lone universalist in a Catholic forum

[sven]

I came across this thread by chance:

http://forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51102

it was pretty interesting to read for me,

I realized that the arguments against UR are pretty weak

- it's ridiculous to claim that Jesus said more about hell than about heaven

- it's illogical that free will demands eternal hell

- they misrepresent church history

- they seem to defame "sects" they have persecuted and slaughtered, and I believe they would slaughter "heretics" if they could even nowadays

what's your impression?

[WhiteWings]

Standard drivel.
A least they stay polite. Well at least a few posts :icon_jokercolor:

Why would anyone believe that a God who loves us would force Himself on us against our will? He gives us freedom, even to the point of rejecting Him.

A could agree with that. But of course rejecting means choosing hell.
Free will (if it exists) can surely reject God. But they don't choose torture instead of God.
They would for example chose a life exactly like the one they have now.
Giving free will doesn't mean 2 choices.

Perhaps Hell is the fire they need lit under their rears to bring them to repentance and conversion.

And what if they repent afer a year, month or even an hour? Can their free will get tehm out of hell. After all God acts according the free will of man and likes men to be in heaven. Sounds a win win situation getting a repenter out of hell.

What follows is just: It's not Catholic so it's heresy. No discussion.

[Universalist Catholic]

This article was based solely on the Catholic Churches biases.  First it assumes the Catholic Church was always there, and those sects broke from them.  Any good historian will tell you otherwise, that is they are not biased.  Plus they use that whole "Free will" argument.  Whether or not free will is real, Gods will is supreme, and no one is going to freely choose to endure torture for all eternity.  Plus they are under the premise that the church cannot error.  Well they were wrong about St. Peter being the first pope. 

[shawn]

Standard drivel.
A least they stay polite. Well at least a few posts :icon_jokercolor:

Why would anyone believe that a God who loves us would force Himself on us against our will? He gives us freedom, even to the point of rejecting Him.

A could agree with that. But of course rejecting means choosing hell.
Free will (if it exists) can surely reject God. But they don't choose torture instead of God.
They would for example chose a life exactly like the one they have now.
Giving free will doesn't mean 2 choices.

Perhaps Hell is the fire they need lit under their rears to bring them to repentance and conversion.

And what if they repent afer a year, month or even an hour? Can their free will get tehm out of hell. After all God acts according the free will of man and likes men to be in heaven. Sounds a win win situation getting a repenter out of hell.

What follows is just: It's not Catholic so it's heresy. No discussion.

Very nice...good responses.   :bigGrin:

[Aleax]

what's your impression?

Well it's been argued RCC is the Babylon of Revelation.

"Come out of her my people".

[Universalist Catholic]

what's your impression?

Well it's been argued RCC is the Babylon of Revelation.

"Come out of her my people".

I thinks thats talking about the whole church system, be it jew, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist,

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, I agree. Babylon is a spiritual stronghold, a mindset of confusion and idolatry caused by the carnal mind's of men. The RCC is just the easiest "target" to "see". Blessings....

[Quaesitor]

:cloud9: Yes, I agree. Babylon is a spiritual stronghold, a mindset of confusion and idolatry caused by the carnal mind's of men. The RCC is just the easiest "target" to "see". Blessings....

I agree, Babylon is a mindset, a bondage.
A religious bondage.
:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: Yes, I agree. Babylon is a spiritual stronghold, a mindset of confusion and idolatry caused by the carnal mind's of men. The RCC is just the easiest "target" to "see". Blessings....

:thumbsup:

[thinktank]

I think people are confused when they say, they choose to go to hell. What fool chooses hell

People don't even know hell exists so how can they choose to go to a place that they don't know exists.

People choose to reject God, but they don't choose to go to hell. There is a big difference.

[Quaesitor]

I'd like to see even ONE man, be him blind or deaf or both or even with an intellect handicap, or powerfull or rich beyond measure who has such a power as to reject God if God reveals Himself to that man/woman.

The fact is this creature doesn't exist and never will.
:happy3:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Exactly....

[thinktank]

I'd like to see even ONE man, be him blind or deaf or both or even with an intellect handicap, or powerfull or rich beyond measure who has such a power as to reject God if God reveals Himself to that man/woman.

The fact is this creature doesn't exist and never will.
:happy3:

I'm affraid they do, the book of revelation testifies that the beast and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire against their will, so whatever happens to them, which is still a mystery to me, then it means they did not choose God but rejected him.

[LS]

I'd like to see even ONE man, be him blind or deaf or both or even with an intellect handicap, or powerfull or rich beyond measure who has such a power as to reject God if God reveals Himself to that man/woman.

The fact is this creature doesn't exist and never will.
:happy3:

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

As hard as it is for those of us who love Him to imagine ... it's been done and I believe it will be done by some of mankind.

[Quaesitor]

Both of these answers are based on personnal interpretations of what these so-named beings are.

[thinktank]

Both of these answers are based on personnal interpretations of what these so-named beings are.

I'm not sure what your personal beliefs are but if your a Ur beliver then it means people will be thrown into the lake of fire without choice, because they rejected God. Of course there are other interpretations, but this is what Garry from tentmaker belives.

so if you belive that people get thrown in to the fire then that means they rejected God, I don't think they would volunteer to jump in.  :2c:

[Quaesitor]

It goes again into the interpretation realm be it from Gary.

God revealed Himself unto me and I still need refining and judgement to be worked on my carnal nature everyday.
I have to bring that flesh to the cross like Christ did.

That refining is the work of the Holy spirit, it is the baptism of fire.

It has nothing to do with rejecting God but everything to do with sanctification.

[thinktank]

It goes again into the interpretation realm be it from Gary.

God revealed Himself unto me and I still need refining and judgement to be worked on my carnal nature everyday.
I have to bring that flesh to the cross like Christ did.

That refining is the work of the Holy spirit, it is the baptism of fire.

It has nothing to do with rejecting God but everything to do with sanctification.

But what happens to them who die without God, from your viewpoint?

[Quaesitor]

Everyone has to go through judgement.
Be it in this life or the next.

What make us think we're so special?
It is by grace we've been saved not by our own merits, it is God's work in me that is leading me through sanctification.

It is God's purpose that I'm going through sanctification now and not in the next life.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: This "final judgment" phrase has, IMO, contributed to much confusion. We are judged everyday by the words that come out of our mouths, and in the hereafter at death, by the FRUIT of what we spoke into existance in that soulish realm that recreates the nature of the "breath" that was spoken.

This "judgment" continues on in the lake of fire, inotherwords, until no vestige of rebellious, unrepentant flesh is left and every knee bows confessing He is Lord over them, ie. nothing left standing in His presence.

He said He would never leave us nor forsake us. At what point did NEVER have a stop/start? Even David said, though I make my bed IN HELL, YOU ARE THERE. He IS the refiner's fire, He IS the fuller making our garments white as snow.

To be plain, He's in every one that draws a breath, gauging PERFECTLY what is needed to be ministered to WHOEVER we come in contact with, either judgment or blessing.

In a great man's house (the house of God is a lineage too, not only a dwelling place) there are vessels of honor AND vessels of dishonor. It's up to Him which of us stand or fall, and shock of all shocks, it's all the same to Him because HE'S THE ONE DOING IT ALL. That's really the core of UR, whether any realize it or not.

What? Don't think you are ever used to bring judgment? Then you're out of balance, not honoring your father. Don't bring blessing or mercy? Then you're out of balance, not honoring your mother. And He HATES an unjust BALANCE.

We are being trained to walk in the Spirit, free from judgments being based on the flesh, including the flesh that rules thru emotions that are not His. This "detachment" is necessary so our emotions can't supercede and rule over His Spirit, as they have since we drew a breath. Everything that can be shaken is being shaken, and will continue until He is all in all OF US, not just all in all of all people "out there". My  :2c: Blessings....

[thinktank]

Everyone has to go through judgement.
Be it in this life or the next.

What make us think we're so special?
It is by grace we've been saved not by our own merits, it is God's work in me that is leading me through sanctification.

It is God's purpose that I'm going through sanctification now and not in the next life.

Its not about being special, it's about beliving in the scriptures that he that belives on the name of Jesus Christ shall be saved. If there is nothing to be saved from then we brush aside many of the scriptures. To me what we are saved from is the lake of fire and something else that I won't talk about right now.

[Quaesitor]

We are saved from death, from death "now" because we are in Christ as Noah was in the ark. We have life through Him.

Being saved from the lake of fire is not scriptural as it is written that everyone has to go through it only that the overcomers are not hurt by it.

The flood was a shadow of these things, Noah and his family had to go through the flood too, everything they had before the flood was destroyed but they were saved because they were in the ark.

Noah didn't avoid the flood, he had to go through it.

So we can't avoid the lake of fire, we have to live through it only we are alive because our life is in Jesus Christ!