YLT. Ezekiel 28:12-15 say Lucifier was created perfect. If he was how was pride then found in him?
HI Caffus , the name Lucifer , means light bringer its latin brilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon ( Isaiah 14:12 ) to denote his glory.
and was used in the Bible back in the day when it was a misrepresentation , it was always the King of Tyre
Ezekiel 28 (NIV)
The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a mere mortal and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
Are you wiser than Daniel?
Is no secret hidden from you?
By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.
By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.
"'Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,
I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.
They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.
Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a mortal, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.
You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.'"
The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"'You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.'"
The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, set your face against Sidon; prophesy against her and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"'I am against you, Sidon,
and among you I will display my glory.
You will know that I am the Lord,
when I inflict punishment on you
and within you am proved to be holy.
I will send a plague upon you
and make blood flow in your streets.
The slain will fall within you,
with the sword against you on every side.
Then you will know that I am the Lord.
"'No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.
"'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.'"
It is just a carnal man as a ruler whom was made an example in my opinon Caffus
Blessings , may others share more
Yes...Thank you for your correction. YLV does not say Lucifer. Im being challenged by ET believers...as Im sure we all are at times. But my faith is sealed in Him. But Im still a baby to UR and have much to learn and study so I can give proper answers. Also....I believe God is Sovereign..but then how are we blamed or held accountable for our sins? And if we are not..there would be no need for forgiveness or mercy?
Quote from: Caffus on June 10, 2015, 07:57:31 PM
YLT. Ezekiel 28:12-15 say Lucifier was created perfect. If he was how was pride then found in him?
Quote from: Caffus on June 10, 2015, 09:11:56 PM
Yes...Thank you for your correction. YLV does not say Lucifer. Im being challenged by ET believers...as Im sure we all are at times. But my faith is sealed in Him. But Im still a baby to UR and have much to learn and study so I can give proper answers. Also....I believe God is Sovereign..but then how are we blamed or held accountable for our sins? And if we are not..there would be no need for forgiveness or mercy?
Hi Caffus,
I did a study on this a while back. My conclusion was that the word perfect does not mean the same thing in our minds that it did when the scripture was written, and that Lucifer is not the devil or satan.........neither of those deserve capitalization.
There is a lot on it on the internet if you don't mind looking through varying opinion on the subject. I think that there is a good article on it at:
https://www.concordant.org/expositions/spirit-world-satan-messengers-demons/the-fall-of-satan/
Quote from: Caffus on June 10, 2015, 07:57:31 PM
YLT. Ezekiel 28:12-15 say Lucifier was created perfect. If he was how was pride then found in him?
God created evil. "Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) "I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." (Ecclesiastes 1:13) God gives Satan power to try us (Job 1:6-12, 2:1-7), but Satan will eventually lose that power (1 Corinthians 15:24). "Satan," Hebrew for "Adversary," also known as "the dragon," "the ancient serpent," and "the Slanderer," is head of the forces of evil. Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul." "Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew), meaning "Destroyer," is the messenger of the abyss. Satan was a sinner from the beginning, but here are a few verses relevant to the so called "fall of Satan" that is not in the scriptures. Ezekiel refers to the king of Tyre not Satan (Ezekiel 28:15). The king of Tyre is a man, and Satan is not a man (Ezekiel 28:2,9). Isaiah refers to the King of Babylon in the future day of Israel's restoration not Satan's fall in the past (Isaiah 14:3-20). Then Satan will have been cast out of heaven (Revelation 12:9). The King of Babylon is a man (Isaiah 14:16), and Satan is not a man. "Lucifer" is used once in the King James Version as a mistranslation of the Hebrew for "howl" (Isaiah 14:12). The same exact Hebrew word is used in (Zechariah 11:2). Variations of the word are in (Isaiah 13:6; 14:31; 15:2,3; 16:7; 23:1,6,14; 52:5; 65:14). Luke refers to Satan's action in response to the casting out of demons in Christ's name not the so called "fall of Satan" (Luke 10:18). "From the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (1 John 3:8) "He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44) Satan's most effective deception is the church using corrupt translation of scripture and tradition of man to invalidate the word of God. "You invalidate the word of God because of your tradition." (Matthew 15:6) "For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light. It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness -- whose consummation shall be according to their acts." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15) The good news is evil will eventually be nullified at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24,28).
See the attachment for a comparison of accurate and inaccurate translations in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer.
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Thank you, that's a lot info! :dsunny: Yes I know God created evil for a final good purpose. I didn't know that though until I started questioning the hell doctrine.
Revisited this
Here is what I had to say about the king of Tyre in my book:
Now here we are at Chapter 28, and I know that a lot of people insist that the subject of the chapter, the prince of Tyre is actually Satan. No, sorry, for these reasons:
The previous two chapters had been all about the literal city of Tyre and the bad fate God had in store for it. Chapter 28 is about the prince of the same literal city, and there is no subject break until toward the end of that chapter.
God says, ??thou art a man and not God?? (verse 2) ? but if this prince was really Satan, don?t you think God would have said so? No ? it?s a literal city, a literal prince, and a man at that.
Verse 8: ?They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die??. The previous verse speaks of terrible strangers who draw the sword against this prince, but Satan cannot be taken down with literal swords, as he is a spirit being.
Verse 13: ?Thou hast been in Eden??. This does not mean that the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden ? as ever, it?s all in the context. See 27:23: ?Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad were thy merchants.? Eden is treated as a literal country like any other literal country of the time. For more on this subject, see David Rohl?s book Legend. However, do not think that I agree with all of Rohl?s conclusions.
In view of all the above I must confess that I find 28:14, which is the crux of the whole Satan argument, to be a puzzle, but I?m not going to set one verse against the context of three chapters of text.
We have another reference to Eden in Chapter 31, which personifies Assyria as a great tree, ??so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.? (verse 9). We see Eden again, but it is more difficult to make a whole nation out to be Satan, so this gets ignored as a proof. The chapter goes on to speak of the death of the great tree of Assyria, and we have the usual words so often associated with ?hell,? such as ?delivered unto death,? ?nether parts of the earth,? ?the pit,? ?the grave? and ?the deep.? In verse 15, ?the grave? is footnoted as ?Or sheol, hell.? Then in verse 16 we do see ?hell,? but it is footnoted as ?Or sheol.? This inconsistency hides a dishonest translation and theological sleight-of-hand.