God is light but still He creates light?
Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
If darkness is the absense of light then I would expect a verse that explains the creation of darkness by removing light. Like:
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Idea's ?
"God Is". That's why He said, "I AM". And because 'God Is', there must be something opposed to God in order for God to be made manifest. "We Are" (only because "He Is"). That's the way I usually deal with this topic which is mostly beyond my understanding.
Peace-
Anne
Anne, I don't understand your answer... :laughing7:
God said "I am".
Agreed and understood.
But what is He? Is He darkness or is He light?
Light is the standard answer. But why He has to create light if it always existed?
The second verse decribes God moving around. Apperently it was still dark because the next verse He's creating light.
And many verses later in Cor. it's said God didn't really create light but created darkness by removing light.
Carefully note the shining out of darkness and into our hearts. Out and in
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 15, 2009, 01:34:46 PM
"God Is". That's why He said, "I AM". And because 'God Is', there must be something opposed to God in order for God to be made manifest. "We Are" (only because "He Is"). That's the way I usually deal with this topic which is mostly beyond my understanding.
Peace-
Anne
Is the thing opposed to God "I AM NOT"?
:laughing7:
At any rate, WW, assuming you're referring to 1 John 1:5, I think it's intended to just be metaphorical, similar to the statements that God is a rock, God is a shield, et cetera. It's providing insight into his nature, not literally saying that God is a physical cluster of photons.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 15, 2009, 02:51:20 PM
Anne, I don't understand your answer... :laughing7:
God said "I am".
Agreed and understood.
But what is He? Is He darkness or is He light?
Light is the standard answer. But why He has to create light if it always existed?
The second verse decribes God moving around. Apperently it was still dark because the next verse He's creating light.
And many verses later in Cor. it's said God didn't really create light but created darkness by removing light.
Carefully note the shining out of darkness and into our hearts. Out and in
Curious.
I had always assumed the default state was darkness. But what if the default state is light? Then to get darkness, something must be obscuring the light [casting a shadow].
"darkness"G4655
σκότος
skotosskot'-os
From the base of G4639;
shadiness, that is, obscurity (literally or figuratively): - darkness.
G4639
σκία
skiaskee'-ah
Apparently a primary word;
"shade" or a shadow (literally or figuratively [darkness of error or an adumbration]): - shadow.
Even "I am" are complex words. It can mean so many things. Including a way to decribe eternal.
But those words are not in my OP.
Agreed God is not a cluster of photons. But He does use light as a way to describe Himself.
Metaphorical agreed. But Jesus doesn't state in one verse He's a rock and quicksand in another.
All I'm trying to say is that once God picks light as as metaphorical way to describe Himself I don't expect Him to change that metaphorical description to an opposite.
And that is exactly what I read.
I can assume Gen 1:3 is about creating light in the universe as we know/see it. And not speaking about Himself etc. Fine I can live with such an explantion.
But reading 2 Corinthians 4:6 that explantion isn't so 'trusted' anymore.
It looks like a contradiction. (mods I underlined looks :winkgrin:)
Quote from: wwI can assume Gen 1:3 is about creating light in the universe as we know/see it.
A lot of people think something happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 to cause tohu and bohu--without form and void. Who creates something without form and void?
...and darkness was upon the face of the deep.--Gen 1:2
BTW, In Gen 1:3, God says, Let there be light, before he creates what we think of as sources of light--the sun, moon, and stars.
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2009, 03:07:29 PM
I had always assumed the default state was darkness. But what if the default state is light? Then to get darkness, something must be obscuring the light [casting a shadow].
Even if light is blocked and casts a shadow it already exists. You can argue that we don't have enough light. Fine. But then the verse should be "creates more light" or "creates light besides Himself"
Genesis desribles God moving over the void earth. Some describe it as fluttering (new word for me). Some even go as far and say flutting is very closely near the surface. If God is seen as the most gigantic and pure source of (white) light then noone that watched God fluttering would say "utterly dark dark there"
QuoteBut what if the default state is light?
Then God had to create darkness instead of light. IMO He did by removing the light. But that's more spiritual. But lets not go into that spiritual and carnal stuff without needing to.
Fine it's mentioned. But then not just with one verse but with both verses I mentioned in my OP.
Cor looks back at the very first part of creation. In the second half of the verse it say God puts light into hearts.
One way for me to (force) fit things is that the light in Genesis 1:3 was spiritual.
God removed all love (light) from the face of the earth and then in the second half of Cor He puts it back in own hearts.
Fine. But that directly contradicts Gen 1:3 were he clearly says He is creating light.
Likely I'm not doing a good job explaining what my point is. So I ask you to read the two verses very closely and taking not of the little words IN and OUT
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2009, 03:20:42 PM
BTW, In Gen 1:3, God says, Let there be light, before he creates what we think of as sources of light--the sun, moon, and stars.
True. But as you know our sun and moon are not first generation stars.
Quote from: wwThen God had to create darkness instead of light. IMO He did by removing the light. But that's more spiritual. But lets not go into that spiritual and carnal stuff without needing to.
hmm..maybe creation itself casts a shadow over God's light, by virtue of its density and 'otherness.' I had thought about this a long time ago. When I create something, it is no longer 'me,' although it might resemble me, and takes on a life of its own. In other words, it's something less than me.
Quote from: wwBut then the verse should be "creates more light" or "creates light besides Himself"
Not really. He is commanding the light to shine out of darkness [tohu and bohu] in Gen 1:3, too.
There is no source of self sustaining light created yet, in Gen 1:3.
QuoteGod removed all love (light) from the face of the earth and then in the second half of Cor He puts it back in own hearts.
Fine. But that directly contradicts Gen 1:3 were he clearly says He is creating light.
It never says God removed light from anywhere. Nor does it say He puts it back.
He commands it 'to be' or 'to shine out.'
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 15, 2009, 03:09:27 PM
Even "I am" are complex words. It can mean so many things. Including a way to decribe eternal.
But those words are not in my OP.
Agreed God is not a cluster of photons. But He does use light as a way to describe Himself.
Metaphorical agreed. But Jesus doesn't state in one verse He's a rock and quicksand in another.
All I'm trying to say is that once God picks light as as metaphorical way to describe Himself I don't expect Him to change that metaphorical description to an opposite.
And that is exactly what I read.
I can assume Gen 1:3 is about creating light in the universe as we know/see it. And not speaking about Himself etc. Fine I can live with such an explantion.
But reading 2 Corinthians 4:6 that explantion isn't so 'trusted' anymore.
It looks like a contradiction. (mods I underlined looks :winkgrin:)
I'm not sure I understand what the contradiction is. Genesis 1:3 says that God created light, and 2 Corinthians 4:6... says that God created light. No?
I was thinking recently, maybe God himself creates the shadow as he 'hovers' over his creation--El Shaddai--God as the mother hen.
In that case, the darkness would just be an illusion which we must overcome.
..and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
--Gen 1:3
"moved"
H7363
רחף
râchaph
raw-khaf'
A primitive root; to brood; by implication to be relaxed: - flutter, move, shake.
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2009, 03:33:32 PM
Quote from: wwBut then the verse should be "creates more light" or "creates light besides Himself"
Not really. He is commanding the light to shine out of darkness [tohu and bohu] in Gen 1:3, too.
QuoteThere is no source of self sustaining light created yet, in Gen 1:3.
When are the stars created in Genesis? In secular science long before earth itself.
QuoteIt never says God removed light from anywhere. Nor does it say He puts it back.
Maybe not putting it back. Put putting it in.
QuoteHe commands it 'to be' or 'to shine out.'
"out OF"
If you go out of town. Aren't you leaving town?
Quote from: Gab on November 15, 2009, 03:38:56 PM
I'm not sure I understand what the contradiction is. Genesis 1:3 says that God created light, and 2 Corinthians 4:6... says that God created light. No?
I think the main question to answer is this:
Is there a difference between:
Shining OUT of darkness. => Gab drives his car out of town -> 1 car less in town
or
Shining INto darkness => Gab drives his car into town -> 1 extra car in town
Quote from: wwWhen are the stars created in Genesis? In secular science long before earth itself.
Ask me if I care what those clowns have to say about the creation of the universe. They are just making wild guesses. Contrary to their opinion of themselves, they weren't there. :laughing7:
He doesn't start creating the stars until Gen 1:14--but I will say, these are the stars in our firmament.
QuoteMaybe not putting it back. Put putting it in.
You say, 'putting it in.' But if it's already there and obscured by shadow, then he is just giving the light a command 'to shine out.'
Quote"out OF"
If you go out of town. Aren't you leaving town?
Yes, but you had to be in town to begin with for that to work
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 15, 2009, 04:11:50 PM
I think the main question to answer is this:
Is there a difference between:
Shining OUT of darkness. => Gab drives his car out of town -> 1 car less in town
or
Shining INto darkness => Gab drives his car into town -> 1 extra car in town
I don't think there would be one. If you go into a dark place and light a lamp, then the light is shining out of darkness. If you light a lamp and then bring it to a dark place, then the light is shining into the darkness. The action in both cases, however, is the same: adding light to the darkness where there previously was none.
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2009, 04:19:00 PM
Ask me if I care what those clowns have to say about the creation of the universe. They are just making wild guesses. Contrary to their opinion of themselves, they weren't there. :laughing7:
I really don't want to derail the thread, but I would really encourage you to at least earnestly learn what the assertions are that scientists make, what the evidence is that they present in their favor, and why the evidence is asserted as evidence in its favor before dismissing it. You are free to find fault with the conclusions they've reached, but calling them "wild guesses" is... not exactly correct.
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2009, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: wwWhen are the stars created in Genesis? In secular science long before earth itself.
Ask me if I care what those clowns have to say about the creation of the universe. They are just making wild guesses. Contrary to their opinion of themselves, they weren't there. :laughing7:
That's your opinion. Mine is that the guesses of those clowns don't contradict Genesis.
QuoteHe doesn't start creating the stars until Gen 1:14--but I will say, these are the stars in our firmament.
For me that verse is about the sun and moon. If not they are created a few verses later. But then the question is: If God created the stars and the sun in 1:14 what light He created in 1:3?
QuoteQuoteMaybe not putting it back. Put putting it in.
You say, 'putting it in.' But if it's already there and obscured by shadow, then he is just giving the light a command 'to shine out.'
Quote"out OF"
If you go out of town. Aren't you leaving town?
Yes, but you had to be in town to begin with for that to work
Now we are getting somewhere because earlier you wrote:
QuoteIt never says God removed light from anywhere. Nor does it say He puts it back.
:cloud9: Sharing this vision again........I saw light coming super fast, from my left field of vision; as it slowed, it became gradated levels of darkness beginning with grays and going to a "center" of pure black darkness. Then it started to speed up again, slowly until it reached pure light again with it's super speed.
It resembled those gradated paint chips from the paint departments, only this was Spirit and alive. As it finished He spoke to me, "You have just witnessed creation."
The "darkness" of all created matter is at it's essence nothing but "slowed down" Spirit/light, taking the form of darkness. It creates the shadow by appearing as the contrast of what it really is. This is why He quickens (means to speed up) our mortal bodies. Blessings.....
Quote from: Gab..but calling them "wild guesses" is... not exactly correct
yeah, it is. :laughing7: If they would have the graciousness to start all their papers with, 'We are just making wild guesses. This is my best wild guess.."--I might have more respect for them.
Quote from: wwI don't think there would be one. If you go into a dark place and light a lamp, then the light is shining out of darkness. If you light a lamp and then bring it to a dark place, then the light is shining into the darkness. The action in both cases, however, is the same: adding light to the darkness where there previously was none.
I think ww might be more concerned with the etiology than the action.
Quote from: Gab on November 15, 2009, 04:25:33 PM
I don't think there would be one. If you go into a dark place and light a lamp, then the light is shining out of darkness. If you light a lamp and then bring it to a dark place, then the light is shining into the darkness. The action in both cases, however, is the same: adding light to the darkness where there previously was none.
Outside this forum I wouldn't even wasted one second of time on a question like that. I would simply agree with you.
I might be looking for trouble but I sorta learned that even the most insignificant of words or a little comma can make huge differences in understanding a verse.
If I kill you right now or let you die of old age doesn't make a different. The result is you are dead... :winkgrin:
That's sounds like another joke but it has a real difference in it.
Plus my point was not if the lamp is lit in darkness or a lit lamp is carried into darkness.
It's more that I read the already lit lamp was carried away from here/earth and so leaving darkness behind. :dontknow:
Quote from: wwNow we are getting somewhere because earlier you wrote:
Quote
It never says God removed light from anywhere. Nor does it say He puts it back.
This is what I said--
It never says God removed light from anywhere. Nor does it say He puts it back.
He commands it 'to be' or 'to shine out.'But look at what Cardinal just said--
Quote from: CardinalThe "darkness" of all created matter is at it's essence nothing but "slowed down" Spirit/light, taking the form of darkness. It creates the shadow by appearing as the contrast of what it really is. This is why He quickens (means to speed up) our mortal bodies. Blessings.....
Now I think we're getting somewhere. :laughing7:
Cardinal that would mean God was standing still or moved at extreme slow speed because things were dark in Gen 1:3
I'm 100% sure you don't mean it that way but it would mean God was darkness for a moment.
Fine with me because God's powers are limitles.
But not so fine if you take into account the rest of the Bible is kinda clear in :evil=satan=darkness=sin=etc
Quote from: wwI'm 100% sure you don't mean it that way but it would mean God was darkness for a moment.
How do you draw that conclusion? Don't confuse the Creator with the creation.
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2009, 04:56:00 PM
Quote from: wwI'm 100% sure you don't mean it that way but it would mean God was darkness for a moment.
How do you draw that conclusion? Don't confuse the Creator with the creation.
QuoteThe "darkness" of all created matter is at it's essence nothing but "slowed down" Spirit/light
:cloud9: I'm talking about God pouring Himself into the creation, not spiritual darkness (although He created the waster to destroy), WW. God "died" in this sense, because He was lowered into the formation of the creation. Which is why it says Christ (who is SPIRIT) made everything that was made, and why it says "let everything that have breath, praise the Lord." Breath is His Spirit, and EVERYTHING below the firmament/heaven has this breath at it's core.
God cannot be made, because He already IS. He made it, thru the lowering of Himself. Why do you think the CREATION is groaning and travailing waiting for the glorious liberty of the Sons of God?
If you notice in Gen 1 He started with waters that were first ONE, then separated the waters FROM the waters, putting some under the firmament/heaven (creation) and some above the firmament/heaven (God's Kingdom).
And those that were lowered = we were lowered into this bondage of corruption, not willingly but subjected the same in hope, Christ in you, the hope of glory. Christ was lowered WITH US. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
yeah, it is. :laughing7: If they would have the graciousness to start all their papers with, 'We are just making wild guesses. This is my best wild guess.."--I might have more respect for them.
No, they're not. The distribution of celestial objects, and the observation that galaxies in their relative infancies look different than galaxies today (the light we receive from far away galaxies enables us to view them as they were a long time ago) is strong evidence that galaxies formed and have progressed as scientists have described. The redshifting of large celestial objects indicates that all matter in the universe is expanding away from each other, which in turn would imply that it at one point in the past was closer together. The predominance of light elements such as hydrogen and helium is evidence in favor of the idea that atoms began to form from subatomic particles. The existence of cosmic microwave background radiation - that is, the existence of temperatures above absolute zero at all points in the universe - is evidence in favor of the idea that the universe was at one point much hotter than it is right now.
Like I said, you are free to find fault with the asserted connections between the evidence presented and the conclusions that are presented that they say may be drawn from them - although, again, I would encourage you to earnestly study and understand the reasons why the link between their conclusions and the evidence is made - but scientists are still very much progressing from observations to conclusions; they're not simply sitting around and making things up out of nothing.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 15, 2009, 04:43:35 PM
Outside this forum I wouldn't even wasted one second of time on a question like that. I would simply agree with you.
I might be looking for trouble but I sorta learned that even the most insignificant of words or a little comma can make huge differences in understanding a verse.
If I kill you right now or let you die of old age doesn't make a different. The result is you are dead... :winkgrin:
That's sounds like another joke but it has a real difference in it.
Plus my point was not if the lamp is lit in darkness or a lit lamp is carried into darkness.
It's more that I read the already lit lamp was carried away from here/earth and so leaving darkness behind. :dontknow:
Just so we're on the same page, what verse says that the already lit lamp was carried away from Earth? I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to at this point.
Quote from: Gab on November 15, 2009, 05:09:12 PM
Just so we're on the same page, what verse says that the already lit lamp was carried away from Earth? I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to at this point.
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness....
:cloud9: And He does the same thing whenever one of us has turned to Christ, the light of all men that come into the world, ie. He commands the light to shine out of our darkness. He is just repeating Gen. 1 over and over and over again, in a multitude of applications. Blessings....
Quote from: Gab..but scientists are still very much progressing from observations to conclusions; they're not simply sitting around and making things up out of nothing.
I'm a big fan of hard science and technology, but the theoretical scientists, like the ones who who most recently brought us the global warming debacle, can go pound sand. I'm sick of the way they postulate something and expect us all to believe it like they are God. They're not. Neither would any of them be able to tell us, if push came to shove, how the universe came into being. It's just a guess based on a guess. They are like a termite looking at an elephant who convince themselves they are bigger than the elephant because they can feel the dirt on the bottom of his big toe.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
2Co 4:17-18 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Gen 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
God separates light and darkness by the Word. He creates by speaking.
Joh 1:3-5 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness could not overcome it.
2Co 4:3-6 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
I think whatever God speaks, He speaks to teach us, not so much what He did(visible, temporal), but how and why He does what He does(invisible,eternal)("these things were written for our example"). The things we see are reflections/shadows of the invisible substance of His eternal power and divine nature.
Confusion (tohu and bohu, formless and void) is the state of the carnal/natural/unenlightened human. But there is hope :Sparkletooth:, because the Spirit hovers upon the surface of the waters (2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.) He will speak, "Let there be light", and light will shine out of the unknown(invisible/darkness) to "make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery". The separation of the light (what you see) from the darkness (what you don't see) making visible hidden things is revelation, the pathway to substance/reality/manifestation. "I will speak to them in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world". Darkness isn't always symbolic of sin/evil, sometimes it is symbolic of the deep, the unknown, the mystery. He comes in "clouds and thick darkness".
Eph 5:13-14 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead(carnality/confusion), And Christ will shine on you."
Eph 3:8-9 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
Eph 1:15-23 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints....... that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know(experientially, not theoretically) what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.
Revelation provides dry land, obedience sows the seed, commending ourselves before men by "the manifestation of truth" creates fruitfulness/multiplication. What we "know" is nothing if we do not "manifest" the divine nature. We have these great and precious promises that by them we might become partakers of the divine nature.
Jas 3:14-18 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, do not be arrogant and lie against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Before He speaks and separates the waters from the waters there is "confusion and every evil work" as we walk in the wisdom that is "earthly, sensual, demonic". Carnal believers, babies, are unable to understand the purposes of God, hostile towards them, considering them foolishness. "The wisdom from above is first pure then peaceable then easily entreated then full of mercy and good fruit, and the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by them that make peace."