Lowered?

[Beloved Servant]

""The 'spirit of man', leaving the eternal realms of HIS SPIRIT to become encased in a tabernacle of flesh became 'a living soul', literally A BREATHING ONE on this earth plane. " Now I love Ray Prinzing but where did this happen?

We are all part of the Body of Christ, Micah.
Slain before the foundation of the world.
When He was lowered, we were lowered.
When He was raised, we were raised.

If Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, was that on Earth in Palestine?

[Molly]

Slain before the foundation of the world

We were chosen in Him before [pro] the casting down [katabole] of the world.

The lamb was slain from [apo] the casting down [katabole] of the world.


In other words, the way I read it, the casting down of the world is what caused the lamb to be slain.  Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

[Beloved Servant]

All part of the plan.
God never had to change or accommodate.

[sheila]

  let's clear up the misunderstanding..of [like the angels that forsook their proper dwelling places]   that was a differntiation between God placeing in clay vessels

  His spirit seed....and satan's angels..that forsook their dwellings to come to earth and have no flesh and blood but choose to take others flesh and

  blood to do their evil desires and lusts.  For a spirit hath no flesh and blood,lest God Himself put it into a vessel...as He did with His son from above...

  and prepare such a body for him....thou hast prepared a body for me....and I go to prepare a place for you.

[Beloved Servant]

  and prepare such a body for him....thou hast prepared a body for me....and I go to prepare a place for you.

There goes that symphony again.

[Molly]

Now if we were chosen in Him before the casting down of the world,

and the lamb is slain at/from the casting down of the world,

who is the slain lamb?


And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU DID IT TO ME.'
--Mat 25:40

[micah7:9]

WhiteWings and Jabcat, you two are making it possible to try and understand alot of what is supposed. As for me I thank you for the imput. :bigGrin:
Lets keep seeking.

[Beloved Servant]

Now if we were chosen in Him before the casting down of the world,

and the lamb is slain at/from the casting down of the world,

who is the slain lamb?


And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU DID IT TO ME.'
--Mat 25:40

There goes that symphony again and now the trumpets clearly sound.

[eaglesway]

To quote our beloved Nathan from another thread:

" . . .say it with me cuz I know you all know it . .. I've seen it posted on here more than once . . .your spirit goes . .where?  BACK to God WHO SENT IT.  Which indicates that it did exist "before" it entered into these bodies of flesh."

the fact that God sent it, is obvious enough. It does not logically follow as an absolute that "it" was sent as a pre-existent sentient being. The fact that we are chosen and elect "according to foreknowledge" indicates a reasonable possibility that we are foreknown because the consciousness of God transcends time. We are all to caught up in "before" and "after" in my opinion :o). Certainly tho, it is a error to imply thatconclusions such as the sentient preexistence of everyone as spirits could be conclusively taken from a verse like the one quoted. God breathed into the clay, spirit of life. The combination "created" something new. The new creation received a name, "Adam". This was a part of the plan from the beginning. If I was foreordained- i did not "necessarily" pre-exist as a conscious being. This of course is a discussion I hope, not dogma- so I am neither offended or in the slightest bit disturbed that someone else holds a different view. A lot of things are possible seen through a glass darkly- and due to our limitations in seeing eternal(time transcendant things) there is always a possibility that both views are true, and neither fully understood, like say, the predestination/ free will conflict. ;o)

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[thinktank]

The first man is of the Earth, second Adam is a life giving spirit


Another thing I'd like to mention is that I do not believe the original human spirits lived in heaven. Hevean = the place where God and his angles dwell.

Man was created a little lower than the angels.

So I see that the original home for humanity before becoming a soul was upon the Earth.

God created man in His image upon the Earth.

I reason the original home for humankind was a spiritual garden of Eden.

Possibly the same garden as where the anointed cherub was placed in.


44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.


No idea as to the type of body that original humanity had, but I do sense that it would be more Earthly than heavenly.Maybe in a sense, for lack of better words an Earthly angelic man type being, that was a little lower than the heavenly angels.

By placing a human spirit within clay it would create a new creature , a living soul. A being that would be veiled and only have access to limited knowledge. I think maybe God wanted to test humankind a test of faith, to see if they could still believe in God when veiled in flesh and make correct decisions.

Maybe I got his whole thing wrong and have misunderstood certain scriptures. But I am looking as to the reason why things in this world are so dark and why God is seemingly powerless to prevent evil things from happening. But if we as humans are veiled then it means we live in a world that blinds us to the truth and power of God, therefore His power is unable to change things, unless we have faith to believe in Him and go beyond what our senses are telling us, to open the door for the supernatural to enter our veiled world.

:2c:

[eaglesway]

I think the "sown a natural body" refers to our present state, as opposed to "raised" being the state in the resurrection.

[Beloved Servant]

The contrast between the heavenly man and the earthly man by Lloyd Ellefson in his publication THE GOOD SEED:

"Before we can get there, we have to pass through both the created Man (who is... the spiritual man) and the formed man (who is the carnal or earthly man).
We have two men, and the one in Genesis One we say is created, and the one in Genesis Two as formed out of the dust of the earth. In Genesis 2:5 we read that God had no man to till (or to work, serve, cultivate) the ground. Yet in Genesis One God had already created man. That is the first difference.

The first man was not made to work the soil; he was a heavenly man.
The second man is formed out of the ground, to work the ground, to be earthly, or to produce an earthly concept of God which is not a correct image, but only a temporary image that will eventually be done away with.

In Genesis One, he was created as an image.
In Genesis Two he was not created as an image. He was formed out of the creation or out of the dust of the earth. It does not say that about the first man."




A few more of the differences between these two men:

The first man was created from the Word of God; the second man was formed out of the existing creation.
Since the first man was created in the image of God, he must be spiritual.
The second man was from the dust of the earth, earthy. God breathed into him, and he became a living soul (i.e. he became aware).
The same word is used for the beasts of the field, but it is not said of plants.
The first man was created male and female, and not divided.
The second man was also created together, but was later divided.

[sheila]

         Yet,before the twins were born,or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand,not by works

  but by Him that calls, she was told. The older will serve the younger,Just as it is written,'Jacob I loved but Esau I hated"

    It will happen in the very place where it was said to them'YOU ARE not my people"...they will be called sons of the living God

[Beloved Servant]

Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.
Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord giving thanks always for all things, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the God and Father.

[Molly]

II Corinthians 4:18, "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

[Beloved Servant]

Then said God, Call his name Loammi.

[micah7:9]

         Yet,before the twins were born,or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand,not by works

  but by Him that calls, she was told. The older will serve the younger,Just as it is written,'Jacob I loved but Esau I hated"

    It will happen in the very place where it was said to them'YOU ARE not my people"...they will be called sons of the living God

Heb 2:7 Thou didst make him some little less than messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands,(YLT)
Heb 2:7 Thou hast made him, for a while, lower than angels; With glory and honour thou hast crowned him; Thou hast set him over all that thy hands have made;(
1904 Ernest Malan)
Heb 2:7 Thou didst humiliate him somewhat comparatively with the angels; thou didst crown him with glory and honor;(1902 William Godbey)
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little less than angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor; and didst set him over the works of Thy hands;(1904 Adolphus Worrel)
Heb 2:7 Thou hast made him only a little inferior to the angels; with glory and honour Thou hast crowned him, and hast set him to govern the works of Thy hands.(Weymouth)
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands!(1923

I would have you all noticed that, "man was not 'lowered' he was made "lower;"  God is Spirit, God is Spirit, God is Spirit.
Made, means something was not there and now it is. Thats the meaning of made. Should we be SPIRIT first there would be NO NEED for us to be MADE for we already were. Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Molly]

Micah, take a look at Heb 2:9.   It uses the same Greek words.

[micah7:9]

Micah, take a look at Heb 2:9.   It uses the same Greek words.

Yes, I agree.... Heb 2:7  Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

They were "made" short or less, Jesus was made a human being.... lowered, man was moulded, formed, made a human being out of the dust of the ground.

[eaglesway]

 IMO, there was only one creation in Genesis. Chapter two simply re states in more detail the specifics of the sixth day, concerning the creation of man, and his placement in the garden. Notice in the narration it says

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
(Gen 2:5)

This pattern of stepping back in the narration to present the specifics of a particular aspect of a narration is my no means unusual. There was no man to till the ground because God had not created him in this reference, which is a look back at the specifics presented as a general outline in chapter one.

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
(Gen 2:6-10)

The first man Adam, is the man we are in until we are in Christ. The only two men are Adam and Christ. The two "alls" are- as in Adam all die so also in Christ all will be made alive. Jesus, again, IMO, as the unique son of God - Creator(alpha) and Reconcilor(omega) is the one who was "made a little while lower than the angels"- as in Phillippians, "taking on the form(morphe) of a servant, becoming obedient to the point of death on a cross"(lowered) therefore God has given Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow....."(raised). It is not my desire to be contentious at all, I just believe the views being presented are not so clear and certainly not authoritative(including mine as well perhaps). I have studied this long hours (which only means I am not shooting from the hip) have read Eby (whom I respect, but on this respectfully disagree), and I am not convinced. Altho we are also a little while lower than the angels, I think it is because we are born in the first man- Adam. He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith.

[Molly]

Altho we are also a little while lower than the angels, I think it is because we are born in the first man- Adam. He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith.

So you are saying Adam was lowered?

Eaglesway, take a look at the different sequence in events, in how things are created in Gen 1 and Gen 2.   In Gen 1, man is made last.  In Gen 2, Man is made first.

[micah7:9]

Altho we are also a little while lower than the angels, I think it is because we are born in the first man- Adam. He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith.

So you are saying Adam was lowered?

Eaglesway, take a look at the different sequence in events, in how things are created in Gen 1 and Gen 2.   In Gen 1, man is made last.  In Gen 2, Man is made first.

"So you are saying Adam was lowered?"

No, not if you read what he wrote.

[Molly]

Altho we are also a little while lower than the angels, I think it is because we are born in the first man- Adam. He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith.

So you are saying Adam was lowered?

Eaglesway, take a look at the different sequence in events, in how things are created in Gen 1 and Gen 2.   In Gen 1, man is made last.  In Gen 2, Man is made first.

"So you are saying Adam was lowered?"

No, not if you read what he wrote.

I did read it.

He said:

"He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith."

That sounds like 'lowered' to me.

[eaglesway]

Hi Molly
In Gen 2 Adam was not made first as I read it. I read gen 2 as a more specific detail presented concerning Gen 1, 6th day. As I said, it says "There was NO MAN t till the ground. IMO that is because Adam was not created yet, it is a highlighted perspective on the sixth day.... Like this


if I describe the general timeline of a construction project in the first chapter of a book. Then in the second chapter, I alude to specific details about that foundation I did not reference in the general outline as a transition to the subject I am now explaining in detail.

I also think it is quite possible that Adam was not lower than the angels till he "fell"/ was lowered because he "ate" from the tree of KOGAE(knowledge of good and evil :o) Jesus, being born of a woman, born under law, born into fallen mortal flesh was thus "lowered" into commonality with our estate so that he could redeem us from it, tasting death for every man.

[eaglesway]

I don't have any problem with lowered as the result of sin in the garden. I have a problem with lowered from some pre-existent state as sentient spirits- but as I said before, I could be wrong- I am just not presently seeing any convincing presentations out of the word to change my view.