YLTMat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
There are only 2 simple but interesting choices here.
Choice #1: We are not angels, so we are not going into the fire. About who is the verse?
Choice #2: We are angels, and are going into the fire.
Choice #3: We are not angels but still go into the fire. A change in plan. KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not
:icon_jokercolor:
Thoughts?
Are you joking :icon_joker:
Life is a joke, and then you die. That's what this thread is about what happens if all jokes have been told :winkgrin:
I think there's more than 2 choices left.
It depends on what or who is the devil and his messengers: a fallen angel, carnal mind, evil power?
On what is the fire : punition, correction, purification?
On when is that age-during fire: now, in the future?
I don't agree Q.
When/where/how long is not really relevant for this thread I think.
"They" are cast into the fire. Who are "they"?
God prepared the fire for the devil and his angels. That's 2 groups.
If humans are cast into that fire that can imo only mean two things
- Humans are the devil or the angels. Still 2 groups.
- Humans are not the devil or the angels. 3 instead of 2 groups.
Point 1 is obvious; we are angles.
Point 2 seems impossible because it implies Father changed His plan. He planned
not to use the fire for humans but later on decides/was forced to do so anyway.
You're right, if the question is who are "they", the rest is irrelevant; I did not understand it that way on the first reading.
Well, if the 2 groups are those with the mind of Christ and those with the carnal mind, then the angels in both case are the messengers or the bearer of those minds.
Same thing as those with the mark of the beast and those with the mark of Christ in the book of revelations.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2010, 10:35:09 PM
YLTMat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
There are only 2 simple but interesting choices here.
Choice #1: We are not angels, so we are not going into the fire. About who is the verse?
Choice #2: We are angels, and are going into the fire.
Choice #3: We are not angels but still go into the fire. A change in plan. KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not
:icon_jokercolor:
There is a 3rd choice
we are not angels, but humans, but yet even though as humans we have been messangers of the devil, so partake with the devil and his angels in the fire.
Angel means messenger.
But there are beings called angels. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Notice it says that Jesus was crowned with glory and honour so that the angels obey him, so even though he was lowered to the earth realm he still was higher in authority than the angels.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on November 20, 2010, 07:34:35 PMBut there are beings called angels. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.
I've been thinking about that. He came as a servant (=lower) to mankind.
QuoteNotice it says that Jesus was crowned with glory and honour so that the angels obey him, so even though he was lowered to the earth realm he still was higher in authority than the angels.
That would mean He was (considered) higher to some angels but lower to other angels.
It also avoids TT question :spank:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 20, 2010, 07:45:20 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 20, 2010, 07:34:35 PMBut there are beings called angels. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.
I've been thinking about that. He came as a servant (=lower) to mankind.
He is only considered lower by those of the world, such as kings and religious powers, he says that those who wish to be greatest, let him serve another.
But yes he did come as a suffering servant and not to be ministered to but to minister, and so could be thought of as lower than mankind, from our carnal viewpoint.
QuoteNotice it says that Jesus was crowned with glory and honour so that the angels obey him, so even though he was lowered to the earth realm he still was higher in authority than the angels.
That would mean He was (considered) higher to some angels but lower to other angels.
No, I don't see why he would be lower than any angel. He was still God but operated in a limited temple(Think of a powerful warrior in ancient times, this warrior was feared and respected by all, but one day he gets old and now walks around with a crooked back and limps about, with a long grey beard, does this mean his authority is gone? He still retains his glory and honour and the troops still obey him). But one could argue that for that time period he operated and functioned as the son of man, the lamb of GOD the father and being in our likeness he was limited by the sameish authority that Adam had when he was perfect, but being of greater substance he had more faith and heart than Adam and could do greater works.
It also avoids TT question :spank:
Why are you showing me a video clip of your mother spanking you whitewings :mblush:
It also avoids TT question
Why are you showing me a video clip of your mother spanking you whitewings :spank:
:LH:Cause he knows he deserved it. :laughing7:
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 20, 2010, 07:31:28 PM
Angel means messenger.
There is a type of angel that has characteristics that we do not have, e.g. Gabriel.
18And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. --Luke 1
Quote from: wwI've been thinking about that. He came as a servant (=lower) to mankind.
He was lowered into flesh and blood because we are partakers of flesh and blood. The angels in heaven are not flesh and blood.
Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"partakers"G2841
κοινωνέω
koinōneōkoy-no-neh'-o
From G2844;
to share with others (objectively or subjectively): - communicate, distribute, be partaker.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2010, 10:35:09 PM
YLTMat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
There are only 2 simple but interesting choices here.
Choice #1: We are not angels, so we are not going into the fire. About who is the verse?
Choice #2: We are angels, and are going into the fire.
Choice #3: We are not angels but still go into the fire. A change in plan. KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not
:icon_jokercolor:
Aggelos is not exclusive to being an angel.
QuoteG32 aggelos ang'-el-os
from aggello (probably derived from G71; compare G34) (to bring tidings);
a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:--angel,
messenger.
The word for angel is used for the spies that Joshua sends to spy on Jericho.
Joshua 6:17
And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
"messengers"
H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
John the Baptist is a messenger [angel] of God.
10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
--Mat 11
"messenger"
G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.
so could "the devil and his angels (messengers)" include men then? i.e., anyone not a messenger of God is a messenger of 'the devil'?
or maybe there's another layer to this; again, anything not of God tortured (basanismos/tested) and destroyed (apollumi) so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on November 23, 2010, 01:06:17 AM
so could "the devil and his angels (messengers)" include men then? i.e., anyone not a messenger of God is a messenger of 'the devil'?
or maybe there's another layer to this; again, anything not of God tortured (basanismos/tested) and destroyed (apollumi) so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord. :2c:
Yes, absolutely.
I really believe that if the translators would have used "messengers" throughout the Bible, instead of "angels" there would be much less of mans imagination to contribute. Like wise with the word hell. but then again I rest in the knowledge that what we have is just what the Lord God wanted us to have. :bigGrin:
We must not forget that Jesus had things to say to the Sadducees' doctrines as well as the Pharisees. Even Jews today, Rabbinical ones have Angelic beings within their "lore" (for lack of a better term) who are not "mortal men" as you and I.
Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
Messengers who are men, very possible - but there are surely spiritual beings who are spirits indeed, not clothed in clay like we are, not the children of Adam, who are given the office of Messenger also.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
These angels, messengers, would have been warriors, powerful ones - and 12 legions, a Roman legion was approximately 6 000 (full legion) men.
72,000 angels/messengers - warriors to defend the King...Christ didn't have that many followers in Judea, or Israel at the time - armed for battle at least, and that is made especially apparent due to his reaction to Peter who is a mortal man seeking to defend him.
Christ's kingdom is not of this world, as he said to Pilate - if it were, his followers would have stopped his arrest.
It is based on this that I believe Angels are not merely...Messenger men, or mortal prophets. But spiritual beings who are Heavenly in origin, not children of Adam.
Revelation 228-9 (American Standard Version, 1901)
[8] And I John am he that heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that showed me these things.
[9] And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them that keep the words of this book: worship God.
Unveiling 228-9 (Concordant Literal Translation)
8 And I, John, am the one hearing and observing these things. And when I hear and observe, I fall to worship in front of the feet of the messenger who is showing me these things.
9 And he is saying to me, "See! No! a fellow slave of yours am I, and of your brethren, the prophets and those keeping the sayings of this scroll. Worship God!"
These beings are not 'Adamites', is my expressed point.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 22, 2010, 11:14:15 PMAggelos is not exclusive to being an angel.
But that solves nothing I'm affraid.
IF we are angels we are cast in the fire prepared for us.
IF we are not the type of angels mentioned in that verse, or if we are not angels at all we are casr into a fire that was not prepared for us.
Meaning God changed His plan.
Summary 1: God changes or we are angels.
Summary 2: We are cast into a fire that was or was not prepared for us.
Does anyone understand what I'm saying/asking?
Yes I do.
Either we (mankind) are included because we're considered the 'angels' in the verse, or it was prepared for others, but God decided at some point to put 'us' (mankind) there too; which would mean the plan changed from the original intent.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on November 23, 2010, 08:00:08 AM
Yes I do.
Either we (mankind) are included because we're considered the 'angels' in the verse, or it was prepared for others, but God decided at some point to put 'us' (mankind) there too; which would mean the plan changed from the original intent.
Purely playing devil's advocate here :happygrin:
Who says God can't change His plan? Didn't He do that in the OT on more than one occasion?
Gen 6: "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air – for I am grieved that I have made them." "
Exodus 32: "the Lord said to Moses:"Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation." But Moses pleaded for his people and finally God said to Moses:
Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.Jonah 3: "The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust ... When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened."
In 2 Kings 20:1-7, Hezekiah was mortally ill and the LORD told him he would not recover, but after prayer he DID recover and was given an additional 15 years of life.
Numbers 16: "and the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Stand apart from this band, that I may consume them at once." But Moses intervened so that the entire community around the few who did evil would be spared and God "changed His plan."
There are more, but you get the picture ... He is God; how is "changing the plan" changing who He is?
A change of plan can mean:
- Nothing. I the Lord do not change.
- Because He changed His plan the first one was not perfect.
- Unforseen events forced Him to do so. Meaning He's not all knowing/poweful.
- He doesn't stick to His plans. Meaning He can change every command/promise ever given by Him because He replanned things.
- Exodus 32:14 would mean God admitted He did something wrong and needed to repent of it.
Admittingly your verses are food for
court thought; but the whole idea seems to clash with the whole God is perfect idea.
YLTExod 32
[color=#00e0]14[/color] and Jehovah repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.
Repented
נחם
nâcham
BDB Definition:
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself
1b) (Piel) to comfort, console
1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to be sorry, have compassion
1d2) to rue, repent of
1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
1d4) to ease oneself
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1344
Dunno, but there is something weird about the stem/mood of repented :dontknow:
Stem - Niphal See [H8833]
Mood -Imperfect See [H8811]
Count-1602
Niphal
a) Niphal is the "passive" of Qal-See [H8851]
Qal Niphal
He saw he was seen, he appeared
He saw the angel the angel was seen
He sent he was sent
He created it was created
b) Niphal sometimes expresses a "reflexive" action.
He guarded he was guarded, also
He guarded himself
c) Several verbs use Niphal, although they express simple action
and are active in English. Common examples are:
He fought, he remained, he swore, he entered
This form accounts for 6.0% of the verbs parsed.
Imperfect
The imperfect expresses an action, process or condition which is
incomplete, and it has a wide range of meaning:
1a) It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action
in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and
pictorial. The perfect expresses the "fact", the imperfect adds
colour and movement by suggesting the "process" preliminary to its
completion.
He put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear
1b) A phrase such as "What seekest thou?", refers not only to the
present, but assumes that the search has continued for some time.
Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?
These relate not so much as to one occasion, as to a
continued condition.
2) The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition
of the action may consist in its frequent repetition.
2a) In the present:
it is "said" today
a wise son "maketh glad" his father
2b) In the past:
"and so he did" - regularly, year by year
a mist "used to go up"
the fish which "we used to eat"
the manna "came down" -regularly
He "spoke" -repeatedly
3) The imperfect is used to express the "future", referring not only
to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has
not yet begun:
3a) This may be a future from the point of view of the real
present; as:
Now "shalt thou See what I will do"
"We will burn" thy house
3b) It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:
He took his son that "was to reign"
she stayed to See what "should be done"
4) The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of
the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades
of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the
conditional moods. Such actions are strictly "future" in reference
to the assumed point of relation, and the simple imperfect
sufficiently expresses them; e.g.
of every tree thou "mayest eat"
"could we know"
He "would" say
5a) The imperfect follows particles expressing "transition",
"purpose", "result" and so forth as, "in order that", "lest"; e.g.
say thou art my sister, "that it may be well with thee"
let us deal wisely with the nation, "lest it multiplies"
5b) When however there is a strong feeling of "purpose", or when it
is meant to be strongly marked, then of course the moods are
employed; e.g.
raise me up "that I may requite them"
who will entice Ahab "that he may go up"
what shall we do "that the sea may be calm"
The moods are also employed to express that class of
future actions which we express in the "optative"
"may I die"
"may" the LORD "establish" his word
"may" the child "live".
God doesn't repent, or does he? Num. 23:19
<blockquote> How can Num. 23:19, which says God doesn't repent, be reconciled with Ex. 32:14, which clearly says he does? </blockquote> [size=-1]Biblical Errancy Pamphlets by Dennis McKinsey (http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/pamphlets.html)Pamphlet 1 Q4.[/size]
The verses McKinsey mentions are:
<blockquote> (Num 23:19 NIV) God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? [size=-1]Note: the word repent is used in the KJV and it means a change of mind.[/size]</blockquote> <blockquote> Exo 32:14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened. </blockquote>
This is a typical McKinsey technique and beloved of all skeptics, read the scripture cold, don't be swayed as to what is being said or what commentators allege is intended. We should not interpret scripture with scripture, so we are told by McKinsey. (EBE (http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficulties/ebe.htm), p 500).
In Num 23:19 these words are spoken by Baalam but are attributed to God in Num 23:16. God is comparing himself with the vacillation of men, and the meaning is clarified in the second half of the verse: if God speaks then he will act, if God makes a promise then he will fulfil it. Clearly, God is contrasting his nature with the nature of man. We make promises but then do not fulfil them. We say we will do something but then do not do it.
Now in scripture there are many places when God changes his mind: Genesis 6:6,7; Jonah 3:10; 2 Kings 20:1-7; Numbers 16:20-35; Numbers 16:44-50; Genesis 18:23-33. However it is
usually because the disaster God threatens is conditional[/b], if the people respond by repenting from sin, or they humble themselves before God, then he does not bring on them the disaster he had planned. The following two quotes show that God's judgements are conditional upon our response.
<blockquote> (Jer 18:7-10 NIV) If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, {8} and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. {9} And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, {10} and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. </blockquote> <blockquote> (2 Chr 7:13-14 NIV) "When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, {14} if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. </blockquote> Examples where God changes his mind in response to people are:
<blockquote> (1 Ki 21:29 NIV) "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son." </blockquote> <blockquote> (2 Ki 22:19-20 NIV) Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. {20} Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.'" So they took her answer back to the king. </blockquote> The classic case is the example of the Ninevites who believed God and repented of their wickedness, Jonah 3:5-9.
<blockquote> (Jonah 3:10 NIV) When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. </blockquote> In Exo 32:14 God relented because of the prayers/intercession of Moses for his people.
<blockquote> (Exo 32:10-14 NIV) Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation." {11} But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? {12} Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. {13} Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'" {14} Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened. </blockquote> God's dealings with mankind are far more dynamic than McKinsey imagines.
Tekton's comments here (http://www.tektonics.org/gk/godchangemind.html), John Piper's comments (http://www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/FreshWords/1998/11nov98.htm).
Does conditional really changes Gods mind?
Surely He knew before creation that condition would (not) be met.
I again have come to the slippery part of the slope for me, I believe what ever He did WAS the plan.
"Who says God can't change His plan? Didn't He do that in the OT on more than one occasion? " LS
:cloud9: Only slightly off topic.... :laughing7: God was testing Mose's heart when He said He would destroy the Israelites. Standing in the gap for someone who deserves the judgement according to their works, is the heart of an intercessor. And by testing, I mean God knew what was in his heart, but He wanted MOSES to "see" it. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 23, 2010, 04:50:38 PM
"Who says God can't change His plan? Didn't He do that in the OT on more than one occasion? " LS
I believe what ever He did WAS the plan.
Agreed. God's not surprised by anything, nor has to go to a Plan B.
Aside from the point that not every being in the universe is an Adamite (Cherubim are not humans, for example)
We who are Christians are ambassadors of Christ in the Earth. What is an ambassador but a distinguished messenger, diplomat, and expressor of a higher authority? We are messengers of the Kingdom of God, should it not be befitting that the Kingdom of Darkness would have similar things? Fight fire, with fire?
The Messiah and his messengers; ambassadors, diplomats, servants, warriors, generals, kings, retainers, prophets, citizens of the Kingdom of God -- Adamite, Angelic and otherwise.
vs.
The devil and his messengers; ambassadors, diplomats, servants, warriors, generals, kings, retainers, prophets, citizens of the Kingdom of Darkness -- Adamite, Angelic and otherwise.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 23, 2010, 07:41:45 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 22, 2010, 11:14:15 PMAggelos is not exclusive to being an angel.
But that solves nothing I'm affraid.
IF we are angels we are cast in the fire prepared for us.
IF we are not the type of angels mentioned in that verse, or if we are not angels at all we are casr into a fire that was not prepared for us.
Meaning God changed His plan.
Summary 1: God changes or we are angels.
Summary 2: We are cast into a fire that was or was not prepared for us.
Not sure what problem needs to be solved, It appears your still assuming that the word must mean an angel, when it does not.
Correct me if I am wrong. It may add more choices to your beginning premise.
Does anyone understand what I'm saying/asking?
Quote from: LS on November 23, 2010, 04:09:10 PM
Purely playing devil's advocate here :happygrin:
Who says God can't change His plan? Didn't He do that in the OT on more than one occasion?
Gen 6: "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air – for I am grieved that I have made them." "
Exodus 32: "the Lord said to Moses:"Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation." But Moses pleaded for his people and finally God said to Moses: Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
Jonah 3: "The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust ... When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened."
In 2 Kings 20:1-7, Hezekiah was mortally ill and the LORD told him he would not recover, but after prayer he DID recover and was given an additional 15 years of life.
Numbers 16: "and the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Stand apart from this band, that I may consume them at once." But Moses intervened so that the entire community around the few who did evil would be spared and God "changed His plan."
There are more, but you get the picture ... He is God; how is "changing the plan" changing who He is?
(Note, this has nothing to do with the angels devil scripture)
:thumbsup: A lot of people think God is some kind of robot in the sky, but I think he's like us, has a soul and gets angry, and sometimes it takes prayer to heal his emotions, after all we are called the bride of Christ, a bride comforts her husband, but some out there think their husband in invincible, "surely he doesn't need any comforting", as a lot of brides think, he should tough it up and be a man, what as he got to do with me.
But in these scriptural examples the bride does comfort her husband, for the prayer of the righteous availeth much.
I am is here, and he has emotions, so watch out he might lose his temper.
So start sacrificing some animals and appease his anger :icon_joker:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 23, 2010, 08:25:25 PM
Not sure what problem needs to be solved, It appears your still assuming that the word must mean an angel, when it does not.
Correct me if I am wrong. It may add more choices to your beginning premise.
I don't see how.
It doesn't matter how many groups of angels there are. Neither does it matter if we are angels or not.
Quote from: jabcat on November 23, 2010, 08:00:08 AM
Either we (mankind) are included because we're considered the 'angels' in the verse, or it was prepared for others, but God decided at some point to put 'us' (mankind) there too; which would mean the plan changed from the original intent.
Question: Who are "those"?
Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2010, 08:35:15 PM
(Note, this has nothing to do with the angels devil scripture)
:offtopic:
:punish:
:icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 23, 2010, 09:08:39 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2010, 08:35:15 PM
(Note, this has nothing to do with the angels devil scripture)
:offtopic:
:punish:
:icon_jokercolor:
Hey you went off topic before me, so have a bit of this yourself :punish:
And here's another for being a bad example to the community :friendstu:
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 08:14:46 PM
Aside from the point that not every being in the universe is an Adamite (Cherubim are not humans, for example)
We who are Christians are ambassadors of Christ in the Earth. What is an ambassador but a distinguished messenger, diplomat, and expressor of a higher authority? We are messengers of the Kingdom of God, should it not be befitting that the Kingdom of Darkness would have similar things? Fight fire, with fire?
The Messiah and his messengers; ambassadors, diplomats, servants, warriors, generals, kings, retainers, prophets, citizens of the Kingdom of God -- Adamite, Angelic and otherwise.
vs.
The devil and his messengers; ambassadors, diplomats, servants, warriors, generals, kings, retainers, prophets, citizens of the Kingdom of Darkness -- Adamite, Angelic and otherwise.
I can agree with those names/titles. But the verse summarizes you whole second list in devil+angels. That would for example mean the diplomats are angels too.
The leader of the first list is obviously Jesus.
So aren't the groups:
a] Jesus and His angels. => A unkown percentage is Adamite.
b] Devil and his angles. => A unkown percentage is Adamite. The people that got judged by their works just a few verses earlier.
Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2010, 08:35:15 PM
Quote from: LS on November 23, 2010, 04:09:10 PM
Purely playing devil's advocate here :happygrin:
Who says God can't change His plan? Didn't He do that in the OT on more than one occasion?
Gen 6: "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air – for I am grieved that I have made them." "
Exodus 32: "the Lord said to Moses:"Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation." But Moses pleaded for his people and finally God said to Moses: Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
Jonah 3: "The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust ... When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened."
In 2 Kings 20:1-7, Hezekiah was mortally ill and the LORD told him he would not recover, but after prayer he DID recover and was given an additional 15 years of life.
Numbers 16: "and the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Stand apart from this band, that I may consume them at once." But Moses intervened so that the entire community around the few who did evil would be spared and God "changed His plan."
There are more, but you get the picture ... He is God; how is "changing the plan" changing who He is?
(Note, this has nothing to do with the angels devil scripture)
:thumbsup: A lot of people think God is some kind of robot in the sky, but I think he's like us, has a soul and gets angry, and sometimes it takes prayer to heal his emotions, after all we are called the bride of Christ, a bride comforts her husband, but some out there think their husband in invincible, "surely he doesn't need any comforting", as a lot of brides think, he should tough it up and be a man, what as he got to do with me.
But in these scriptural examples the bride does comfort her husband, for the prayer of the righteous availeth much.
I am is here, and he has emotions, so watch out he might lose his temper.
So start sacrificing some animals and appease his anger :icon_joker:
Oh wow, what a weak deity you have...
weak :mshock:
You forget your God. He is a God of mercy and compassion, you think that this is easy, to see every sin in every single human being on the entire planet?
Destroying things is much easier than creating, loving.
God created us human beings for a reason, and that is for us to love him as he loved us. The more love we show him the more love he shows us, because love heals all things. Love is something that is not based on one, it is based on relationship, as he loves us we love him, and our love heals Gods heart, believeth thou this?
QuoteGod created us human beings for a reason, and that is for us to love him as he loved us. The more love we show him the more love he shows us, because love heals all things. Love is something that is not based on one, it is based on relationship, as he loves us we love him, and our love heals Gods heart, believeth thou this?
No I believe what the scriptures say about the Almighty God,creator of all.
He doesn't need to be "healed" He is the healer.
He doesn't need our love because He is love.
He doesn't need to be conforted or consoled or encouraged or lifted because there isn't an ounce of changing in Him.
He WAS, IS, WILL BE perfect.
Believe thou this?
He doesnt need it but he wants it, that's why he created us. By loving him in return it makes it all worthwhile for him, he delights in the praise of his people, doesn't just sit there like a wet blanket :winkgrin:
Unveiling 228-9 (Concordant Literal Translation)
8 And I, John, am the one hearing and observing these things. And when I hear and observe, I fall to worship in front of the feet of the messenger who is showing me these things.
9 And he is saying to me, "See! No! a fellow slave of yours am I, and of your brethren, the prophets and those keeping the sayings of this scroll. Worship God!"
This "angel," here (in CLT) called a "messenger" says that he is OF John's brothers, the prophets and OF those keeping the sayings of the "Revelation." It has been generally understood by me that many of those called angels are perfected spirits of the saints; that is, a saint's spirit, when brought to sufficient development, in this life or while the body is in repose, is what many refer to as an "angel." Who better to supervise the servant spirits who quicken those in the earth into revelation of something like the scroll of "Isaiah," for instance, than the spirit of that just man Isaiah made perfect?
The cherubim are probably not to be classed as "angels." Until the saints for whom it is prepared enter into the Resurrection, they are in the place that Adam failed to fill. He was to "cultivate (KJV: dress) and guard (KJV: keep)" the garden. Though representing, they are beyond representations of the sons of God. They are expressions of the nature of those who will have dominion, the sons of God in manifestation. (This is more fully brought out by Bill Brittain in his commentary on Ezekiel.)
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
It's simple.
The "fire age-during" is the LOF... and the spiritual Brimstone can heal both Satan, his angels and those (human beings!) who are yet unsaved...
and in verse 46, we have "chastening eonian" so we know what type of casting away that is. Nuff said. :thumbsup:
After that God will do Ephesians 1: 9 - 10