Law/laws/sabbath (split from OSAS)

[eaglesway]

some within the group have already fallen short - there is falling away and there is falling short.

11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

These are all believers. Some are falling short. Some of them are not maturing. Some of them are in danger of falling away. All of them are being exhorted to enter the finished work, receive the promises, walk as a priesthood. All of them are being encouraged as to the incredible resources available to them through Jesus Christ.

[FreeAtLast]

Regarding Colossians 2:16, the Aramaic says:

לא  הכיל  אנש  נדודכונ  במאכלא  ובמשתיא  או  בפולגא  דעאדא  ודרש  ירחא  ודשבא

The first part literally reads:

לא  הכיל  אנש  נדודכונ  במאכלא  ובמשתיא

Let not a man disturb you all in the food and in the drink...

This is not speaking about food and drink in general, as two separate categories, but is referring to the food and drink related to what follows in the text. The and prefixed to 'drink' lets us know that Paul has 'food and drink' as a single category, not two.

This is followed by או which is the conjunction 'either/or'. Here, because there is a subordinate grouping 'feast days, new moon days, shabbats', או should be translated as 'either'.

בפולגא refers to multiple parts of a whole, in other words, the particulars of something. Translations that render this plural as a singular 'in regard to', are watering down the meaning and giving a misleading reading.

The main thrust of what Paul is saying in this verse has to do with not allowing anyone to judge these believers regarding the particulars of eating and drinking, and the next part of the verse is describing the when of this judging, when this judging would take place.

The judging would be concerning the eating and drinking on feast days, new moons, and shabbats. These days were noted for special meals and lots of drink, as part of the enjoyment of those times.

The context tells us that Paul knew that there were ascetics who were trying to influence these believers, for he goes on to describe these are saying...do not touch, do not taste, do not cleave (vs 21).

The Greek also shows this same pattern grammatically:

μη  ουν  τις  υμας  κρινετω  εν  βρωσει  και  εν  ποσει  η  εν  μερει  εορτης  η  νεομηνιας  η  σαββατων

This first part is:

εν  βρωσει  και  εν  ποσει

in eating AND

thank you brother for your research and digging--greatly appreciated  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:


this should clarify this subject completely---they were holding the Sabbaths

in the old testament with one of the feasts--they were told to bring what their hearts desired for the feast--one of the things was Strong Drink

I could understand why now paul was saying let no man judge in in what they ate or drank on the Sabbaths

to some it would have appeared that they were as the drunkards--so they would have been judged by man as so

but not so--it was ordained of the Father    :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[gregoryfl]

Sorry, I accidently posted before I finished my thought.  :sigh: Here it is again in full  :dsunny:

Regarding Colossians 2:16, the Aramaic says:

לא  הכיל  אנש  נדודכונ  במאכלא  ובמשתיא  או  בפולגא  דעאדא  ודרש  ירחא  ודשבא

The first part literally reads:

לא  הכיל  אנש  נדודכונ  במאכלא  ובמשתיא

Let not a man disturb you all in the food and in the drink...

This is not speaking about food and drink in general, as two separate categories, but is referring to the food and drink related to what follows in the text. The and prefixed to 'drink' lets us know that Paul has 'food and drink' as a single category, not two.

This is followed by או which is the conjunction 'either/or'. Here, because there is a subordinate grouping 'feast days, new moon days, shabbats', או should be translated as 'either'.

בפולגא refers to multiple parts of a whole, in other words, the particulars of something. Translations that render this plural as a singular 'in regard to', are watering down the meaning and giving a misleading reading.

The main thrust of what Paul is saying in this verse has to do with not allowing anyone to judge these believers regarding the particulars of eating and drinking, and the next part of the verse is describing the when of this judging, when this judging would take place.

The judging would be concerning the eating and drinking on feast days, new moons, and shabbats. These days were noted for special meals and lots of drink, as part of the enjoyment of those times.

The context tells us that Paul knew that there were ascetics who were trying to influence these believers, for he goes on to describe these as saying...do not touch, do not taste, do not cleave (vs 21).

The Greek also shows this same pattern grammatically:

μη  ουν  τις  υμας  κρινετω  εν  βρωσει  και  εν  ποσει  η  εν  μερει  εορτης  η  νεομηνιας  η  σαββατων

This first part is:

εν  βρωσει  και  εν  ποσει

in eating AND in drinking...this is one category joined by the word 'and'.

This is followed by three eta's (η) which, when more than one is in a list, the first is grammatically 'either' and the rest are 'or'. So, in this case, η...η...η is 'either...or...or.

Again, this tells us that the eating and drinking has to do with the eating and drinking (the particulars) taking place during feast days, new moons, and shabbats.

The reason he is telling them not to let anyone judge them (the ascetics who were against bodily pleasures, including those involving the enjoyment of good food and drink) is because those times reflect a shadow, not of things in their past, but of things to come. That he is bringing this up shows that these brothers and sisters were keeping these days, eating and drinking festive meals as part of the celebrations, and being judged by the ascetics for doing so. These were not judaizers trying to get these believers to keep the feasts, new moons, and shabbats, but rather the Greek gnostics who thought of the physical world and all things physical as evil, and in need of being suppressed.

This is my personal reason for continuing to observe these special times, not because I get any brownie points with God, but because they, as a shadow of good things to come, have much to teach me and my family, and offer much to reflect on concerning the realities that they point to, and also concerning things yet to take place.

As an example, each year my wife and I celebrate a tradition called an anniversary. This is a commemoration of an event that was fulfilled for me and my wife 15 years ago when we got married. Although that event took place and was fulfilled in the past, the anniversary provides an annual reminder of that event, to reflect on our relationship, and to enjoy a festive meal together, something which was given to mankind as a means of bonding.

Ronen

[Seth]

The thing that I need to note is that the Aramaic is a translation from Greek, correct? In order to get the Aramaic, a translator had to interpret what the person would probably have written had the text been written in that language originally.

I am not saying that it was, but the most original text we have is the Greek, which is why I prefer it.

From the Greek we see a pattern of "e" which is a disjunctive particle, which separates two mutually exclusive possibilities. Which you can see represented by "η" In other words, it means "or." As in, should we have Chinese or Italian tonight?

Colossians 2:16
Let no man judge you in regard to food and (kai) regard to drink, or (e) in regard to holy days, or (e) in regard to a new moon, or (e) in regard to a Sabbath

In other words: don't let anyone judge you in food and drink, or holy days, or new moons, or sabbaths.

Why? Next verse 17, which are (the pluralization of everything he just mentioned) a shadow of that which was coming, and the body is of Christ. Sabbath = shadow of coming things. The body of Christ = that which casts the shadow. The body of Christ is today. The sabbath was a shadow of that coming thing.

Paul's logic is: let no man judge you in this...or this....or this...or this, because those things are shadows of coming things but the body is of Christ. So I don't let anyone judge me in Sabbaths because Paul told me not to. I have the body which is Christ.

-------

While I disagree that there is any sufficient evidence that the church was still keeping these things, even if they were, it would be a personal choice, and not a matter of obedience or disobedience to God, who justifies (makes man righteous) apart from the Law. That means that man is not unrighteous by not keeping sabbaths.

[FreeAtLast]

Sorry, I accidently posted before I finished my thought.  :sigh: Here it is again in full  :dsunny:

Regarding Colossians 2:16, the Aramaic says:

לא  הכיל  אנש  נדודכונ  במאכלא  ובמשתיא  או  בפולגא  דעאדא  ודרש  ירחא  ודשבא

The first part literally reads:

לא  הכיל  אנש  נדודכונ  במאכלא  ובמשתיא

Let not a man disturb you all in the food and in the drink...

This is not speaking about food and drink in general, as two separate categories, but is referring to the food and drink related to what follows in the text. The and prefixed to 'drink' lets us know that Paul has 'food and drink' as a single category, not two.

This is followed by או which is the conjunction 'either/or'. Here, because there is a subordinate grouping 'feast days, new moon days, shabbats', או should be translated as 'either'.

בפולגא refers to multiple parts of a whole, in other words, the particulars of something. Translations that render this plural as a singular 'in regard to', are watering down the meaning and giving a misleading reading.

The main thrust of what Paul is saying in this verse has to do with not allowing anyone to judge these believers regarding the particulars of eating and drinking, and the next part of the verse is describing the when of this judging, when this judging would take place.

The judging would be concerning the eating and drinking on feast days, new moons, and shabbats. These days were noted for special meals and lots of drink, as part of the enjoyment of those times.

The context tells us that Paul knew that there were ascetics who were trying to influence these believers, for he goes on to describe these as saying...do not touch, do not taste, do not cleave (vs 21).

The Greek also shows this same pattern grammatically:

μη  ουν  τις  υμας  κρινετω  εν  βρωσει  και  εν  ποσει  η  εν  μερει  εορτης  η  νεομηνιας  η  σαββατων

This first part is:

εν  βρωσει  και  εν  ποσει

in eating AND in drinking...this is one category joined by the word 'and'.

This is followed by three eta's (η) which, when more than one is in a list, the first is grammatically 'either' and the rest are 'or'. So, in this case, η...η...η is 'either...or...or.

Again, this tells us that the eating and drinking has to do with the eating and drinking (the particulars) taking place during feast days, new moons, and shabbats.

The reason he is telling them not to let anyone judge them (the ascetics who were against bodily pleasures, including those involving the enjoyment of good food and drink) is because those times reflect a shadow, not of things in their past, but of things to come. That he is bringing this up shows that these brothers and sisters were keeping these days, eating and drinking festive meals as part of the celebrations, and being judged by the ascetics for doing so. These were not judaizers trying to get these believers to keep the feasts, new moons, and shabbats, but rather the Greek gnostics who thought of the physical world and all things physical as evil, and in need of being suppressed.

This is my personal reason for continuing to observe these special times, not because I get any brownie points with God, but because they, as a shadow of good things to come, have much to teach me and my family, and offer much to reflect on concerning the realities that they point to, and also concerning things yet to take place.

As an example, each year my wife and I celebrate a tradition called an anniversary. This is a commemoration of an event that was fulfilled for me and my wife 15 years ago when we got married. Although that event took place and was fulfilled in the past, the anniversary provides an annual reminder of that event, to reflect on our relationship, and to enjoy a festive meal together, something which was given to mankind as a means of bonding.

Ronen

that's exactly right brother  :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

they were not kept to justify or earn us brownie points before Yah--Yahshua is our brownie points :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

And we do them through Faith---not in dead works under the law---but in newness of the Spirirt--being led by the Spirit in LOVE  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Faith without works is dead--through our faith we establish the law as paul said

[Seth]

I can see that the disagreement is not about translation. Ronen and I have the same translation. The disagreement is whether or not sabbaths are to be kept in obedience to God as shadows of something we are still waiting for.

Hebrews 4 shows us that God has fixed the sabbath-rest for when?

TODAY!!!!!

So, we who believe enter into that rest (as opposed to those in the group who fall short of entering his rest)

Jesus Christ says "come unto me and I shall give you rest."

[FreeAtLast]

I can see that the disagreement is not about translation. Ronen and I have the same translation. The disagreement is whether or not sabbaths are to be kept in obedience to God as shadows of something we are still waiting for.

Hebrews 4 shows us that God has fixed the sabbath-rest for when?

TODAY!!!!!

So, we who believe enter into that rest (as opposed to those in the group who fall short of entering his rest)

Jesus Christ says "come unto me and I shall give you rest."

again depends how to perceive Hebrews 4--I perceive it as the 7th day Sabbath   :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

although I do believe there is rest in Yahshua--but the context in Hebrews 4 is Sabbath 7th day rest


Just like paul speedily hurried  that he might make it for Pentecost
he said let the believers speedily hurry to enter that rest on the 7th day Sabbath--ceasing from our works just as yah did from his :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

James wasn't referencing works of the Law. He was referencing the commandment to "love your neighbor" which according to John is one of the two commandments Christ has for his people. The other is believe in Jesus.

James wasn't saying keep the sabbath as a way for your faith to remain alive and therefore to save you. We are saved APART FROM THE WORKS OF THE LAW.

But James says "what good is faith without works? Can that faith save him?"

And you are saying that James was talking about keeping Sabbath. Where James is actually talking about LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Keeping Sabbath is not what saves man from his sin. This is error teaching. Have you actually carefully read James 2?

[gregoryfl]

From the Greek we see a pattern of "e" which is a disjunctive particle, which separates two mutually exclusive possibilities. Which you can see represented by "η" In other words, it means "or." As in, should we have Chinese or Italian tonight?

Colossians 2:16
Let no man judge you in regard to food and (kai) regard to drink, or (e) in regard to holy days, or (e) in regard to a new moon, or (e) in regard to a Sabbath

In other words: don't let anyone judge you in food and drink, or holy days, or new moons, or sabbaths.

Sorry, I know you posted this before I got my full post in, in which I address the eta's in the text, showing how they should not be 'or, or, or', but 'either, or, or', grammatically providing the context of the eating and drinking.

The rule is this: When you have one eta, it is 'or'. When you have multiple eta's, the first one starts a grouping, so it becomes 'either, or, or...etc.' Another example of this can be found in 1Co 14:6 where you have 4 eta's in the text.

λαλησω  η  εν  αποκαλυψει  η  εν  γνωσει  η  εν  προφητεια  η  εν  διδαχη

Literally it would be:

I do speak OR in revelation, OR in knowledge, OR in prophesy, OR in teaching.

Grammatically it is understood as:

I do speak EITHER in revelation, OR in knowledge, OR in prophesy, OR in teaching.

The first eta starts a grouping, just as it does in the Colossian passage. I hope that makes a bit more sense.

Ronen

[FreeAtLast]

James wasn't referencing works of the Law. He was referencing the commandment to "love your neighbor" which according to John is one of the two commandments Christ has for his people. The other is believe in Jesus.

James wasn't saying keep the sabbath as a way for your faith to remain alive and therefore to save you. We are saved APART FROM THE WORKS OF THE LAW.

But James says "what good is faith without works? Can that faith save him?"

And you are saying that James was talking about keeping Sabbath. Where James is actually talking about LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Keeping Sabbath is not what saves man from his sin. This is error teaching. Have you actually carefully read James 2?

you keep beating a dead dog Seth

I have stated over and over that Yahshua is our Righteousness through faith

not by the deeds of the law are we justified--but through Faith  in Yahshua

the Sipirt leads us in LOVE-we establish the law  through our faith   LOVE


tradition  has a strong grip of mankind today  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

You said "Faith without works is dead--through our faith we establish the law as paul said"

Therefore, faith without obeying the sabbath day is dead?

Therefore our faith cannot save without obeying the LAW?

James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds (keeping the sabbath?) Can such faith save them?

ERROR

James is not talking about keeping the Law as a deed which added to faith keeps faith alive. He is talking about LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR. Look at the context.

[Seth]

From the Greek we see a pattern of "e" which is a disjunctive particle, which separates two mutually exclusive possibilities. Which you can see represented by "η" In other words, it means "or." As in, should we have Chinese or Italian tonight?

Colossians 2:16
Let no man judge you in regard to food and (kai) regard to drink, or (e) in regard to holy days, or (e) in regard to a new moon, or (e) in regard to a Sabbath

In other words: don't let anyone judge you in food and drink, or holy days, or new moons, or sabbaths.

Sorry, I know you posted this before I got my full post in, in which I address the eta's in the text, showing how they should not be 'or, or, or', but 'either, or, or', grammatically providing the context of the eating and drinking.

The rule is this: When you have one eta, it is 'or'. When you have multiple eta's, the first one starts a grouping, so it becomes 'either, or, or...etc.' Another example of this can be found in 1Co 14:6 where you have 4 eta's in the text.

λαλησω  η  εν  αποκαλυψει  η  εν  γνωσει  η  εν  προφητεια  η  εν  διδαχη

Literally it would be:

I do speak OR in revelation, OR in knowledge, OR in prophesy, OR in teaching.

Grammatically it is understood as:

I do speak EITHER in revelation, OR in knowledge, OR in prophesy, OR in teaching.

The first eta starts a grouping, just as it does in the Colossian passage. I hope that makes a bit more sense.

Ronen

So, it's a grouping of things we should not be judged according to? Either this and this, or this, or this, or that? I don't see how it changes the meaning.

[FreeAtLast]

You said "Faith without works is dead--through our faith we establish the law as paul said"

Therefore, faith without obeying the sabbath day is dead?

Therefore our faith cannot save without obeying the LAW?

James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds (keeping the sabbath?) Can such faith save them?

ERROR

James is not talking about keeping the Law as a deed which added to faith keeps faith alive. He is talking about LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR. Look at the context.

putting words in my mouth now ???

I never said obeying the Sabbath was that that saved us--you keep saying that   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[gregoryfl]

So what should the correct translation be?

Therefore let no one judge you in eating and in drinking; either in the particulars of a feast or new moon or shabbats, which are a shadow of the things to come, but the body is the Messiah.

[Seth]

You said "Faith without works is dead--through our faith we establish the law as paul said"

Therefore, faith without obeying the sabbath day is dead?

Therefore our faith cannot save without obeying the LAW?

James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds (keeping the sabbath?) Can such faith save them?

ERROR

James is not talking about keeping the Law as a deed which added to faith keeps faith alive. He is talking about LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR. Look at the context.

putting words in my mouth now ???

I never said obeying the Sabbath was that that saved us--you keep saying that   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

You quoted James as a way to say that "faith without works is dead" in reference to the Sabbath. I don't think you quite realize what you were saying with respect to what James was actually talking about.

[joeteekay]

This thread has so any components.
About the keeping of the Sabbath. I held strongly to the belief that a true Christian had to "keep the Sabbath" (i.e.) physically with other believers of this command. I rested my argument on the likes of the Emphatic Diaglot of Heb 4:9:


Diaglott(i) 9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.

Strong's:
σαββατισμός
a "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven)
Derivation: from a derivative of G4521;
KJV Usage: rest.
G4521

Thayer:

1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians

I am now seeing this is a keeping of it in Spirit. Is it just one one day or everyday, I still do not know for sure.

[eaglesway]

You could just take Paul's word for it.

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—Col 2:16

[micah7:9]

 :banana:

[FreeAtLast]

This thread has so any components.
About the keeping of the Sabbath. I held strongly to the belief that a true Christian had to "keep the Sabbath" (i.e.) physically with other believers of this command. I rested my argument on the likes of the Emphatic Diaglot of Heb 4:9:


Diaglott(i) 9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.

Strong's:
σαββατισμός
a "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven)
Derivation: from a derivative of G4521;
KJV Usage: rest.
G4521

Thayer:

1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians

I am now seeing this is a keeping of it in Spirit. Is it just one one day or everyday, I still do not know for sure.

the worst things that are said is that you have to or you must do it--that attitude is that that was under the law--had to or else---DEATH

in newness  of spirit says that I LOVE Yah--not because I have to keep it to have  Life--but because I already have Life in Yahshua

it is through faith not from the dead works under the law that  did not profit----LOVE

[gregoryfl]

So, it's a grouping of things we should not be judged according to? Either this and this, or this, or this, or that? I don't see how it changes the meaning.

It does. This is how:

If I say do not let anyone judge you regarding the particulars of eating or drinking or feasts or new moons or shabbats,  I have just listed 5 things in a grouping, with a general encouragement not to let anyone judge concerning those things.

However, if I take the first two things...'eating and drinking', as their own separate category, and then add the either, or, or list following it, that list is no longer simply 1 of 5 separate things being judged, but is instead providing the context of 3 things in which no one is to judge you concerning the eating and drinking. If they were not eating and drinking in the observance of these days, Paul would have no reason to warn them about these Greek ascetics.

It changes from this listing...

Let no one judge you regarding the following 5 things:

1. eating
2. drinking
3 feast day
4. new moon
5. shabbat

to this listing...

Let no one judge you regarding the following group:

1. eating and drinking

when?

during the following times:

2. feasts, new moons, shabbats.

The clincher is the fact that this letter is not dealing with Judaizers, but Greek gnosticism. Greek gnostic ascetics would not be judging them for not observing these days, but they would be if they were and seeing them doing something they disapproved of...eating and drinking alot during thost times.

Grammatical and contextual evidence to me points to these believers observing these days. As to why, the text does not address this. It just says they were.

[micah7:9]

This thread has caused me to go into temporary retirement, but I agree with joeteekay :dsunny:

[gregoryfl]

And I would like to make one thing clear, concerning why I do what I do.

I may differ from other believers who observe moedim and shabbats and new moons, but I do NOT do so because I have to. That is tantamount to observing the letter.

I observe them because I WANT to. It is in my heart to do so. I also love, not because I have to, but because I want to. If I love God or my neighbor because I have to, then I am just as guilty of observing the letter as the next guy and that command to love God and my neighbor as myself will kill me.

[Seth]

So, here is the contextual evidence which is more immediate

Colossians 2
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, and in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So, if what you are saying is true, I can show up to a feast with a pork chop nobody can judge me on that....but I am commanded to obey and maintain the Sabbath as a literal day, even though the handwriting of ordinances is blotted out? I personally believe that the passage makes more sense how it was translated.

[Seth]

And I would like to make one thing clear, concerning why I do what I do.

I may differ from other believers who observe moedim and shabbats and new moons, but I do NOT do so because I have to. That is tantamount to observing the letter.

I observe them because I WANT to. It is in my heart to do so. I also love, not because I have to, but because I want to. If I love God or my neighbor because I have to, then I am just as guilty of observing the letter as the next guy and that command to love God and my neighbor as myself will kill me.

Thank you for making that clear.

BTW, Jesus does command us to love, so we do have to, but he makes us want to.  :HeartThrob:

[FreeAtLast]

And I would like to make one thing clear, concerning why I do what I do.

I may differ from other believers who observe moedim and shabbats and new moons, but I do NOT do so because I have to. That is tantamount to observing the letter.

I observe them because I WANT to. It is in my heart to do so. I also love, not because I have to, but because I want to. If I love God or my neighbor because I have to, then I am just as guilty of observing the letter as the next guy and that command to love God and my neighbor as myself will kill me.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: