Hi All,
Went to a bible study class last night and need some help interpreting this scripture. I just felt in my heart that I was missing something.
Ephesians 1:11-12
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out evrything in conformity with the purpsoe of his will, in order that we, who were the first hope in Christ might be for the praise of his glory.
The argument was that God is so great that he determines before we exist who will be called and who won't be called. They also said he does this regardless of knowing whether we will answer the call. Why would a loving god do this? Wouldn't he want to make sure we all come to him?
I can't recall where the second scripture was, but it was in reference to god being the "potter" who will make us how he chooses. The scripture went on to say (I'm badly paraphrasing right now) that who are we to tell the potter what we think he should have created?
Does anyone find this to paint a picture of an arrogant God who is playing "Gi Joe or Barbies" with our lives? In my heart, I feel that God is so loving we can't comprehend it. But the above scriptures confuse me. My heart and head are in conflict.
I could use some help if anyone is so moved to write.
Thanks,
SeekerRuth
Ah, predestination . . . tabboo in some churches to even discuss. Others have a limited point of view. The only things that are clear, are the ones God chooses to reveal. Everything else is mere observation of the minds. So, while we may not yet see the clarity of something and have our own version of it, it's best to hold on to that version loosely . . . the time will come when God "will" clarify and it may very well be nowhere near where our version filed it.
For me, one of the big reasons why I believe the Holy Spirit chose to tell us we were chosen long before we existed, is not to intimidate us that we have no choice in our lives, but to let us know that there is a special purpose for us waiting just for us to manifest in this generation so that we could become apart of that original plan. We always tend to interpret ascending truths from a descending nature. Rather than look at the conformity of it "Well . . .this is what God decided and that's that." Look at the personal touch of it . . .God chose "me" to be here, to say this, to do that .. . he was saving this for "me".
I hope they didn't go into the "many are called, but few are chosen" thing with this because I believe that's a great disservice to what that was actually aiming at. It wasn't about predesitination. It was about being willing to go beyond ourselves to project "him" in our world. Many are called to do that, but few are chosen not because the few are better, but that there are only a few of the called that are willing to be the forerunners of Truth . .to enter into places of the kingdom beyond religious comfort zones and such . . .
God has a plan for us .. .and his will is that we fulfill the plan. If we pursue Christ, we fulfill both the will and the plan. If we don't, we fall short of his will . . .but his plan is not shaken or changed.
Is there "any" place in Scripture where God came to one of his servants, asked them to do his will, they refused and then he just went to someone else? Moses? no . . .Moses had ever excuse in the book . .but God patiently answered all of them . . .David? David definitely had his dark days . . . but God still saw him not as a weak man or one who fell a lot . .but a man after his own heart . . .Elijah . .wanted to end it all . . .chased by some Jezebel woman (yeah, that was actually the name of her) and chose to die . . but he didn't completely get his wish either.
Jonah is the famous one . .God turned him around . .Peter denied . . Jesus loved him back . . Judas turned him in . .turns out that was the plan in the first place. Sarai laughed at God's intent . . .ended up naming his intent Isaac . . .hebrew for laughter.
then there's Paul . . .knocked him flat of his donkey . . .now there's a picture of religious stubbornness if there ever was one . . .and God ended up using that so much it filled most of the New Testament.
Here's a question . . .why would we consider God's predestined plan for our lives to be a bad thing anyway?
QuoteHere's a question . . .why would we consider God's predestined plan for our lives to be a bad thing anyway?
Answer...Because what makes you or I so special that we are called but others are not? My husband does not feel this pull on his heart, but I can assure you he is a better and kinder person than I. Why wouldn't God call us all and let us decide whether we will participate with him or not?
It is clear to me when I read the bible that God sometimes pushes in the opposite direction of good and love. Look at what he did with Pharaoh in the story of Noah. Why didn't God choose to soften Pharoah's heart? Now that would have been a compassionate and beautiful story!
It is hard for me to believe in and follow a supreme being who appears to be screwing with us. Yet at the same time, I feel such a pull to God that it is almost driving me crazy!
Please forgive my bluntness, but I am struggling with this and figure it's best to be honest with where my mind is going, rather then appear to have the answers (as many church leaders do I am finding).
SeekerRuth
Quote from: Seeker on March 05, 2009, 11:12:45 PM
Hi All,
Went to a bible study class last night and need some help interpreting this scripture. I just felt in my heart that I was missing something.
Ephesians 1:11-12
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first hope in Christ might be for the praise of his glory.
The argument was that God is so great that he determines before we exist who will be called and who won't be called. They also said he does this regardless of knowing whether we will answer the call. Why would a loving god do this? Wouldn't he want to make sure we all come to him?
I can't recall where the second scripture was, but it was in reference to god being the "potter" who will make us how he chooses. The scripture went on to say (I'm badly paraphrasing right now) that who are we to tell the potter what we think he should have created?
Does anyone find this to paint a picture of an arrogant God who is playing "Gi Joe or Barbies" with our lives? In my heart, I feel that God is so loving we can't comprehend it. But the above scriptures confuse me. My heart and head are in conflict.
I could use some help if anyone is so moved to write.
Thanks,
SeekerRuth
Net Bible Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will.
Net Bible Commentary: Eph 1:11
28
tn Grk "in whom," as a continuation of the previous verse.
29
tn Grk "
we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb
κληρόω (
klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [
klēronomeō] meant
"obtain a portion by lot" ). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "
we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.
sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deu_32:8-9).
Yea, pretty wild don't you think? Now add in Acts 13:48...
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Rom 11:7 What then?
What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were
chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Col 3:12 So, as those who have been
chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord,
because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of
those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
Chosen? By Lot? :mshock:
Uses your e-sword to search for chosen, appointed, and predestine. You may not like what you find, but find comfort that God is the savior of all!
Peace sister,
Paul
Quote from: Seeker on March 06, 2009, 01:34:59 AM
QuoteHere's a question . . .why would we consider God's predestined plan for our lives to be a bad thing anyway?
Answer...Because what makes you or I so special that we are called but others are not? My husband does not feel this pull on his heart, but I can assure you he is a better and kinder person than I. Why wouldn't God call us all and let us decide whether we will participate with him or not?
It is clear to me when I read the bible that God sometimes pushes in the opposite direction of good and love. Look at what he did with Pharaoh in the story of Noah. Why didn't God choose to soften Pharoah's heart? Now that would have been a compassionate and beautiful story!
It is hard for me to believe in and follow a supreme being who appears to be screwing with us. Yet at the same time, I feel such a pull to God that it is almost driving me crazy!
Please forgive my bluntness, but I am struggling with this and figure it's best to be honest with where my mind is going, rather then appear to have the answers (as many church leaders do I am finding).
SeekerRuth
It's not that those called are "special", just set aside for a unique purpose.
But I hear ya! Trying to put God in any kind of a box is like trying to nail Jell-o to the wall.
:cloud9: God used a dream/night vision to interpret a dream/night vision He had previously given me. I'll share the last one.
I was suddenly "awake" in the Spirit, caught up into the realm of the stars, looking around in amazement. Then I saw in the Spirit, orbs of light with faces (natures) on them, descending down to earth out of the heavenly realm. To my astonishment, I could "hear" them and they were communicating about what they were going to be to each other in the natural realm, relationship wise, and some of things they were going to do to each other both good and bad, and I was hit with their joy.
They KNEW beforehand what they were going "down" for, and the grand purpose was to experience and choose the unconditional love of God as revealed through Christ Jesus. They were souls. We were lowered, NOT WILLINGLY, into corruption by He who subjected the same in hope (Christ in you, the hope of glory). Being lowered then, is as a type of death, that we might choose to WILLINGLY lay down our lives for Him (another type of death), that we might ascend with Christ back into our first estate. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 03:44:59 AM
:cloud9: God used a dream/night vision to interpret a dream/night vision He had previously given me. I'll share the last one.
I was suddenly "awake" in the Spirit, caught up into the realm of the stars, looking around in amazement. Then I saw in the Spirit, orbs of light with faces (natures) on them, descending down to earth out of the heavenly realm. To my astonishment, I could "hear" them and they were communicating about what they were going to be to each other in the natural realm, relationship wise, and some of things they were going to do to each other both good and bad, and I was hit with their joy.
They KNEW beforehand what they were going "down" for, and the grand purpose was to experience and choose the unconditional love of God as revealed through Christ Jesus. They were souls. We were lowered, NOT WILLINGLY, into corruption by He who subjected the same in hope (Christ in you, the hope of glory). Being lowered then, is as a type of death, that we might choose to WILLINGLY lay down our lives for Him (another type of death), that we might ascend with Christ back into our first estate. Blessings....
Exactly, Card! God is the Father of spirits, and our spirit (which was made by and is of God) is our true identity. Living here is a process of rediscovery of and transformation 'back into' that which God already made us to be.
Your vision reminds me of the passage about the morning stars singing together for joy beholding the creation... :cloud9:
:cloud9: Amen, Doc. I had no preconceived doctrine that fit what I saw, so that makes it all the more special, because you know YOU didn't think that. Blessings...
Quote from: Seeker on March 06, 2009, 01:34:59 AM
QuoteHere's a question . . .why would we consider God's predestined plan for our lives to be a bad thing anyway?
Answer...Because what makes you or I so special that we are called but others are not? My husband does not feel this pull on his heart, but I can assure you he is a better and kinder person than I. Why wouldn't God call us all and let us decide whether we will participate with him or not?
It is clear to me when I read the bible that God sometimes pushes in the opposite direction of good and love. Look at what he did with Pharaoh in the story of Noah. Why didn't God choose to soften Pharoah's heart? Now that would have been a compassionate and beautiful story!
It is hard for me to believe in and follow a supreme being who appears to be screwing with us. Yet at the same time, I feel such a pull to God that it is almost driving me crazy!
Please forgive my bluntness, but I am struggling with this and figure it's best to be honest with where my mind is going, rather then appear to have the answers (as many church leaders do I am finding).
SeekerRuth
For me, every person born is one that's been chosen. The fact that out of the millions of other opportunities in my mothers womb, I was the one that found my way to the egg . .. that should say something in and of itself. Many have a low self-esteem as they convince themselves they were accidents or they are not as good, smart, pretty, disciplined . .the list goes on . .but they don't realize just to be born means that there were millions of other sperm that didn't get to where you did . . .
And the choosing is of course God's order . . .he created, he is worthy to do the choosing . . .but I just don't think it's connected to the "many are called but few are chosen" aspect because for me, "that" particular passage is speaking of other things. But when it comes to all people living now, I see us all being chosen to manifest now . . .we are not misfits, accidents or imposters . . . we were planned by God . . .allbeit, perhaps not always planned by parents . .but how often does God plan for something in man and man doesn't plan for it himself?
Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 12:28:34 PM
:cloud9: Amen, Doc. I had no preconceived doctrine that fit what I saw, so that makes it all the more special, because you know YOU didn't think that. Blessings...
I really appreciate you sharing that vision with us, sis. Turns out we blessed each other. You see, that vision you had and shared was a confirmation to me of something that I'd read (about our pre-existence with God) and I was wrestling with whether to accept it, even though my spirit rejoiced when I had read it (darn carnal mind gets in the way sometimes). Then along you come, and share a direct vision of the same thing I literally just read about a few days before.... :bgdance:
Come to think of it, Origen also viewed things this way...
But it all makes sense doesn't it? We are created in His image, created by and for Him, and Jesus is the firstborn of 'many' brothers, and
He pre-existed
His incarnation, and we are (in our spirit, that comes from Him) one with Him, then... :mshock:
Bless you. And praise our wondrous God!
Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 03:11:29 PM
Quote from: Seeker on March 06, 2009, 01:34:59 AM
QuoteHere's a question . . .why would we consider God's predestined plan for our lives to be a bad thing anyway?
Answer...Because what makes you or I so special that we are called but others are not? My husband does not feel this pull on his heart, but I can assure you he is a better and kinder person than I. Why wouldn't God call us all and let us decide whether we will participate with him or not?
It is clear to me when I read the bible that God sometimes pushes in the opposite direction of good and love. Look at what he did with Pharaoh in the story of Noah. Why didn't God choose to soften Pharoah's heart? Now that would have been a compassionate and beautiful story!
It is hard for me to believe in and follow a supreme being who appears to be screwing with us. Yet at the same time, I feel such a pull to God that it is almost driving me crazy!
Please forgive my bluntness, but I am struggling with this and figure it's best to be honest with where my mind is going, rather then appear to have the answers (as many church leaders do I am finding).
SeekerRuth
For me, every person born is one that's been chosen. The fact that out of the millions of other opportunities in my mothers womb, I was the one that found my way to the egg . .. that should say something in and of itself. Many have a low self-esteem as they convince themselves they were accidents or they are not as good, smart, pretty, disciplined . .the list goes on . .but they don't realize just to be born means that there were millions of other sperm that didn't get to where you did . . .
And the choosing is of course God's order . . .he created, he is worthy to do the choosing . . .but I just don't think it's connected to the "many are called but few are chosen" aspect because for me, "that" particular passage is speaking of other things. But when it comes to all people living now, I see us all being chosen to manifest now . . .we are not misfits, accidents or imposters . . . we were planned by God . . .allbeit, perhaps not always planned by parents . .but how often does God plan for something in man and man doesn't plan for it himself?
Great thoughts, Nathan!
Read this thread with interest, then came upon an old thread on the boards from 2007. It reminded me of this discussion, and the discussion on "Works"...it may be both of some interest and help...here's the link
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=144.msg773#msg773,
and a sampling of a couple of posts...
The "many are called, few are chosen" passage in Jesus' comments was specifically about those to whom He was speaking. Few Jews embraced His Lordship in that day, although through the Apostolic preaching "many were called." However, we're told in Romans 11 that though this is the sad state of affairs in this age, it will not always be that way. They're going to look upon Him Whom they've pierced and they're going to cry like the loudest squalling baby you've ever heard. Every eye shall see Him, according to Revelation, even those who did Him dirty in His first coming. That's not a justification for preterism, but about being granted "sight." Jesus is the Light Who gives light to every man who comes into the world.
-------------------------------
Could it be that the few get to reign with Him for the 1000 years or the eons of the eons, until the end comes? When all rule and authority and power has been abolished?
1Co 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)"
Could this be when the many are brought back into the picture? Remember all rule and
authority has been abolished. Will the few rule no more? Is this what these verses are saying, or am I reading into them to much?
God's blessing, James.
:cloud9: Amen Doc, bless you too. I have since received another confirmation on that. It actually came as an answer to the "we are God" segment of those in our walk. It had always bothered my spirit, and He showed me something. The usual scripture touted as proof is that we were one with Him from the foundation of the world, and somehow that got "translated" to, we are Christ.
What He showed me is, we were one with Him from the foundation, as a man and his wife are one. That means there were 2 that BECAME 1, not 1 to begin with. Subtle error, but error none the less. But the fact is, we were one with Him from the foundation of the world.
Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 07, 2009, 02:03:19 PM
:cloud9: Amen Doc, bless you too. I have since received another confirmation on that. It actually came as an answer to the "we are God" segment of those in our walk. It had always bothered my spirit, and He showed me something. The usual scripture touted as proof is that we were one with Him from the foundation of the world, and somehow that got "translated" to, we are Christ.
What He showed me is, we were one with Him from the foundation, as a man and his wife are one. That means there were 2 that BECAME 1, not 1 to begin with. Subtle error, but error none the less. But the fact is, we were one with Him from the foundation of the world.
Blessings.....
:thumbsup: "Let
us make man in
our image"... elohim is plural in that passage that refers to creation of man, hence the
us and
our.