Let there be light

[WhiteWings]

God is light but still He creates light?
Genesis 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

If darkness is the absense of light then I would expect a verse that explains the creation of darkness by removing light. Like:

2 Corinthians 4:6  For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Idea's ?

[Raggedy Anne]

"God Is".  That's why He said, "I AM".   And because 'God Is', there must be something opposed to God in order for God to be made manifest.  "We Are" (only because "He Is").  That's the way I usually deal with this topic which is mostly beyond my understanding.

Peace-
Anne

[WhiteWings]

Anne, I don't understand your answer... :laughing7:
God said "I am".
Agreed and understood.
But what is He? Is He darkness or is He light?
Light is the standard answer. But why He has to create light if it always existed?
The second verse decribes God moving around. Apperently it was still dark because the next verse He's creating light.
And many verses later in Cor. it's said God didn't really create light but created darkness by removing light.
Carefully note the shining out of darkness and into our hearts. Out and in

[Gab]

"God Is".  That's why He said, "I AM".   And because 'God Is', there must be something opposed to God in order for God to be made manifest.  "We Are" (only because "He Is").  That's the way I usually deal with this topic which is mostly beyond my understanding.

Peace-
Anne

Is the thing opposed to God "I AM NOT"?

:laughing7:

At any rate, WW, assuming you're referring to 1 John 1:5, I think it's intended to just be metaphorical, similar to the statements that God is a rock, God is a shield, et cetera.  It's providing insight into his nature, not literally saying that God is a physical cluster of photons.

[Molly]

Anne, I don't understand your answer... :laughing7:
God said "I am".
Agreed and understood.
But what is He? Is He darkness or is He light?
Light is the standard answer. But why He has to create light if it always existed?
The second verse decribes God moving around. Apperently it was still dark because the next verse He's creating light.
And many verses later in Cor. it's said God didn't really create light but created darkness by removing light.
Carefully note the shining out of darkness and into our hearts. Out and in

Curious.

I had always assumed the default state was darkness.  But what if the default state is light?  Then to get darkness, something must be obscuring the light [casting a shadow].

"darkness"
G4655
σκότος
skotos
skot'-os
From the base of G4639; shadiness, that is, obscurity (literally or figuratively): - darkness.



G4639
σκία
skia
skee'-ah
Apparently a primary word; "shade" or a shadow (literally or figuratively [darkness of error or an adumbration]): - shadow.

[WhiteWings]

Even "I am" are complex words. It can mean so many things. Including a way to decribe eternal.
But those words are not in my OP.
Agreed God is not a cluster of photons. But He does use light as a way to describe Himself.
Metaphorical agreed. But Jesus doesn't state in one verse He's a rock and quicksand in another.
All I'm trying to say is that once God picks light as as metaphorical way to describe Himself I don't expect Him to change that metaphorical description to an opposite.
And that is exactly what I read.
I can assume Gen 1:3 is about creating light in the universe as we know/see it. And not speaking about Himself etc. Fine I can live with such an explantion.
But reading 2 Corinthians 4:6 that explantion isn't so 'trusted' anymore.
It looks like a contradiction. (mods I underlined looks :winkgrin:)

[Molly]

I can assume Gen 1:3 is about creating light in the universe as we know/see it.

A lot of people think something happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 to cause tohu and bohu--without form and void.  Who creates something without form and void? 

...and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

--Gen 1:2

[Molly]

BTW, In Gen 1:3, God says, Let there be light, before he creates what we think of as sources of light--the sun, moon, and stars.

[WhiteWings]

I had always assumed the default state was darkness.  But what if the default state is light?  Then to get darkness, something must be obscuring the light [casting a shadow].

Even if light is blocked and casts a shadow it already exists. You can argue that we don't have enough light. Fine. But then the verse should be "creates more light" or "creates light besides Himself"

Genesis desribles God moving over the void earth. Some describe it as fluttering (new word for me). Some even go as far and say flutting is very closely near the surface. If God is seen as the most gigantic and pure source of (white) light then noone that watched God fluttering would say "utterly dark dark there"

But what if the default state is light?

Then God had to create darkness instead of light. IMO He did by removing the light. But that's more spiritual. But lets not go into that spiritual and carnal stuff without needing to.
Fine it's mentioned. But then not just with one verse but with both verses I mentioned in my OP.
Cor looks back at the very first part of creation. In the second half of the verse it say God puts light into hearts.
One way for me to (force) fit things is that the light in Genesis 1:3 was spiritual.
God removed all love (light) from the face of the earth and then in the second half of Cor He puts it back in own hearts.
Fine. But that directly contradicts Gen 1:3 were he clearly says He is creating light.

Likely I'm not doing a good job explaining what my point is. So I ask you to read the two verses very closely and taking not of the little words IN and OUT

[WhiteWings]

BTW, In Gen 1:3, God says, Let there be light, before he creates what we think of as sources of light--the sun, moon, and stars.

True. But as you know our sun and moon are not first generation stars.

[Molly]

Then God had to create darkness instead of light. IMO He did by removing the light. But that's more spiritual. But lets not go into that spiritual and carnal stuff without needing to.

hmm..maybe creation itself casts a shadow over God's light, by virtue of its density and 'otherness.'  I had thought about this a long time ago.  When I create something, it is no longer 'me,' although it might resemble me, and takes on a life of its own.  In other words, it's something less than me.

But then the verse should be "creates more light" or "creates light besides Himself"

Not really.  He is commanding the light to shine out of darkness [tohu and bohu] in Gen 1:3, too.

There is no source of self sustaining light created yet, in Gen 1:3.

God removed all love (light) from the face of the earth and then in the second half of Cor He puts it back in own hearts.
Fine. But that directly contradicts Gen 1:3 were he clearly says He is creating light.

It never says God removed light from anywhere.  Nor does it say He puts it back.

He commands it 'to be' or 'to shine out.'

[Gab]

Even "I am" are complex words. It can mean so many things. Including a way to decribe eternal.
But those words are not in my OP.
Agreed God is not a cluster of photons. But He does use light as a way to describe Himself.
Metaphorical agreed. But Jesus doesn't state in one verse He's a rock and quicksand in another.
All I'm trying to say is that once God picks light as as metaphorical way to describe Himself I don't expect Him to change that metaphorical description to an opposite.
And that is exactly what I read.
I can assume Gen 1:3 is about creating light in the universe as we know/see it. And not speaking about Himself etc. Fine I can live with such an explantion.
But reading 2 Corinthians 4:6 that explantion isn't so 'trusted' anymore.
It looks like a contradiction. (mods I underlined looks :winkgrin:)

I'm not sure I understand what the contradiction is.  Genesis 1:3 says that God created light, and 2 Corinthians 4:6... says that God created light.  No?

[Molly]

I was thinking recently, maybe God himself creates the shadow as he 'hovers' over his creation--El Shaddai--God as the mother hen.

In that case, the darkness would just be an illusion which we must overcome.


..and darkness was upon the face of the deep.  And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

--Gen 1:3


"moved"

H7363
רחף
râchaph
raw-khaf'
A primitive root; to brood; by implication to be relaxed: - flutter, move, shake.

[WhiteWings]

But then the verse should be "creates more light" or "creates light besides Himself"

Not really.  He is commanding the light to shine out of darkness [tohu and bohu] in Gen 1:3, too.

There is no source of self sustaining light created yet, in Gen 1:3.

When are the stars created in Genesis? In secular science long before earth itself.

It never says God removed light from anywhere.  Nor does it say He puts it back.

Maybe not putting it back. Put putting it in.

He commands it 'to be' or 'to shine out.'

"out OF"
If you go out of town. Aren't you leaving town?

[WhiteWings]

I'm not sure I understand what the contradiction is.  Genesis 1:3 says that God created light, and 2 Corinthians 4:6... says that God created light.  No?

I think the main question to answer is this:
Is there a difference between:
Shining OUT of darkness. => Gab drives his car out of town -> 1 car less in town
or
Shining INto darkness => Gab drives his car into town -> 1 extra car in town

[Molly]

When are the stars created in Genesis? In secular science long before earth itself.

Ask me if I care what those clowns have to say about the creation of the universe.  They are just making wild guesses.  Contrary to their opinion of themselves, they weren't there.  :laughing7:

He doesn't start creating the stars until Gen 1:14--but I will say, these are the stars in our firmament.

Maybe not putting it back. Put putting it in.

You say, 'putting it in.'  But if it's already there and obscured by shadow, then he is just giving the light a command 'to shine out.'

"out OF"
If you go out of town. Aren't you leaving town?

Yes, but you had to be in town to begin with for that to work

[Gab]

I think the main question to answer is this:
Is there a difference between:
Shining OUT of darkness. => Gab drives his car out of town -> 1 car less in town
or
Shining INto darkness => Gab drives his car into town -> 1 extra car in town

I don't think there would be one.  If you go into a dark place and light a lamp, then the light is shining out of darkness.  If you light a lamp and then bring it to a dark place, then the light is shining into the darkness.  The action in both cases, however, is the same: adding light to the darkness where there previously was none.

Ask me if I care what those clowns have to say about the creation of the universe.  They are just making wild guesses.  Contrary to their opinion of themselves, they weren't there.  :laughing7:

I really don't want to derail the thread, but I would really encourage you to at least earnestly learn what the assertions are that scientists make, what the evidence is that they present in their favor, and why the evidence is asserted as evidence in its favor before dismissing it.  You are free to find fault with the conclusions they've reached, but calling them "wild guesses" is... not exactly correct.

[WhiteWings]

When are the stars created in Genesis? In secular science long before earth itself.

Ask me if I care what those clowns have to say about the creation of the universe.  They are just making wild guesses.  Contrary to their opinion of themselves, they weren't there.  :laughing7:

That's your opinion. Mine is that the guesses of those clowns don't contradict Genesis.

He doesn't start creating the stars until Gen 1:14--but I will say, these are the stars in our firmament.

For me that verse is about the sun and moon. If not they are created a few verses later. But then the question is: If God created the stars and the sun in 1:14 what light He created in 1:3?

Maybe not putting it back. Put putting it in.

You say, 'putting it in.'  But if it's already there and obscured by shadow, then he is just giving the light a command 'to shine out.'

"out OF"
If you go out of town. Aren't you leaving town?

Yes, but you had to be in town to begin with for that to work

Now we are getting somewhere because earlier you wrote:

It never says God removed light from anywhere.  Nor does it say He puts it back.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Sharing this vision again........I saw light coming super fast, from my left field of vision; as it slowed, it became gradated levels of darkness beginning with grays and going to a "center" of pure black darkness. Then it started to speed up again, slowly until it reached pure light again with it's super speed.

It resembled those gradated paint chips from the paint departments, only this was Spirit and alive. As it finished He spoke to me, "You have just witnessed creation."

The "darkness" of all created matter is at it's essence nothing but "slowed down" Spirit/light, taking the form of darkness. It creates the shadow by appearing as the contrast of what it really is. This is why He quickens (means to speed up) our mortal bodies. Blessings.....

[Molly]

..but calling them "wild guesses" is... not exactly correct

yeah, it is.   :laughing7:  If they would have the graciousness to start all their papers with, 'We are just making wild guesses.  This is my best wild guess.."--I might have more respect for them.

I don't think there would be one.  If you go into a dark place and light a lamp, then the light is shining out of darkness.  If you light a lamp and then bring it to a dark place, then the light is shining into the darkness.  The action in both cases, however, is the same: adding light to the darkness where there previously was none.

I think ww might be more concerned with the etiology than the action.

[WhiteWings]

I don't think there would be one.  If you go into a dark place and light a lamp, then the light is shining out of darkness.  If you light a lamp and then bring it to a dark place, then the light is shining into the darkness.  The action in both cases, however, is the same: adding light to the darkness where there previously was none.

Outside this forum I wouldn't even wasted one second of time on a question like that. I would simply agree with you.
I might be looking for trouble but I sorta learned that even the most insignificant of words or a little comma can make huge differences in understanding a verse.
If I kill you right now or let you die of old age doesn't make a different. The result is you are dead... :winkgrin:
That's sounds like another joke but it has a real difference in it.
Plus my point was not if the lamp is lit in darkness or a lit lamp is carried into darkness.
It's more that I read the already lit lamp was carried away from here/earth and so leaving darkness behind. :dontknow:

[Molly]

Now we are getting somewhere because earlier you wrote:

Quote
It never says God removed light from anywhere.  Nor does it say He puts it back.

This is what I said--

It never says God removed light from anywhere.  Nor does it say He puts it back.

He commands it 'to be' or 'to shine out.'

But look at what Cardinal just said--

The "darkness" of all created matter is at it's essence nothing but "slowed down" Spirit/light, taking the form of darkness. It creates the shadow by appearing as the contrast of what it really is. This is why He quickens (means to speed up) our mortal bodies. Blessings.....

Now I think we're getting somewhere.  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Cardinal that would mean God was standing still or moved at extreme slow speed because things were dark in Gen 1:3
I'm 100% sure you don't mean it that way but it would mean God was darkness for a moment.
Fine with me because God's powers are limitles.
But not so fine if you take into account the rest of the Bible is kinda clear in :evil=satan=darkness=sin=etc

[Molly]

I'm 100% sure you don't mean it that way but it would mean God was darkness for a moment.

How do you draw that conclusion?  Don't confuse the Creator with the creation.

[WhiteWings]

I'm 100% sure you don't mean it that way but it would mean God was darkness for a moment.

How do you draw that conclusion?  Don't confuse the Creator with the creation.

The "darkness" of all created matter is at it's essence nothing but "slowed down" Spirit/light