My son has some American church history in his homeschool curriculum. As a European I never had those lessons. Today I read this in his lessons:
Great men of God influenced the hearts and minds of the colonists... One of these men was mr. Jonathan Edwards... God blessed Mr. Edwards with great wisdom...
God chose to begin a mighty revival in America, called the Great Awakening. It started in this (JE's) church. Mr. Edwards preached a greatly inspired sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," in that church. He fixed his eyes on the black wall of the church and did not raise his voice, but people, young and old alike, began to be saved as he preached. Mr. Jonathan Edwards wrote about those revival days: "...the town seemed to be full of... God: it never wa so full of love nor of joy...It was a time of joy in families on the account of salvation being brought to them; parents rejoicing over their children as new born, and husbands over their wives, and wives over their husbands."
Now I have read this sermon some years ago and I found it repulsive, blasphemous.
Now I was wondering, whether this was a real revival? Or were all those people convinced by fear, or did they serve a very different god? I cannot imagine trusting the unconditional Love and Grace of God after hearing such a message. Or is it so that God even uses something like this, even when it's very wrong? What are your thoughts? BTW I noticed he fixed his eyes on a BLACK wall...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Angry_God = Wikipedia summary
http://edwards.yale.edu/archive?path=aHR0cDovL2Vkd2FyZHMueWFsZS5lZHUvY2dpLWJpbi9uZXdwaGlsby9nZXRvYmplY3QucGw/Yy4yMTo0Ny53amVv = sermon
For all your reading pleasure! :flamebreath:
D.
" Now I was wondering, whether this was a real revival? "
There have been many so-called revivals.
Look at what they were preaching.
They pretty much say repent or go to hell.
These all detract from what Christ achieved for mankind. They focus on personal repentance/effort.
" Or were all those people convinced by fear, or did they serve a very different god? "
Matt 7;21-23
2 Cor 11;13-15
2 Tim 4;3,4
Matt 22;14
Matt 23;13
These all highlight that there are many who stray from the truth, yet speak with conviction.
However they will be literally corrected in their own time.
1 Cor 15;22,23
C.U
Oops, I quoted wrongly, it said BACK wall instead of BLACK wall :doh:
Christianity has often been perverted in its talking and teaching. Instead of going at the work of spreading love and grace, they instead focussed on wrath and threatening people with damnation. But that's a crime in God's eyes. Man shall be free and happy, not suppressed and bowed down. Love is what God desires for us instead, and the humility of choosing love over hatred, peace over war, righteousness over violent sin. The people who converted at Edwards' sermons were not converted to God's love but to the wailings of a bitter and evil preacher.
In a time where people were generally uneducated and subject to many misconceptions about the spiritual world, the doctrine of hell was used to provoke immense fear in people. But the preaching of judgment upon the wicked is not necessarily out of God's mandate- depending on the Spirit in which it is preached.
Paul said, "Some save with mercy, some save with fear, hating even the garment spoted by the flesh".
Even tho I believe in ultimate reconciliation, I do believe in the judgment of God and the need for repentance from sin.
it is hard, looking back through the distance to really know how much of these revivals were true spiritual awakenings and how many were not. It will all come out before the judgment seat of Christ where the wood hay and stubble will be separated from gold, silver and precious stone, and burned up.
Sad that so many have given up, or never knew, the Gospel (Good News) of certain salvation, and plunged into the sheeple dip of damnationism. Sad that so many sincere Christians read their Bibles through the filter of the Fire-Forever doctrines. :Chinscratch:
Boy Jonathan Edwards found an effective way of sharing the gospel that the Apostles didn't know about. That could have been handy...
That's funny Seth :). I agree. Good post John.
---------
Generally, even though I don't agree with the tactic, would not have liked the sermon, and unless otherwise compelled by the Holy Spirit, I would have likely not gone in the first place or walked out quickly. Still, another side of this came more clearly for me today. Consider this; God can use anything He chooses to use. Also, the scripture "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" also carries with it this - "no one can call me Lord except in the Holy Spirit". And Paul said this in Philippians 1:17-19 - "the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice.."
Maybe just some things to think about before we start declaring who is evil and who never got saved etc. based on our preferences.
I personally believe MANY believed on Christ in those services. As usual, I also believe some fell on hard, thorny, and good ground. Still, God can and does use cracked vessels - which is good, because we all have our chips and imperfections :).
Jesus Son of God, crucified, risen again is the gospel.
Abigail a good homeschool resource as an antidote to Jonathan Edwards is to watch the Disney movie Pollyanna
The preacher in this movie preaches about a covenant with death and strikes fear of eternal damnation into the congregation, but young Pollyanna challenges the preacher to see things differently.
http://www.amazon.com/Pollyanna-Vault-Disney-Collection-Hayley/dp/B00005RRGB
Quote from: jabcat on September 09, 2015, 07:52:09 PM
That's funny Seth :). I agree. Good post John.
---------
Generally, even though I don't agree with the tactic, would not have liked the sermon, and unless otherwise compelled by the Holy Spirit, I would have likely not gone in the first place or walked out quickly. Still, another side of this came more clearly for me today. Consider this; God can use anything He chooses to use. Also, the scripture "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" also carries with it this - "no one can call me Lord except in the Holy Spirit". And Paul said this in Philippians 1:17-19 - "the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice.."
Maybe just some things to think about before we start declaring who is evil and who never got saved etc. based on our preferences.
I personally believe MANY believed on Christ in those services. As usual, I also believe some fell on hard, thorny, and good ground. Still, God can and does use cracked vessels - which is good, because we all have our chips and imperfections :).
Jesus Son of God, crucified, risen again is the gospel.
At the end of the day, God will use everything for his purpose in one way or another.
I belive at the end of the day its a lot more personal than we tend to believe. God will see the secret things of each heart, and respond as needed. What Jonathan Edwards did will mean almost nothing to those who did not do as he did, and for those who did.... they will be examined in the fire like all the rest of us. The wood hay and stubble will burn. The gold silver and precious stone will remain, and in the end.....every knee shall bow and every tongue confess and God will be all in all.
Many people speak of sinners going to hell with a gleam in their eye! They want sinners to go there. Really. After all, they deserve it, right? What do they care if other people who "deserve it" suffer pain, no matter how horrible it is? At the end of "That Day" they will have had to answer for their apathy to other's pain in hell, even if it was imaginary. Edwards was an influential speaker; too bad he didn't really know Father God.
Amen. And in addition to all that, after millenia of incredible torment. After they have lost all resolve and their rebellion has crumbled and they have begged in utter misery and limitless pain for mercy- Father God and our Lord Jesus, the Lamb will say "NO!" We prefer to watch you burn!"- and we(know you not we will judge the world?) will all say...
"No, you must burn forever because- even tho we were enemies just like you, and even tho we were reconciled by grace, and even tho we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world and were sinners and adversaries rescued through no goodness of our own- you cannot have that grace and you cannot be3 reconciled and we prefer to watch you burn forever!
Kinda twisted eh?
Thank you Rhodes, I have heard about the book and have been looking for it and did not know there was a movie. I'll be looking for it!
A lot of good points.
Quote from: JBerton on October 28, 2015, 06:23:19 PM
Many people speak of sinners going to hell with a gleam in their eye! They want sinners to go there. Really. After all, they deserve it, right? What do they care if other people who "deserve it" suffer pain, no matter how horrible it is? At the end of "That Day" they will have had to answer for their apathy to other's pain in hell, even if it was imaginary. Edwards was an influential speaker; too bad he didn't really know Father God.
Correct doctrine is important - as God allows each a glimpse. But I don't think we can accurately say he "didn't know God". As far as I know He trusted Jesus as His Savior.
......I think it's a matter/level of intimacy..of which He chooses how deeply and on what level we are in relationship with Him.
consider the 70 sent out 2x2..the 12..the few on the mount of transfiguration...etc.
it is given unto to you to know..the secrets of the kingdom[parables]etc
knowledge will increase.........I propose that knowledge of the Lord increases when He wants it to. Nothing hidden will not be
revealed.......I think nothing will be revealed to anyone unless He wants it to..mystery's hidden things....times and seasons all in
the Lord's jurisdiction.
REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST
Quote from: sheila on October 29, 2015, 12:36:14 AM
......I think it's a matter/level of intimacy..of which He chooses how deeply and on what level we are in relationship with Him.
consider the 70 sent out 2x2..the 12..the few on the mount of transfiguration...etc.
it is given unto to you to know..the secrets of the kingdom[parables]etc
knowledge will increase.........I propose that knowledge of the Lord increases when He wants it to. Nothing hidden will not be
revealed.......I think nothing will be revealed to anyone unless He wants it to..mystery's hidden things....times and seasons all in
the Lord's jurisdiction.
REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST
i agree :)
Those who teach hell are pretty agressive in their stance for the most part. I think UR needs to be proclaimed- not in a hostile and demeaning way.....but definitely in a clear way, because God has ordained that the gospel be made known by the foolishness of a proclamation. There is no other gospel than the gospel Jeus and the apostles proclaimed, so while I applaud wisdom and patience and the leading of the Lord, I have no timidity about proclaiming UR as THE GOSPEL, because it is.
We all know there is no "HELL" as it is taught by most, and that the lake of fire and Gehenna represent God purging, correcting and exposing iniquity to be cleansed when "every knee bows" and the last adversaries are subjected.
What I wonder is this..... who did God send to tell Jonathan Edwards that he was wrong about the doctrines of resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment, tyat he was wrong about why God judges and how He views His creation, but I am pretty sure He did, just as He did for me when I was a successful young Pentecostal preacher.
Perhaps the price of digging out his gospel was too high for a man like Johnathan Edwards, considered to be so eminent and intelligent. This note from his book "The End for Which God Created the World" shows his boldness in proclaiming something patently false.
In addition, Edwards preached several messages on Revelation 18:20 ["Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her"] under the title "The End of the Wicked Contemplated by
the Righteous: The Torments of the Wicked in Hell No Occasion of Grief to the Saints in
Heaven," in: The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol. 2
Yet we know Paul stated he would suffer the rejection of God if only it would bring the enlightenment of his brothers and sisters in Israel, and he had already visited heaven.
We know Jesus prayed from the cross, "Father forgive them they know not what they do" and we are to believe that that was just an expression of His perfect sentiments but in no way a request to be redeemed from the Father..... perhaps our Lord, who told us, "If you believe say to the mountain "Be removed and cast into the sea" and it will be done for you by my Father".... was lacking in faith as He prayed from the cross, and prophecied falsely when He said, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." :o)
A couple of my thoughts:
It says in the bible that teachers will be judged more harshly than others, so I wonder if hellfire preachers, who covert some people out of fear of being tortured forever, but lose others who think that they could never believe in that kind of God, fall under this category
When I hear of the imagery that these preachers/believers talk about, it is downright demonic, which calls into question the fact that it may be more than just a simple doctrinal issue (like if baptism can be done as an infant vs adult, etc). It makes me wonder, if they have the core of God's character totally wrong, and they themselves rejoice in the idea of their enemies being tormented forever, can they be truly Christian, since they are not worshiping the true God and following Jesus's teachings regarding loving enemies, etc.
I agree with everything you say eaglesway, except I look at "the Gospel" this way;
the overarching gospel may include many things, as long as they're absolutely scriptural, accurately interpreted, whatever the truth of God is, including the concept/doctrine of UR.
However, I believe the most succinct message of the Gospel is this, as Paul said in I Cor. 1; "Jesus Christ, crucified, risen again".
Blessings.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 29, 2015, 04:07:14 AM
A couple of my thoughts:
It says in the bible that teachers will be judged more harshly than others, so I wonder if hellfire preachers, who covert some people out of fear of being tortured forever, but lose others who think that they could never believe in that kind of God, fall under this category
When I hear of the imagery that these preachers/believers talk about, it is downright demonic, which calls into question the fact that it may be more than just a simple doctrinal issue (like if baptism can be done as an infant vs adult, etc). It makes me wonder, if they have the core of God's character totally wrong, and they themselves rejoice in the idea of their enemies being tormented forever, can they be truly Christian, since they are not worshiping the true God and following Jesus's teachings regarding loving enemies, etc.
I believe you make a strong point, and I believe there are surely some extremes, outliers, etc. that could fall into what you describe. Also, I'd say discernment is good re: who we listen to, what we absorb, who we associate with, etc. However, having been raised in hell-fire environment, attending Assembly of God, little independent, and Baptist churches for over 50 years, my suggestion would be that those who actually revel and "enjoy" such things, is by far the minority. Most people don't like the idea of hell (although they cling to it religiously). What I believe is though, they do so because they truly believe they're being faithful to God and the scriptures by doing so. And that by not believing it, they're rejecting part of the Bible and God's instructions/requirements. I just think (generally) we ought to be very careful about (not that you're necessarily doing so) declaring someone not a believer or Christian because they believe in ET. I just don't see myself ever accepting that approach, because again, the primary Gospel is "Jesus Christ, crucified, risen again". :) :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on October 29, 2015, 04:23:07 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 29, 2015, 04:07:14 AM
A couple of my thoughts:
It says in the bible that teachers will be judged more harshly than others, so I wonder if hellfire preachers, who covert some people out of fear of being tortured forever, but lose others who think that they could never believe in that kind of God, fall under this category
When I hear of the imagery that these preachers/believers talk about, it is downright demonic, which calls into question the fact that it may be more than just a simple doctrinal issue (like if baptism can be done as an infant vs adult, etc). It makes me wonder, if they have the core of God's character totally wrong, and they themselves rejoice in the idea of their enemies being tormented forever, can they be truly Christian, since they are not worshiping the true God and following Jesus's teachings regarding loving enemies, etc.
I believe you make a strong point, and I believe there are surely some extremes, outliers, etc. that could fall into what you describe. Also, I'd say discernment is good re: who we listen to, what we absorb, who we associate with, etc. However, having been raised in hell-fire environment, attending Assembly of God, little independent, and Baptist churches for over 50 years, my suggestion would be that those who actually revel and "enjoy" such things, is by far the minority. Most people don't like the idea of hell (although they cling to it religiously). What I believe is though, they do so because they truly believe they're being faithful to God and the scriptures by doing so. And that by not believing it, they're rejecting part of the Bible and God's instructions/requirements. I just think (generally) we ought to be very careful about (not that you're necessarily doing so) declaring someone not a believer or Christian because they believe in ET. I just don't see myself ever accepting that approach, because again, the primary Gospel is "Jesus Christ, crucified, risen again". :) :2c:
Thanks for your thoughts! I don't make a habit of determining who I think is "saved" or "Christian" but in the extreme example of the type of person that I cite above, it was just my initial thoughts. I do agree that many people (the majority of Christians in fact) believe in hell but do so because it is a teaching they have grown up with, they think it's biblical, etc. Some either desperately try to convert others because they don't want anyone to end up there, or others seem to just push the hell idea out of their minds. It's the third group, and thank God they are in the minority, that seem to think hell glorifies God and all the saints will be pleased to see those in hell being tortured, that I am talking about.
:handshake:
Certainly Christ crucified is the core of the gospel message. But that message is betrayed(imo) by the hell heresy for many,many people, who cannot see Christ crucified and Christ torturing millions or billions eternally as a possible truth(and they are right). They need bold witnesses to demolish that tower and stronghold that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God. While I kno that God loves everyone...every Baptist or Pentecostal or Catholic, etc. - and I believe everyone who knows Jesus as crucified, resurrected and Lord is reconciled, nevertheless the proclaiming of eternal torment is a false message that defiles the precious ointment. I rejoice that the full gospel is beginning to be proclaimed in the world, and restored to the church at large.
:thumbsup:
The sermon reminds me of one thing... people are weird! :laughing7:
Is universal reconciliation being preached more often?
Quote from: marie glen on October 29, 2015, 05:01:13 PM
The sermon reminds me of one thing... people are weird! :laughing7:
When you're strange, people remember your name... :laughing7:
A light on a hill can be seen for miles in the darkness. :dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on October 29, 2015, 05:01:13 PM
The sermon reminds me of one thing... people are weird! :laughing7:
:first:
Yes. Yes we are. :NewB1:
Quote from: Aerex on October 29, 2015, 07:45:23 PM
Is universal reconciliation being preached more often?
Definitely. Even ETrs are preaching it indirectly by speaking more about us heretics :o)
Either hell is real or not, preaching hell in order to bring people to conversion is only a silly thing. If the believe, they do it because they're scared, so is it a real "new birth". Otherwise, they will run away from church for fear. So, how is it useful? And especially in Edward's case, who led many people to suicide (but of course this is never said), hell was used only to terrorize! What kind of a preacher is it? If I were among the elder, I'd surely try to kick him out of my church.
Even if you believe in ET, you're welcomed in my church... but not if you use it as a means to convert people! No wonder many nowadays believe religion is only for sick.
Pastors should bark less and love more...
Preachers like Jonathan Edwards show what the doctrine of eternal torment really is when the veil of love and freedom is taken away. Personally, if people believe that doctrine, I would rather them preach it in raw form than to wrap it up in a pretty package like we often see in modern Evangelicalism.
Good Point
`
Quote from: Graph1159 on November 07, 2015, 09:53:43 PM
Preachers like Jonathan Edwards show what the doctrine of eternal torment really is when the veil of love and freedom is taken away. Personally, if people believe that doctrine, I would rather them preach it in raw form than to wrap it up in a pretty package like we often see in modern Evangelicalism.
I agree. When I heard the first 'unwrapped' version of ET, that first plunged me in a deep depresssion, actually confronting me with my own doctrines. After a few weeks God showed me His glorious plan. In my case this particular sermon really helped me in the end, though not in the way the preacher meant it. I also found it very honest and I respect the preacher for it. He really takes hell serious and as far as I have seen and heard, he is giving his life to get people saved from hell. If you really believe it, you should act like it and run around warning everyone, and he is doing that.