Misogyny in the old testament.

[SLN]

Judges 19:22-29

22They are making their heart glad, and lo, men of the city, men -- sons of worthlessness -- have gone round about the house, beating on the door, and they speak unto the old man, the master of the house, saying, `Bring out the man who hath come unto thine house, and we know him.'

23And the man, the master of the house, goeth out unto them, and saith unto them, `Nay, my brethren, do not evil, I pray you, after that this man hath come in unto my house, do not this folly;

24lo, my daughter, the virgin, and his concubine, let me bring them out, I pray you, and humble ye them, and do to them that which is good in your eyes, and to this man do not this foolish thing.'

25And the men have not been willing to hearken to him, and the man taketh hold on his concubine, and bringeth [her] out unto them without, and they know her, and roll themselves upon her all the night, till the morning, and send her away in the ascending of the dawn;

26and the woman cometh in at the turning of the morning, and falleth at the opening of the man's house, where her lord [is], till the light.

27And her lord riseth in the morning, and openeth the doors of the house, and goeth out to go on his way, and lo, the woman, his concubine, is fallen at the opening of the house, and her hands [are] on the threshold,

28and he saith unto her, `Rise, and we go;' and there is none answering, and he taketh her on the ass, and the man riseth and goeth to his place,

29and cometh in unto his house, and taketh the knife, and layeth hold on his concubine, and cutteth her in pieces to her bones -- into twelve pieces, and sendeth her into all the border of Israel.

So what we see here is a bunch of guys wanting to hurt (probably rape, I think that is what they mean with 'know') a guest, so the man who invited them to stay over then sends his wife out, so she may be serially raped till she dies. He shows no sign of even caring for her death or suffering. Instead, he cuts her up. 

"Ah, what a nice morning, let's take a walk. Oh hey, it's my concubine, who I gave to a horde of rapists last night, and who apparently got raped again and again. Get up, woman! Oh, she must be dead from all the raping. Let's cut her into twelve pieces then"

The rapists are all killed later, so God gets a big thumbs up from me for that, but the guy who sacrifices his wife so she may die a horrible death has apparently done no wrong.

This is only one of the many (extremely) misogynistic passages I've encountered while reading the Old Testament so far. The problem is that God doesn't intervene, instead; he encourages.



Levicitus 12:1-2

1And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,

2`Speak unto the sons of Israel, saying, A woman when she giveth seed, and hath born a male, then she hath been unclean seven days, according to the days of separation for her sickness she is unclean;

3and in the eighth day is the flesh of his foreskin circumcised;

4and thirty and three days she doth abide in the blood of her cleansing; against any holy thing she doth not come, and unto the sanctuary she doth not go in, till the fulness of the days of her cleansing.

5`And if a female she bear, then she hath been unclean two weeks, as in her separation; and sixty and six days she doth abide for the blood of her cleansing.

Having a baby is gross. Having a baby girl though, that's twice as bad!  :thumbdown:



Deuteronomy 22:28-29

28`When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,

29then hath the man who is lying with her given to the father of the damsel fifty silverlings, and to him she is for a wife; because that he hath humbled her, he is not able to send her away all his days.

I think it's safe to assume that "hath caught her, and lain with her" can be translated to "raped her".

Here's the problems:

1) it's only a problem if someone runs into the rape.
2) The one who has been done wrong, is not the poor girl that just got captured and raped, but her father.
3) The girl then has to marry her attacker.


I think there's no need to add more verses, you all can see where I'm going with this. How can we approve of this in any way? How can this God be the same God as the God Jesus tells us about? It feels to me like it isn't. (even though there's many OT references in the NT). :ticked:

[Kept]

TY SNL I am dealing with this in my own life right now. Having to face facts that the bible is a very brutal book. And that its almost seems God changes personalities for the nt.

I am being so challanged hanging on another forum where the predominate view is athiesm and agnosticism and if Im not mistaken many that are there left christianity over the reality of the bibles brutality and what I guess they would term inconsistancies

I have made some great aquaintances over there that I already value as friends and Im challanging myself to gain answers for myself

I have to get back to you but I did post what I see so far on another thread here somewheres, you might have seen.

I have been able to deal with these things thru coming to know the bible on a spiritual metaphorical and allegorical level
that is the only way I can live with those type of verses. I still cannot imagine my God actually being this God portrayed in those stories. So Im seeking to understand and searching. Im tired of ignoring this.

kept

[Loveroftruth]

 :thumbsup: SLN
I too wonder about these things.

I have heard a few times of people mentioning like Gary Sigler  that the OT God is not the same God we know -- in other words the God they where hearing was NOT the true God... the God that told them to slay the woman and the children etc....... yes a voice, but maybe not the true voice :dontknow:

[Cindi]

SLN
I too wonder about these things.

I have heard a few times of people mentioning like Gary Sigler  that the OT God is not the same God we know -- in other words the God they where hearing was NOT the true God... the God that told them to slay the woman and the children etc....... yes a voice, but maybe not the true voice

I did hear Gary Sigler say once in a taped sermon that he had asked the Lord the heartwrenching question (concerning Elijah and the bear attacking the youths who taunted him) "Lord, how could you do that?" and the Lord spoke to his heart and said, "I didn't do it...Elijah did it."  I am going to post something I wrote for my blog. It is a long article.....but it takes a look at what you pondered in your post above....

These things have been heavy on my heart for several years...and I have spent much time reading about them and seeking the Lord's answers.  The following is the conclusion I have more or less come to about the "voices of god" we hear in the OT.

The Voice of the Good Shepherd from God Quest
God Quest is a site I highly recomend for those who want to see God "outside the box" that most of Christianity has tried to cram him into. I came upon this rather eclectic site over a year ago. It probably turned up on google when I was searching for my hot button topics (free will vs. sovereignty, suffering and the atonement) I have downloaded and read (at least once) most of the writings in the essay section and have since exchanged a few emails with the owner.

The Voice of the Good Shepherd and A Grand Experiment are probably my favorites. They both are similar in subject matter but I will focus mainly on The Voice of the Good Shepherd. I've recently reread (and reread again) The Voice of the Good Shepherd. The premise of both of these two articles is that there are two voices running throughout the OT. One is the true God....the other is the voice of the "destroyer" (satan) who has been given the power to impersonate the real God in this world. Both articles discuss two similar situations that involve Elijah and Moses......when God passed by them and allowed them to (really) "see" him. The author gives other examples where he sees evidence of the actions of "another" (false ) god.

The idea that there are voices of two different gods heard in the Old Testament is really not that far fetched. Is there anyone who has NOT wondered about the stark differences between the God of the OT and the God we see depicted in Jesus. I heard it said once that it seemed as if God "got saved" somewhere between Malachi and Matthew. Even today in the church system there are sincere believers who seem to hear the voice of a different God. The article presents the viewpoint that one voice depicts the "true" God.....the savior of all, condemner of none. The other voice is the one we learn to discern only through the holy spirit.....and realize that it is NOT the voice of the true spirit of God. Without delving into the sovereignty issue.....and with the assumption that God is in charge of everything whether he allows it or causes it.......part of the purpose is for us to learn to discern the true nature of God....shown to us in Jesus......under the guidance of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

I randomly went through the Strong's meanings for some of the Hebrew words that are translated God....Lord in the OT. (It was very random.....and focused mainly on several verses in Exodus that were mentioned in the one article) It was interesting that one of the words (elohiym sp?) can be traced back....as the singular form of a plural word that has "false god" as one of it's definitions.......back farther to an unused root word meaning (among other things) "to twist". Not enough to base a theology on for sure but enough to pique my interest. I know how the names of God reveal the nature he is trying to demonstrate yet could the names not also reveal a nature that is not "his" (although he is responsible for what this entity/being/god does)? Following is a quote from the article:

Running through the sacred literature of the three monotheistic world religions of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, the voice of two "gods" may be heard. In what Christians call the "Old Testament", the good God was identified as "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." In the book of Job, a second ruling spirit-being is identified, called Satan. The two gods (or "Lords") converse and transact in the first two chapters of the book. The origin of this second "god" is further stated in Isaiah 14, called "Lucifer." He is further identified in Ezekiel 28. An examination of these chapters reveals that the good God by sovereign decree has legitimated the worldly rule of Satan. He is free to impersonate the true God (do things in his name) and free to "deceive the nations." Satan is a "minister" of the good God and subject to Him, for God is sovereign over all. Satan is the instrument by which the true God has "committed all humans to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32). When the devil (also called, the tempter) came to Jesus, he said to Him that he would give Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory." Though Jesus told Satan to "beat it!" Jesus did not deny that Satan indeed did have this kind of power to bestow.

As you can see in this quote it points out that Jesus never told Satan he did not have this power....just that he told him to get lost. This article blames the "god of this world" for many of the OT atrocities, the sacrificial system, the Law etc. Not that the true God is just sitting back ringing his hands saying "Whatever will I do" but that for some reason this realm was subjected to futility and he allows the destroyer to carry that out. However, it is important to him that we know his basic nature is incompatible with death and destruction because he clearly states that "he created the destroyer to destroy". Both articles are very interesting...and there are quite a few other articles on the site (many written by the site owner) that offer a unique, makes you think, perspective. I exchanged a few emails with the author/owner of the website. And since this the post is already too long, I will add a few other snippets from the article....and bring this to a close.

There are many abusive and cruel things recorded in the Bible done in God's name that certainly were not done in his nature and were therefore not directly of the true God, though allowed by Him. Jesus said it is possible to discern between these two personalities by "their fruits." Discerned through the eyes of faith, there are certain things that the true God will and will not do. The object of our faith is God himself, his character, nature and personality, not necessarily that which was recorded as being done in his name. If we cannot bank our all on God's personality and His reputation for doing only good—then we are left with nothing to bank on at all! The litmus test to determine which "Lord" is speaking one need only think of Jesus: would Jesus do the thing?

It is a thought provoking article with much to think about. You really should visit the site and take a look..... 
http://www.godquest.org/index.htm

Cindi....
Mercy Not Sacrifice

[SLN]

I've been asking for answers as well, and almost immediatly found this article when I started google-ing (as if led by the holy spirit, eh? :p)

http://www.yahweh.com/booklets/Whois/Whois.htm

I will check out your links as well, Cindi. Thank you for sharing.  :boyheart:

Regarding the ability to discern through the Holy Spirit; I think this can actually be seen as your conscience. When you steal, you know you're doing something bad. When I scream at my parents, I immediately feel bad about it. Likewise, When I read about women being raped and it being condoned, it's as if there's an emotional red alert going off in my body and it feels like something is screaming at me that it can -not- be the real God's voice.  :2c:

[Kept]

Thanks for the links

:girlheart:

kept

[Loveroftruth]

GREAT responses!!!! Keep posting :girlheart:

[joian]

Absolutely inspired thoughts...........I started crying as I saw the first text on the concubine as it struck me differently rereading it after a number of years.........always the most hideous, heartless of stories........

For the first time I saw it somewhat  as an allegory..........

And then wondered at Hagar........how she was thrown into the desert to die and God did come to her and Ishmael to save their lives and comfort them.......

Joian

[Pierac]

Isa 45:7   I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Pro 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Deu 32:39  See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Amo 3:6  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in
a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Ecc 9:12  For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

Why?

CLV Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CEV Rom 9:15  The Lord told Moses that he has pity and mercy on anyone he wants to. 16  Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do... Rom 9:19  Someone may ask, "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?" 20  But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?


Yet we know, God is love.

1Jo 4:8  The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.



Will Jesus look to us one day and say the same words he did to Peter?

Mat 14:31  Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to
him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"


Peace,
Paul

[Loveroftruth]

Oh Paul, you came and rained on our parade  :thewife: :hammerhead: :mlaugh:

[Loveroftruth]

I dont think it is evil talk at all  :dontknow:
There is NOTHING wrong with searching for truth.....
:girlheart:

[Cindi]

How many people have rejected God simply because of how they see him depicted in the OT? Go to any of the skeptic sites on the internet, that dissect and criticize and defame God because of how they see him depicted there. Kept has mentioned that she is hanging out at an exchristian/atheist site....and through their eyes she has come to see the brutality many Christians are okay with.  I've come to believe that there are two voices of God in the OT. One is the true God, the other is the voice of the god of this world...Satan, the carnal man....whatever you want to call him/it. Part of our spiritual journey is to learn to identify which god is which...and discerning this in the pages of the OT is one of the biggest challenges. It is evidence that we have the seed of God within us and the holy spirit working within to give us discernment when we are repulsed by the stories of the atrocities in the OT....the seemingly schizoid behavior of God....loving and compassionate one minute....ready to smite and punish and reject the next.  So when the children of Israel "heard God" tell them to wipe out the Amalekites, or the Canaanites...or when Abraham "heard God" tell him to sacrifice Isaac, it was not THE God, it was the voice of the impostor (however you want to see him) Even the ten commandments warns us about other gods. My "rule of thumb" has become to filter everything through the image of the invisible God we see in Jesus. There are four gospels in the Bible. Four times, the same story, with little discrepancy is told, and retold. Four chances for us to see it and get it right. THIS is the picture of the invisible God....the face of God is the face of Jesus. If what I read in the OT does not line up with that....how can I attribute it to our Father in whom there is no darkness AT ALL?  I know the stories are there for a purpose....perhaps to instigate this rising up within us that cries out that it does not jive with who we know God to be. The beginning of the journey to discernment that leads us to the true God of light and love....just may begin in the OT when we begin to see that something is amiss. The pieces to the puzzle just do not fit.

Cindi.....
Mercy Not Sacrifice

[SLN]

Hi Paul,

I think the real issue here is God being seemingly schizophrenic.

Genesis 1:26: And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.'

Plural. The whole Elohim thing.

The link I posted earlier seems to have a lot of answers. Specifically the naming of God/Yahweh/LORD seems important. Especially, when they prove to be different entities.

When looking at Kings: 22:4-7 we see this:

4And he saith unto Jehoshaphat, `Dost thou go with me to battle [to] Ramoth-Gilead?' and Jehoshaphat saith unto the king of Israel, `As I am, so thou; as my people, so thy people; as my horses, so thy horses.'

5And Jehoshaphat saith unto the king of Israel, `Seek, I pray thee, to-day, the word of Jehovah;'

6and the king of Israel gathereth the prophets, about four hundred men, and saith unto them, `Do I go against Ramoth-Gilead to battle, or do I forbear?' and they say, `Go up, and the Lord doth give [it] into the hand of the king.'

7And Jehoshaphat saith, `Is there not here a prophet of Jehovah besides, and we seek by him?'

The King of Israel gathers his prophets, 400 of them and they say the Lord will give [it] to them if they battle (obviously, these are prophets of the Lord). But Jehoshaphat asks for a prophet of Jehova(Yahweh) even after this! Would this not indicate they are not one and the same?


Here's one more:

Jeremiah 2:8: The priests have not said, `Where [is] Jehovah?' And those handling the law have not known Me. And the shepherds transgressed against Me, And the prophets have prophesied by Baal, And after those who profit not have gone.

This makes it obvious that Baal is not just a little wooden statue. Now then, what is Baal?

(http://www.yahweh.com/booklets/Whois/ref4.jpg)

We now know Baal simply means Lord. Obviously, there's enmity between Jehovah(Yahweh) and Baal(Lord). Almost as if Baal is Jehovah's... adversary? ;)

Like in the previous example, it is clearly used as if it's a different thing from Jehovah(Yahweh). So why do we act as if they are one and the same?

Would we really need a holy spirit to discern who's word is true if there's only one God-like entity, and therefor only one word? This would explain why God seems to be loving and righteous one minute (fair judgments). And incredibly cruel the next.

What if the seemingly absent devil in the OT, is really just who we thought was one side of our God? Of course, he would appear in the NT again, because Jesus does have knowledge of him, being the son of the heavenly father. And not being the child of the 'father of all lies'.

One more verse to add to this:

2Corinthians4:3: and if also our good news is vailed, in those perishing it is vailed,

4in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; 

[joian]

Paul,

You comment reminded me of Jack..........LOL I get your humor...........and your timing.......but you can't just shut us down like that........LOL  Carry on ladies.........
I am enjoying the whole thread..........

Joian

[Hennessey]

Earlier today, I sent some over here from "My Church" with these words.  :happygrin:

........ sometimes I wonder why I am here but the Lord speaks to me that there will be a couple maybe three that will come out of their dead religion to know the one true God known as Love. Before I came here I spent three years at Tentmaker forums and loved to explore my Christ as do these dear brothers and sisters today. 

This discussion (link below) on "misogyny" is so much deeper than anything I shall find here and it thrills my heart to see some of God's children, free of the bonds of the law, men and their Hellfire religion, seek the depths of His purpose and ways. For any that would be interested, this is what liberty in Christ looks like. This is a wonderful way of coming to know your God and it will never be allowed nor encouraged in the fundamental church gatherings of today. 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1244.msg10388;topicseen#msg10388

Be blessed I can only pray others will come to know such freedom to explore our Christ, that captures all in His Love,

Jack

Should I go back and tell em they are too young?
I learned early on that the anointing never chokes but only causes one to see and feed on that which is suitable for his or her soul. Amazing how that works and how much liberty we can find in such.

I bookmarked this thread and plan on coming back and explore all the messages and links. 

[firstborn888]

Wow, tough subject.

I agree that this must be dealt with though.

Wasn't the all night rape a simple relating of facts of what happened and how the countrymen reacted when they heard of the crime? I don't see where God was condoning the home owners behavior. Are you saying the lack of any verbal condemnation is condoning the man's actions?

I haven't read this passage in many years. The only sense I can remember making of it is that maybe the master of the house was following some custom of honour of the time (?) by giving up his daughter rather than to let his guest be assaulted. Absolutely seems crazy though - to me any man worth anything would give himself up, right? Anyway, this was obviously a horrific act all the way around.

Here's my 'overall' take on the subject of God/evil though:

For years I have stated that He 'allows' evil to exist. The reality is that for a soverign God - that equals the same thing as creating it. God's heart/nature though is absolutely 100% the opposite of evil. In Him is no darkness at all.

This subject MUST (that is, MUST - did I mention absolutely MUST?) be rightly divided.

God has set things up here to let evil/darkness/death exist and fully intended for it to be so, but those things are the opposite of His nature. That's why the word satan means 'opposed', he is adversarial and 'stands against' everything God is.

Also, the OT sees God through the veil of the law. God definitely hides his true nature in the OT and reveals it in the New. Also "to the froward thou wilt show thyself froward". God resists the proud, and will show Himself unsavory to such.

I will go down to the mat anyday to absolutely insist there is no evil or darkness in God whatsoever, I know Him - and there is no evil in Him at all.  

Rightly dividing is the key here.

blessings,

- byron

P.S. I will also (I'm sure controversially) add that my faith is not in a book - it's in a person. The book talks about the person, but I know the person personally - which is far better.

[firstborn888]

As far as Misogyny in the old testament (now that I actually looked the word up) how's this:

5The angel that was talking to me went outside. He said, "Look! What do you see coming?" 6I said, "I don't know—what is it?" He said, "That is a measuring bucket." He also said, "That bucket is for measuring the sins* of the people in this country." 7A lid made of lead was lifted off the bucket, and there was a woman in the bucket. 8The angel said, "The woman represents evil." Then the angel pushed the woman down into the bucket and put the lead lid on it.

That's fairly Misogynomic, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, Eve ate the bad fruit, so this is ALL HER fault, right?  :mshock:
BTW, I am just playing devils advocate here, so no hate mail please. For the record, I love women, and have always had to fight a natural tendency to be greatly biased against men (great mom/abusive father syndrome)

[Loveroftruth]

Paul,

I once heard a speaker say "If you have to dumb down a meeting to get someone, you'll have to dumb down the meetings to keep them"

Hennesy Wrote

This discussion (link below) on "misogyny" is so much deeper than anything I shall find here and it thrills my heart to see some of God's children, free of the bonds of the law, men and their Hellfire religion, seek the depths of His purpose and ways. For any that would be interested, this is what liberty in Christ looks like. This is a wonderful way of coming to know your God and it will never be allowed nor encouraged in the fundamental church gatherings of today. 

AMEN! I so agree, I was thinking the same thing..... Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is FREEDOM :HeartThrob:

[Cindi]

I understand what you are saying Hennessey, Yet, just because we feel free to eat meat sacrificed to idols does not mean we should boast in our liberity and choke the little ones who disagree with our meat!  Love should prevail over our desire to post what we want. I'm just saying be careful of the young ones, that's all, nothing more or less. You and your readers, may not partake of the milk as some might. It is our duty to make sure we do not offend others in our liberty. From your past postings I'm sure you would agree. Peace brother, and let start slowly chewing together as not to offend the drinkers of milk. I'm sure you understand.   

Sorry Loveroftruth, I got you off topic so why don't you get it back on track   

Yet....perhaps what is choking many of the little ones is this God of the OT...with his vengeance and wrath....and kill them all, men, women and children attitude.....
Perhaps seeing a discussion like this among mature Christians is just what they need.(although I am not sure one would count me in that group since I have only been a Christian about 9 years but a believer of universal reconciliation almost right from the beginning)  Perhaps what is offensive to many new Christians is the view of God that the traditional church crams down their throat...and the verbal and mental and emotional linguistics one must go through to reconcile the God of the OT with the face of Jesus that we see in the NT.  They don't match....there is no way to make them match.....in my opinion....and it caused me great angst until I came to the conclusions I have.  Perhaps these conversations will be like a drink of cool water to parched lips???  Perhaps these conversations will provide a glimmer of what is really in the heart of God. (light and love and NO darkness AT ALL)  I say this without meaning to offend.  I have always thought it very rude for someone who does not post much on a forum to spout off their opinions before they settle in and get to know everyone.  Truth be told, I will probably not post often on this forum since my best bud annie and I have a yahoo group that we started about a year ago called Emerging Universalist....which is my heart.  It is a forum where discussions like this are commonplace...and where we reason together as God invites us to do.  I understand your concerns, Paul, and I think it is good and commendable to protect new believers.....but perhaps in protecting them and soft pedaling what we say and really believe, more harm is being done.  Just my opinion...and again excuse me for being so outspoken.

Cindi.....


Mercy Not Sacrifice

[SeekerSA]

Members board topics cannot be viewed by guests.

Jack you may want to change your post on MyChurch or indicate registration is required.

Don't feel led to move the topic (yet)

Blessings

[AbbasChild]

This is a very interesting topic and I don't think there are simple answers to that. So far I understand Father is a Healer, Restorer and Reconciler. He is all Good and there is no one Good but Him. Yet there is the 'problem' of evil and we also know that He is soverign over all the works of His hands. As I have come to see it, Father takes the responsibility for the evil His creatures (including the 'god' of this worldsystem) do, because He 'owns' them and He made them, very well knowing what they would do.

Here are two lines of thought to this that both ring very true to my ears:

The 'Job Principal'

It is also important to note the book of Job. There is an important principal in the Book of Job that is a key to an understanding of God as Good.

Job and his friends spend 40 chapters trying to work out why Job was suffering 'at Gods hand'. His friends wrongly insisted that he was suffering because God was punishing him for his sin. The final message to them all is that God is God, he has some very powerful creatures, God does what he likes, and who are we to argue with Him?

Whilst Job accepted his suffering as coming from God, and that God can do what he wants, we the readers are made privy to a little extra information. The very powerful creature responsible for Job's woes was not God but Satan. And the cause of Job's ills was an altercation between good and evil in the heavenlies.

This 'Job Principal' provides a precedent for care in uncritically accepting the term 'God' at face value in other problematic passages of scripture.

God gives his creatures freedom, and with this freedom, there is the (often actuated) possibility of abuse of this freedom. The second aspect of this 'Job Principal' is that God accepts full responsibility for everything his creatures do. In this case, God accepts responsibility for Satan's actions!

A legal analogy on the acceptance of responsibility may be helpful.

A Nuclear power station may have 'leaked' causing death and injury. The owner of the power station then declares himself bankrupt, resulting in the injured and the relatives of those killed having no redress to any compensation. However if the Government steps in and buys the power station, in so doing it also takes on its liabilities. The Government did not cause the deaths and injuries, but by its action it assumes responsibility, and those affected by the nuclear accident now have legal redress. When they 'sue' the Power Station, they now 'sue' the Government, even though the Government did not cause their injuries. The government did not 'have to', it chose to accept responsibility.

Acceptance of responsibility is seen at its most clear form in the Cross-.where Christ 'becomes sin' for us and takes away the sin of the World. The righteous dying for the unrighteous.

This website tries to find some answers to this questions: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~moorea/index.html

( I don't agree with everything the writer says but thought it interesting )

The other comment would be of John Gavazzonie:

"I would like to see you give some explanation regarding the powers that are circumscribed by the power of God. You do briefly mention satan as a mere tool in the Job scenario but for those whose minds flash to a number of scriptures that speak of principalities and powers a more detailed explanation would help. They may erroneously conclude by your description of a one power universe that you have not taken these other scriptures into consideration. I have often felt that in giving an answer for the hope that lies within us, particularly in the subject you're dealing with we should make it clear that God brings about evil in a different way than He saves, heals and delivers. The latter is a result of  the direct touch of His Spirit  with His intrinsic goodness while the former is brought into existence by His  withholding Himself from the evil one, so that in his perceived autonomy, satan is a malignant will in God's universe that contaminates everything he touches, quite unlike God, but as you and I know, ultimately he serves the purpose of God.  To state my point as clearly as possible, we want to avoid being understood as believing that evil arises out of the intrinsic Purity which is God Himself. We are all of us, men and angels, so constituted that we need Him as love, light and life,  with the result that when He in His wisdom deprives us of that for a season, we are exposed to that malignancy of autonomous existence (so-called "free will") that we were not ultimately created for. In short, we must spend a season exposed to and contaminated by that which is alien to us so that we might fully absorb that for which we were created. Our natural, created capacity for God must be temporarily filled with the perverse so that finally we cry out for His Goodness ("God-ness"). It seems that the only possible preparation for being filled with all the fulness of God is to be "consumed with all unrighteousness (unrightness)" bringing about a cry of desperation which is the necessary condition of "right-filling"  and which lies at the heart of faith. I'm beginning to get clearer on something: that  our natural capacity for God, though given by Him, is powerless to fulfill itself and awaits His touch of grace. What a dilemma natural man is faced with (I'm not yet speaking of sinful man); he has a capacity, thus a need and is utterly incapable of doing anything about it until touched by grace. That's why  he is so vulnerable to turn to anything that promises to fill him because he can't stand the awful silence of God while his cavernous need is ever before him. When you add the perversity of sin and death to his natural state he is now really ready to experience grace. In other words, sinfulness compounds the dilemma of naturalness setting man up for grace. This is what I want to look at more carefully and God permitting probe to its core. Of course, you set out to make the point that it is God and God alone, not any out-of-control rogue spirit that we are all ultimately dealing with and real mature faith operates in that knowledge; that you have powerfully done. I can't help it that you have a quality to your writing that invariably moves me to say, 'Hey, I want to look even more carefully at this.'"  End Quote.

[SLN]

Wasn't the all night rape a simple relating of facts of what happened and how the countrymen reacted when they heard of the crime? I don't see where God was condoning the home owners behavior. Are you saying the lack of any verbal condemnation is condoning the man's actions?

I'm saying the context of the entire OT (the law) condones this kind of behavior against women. They think it's ok because they are taught, seemingly by God (through the law), that a woman is worth much less than a man. The all night rape was a result of what the man thought was the right thing to do. The way it was written indicates it was considered a honorable course of action, for no blame is attributed to the man.

I know God too, and mine seems to hold a different opinion on how honorable it is. ;)

I will go down to the mat anyday to absolutely insist there is no evil or darkness in God whatsoever, I know Him - and there is no evil in Him at all. 

Rightly dividing is the key here.

There doesn't have to be darkness in our Heavenly Father for him to have created an evil counterpart/agent/servant. That's what Satan is for. What I'm saying is that while evil serves a purpose (for me the purpose is avoiding it at all costs, and searching our Heavenly Father instead). I'd say it's not too farfetched the devil made the people of old believe he was God. His purpose is after all to decieve and tempt. There's no way of telling what light is, when there is no darkness.

I delved a lot deeper into this in my post on page 1. Specifically note the scriptural quote which clearly indicates there is a difference between Jehovah(Yahweh) and the Lord, while we in this age tend to believe they are one and the same.

Maybe the OT is confusing and contradictory, simply because the writers were confused and it showed in their writing. Inspired, sure. Inspired by whom though? That's what we have the Holy Spirit for, to discern.

[pickr]

The hearts of men are wicked, and sometimes, God gave Israel exactly what it wanted.

Am I "letting God off the hook"? Perhaps. But I don't think it is a small matter that the saga of Israel is an oracle of how mankind ought NOT to be, not what it should be. It is a saga of futility and wrongheadedness.

Jesus knew those hard scripptures better than we, yet He summed up the law thusly... to love God, and to love our neighbors. Paul knew those scriptures as well, and he says their is no Jew, no Greek, no male or female, in Christ.

Peace and blessings,

Andy

[Loveroftruth]

John 8:44

NASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil :dontknow:

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not :sigh:

[Kept]

wow loveroftruth

you just said a mouthful!

:girlheart:

kept