KJVLuk 15:8-9 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
KJVLuk 15:4-6 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
KJVLuk 15:11-32 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
.....
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
KJVMat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
622 avpo,llumi apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning: 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose
684 avpw,leia apoleia {ap-o'-li-a}
Meaning: 1) destroying, utter destruction 1a) of vessels 2) a perishing, ruin, destruction 2a) of money 2b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
Two verses with a different translation of the same word. The meaning of the word according to Strong's is also very similar.
I would say the meaning should be exactly the same.
The coin parable is clear. The coin was lost. Obiviously it was not destroyed otherwise the women couldn't have found it. The coin wasn't even damaged because that would have made it useless and the woman won't have rejoced of something of no value.
Would the shepard be happy if his sheep was destroyed (eaten by wolves)?
How can a destroyed prodical son return?
Considering that doesn't Mat 7:13 simply teach that many will get lost because it's very easy to get lost?
Lost prodical son. Lost coin. Lost sheep. And... lost people
The first 3 are found within a few verses. Why should we then assume those in Matthew are suffering forever?
Agreed :thumbsup:. I like these points.
I wonder how the coin, sheep and son parable can be ETified.
Coin.
=> The coin has no will to get lost or get found.
=> The coin isn't even aware it's lost.
=> No action of the coin is required. The coin is found (dragged) by the lady
=> Reason for celebration.
Sheep.
=> It's always the shepherd that's blamed when a sheep is lost.
=> It's the shepherd that starts to seek the sheep. No the other way around.
=> The shepherd doesn't punish the sheep. No he even carries (drags) the sheep to the flock.
Prodical son:
=> The son did rebel and did things agains his father's advise and will.
=> He experience a rough time and figured the ways of his father are not that bad afterall.
=> He returns and it's party time.
Toughts:
=> The wide road parable can't be explained in such a simplistic way but it can't contradict the other 3.
=> Coin and sheep are actively searched for. Elect?
=> What if the son would have died before got home?
==> No chances after death according to ET and ED.
===> The father actually states his son was dead and came back alive...
Unware, helpless or rebelion... all eventually are welcomed with great joy.
Coin=Sheep=Prodical son=We
Lady=Shepherd=Father of prodical son=God/Jesus
I'm missing wrath and lava.... :btantrum:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 10:30:06 PM
Two verses with a different translation of the same word ... Why should we then assume those in Matthew are suffering forever?
In the spirit of iron sharpening iron ... or to play devil's advocate if you prefer ... :bigGrin:
Consider this (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8432.0) thread. The same word in the same quote by Jesus, meant to contrast one another, is translated differently by US believers. :dontknow:
Just provoking my brother to ponderance as you provoke me to do the same! :thumbsup:
Quote from: LS on August 10, 2010, 07:58:06 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2010, 10:30:06 PM
Two verses with a different translation of the same word ... Why should we then assume those in Matthew are suffering forever?
In the spirit of iron sharpening iron ... or to play devil's advocate if you prefer ... :bigGrin:
I need an advocate for my upcoming Supreme Court appointment... :winkgrin:
QuoteConsider this (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8432.0) thread. The same word in the same quote by Jesus, meant to contrast one another, is translated differently by US believers. :dontknow:
Just provoking my brother to ponderance as you provoke me to do the same! :thumbsup:
Steve is to smart to be funny :boyheart: :girlheart:
Ahum, Steve! Are you a lawyer? :laughing7:
Sheep.
=> It's always the shepherd that's blamed when a sheep is lost.
=> It's the shepherd that starts to seek the sheep. No the other way around.
=> The shepherd doesn't punish the sheep. No he even carries (drags) the sheep to the flock.
Just thought I'd be a bother or perhaps even a brother and say that Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice and follow me"
In combination with "Behold I knock on the door, if any man will I will sup with him"
Then we can see that first God seeks us, then we respond to that calling.
Sheep are nervous animals that run away for about everything. Except a voice they know.
They will follow again when they hear the voice. => Religion=Re-Connect
"Then we can see that first God seeks us, then we respond to that calling."
That's a much better view than teh view that only the 5% elect sheep are searched for.
Imagine a shepherd that after a few hours searching found his sheep.
He calls from a distance and all he gets is usual dumb sheep stare. (knocks on the door)
Then the sheperd just returns to his flock without that sheep?
A human shepherd doesn't give up that easlily.
What about a devine Shepherd....?
The coin parable is clear. The coin was lost. Obiviously it was not destroyed otherwise the women could have found it. The coin wasn't even damaged because that would have made it useless and the woman won't have rejoced of something of no value.
Would the shepard be happy if his sheep was destroyed (eaten by wolves)?
How can a destroyed son return?
Considering that doesn't Mat 7:13 simply teach that many will get lost because it's very easy to get lost?
Lost prodical son. Lost coin. Lost sheep. And... lost people
The first 3 are found within a few verses. Why should we then assume those in Matthew are suffering forever
I always took the coin passage to be speaking about Christ's desire to have all become believers, repent and turn from sin. I always felt it spoke of his deep love and his deep desire to for all to be saved. I'm not sure it indicates that all are indeed saved. But, this passage I will certainly pray on. I feel there is something for me here. It does shed light on his love for us. ET guys/gals would want us to believe that Jesus who loves us this deeply would then torture these same lost sheep for eternity in fire? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Old song my mom used to sing;
One Lost Sheep
Safe were the ninety and nine in the fold.
Safe though the night was stormy and cold;
But said the Shepherd when counting them o'er,
"One sheep is missing, there should be one more."
Chorus:
The Shepherd went out to search for His sheep,
And all through the night on the cold, rocky steep
He searched till He found him,
With love bands He bound him,
And I was that one lost sheep.
Although His feet were weary and worn,
And though His hands were rent and torn,
Although the road was rocky and steep,
Still the Good Shepherd searched long for his sheep.
There in the night He heard a faint cry
From the lost sheep just ready to die.
Then in His arms to shield from the cold
He brought the lost sheep back safe to the fold.
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 09:38:17 AMI always took the coin passage to be speaking about Christ's desire to have all become believers, repent and turn from sin.
That's the strongest part of the coin parable. Coins have no brains, desires, and will. There was a zero possibility the coin would repent and come to the truth -> crawl back in her wallet.
So for me that simply refutes the idea that we (coins) can only be saved if we actively search salvation (wallet).
Quote from: jabcat on August 11, 2010, 09:41:00 AMOld song my mom used to sing;
Weird, considering old songs come from ET times...
I guess for ETs the song means 1 sheep was saved and the ones in the fold were eaten by wolves.
Shawn,
Some alternative views on parables.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm
http://www.musicbysunset.com/Parables.html
http://www.biblemeanings.info/Parables_Jesus.html
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 11, 2010, 10:16:48 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 11, 2010, 09:41:00 AMOld song my mom used to sing;
Weird, considering old songs come from ET times...
I guess for ETs the song means 1 sheep was saved and the ones in the fold were eaten by wolves.
LOL! I hate when that happens! :laughing7:
Or maybe it means only 100 sheep will be saved. No, he means the whole fold will be saved by the Shepherd.
Maybe just that fold? No there are others, too.
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 11, 2010, 10:59:25 AM
Shawn,
Some alternative views on parables.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm
http://www.musicbysunset.com/Parables.html
http://www.biblemeanings.info/Parables_Jesus.html
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm
After reading the first parable explanation I had a light bulb moment. I think it's possible that I have made some faulty assumptions about the Bible. If parables were spoken so that seeing they may not see...hearing yet not hear then was the Bible written so they could be reading yet not read?
I also read this verse differently for the first time in my life.
ROMANS 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins."
How could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah? I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time. God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.
Quote from: Molly on August 11, 2010, 01:15:33 PMOr maybe it means only 100 sheep will be saved. No, he means the whole fold will be saved by the Shepherd.
The shepherd who saved his whole fold was just a poor shepherd with 100 sheep.
However there is a Shepherd who got all sheep given in His hands from a Farmer who owns of billions of sheep.
WWJoh 3:35 5 The Farmer loveth the Shepherd, and hath given all sheep into his hand.
Signed,
A goat.
Quote from: ShawnGod had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?
Yes.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. --Rom 11
"concluded"G4788
συγκλείω
sugkleiōsoong-kli'-o
From G4862 and G2808;
to shut together, that is,
include or (figuratively)
embrace in a common subjection to: - conclude,
inclose, shut up.
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 01:56:58 PMAfter reading the first parable explanation I had a light bulb moment.
Yeah, sometimes I discover something so obvious that I'm almost ashamed I didn't see it long ago...
QuoteI think it's possible that I have made some faulty assumptions about the Bible. If parables were spoken so that seeing they may not see...hearing yet not hear then was the Bible written so they could be reading yet not read?
You edited your message; I think there was a bit more in this paragraph. Anyway I have no clue why things are hidden. But not as a trick so 95% of humanity can be judged to hell. Because:
KJV1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
If God really wants the above the permanent hardening, deafing and blinding is very counter productive...
(Unless all=some which I don't believe)
QuoteHow could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah? I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time. God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.
He hardened, made deaf and made blind....
In another thread there was a discussion about God hardening pharao's heart. TheoBook has a view that God didn't harden pharao's heart but pharao's hated God/Jews so much his heart turned to stone. Dunno if I relly agree but it certainly is view to be considered and can possibly applied to deaf/blind?
IMO it also has to do with the Elect. I believe that there is an elect in the Bible (those
not blind, deaf, hardened).
But that elect is not about eternity is heaven or hell
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 11, 2010, 02:54:36 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 01:56:58 PMAfter reading the first parable explanation I had a light bulb moment.
Yeah, sometimes I discover something so obvious that I'm almost ashamed I didn't see is long ago...
QuoteI think it's possible that I have made some faulty assumptions about the Bible. If parables were spoken so that seeing they may not see...hearing yet not hear then was the Bible written so they could be reading yet not read?
You edited your message; I think there was a bit more in this paragraph. Anyway I have no clue why things are hidden. But not as a trick so 95% of humanity can be judged to hell. Because:
KJV1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
If God really wants the above the permanent hardening, deafing and blinding is very counter productive...
(Unless all=some which I don't believe)
QuoteHow could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah? I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time. God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.
He hardened, made deaf and made blind....
In another thread there was a discussion about God hardening pharao's heart. TheoBook has a view that God didn't harden pharao's heart but pharao's hated God/Jews so much his heart turned to stone. Dunno if I relly agree but it certainly is view to be considered and can possibly applied to deaf/blind?
IMO it also has to do with the Elect. I believe that there is an elect in the Bible (those not blind, deaf, hardened).
But that elect is not about eternity is heaven or hell
You hit the nail on the head about how I felt when I read that passage. I was embarassed that it was right there all along and I hadn't seen it. And yes, there was some additional portion to that post which God then answered for me shortly after I wrote it.
What if the Jews had all accepted Jesus as the Messiah? It's like God took the football away from the Jews and tossed it to the Gentiles. But, what if he hadn't? How would things be different?
God started this with the Gentile, Abram, with whom he made the covenant--
You will be the father of many nations.
--Gen 17:4
"nations"
H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
And He concluded it with Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
--Rom 11
When it comes to the sheep and the coin parable I don't think Christ had all the world in mind.
But only thought about his sheep. Here's why
One. He said to the Pharisses you are not of my sheep.
Two. In Mathew he seperates the sheep from the goats.
Three he calls some teachers sheep in wolves clothing.
So using these parables to teach universal salvation is unfruitful.
For there is also the parable of the wheat and the tare.
So there is a distinction between goodies and baddies. The baddies don't follow Christ but the sheep the goodies do.
Also Jesus did not say, you are goat and will allways be a goat, he simply said, those who recognize his voice are his sheep and if any man will, follow me.
Quote from: thinktank on August 12, 2010, 12:27:31 AM
When it comes to the sheep and the coin parable I don't think Christ had all the world in mind.
But only thought about his sheep. Here's why
One. He said to the Pharisses you are not of my sheep.
KJVJoh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
QuoteTwo. In Mathew he seperates the sheep from the goats.
But what's wrong with goats? I often see goats pictured as evil (satan as half goat for example). But goats are used for sacrifice just as sheep. So they can't be that bad...
KJVLev 3:12 And if his offering be a goat, then he shall offer it before the LORD.
QuoteThree he calls some teachers sheep in wolves clothing.
I have no answer for that. Maybe more seasoned member can answer that one...
QuoteSo using these parables to teach universal salvation is unfruitful.
I disagree. (see John 10:16)
QuoteFor there is also the parable of the wheat and the tare.
Everybody is wheat and tare. Wheat=tar+kernel/seeds.
Just like gold ore is pure gold + dross (refiners fire)
So I think the wheat and tare parable isn't about 2 groups of people but about 2 parts of 1 person.
QuoteSo there is a distinction between goodies and baddies. The baddies don't follow Christ but the sheep the goodies do.
Jesus disagrees. John 10:16.... 1 fold, 1 shepherd
QuoteAlso Jesus did not say, you are goat and will allways be a goat, he simply said, those who recognize his voice are his sheep and if any man will, follow me
John 10:16...again :winkgrin:
The sheep of the evil fold only hear recognize/follow the voice of the evil sheperd. But still Jesus claims those (formerly) evil sheep will join His fold.
So yes, I think all parable teach UR. (whole Bible does)
Just speaking for myself here: For me UR isn't about that everyone instantly is added to the fold of holy sheep. Bad things will happen to evil sheep. UR for me is that eventually, somehow, the evil sheep turn holy and join the holy flock.
You might answer: Ok all sheep are saved. But what about wolves?
I think there are 2 sheperds on earth. Jesus and Satan (for simplicity let's agree they are both persons)
So there are also 2 flocks. So Jesus basicly steals everything from the other flock.
Futher I think there are only sheep. The wolves are just a name for bad sheep.
KJVJoh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
I understand that as whole creation. Not just sheep who are just a fraction of creation.
:2c:
I do not see the adversary as a shepard, at all, Im sorry.
Thinktank, I consider your answers, questions, and rebutals somewhat challenging, should I desire to be in circle of minds of those discussing the things of the world and how they came about. The Bible has substance and that substance is faith, faith built on the Spirit and should one lack the faith of the Spirit then maybe man did walk out of the sea and start a game of pinochle.
Not to offend, but God is Love.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 01:56:58 PM
How could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah? I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time. God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.
Hi Shawn - I believe that "Israel" is (and always has been) believers. So all Israel
will be saved - ie: all believers will be saved.
Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed.
For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "Through Isaac your descendants will be named."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Galatians 3
6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is
those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Galatians 3
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
The word for "lost," as in "lost coin," does get translated elsewhere as "destroyed." Jesus came to seek and save what was destroyed.
Of those three parables, the first is about the father (that lost a son,) the last about the Son (the good and great shepherd.) The middle parable is about the woman ruah, pneuma (who seeks a ruined coin.)This is the family in the heavens.
"God has locked all together in stubbornness that He might be being merciful to all." (Romans 11:32; derived from CLT)
"And they shall be...one Shepherd!" Those in His image and likeness will have dominion.
Revelation (Unveiling) 5:9-10; Concordant Literal Translation...
9 And they are singing a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to be taking the scroll and to open its seals, For Thou wast slain and dost buy us for God by Thy blood. Out of every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 Thou dost also make them a kingdom and a priesthood for our God, And they shall be reigning on the earth."
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2010, 03:53:31 AMI do not see the adversary as a shepard, at all, Im sorry.
Why not? I'm wondering why you picked the most insignificant part of the whole thread and only answer that :dontknow:
Quote from: reFORMer on August 12, 2010, 08:29:22 AMThe word for "lost," as in "lost coin," does get translated elsewhere as "destroyed." Jesus came to seek and save what was destroyed.
....
The middle parable is about the woman ruah, pneuma (who seeks a ruined coin.)This is the family in the heavens.
ruah, pneuma? Can't find that in the parable.
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 06:56:32 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 11, 2010, 01:56:58 PM
How could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah? I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time. God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.
Hi Shawn - I believe that "Israel" is (and always has been) believers. So all Israel will be saved - ie: all believers will be saved.
Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "Through Isaac your descendants will be named."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Galatians 3
6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Galatians 3
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
I do understand your point. But, in the following passage it appears to me that Israel and the Gentiles are being spoken of seperately here.
ROMANS 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (NKJV)
The highlighted verse supports that the verse is speaking of two seperate peoples. And the verse goes on to say after speaking of both Gentiles and Israel that God will have mercy on all. If Israel represents the body of believers the verses do not make sense to me.
Quote from: shawn on August 12, 2010, 10:47:48 AM
I do understand your point. But, in the following passage it appears to me that Israel and the Gentiles are being spoken of seperately here.
ROMANS 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (NKJV)
The highlighted verse supports that the verse is speaking of two seperate peoples. And the verse goes on to say after speaking of both Gentiles and Israel that God will have mercy on all. If Israel represents the body of believers the verses do not make sense to me.
Honestly, I think this entire chapter of Romans is telling us that neither jew nor gentiles are "above" or "beneath" the other - they are all now on equal footing. Look at the passages earlier in the chapter about cutting off and grafting in. I think the passage you quoted is simply saying that the jews are no long "specially protected" as they once were, but are now part of the world, which is subject to "the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." (Ephesians 2:2) That passage is what comes to my mind when reading about the disobedient.
I don't know - the realization that "Israel" is believers is a conviction that the LORD gave to me and on that I have no doubt. But I'm less firm on some of the rest of this - I see UR believers using this passage to support their position, but fundamentalists who believe in the rapture also use it for an almost opposite purpose. I find myself reading them with a bit of a spirit of opposition to either of those views, though I'm honestly trying to simply be open and see what Truth is in them, and let the Holy Spirit use it to shape what I believe.
I keep coming back to this: Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." and it seems to me that all of chapter 11, including the verses you quoted, are supporting that statement.
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 06:19:25 PMI keep coming back to this: Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." and it seems to me that all of chapter 11, including the verses you quoted, are supporting that statement.
What exactly does that verse say?
a] Jews and Greeks are equal and treated equally.
b] Jews and Greeks are not equal but God's grace still is enough for all of them.
So if they are not equal then:
KJVRom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 06:56:32 AM
Hi Shawn - I believe that "Israel" is (and always has been) believers. So all Israel will be saved - ie: all believers will be saved.
If that's the case, wouldn't it say "all Israel IS saved"?
EVERY knee will bow, every tongue confess Jesus is Lord...
Quote from: jabcat on August 12, 2010, 07:57:19 PM
Quote from: LS on August 12, 2010, 06:56:32 AM
Hi Shawn - I believe that "Israel" is (and always has been) believers. So all Israel will be saved - ie: all believers will be saved.
If that's the case, wouldn't it say "all Israel IS saved"?
Dunno James. All I can say is that I miss aorist tense symbols in my Bible. It could very well be true both of you are right.
Check this out in the Christian Bible;
IMO, this is obviously talking about natural literal Israel - the nation; and notice what happens to their sins/wrongdoing/final destiny;
For I don't want you to be ignorant, brothers and sisters, about this secret, so that you might not consider yourselves as intelligent, that a partial callouseness has come upon Israel until the full number of the pagan nations has entered. So in this way all Israel will be saved, just as it has been written, "the Rescuer will arrive from Zion. He will turn away the lack of devotion from Jacob. Now this is My Contract with them, when I remove their wrongdoings". Romans 11:25-27
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 08:43:03 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 12, 2010, 03:53:31 AMI do not see the adversary as a shepard, at all, Im sorry.
Why not? I'm wondering why you picked the most insignificant part of the whole thread and only answer that :dontknow:
It shouted.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2010, 09:28:23 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on August 12, 2010, 08:29:22 AMThe word for "lost," as in "lost coin," does get translated elsewhere as "destroyed." Jesus came to seek and save what was destroyed.
....
The middle parable is about the woman ruah, pneuma (who seeks a ruined coin.)This is the family in the heavens.
ruah, pneuma? Can't find that in the parable.
1st parable: Father
2nd parable: Woman
3rd parable: Son
The word for "spirit" in both original languages, Hebrew
ruah and Greek
pneuma, the gender is feminine. As the woman was seeking, so also"...the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God." (1 Co 2
10; Concordant Literal Translation) If we have a father and son, we need a mother to complete the family.
"...the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, after Whom every kindred in the heavens and on earth is being named..." (Ep 3
14-15; Concordant Literal Translation) "Kindred" in the AV is rendered, "family."
I was searching those parables for pneuma...
So:
Father = Father-God
Sheperd = Son/Jesus
Woman = HS
Never thought of that.
Waiting
Helping (seeking)
Seeking
?
could be true even though Jesus calls holy spirit "he" maybe he just means that he has a personality even though the holy spirit could be woman/mother/feminine.
Quote from: thinktank on August 13, 2010, 07:40:52 PMcould be true even though Jesus calls holy spirit "he"
I think HS is an It...
I'll try to dig up some (Greek) proof for that.
/EDIT
We already spoke about it HERE (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8280.msg99165#msg99165)
Not that it really matters because neither he or it are she :winkgrin:
Biblical Greek, Koine, just has one pronoun, it's genderless: AUTO which means "the same" and it refers to the immediately preceding noun.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 07:46:09 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 13, 2010, 07:40:52 PMcould be true even though Jesus calls holy spirit "he"
I think HS is an It...
I'll try to dig up some (Greek) proof for that.
/EDIT
We already spoke about it HERE (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8280.msg99165#msg99165)
Not that it really matters because neither he or it are she :winkgrin:
We only discussed one verse though, there are other verses where Jesus call the spirit, "he".
To me if the spirit is not a personality, then how can God be in us, we'd be no different than say Adam and Eve if the holyspirit, is just power of God. God said whos temple are ye, we are the temple of God.
If the holyspirit be not a personality how can Christ be in us? For these three are one, but without the spirit, then we are without Christ and if without Christ without hope and our faith is in vain.
In the most literal translation I own HS is always called "it". Not claiming I remember all verses but I can tell you I'm speaking about more than just a few verses.
It would be sloppy work of the translators to translate "it" 5 times in one verse and all other verses He.
It's :lazy: :snor: time for me. Perhaps James can give you a few verses.
Some preachers have made an issue over the masculine pronoun "He" used by English versions. They're all het up over the three "Persons" thing. God's no "it." (I just think they are too limiting.) But, in New Testament Greek there is just one, all purpose and genderless pronoun for everything.
This in no way whatsoever should be used to commend The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ which says, "Howbeit, when the spirit of Truth is come, she shall lead you into all Truth that you may know all things." Please. No. Just no.
(John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, so that every man who believes in him would not perish, but have eternal life.
Perish=Lost=Apollumi
Jesus came to restore lost things. Why is lost also translated as destroyed?
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67
With a bit of selective reading :winkgrin: we see that the meaning is either lost or some sort of destruction that makes something lost.
(Matt 8:25) And the disciples having approached, they awoke him, saying, Save us, Lord, we are perishing.
(Matt 8:26) And he says to them, Why are ye cowardly, O ye of little faith? Then after rising, he rebuked the winds and the sea, and there became a great calm.
Perish=Lost=Perish=Apollumi
They weren't afraid they got lost in the sense of no longer being able to find their way to the shore. Neither was their fear their bodies would be damaged/completly destroyed.
They simply were afraid to die. Losing their lives. Dying is losing life.
ὄλεθρος
olethros
Thayer Definition:
1) ruin, destroy, death
1a) for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from a primary ollumi (to destroy, a prolonged form)
Citing in TDNT: 5:168, 681
Alternative redering here: http://concordances.org/greek/3639.htm
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
(Luke 19:10) For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.
and he that build withwood hay stubble will suffer loss..but will be saved as through fire= God will burn up misconception and declare truth/correction