do universalists believe that jesus is god? if not why not?
Laz does. Unitarian Universalists - maybe not.
Hi Cranny,
This site does not embrace Unitarian Universalism/all religions/versions of God lead to salvation/eternal life etc. Jesus Christ is Lord and the only name given under heaven through which a person may be saved. As far as Jesus being God and the general topic of the Godhead, there is a thread for that discussion where you could read the range of opinions held by different members of the site. I have to find it tho, will post it tomoro sometime. It is a "hot-button" issue that gets divisive, so it would be better for you peruse the thread than hav the discussion renewed here. Thanks, John
Jehovah's witnesses believe Jesus is not God, due to the fact Judaism is monotheistic. But I don't really agree with that interpretation.
Sorry I forgot to post this.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/)
There is a LOT of opinion and discussion and theory on the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost in this thread, if you have the patience to wade through it.
Quote from: cranny on August 29, 2014, 05:37:04 AM
do universalists believe that jesus is god? if not why not?
Define God.....
If you are meaning trinity, then my answer is that there is zero support for that in the Bible.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2014, 03:21:04 PM
Quote from: cranny on August 29, 2014, 05:37:04 AM
do universalists believe that jesus is god? if not why not?
Define God.....
If you are meaning trinity, then my answer is that there is zero support for that in the Bible.
:2c:
OH the mystery, and still not understanding clearly
I do not know much at all , but this ...........
just as, origin has a clear and simple , yet perfect meaning , so does Jesus Christ as being the WORD OF GOD / that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD and origin , to understand the description in words and their '' ROOT '' meanings , we can see from scriptures Just how Jesus was created and come out of God , something hidden being revealed to us and ,
THIS NAME alone has power over sin/error and its origin
the devil lies and death by murder Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally
this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).As the loss of a human being may inflict grief upon the individuals close to
the victim, and the commission of a murder is highly detrimental to the good order within society, most societies both present and in antiquity have considered it a most serious crime worthy of the harshest of punishment. In most countries, a person convicted of murder is typically given a long prison sentence, possibly a life sentence where permitted, and in some countries, the death penalty may be imposed for such an act – though this practice is becoming less common.[1]
now these are the terms used to describe in plain English , but we know in the old testament it was a death sentence if you killed and the devil /satan
was going to cause suffering and death
But we know now by the new Jesus Christ has the power over death and does show us death has no power over HIM for He brings back to LIFE AGAIN from death ...
or·i·gin
ˈôrəjən/Submit
noun
1.
the point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived.
"a novel theory about the origin of oil"
synonyms: beginning, start, commencement, origination, genesis, birth, dawning, dawn, emergence, creation, birthplace, cradle; source, basis, cause, root(s); formal radix
So is Jesus God ?
though origin YES!
Says He was Sent , but He did come out of God , so its this a part or piece of God manifested to SHOW us God , If you have seen me , you have seen the Father
You cannot see a Spirit with a natural eye , you can only see the results of a Spirit , described like the Wind /breath , you can see its power when it blows across a field the blades of grass move , as we move
or water when the wind blows it ripples and has movement to the outer most edges
or in cities when the wind moves with force it tears down and moves with great force what is standing and scatters its contents abroad
We can see in the weather all the time and in Job we can tell its the Lord and His Voice moving all things in His power and glory and some in Revelation
The Stir of the Spirit moves things out of its place ...
Quote from: cranny on August 29, 2014, 05:37:04 AM
do universalists believe that jesus is god? if not why not?
Hey cranny.
Some universalists are trinitarian.
Some universalists are not trinitarian.
I've been in both camps and have seen Christ as Lord in both camps.
Those who hold to the trinity do so because they are convinced by scripture. Those who hold to non-trinity do so because they are convinced by scripture.
The key is that doctrine does not lord over the follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is lord, and doctrine is not.
The reason that the debate goes on is the ever present carnal desire to make doctrine lord.
There are good studies in both directions and I am sure they are findable on the internet.
Those who hold that Jesus Christ is not God, hold that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was born into the world, suffered as man, was without sin, died for the sins of the world, is risen, and ever present at the right hand of God, and in the believer, through the Holy Spirit. Sounds a lot like trinity but, distinctly not.
God is a deity, a title, not a name. At least that is how I understand it.
Quote from: ed on September 07, 2014, 05:57:18 PM
Quote from: cranny on August 29, 2014, 05:37:04 AM
do universalists believe that jesus is god? if not why not?
Hey cranny.
Some universalists are trinitarian.
Some universalists are not trinitarian.
I've been in both camps and have seen Christ as Lord in both camps.
Those who hold to the trinity do so because they are convinced by scripture. Those who hold to non-trinity do so because they are convinced by scripture.
The key is that doctrine does not lord over the follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is lord, and doctrine is not.
The reason that the debate goes on is the ever present carnal desire to make doctrine lord.
There are good studies in both directions and I am sure they are findable on the internet.
Those who hold that Jesus Christ is not God, hold that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was born into the world, suffered as man, was without sin, died for the sins of the world, is risen, and ever present at the right hand of God, and in the believer, though the Holy Spirit. Sounds a lot like trinity but is distinctly not.
well said Ed as usual :thumbsup
MARK :28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" 29Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL
! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.
Father I are one John 10 ...29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one." 31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
I believe the HOLY SPIRIT is the Father and SON and they are ONE GOD
and LORD / Master of ALL
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2014, 06:34:28 PM
God is a deity, a title, not a name. At least that is how I understand it.
Yes Micah
good thoughts !!
A title and name Just as Jesus Christ ,a name by which is no greater under heaven by which we must be saved
But for me its describing in mere human terms
'' a force to be reckoned with '' causing Change
A force is any influence which tends to change the motion of an object.
[1] In other words, a force can cause an object with mass to change its velocity (which includes to begin moving from a state of rest), i.e., to accelerate. Force can also be described by intuitive concepts such as a push or a pull. A force has both magnitude and direction, making it a vector quantity. It is measured in the SI unit of newtons and represented by the symbol F.
The original form of Newton's second law states that the net force acting upon an object is equal to the rate at which its momentum changes with time. If the mass of the object is constant, this law implies that the acceleration of an object is directly proportional to the net force acting on the object,
is in the direction of the net force, and is inversely proportional to the mass of the object. As a formula, this is expressed as:
\vec{F} = m \vec{a}
where the arrows imply a vector quantity possessing both magnitude and direction.
Related concepts to force include: thrust, which increases the velocity of an object; drag, which decreases the velocity of an object;
and torque which produces changes in rotational speed of an object.
In an extended body, each part usually applies forces on the adjacent parts; the distribution of such forces through the body is the so-called mechanical stress. Pressure is a simple type of stress. Stress usually causes deformation of solid materials, or flow in fluids.
Quote from: cranny on August 29, 2014, 05:37:04 AM
do universalists believe that jesus is god? if not why not?
Jesus is the son of God, He is the son of man, He is one with the Father. We can get a tired brain trying to understand God since he is infinite. I assume we will eventually come to know Him better and better but never completely.
Quote from: bushy on September 07, 2014, 08:52:23 PM
Quote from: cranny on August 29, 2014, 05:37:04 AM
do universalists believe that jesus is god? if not why not?
Jesus is the son of God, He is the son of man, He is one with the Father. We can get a tired brain trying to understand God since he is infinite. I assume we will eventually come to know Him better and better but never completely.
:thumbsup: I do believe there is a heavenly language and knowledge that one day we can all experience !!!
but for now faith seems to be very precious to God in the here and now and no human terms comes close to knowing fully the Glory of God
If you really want to be a Trinitarian, consider that Father + Son + Holy Spirit = three. Further, since the Revelation says there are Seven Spirits, then Father + Son + Spirits = Nine. A Trinity of Trinities. I believe God to be multi-layered and multi-dimensional.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2014, 06:34:28 PM
God is a deity, a title, not a name. At least that is how I understand it.
Imo when referring to YHWH, God is more than a title.
Isaiah 65:16 Whoever invokes a blessing in the land will do so by the one true God; whoever takes an oath in the land will swear by
the one true God. For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you,
the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 Thess. 1:9 They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2014, 07:46:45 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 07, 2014, 06:34:28 PM
God is a deity, a title, not a name. At least that is how I understand it.
Imo when referring to YHWH, God is more than a title.
Isaiah 65:16 Whoever invokes a blessing in the land will do so by the one true God; whoever takes an oath in the land will swear by the one true God. For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 Thess. 1:9 They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
I don't see how that changes God from a title, God is deity. JEHOVAH God.
Deu 6:4 `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;
Baal was a god, Dagon was a god.
2Co 4:4 in whom
the god of this age ....
For me a key passage is Colossians 1:15-16
"He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created" (NRSV).
Notice that it says Jesus is THE image of the invisible God. God is invisible and beyond our comprehension, and there is nobody other than Jesus who fully represents God in a way that creation can see or relate to. This is why worshiping Jesus is not idolatry. The problem with idolatry is that it takes an element of creation which only partially represents God and treats it as if it is fully God (Romans 1:23).
The idea I see in Col. 1 is that Jesus is the complete representation of The Father. I don't make any claims beyond this, and I believe this is the only thing you have to accept about Christ's essence to be faithful to the Scriptures. Trinitarians go a step further and say that Jesus = God the Father = The Holy Spirit, but there are three persons. I don't know if that relationship is true or not, but I don't think it's necessary to know for sure.
Quote from: Graph1159 on September 08, 2014, 09:56:21 PM
For me a key passage is Colossians 1:15-16
"He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created" (NRSV).
Notice that it says Jesus is THE image of the invisible God. God is invisible and beyond our comprehension, and there is nobody other than Jesus who fully represents God in a way that creation can see or relate to. This is why worshiping Jesus is not idolatry. The problem with idolatry is that it takes an element of creation which only partially represents God and treats it as if it is fully God (Romans 1:23).
The idea I see in Col. 1 is that Jesus is the complete representation of The Father. I don't make any claims beyond this, and I believe this is the only thing you have to accept about Christ's essence to be faithful to the Scriptures. Trinitarians go a step further and say that Jesus = God the Father = The Holy Spirit, but there are three persons. I don't know if that relationship is true or not, but I don't think it's necessary to know for sure.
Thanks , great verses and good and clear Graph , well said . :thumbsup:
Quote from: Graph1159 on September 08, 2014, 09:56:21 PM
For me a key passage is Colossians 1:15-16
"He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created" (NRSV).
Notice that it says Jesus is THE image of the invisible God. God is invisible and beyond our comprehension, and there is nobody other than Jesus who fully represents God in a way that creation can see or relate to. This is why worshiping Jesus is not idolatry. The problem with idolatry is that it takes an element of creation which only partially represents God and treats it as if it is fully God (Romans 1:23).
The idea I see in Col. 1 is that Jesus is the complete representation of The Father. I don't make any claims beyond this, and I believe this is the only thing you have to accept about Christ's essence to be faithful to the Scriptures. Trinitarians go a step further and say that Jesus = God the Father = The Holy Spirit, but there are three persons. I don't know if that relationship is true or not, but I don't think it's necessary to know for sure.
Don't want to get into this trinity thing again, but simply do a search and see how many times God or the Holy Spirit is called a "person." :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 08, 2014, 11:04:29 PM
Quote from: Graph1159 on September 08, 2014, 09:56:21 PM
For me a key passage is Colossians 1:15-16
"He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created" (NRSV).
Notice that it says Jesus is THE image of the invisible God. God is invisible and beyond our comprehension, and there is nobody other than Jesus who fully represents God in a way that creation can see or relate to. This is why worshiping Jesus is not idolatry. The problem with idolatry is that it takes an element of creation which only partially represents God and treats it as if it is fully God (Romans 1:23).
The idea I see in Col. 1 is that Jesus is the complete representation of The Father. I don't make any claims beyond this, and I believe this is the only thing you have to accept about Christ's essence to be faithful to the Scriptures. Trinitarians go a step further and say that Jesus = God the Father = The Holy Spirit, but there are three persons. I don't know if that relationship is true or not, but I don't think it's necessary to know for sure.
Don't want to get into this trinity thing again, but simply do a search and see how many times God or the Holy Spirit is called a "person." :dsunny:
:thumbsup:
I dont think it is 3 separate beings or persons Micah
long ago a group of folks went into many scriptures and found
a very wonderful lot of scriptures that cleared up alot of things
It was to do with God was always ONE and with Jesus and when Jesus was
sent here as a human / son of man , many try to discredit that Jesus was even here as a human being , but I believe He was
and during the time Jesus walked the earth , the Holy Spirit was not given , till Jesus
returned to the Father and the HOLY SPIRIT was breathed on the disciples when Jesus come back in Spirit form to bring in the new covenant /witness and make it a reality
Now the Father and Son Jesus Christ the Word made flesh , but now its not the same flesh and Those gathered into God are the HOLY SPIRIT /Spirit of TRUTH
I wish I had saved all those verses and the studies
I just quickly put up the jest of it
It may not make sense the way I explained it :sigh: I do struggle with wording things
Now if one was wanting to search for themselves they may also come to the same conclusion
Quote from: eaglesway on September 06, 2014, 07:06:52 AM
Sorry I forgot to post this.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/)
There is a LOT of opinion and discussion and theory on the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost in this thread, if you have the patience to wade through it.
The Trinity versus Whatever discussion was a banned topic for a long time. Eventually, there were a couple threads opened up where the discussion was allowed on the condition that it stayed congenial- which of course it didnt. This discussion HAS been congenial to this point- but still, I see no need for rehashing the Godhead discussion here. I posted the thread where I feel it was most completely hashed, and I would suggest if someone is curious they go to that thread and read it. I would also suggest that is anyone wants to discuss it further, they continue the discussion there, so that we dont go all redundant here. :o)
For you via EW and for you to pursue if you wish. http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/re-here's-something-i-just-read/
wow , over a year ago Micah !! :Chinscratch: I remember that , many , many pages ..