanderer of God........is judged. the wicked one will not learn righteousness in the upright land...even if
he is shown favour.
law of kinds....two seeds...that bring forth according to their nature...a leopard can not change it's spots. Jesus preached to these spirits that they must be born again from above to
rise back up unto heaven...but they did not enter in in faith...but hindered the men that would have entered through using the bodies of the Pharisee's and sadducees[offspring of viper
spirits possessing them].. thus,Jesus addressed the men as blind guides/leaders...due to being blinded by the prince of this world.
..note the enmity between Michael and satan over the body of Moses....note the rebuke of the Lord unto those who are assigned to the LOF prepared for satan and his angels/messengers
man dies once...the flesh that bore the image of the corrupt..when sin entered flesh..the twice dead is the serpents seed/spirit..for it is not of God or made in His image..and has no life in it
not being of the immortal incorruptible spirit of God..born from above. Those born of the Hoy spirit can not sin..so how is it satan the adversary is God's son? he is not..but has been as a servant
a tool..that does not remain in God's household...nor inherit...and as such...in the harvest shall be bound in bundles and burned in the LOF. man's spirit....wheat that God sowed in the earth
shall be gathered into God's storehouse in heaven.
so,no...satan is NOT_REAL.. an imitation spirit sowed of the adversary/tare/corrupt....... but.....man's spirit/the sheep of His flock IS-REAL...genuine seed of GOD...sowed in the field of the earth
and shall bear the incorruptible image. :2c:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 11, 2017, 12:22:27 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 07, 2017, 05:53:20 PM
I believe Satan is real because there is good and evil, negative and positive in all things. God is good, stands to reason there is a spirit named Satan who is evil.
CHB
I don't believe there is a push and shove between God and Satan either I believe God created Satan to do exactly what he is doing. Satan is part of the evil that God is using to fulfill his purpose.
CHB
OTOH, I found very early in my research on Hell, in fact, in Genesis 1:1, that God made the heavens and the earth. He didn't claim to have made Hell, so I realized that all that is, is a hierarchy, not a dualistic push-and-shove between God and Satan, with the world and its people as a prey between them. Yes, I know Jesus spoke of Satan's kingdom, but I believe it is just a temporary aberration.
Satan's kingdom is temporary. Every kingdom is temporary but the kingdom of God, which is the kingdom of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, in this age, these kingdoms are real. They do exist. But God causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will, and always has, so ultimately everything serves His purpose and plan.
I think sometimes we think God is only saving and shaping individuals out of the world as it is. I think God is dealing with mankind as a whole, a body, so to speak, even as we are the body of Christ now, being built into a tabernacle of God in the spirit- it stands to reason that when God is "all in all" all will be one, "that they may be one even as you and I are one". So God is working with individuals and families and cities and nations, and mankind as one. The chaos comes from not recognizing this, "Love your neighbor as yourself". "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."
The tabernacle in the spirit we are becoming is the "house of prayer for all people". This was always God's desire and plan, "I will walk among them and live among them and I will be their God and they will be my people."
Satan is the adversary and the assayer of God. "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" says the angel to Satan as he accuses Joshua before the altar. So also he accuses us before the altar, and where we triumph is when we hear and receive, "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" and our dirty clothes are taken off and clean linen robes are given us and a clean covering for our head. The service we are called into is the service Satan refused, the service of those who are blind, lame and in prison.
. 17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
Don't know why my post turned out the way it did? It looks confusing.
Here was my answer to Lazarus Short.
I don't believe there is a push and shove between God and Satan either I believe God created Satan to do exactly what he is doing. Satan is part of the evil that God is using to fulfill his purpose.
CHB