http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/16365-is-the-great-falling-away-already-underway
It's better if you just read the whole article because I am tired and my brain's not functioning properly today, so I may not do an adequate job of getting across what this woman Jennifer LeClair is saying, but the fear of Hell has creeped back into my life.
Isaaih40;1 Comfort ye,comfort ye my people. Speak comfortably to Jerusalem. Cry unto her...
her warfare is accomplished,her iniquity pardoned,for she hath received of the Lord's hand
double for all her sin.
Isaaih 57;16 I will NOT contend forever,neither will I always be wroth,for the spirit should
fail before me and the souls which I have made. For the iniquity of his covetnous I was wroth
and smote him.I hid my face in wrath and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his way and I will heal him. I will lead him and restore comforts unto him and
his mourners. Peace,peace to him that is far off[prodigals] and him that is near,and
I WILL HEAL HIM.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 04, 2014, 02:26:07 AM
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/16365-is-the-great-falling-away-already-underway
It's better if you just read the whole article because I am tired and my brain's not functioning properly today, so I may not do an adequate job of getting across what this woman Jennifer LeClair is saying, but the fear of Hell has creeped back into my life.
Hi US,
I read the article, but did not see a very compelling argument for the existence of hell or eternal torment. What did you get from the article that troubled you?
Quote from: Seth on June 04, 2014, 06:07:17 AM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 04, 2014, 02:26:07 AM
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/16365-is-the-great-falling-away-already-underway
It's better if you just read the whole article because I am tired and my brain's not functioning properly today, so I may not do an adequate job of getting across what this woman Jennifer LeClair is saying, but the fear of Hell has creeped back into my life.
Hi US,
I read the article, but did not see a very compelling argument for the existence of hell or eternal torment. What did you get from the article that troubled you?
Well this woman spoke of the great falling away. Universalism is becoming more prevalent, and the end times are often spoke of being in the near future. You know she said UR is part of the "Great. Falling Away", so if it becomes more prevalent does that mean it isn't true because either lines up with the Great Falling Away spoken of.
QuoteYou know she said UR is part of the "Great. Falling Away",
I can just as well claim UR is part of "in the last days knowledge will increase"
Or the growing amount of muslims is the falling away.
Or the protestants leaving RCC church.
Atheism grows.
Or all converted 1st century Jews converting back to Judasism halfway the 1st century.
Etc Etc
My point is that the author said nothing. She quotes a few verses and then just assumes something.
She can beleive what she wants I beleive what I want. But the gift of the holy spirit. The promise of the father. I am a son of God. And we will see when the time comes who was right
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 04, 2014, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 04, 2014, 06:07:17 AM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 04, 2014, 02:26:07 AM
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/16365-is-the-great-falling-away-already-underway
It's better if you just read the whole article because I am tired and my brain's not functioning properly today, so I may not do an adequate job of getting across what this woman Jennifer LeClair is saying, but the fear of Hell has creeped back into my life.
Hi US,
I read the article, but did not see a very compelling argument for the existence of hell or eternal torment. What did you get from the article that troubled you?
Well this woman spoke of the great falling away. Universalism is becoming more prevalent, and the end times are often spoke of being in the near future. You know she said UR is part of the "Great. Falling Away", so if it becomes more prevalent does that mean it isn't true because either lines up with the Great Falling Away spoken of.
The term "Universalism" is not descriptive of "ultimate reconciliation". There is only one way to be reconciled- by the blood of the cross of Jesus Christ.(Colossians chapter 1). "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." This is the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor 4 and Hebrews 1). Hell is a bad translation of the word sheol(grave).
People criticize what they dont understand because they love religion and condemnation, and because they dont have the spirit of truth. A careful study f the scriptures shows the absolute undeniability of the salvation of all. :o)
If the salvation of all is not true, then all these verses and more must be cut out of the bible, which would mean the bible is a worthless myth.
Eph 1:9-11
Col.1:16-21
1 John 2:2
1 Tim 2:4
Ro. 8:18-25,11:36
1 Cor 15;23-28
Phil 2;10,11
Rev 5:13
Behold, I am making all things new !
God loves us completely and has sanctified us through the blood of His Son .
To go through that process and then hope He has got it right is unfortunately what such religions are promoting.
God knew what he was doing before the world began.
His plan is in stages of development, jut like we plan things in stages. Main difference is His wisdom exceeds all of man's attempts.
IMO in the last days many will fall away because the teachings they have assumed were correct will be exposed as incorrect and they will not be able to provide real answers to why we are here in the first place.
Hey US!
That article needs proof read. It has the reference as 1 Thessalonians.
2Thessalonians
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Paul expected it in his day........or soon after his departure.
Whatever Paul was talking about has already happened.
There are falling aways. I've had mine. I've had some great ones. :laughing7:
The Lord is always in charge and we need not fear, be troubled, or shaken in our minds. This is just another time for you to learn to trust and let patience have it's perfect work in you.
:2c: ain't worth a dime. :thumbsup:
some good things being said here and just popped in to say , thanks ed !!! well said
when you see the man of sin exposed that son of perdition / certain loss & destruction
for me its falling from the grace of God , the gift is Jesus Christ '' Himself'', to make everything right with God again , to restore and rebuild and make new ... All Things in Chist !!! we have no righteousness of our own , nor give to the devil any glory or power to persuade us
for me the devil is a beast on a short leash , that CAN DO NOTHING without Gods consent , nor can we for that matter EVERYTHING IS AND BELONGS TO GOD ONLY ! HE ALONE DESERVES Pre·em·i·nence
/prēˈemənəns/ noun
1.the fact of surpassing all others; superiority. Fearing God is the beginning of true wisdom the end is to be in total and complete AWE and unbounded GLORY in all our lives !!GOD is in complete control ... NLT version
if Christ though the HOLY SPIRIT is guiding us by faith in HIS POWER ALONE we have something to boast about
its sooooooooo hard to unlearn what Babylon teaches and be taught again of God , Jesus was always correcting his students the 12 on how we must trust in the SPIRIT OF THE HOLY FATHER and not mans wisdom
Jesus went to the harlots and tax collecters first , they were unlearns and teachable .... Jesus though He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel ,
but they learned the ways of man and glorified themselves and not God with the doctrines of devils , and had to unlearn everything to start over , JESUS MAKES ALL THINGS NEW !and in Christ is the only way to please God , because God sent the Son as a gift of great grace to overcome the world to all of mankind , the most important thing to preach and teach to me is GOD IS LOVE AND HE LOVES YOU and made you for His own glory , honor and praise !!
Gal 5:1 So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law.
Gal 5:2 Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 I'll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses.
Gal 5:4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace.
Gal 5:5 But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us.
Gal 5:6 For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.
Gal 5:7 You were running the race so well. Who has held you back from following the truth?
Gal 5:8 It certainly isn't God, for he is the one who called you to freedom.
Gal 5:9 This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough!
Gal 5:10 I am trusting the Lord to keep you from believing false teachings. God will judge that person, whoever he is, who has been confusing you.
Gal 5:11 Dear brothers and sisters, [fn] if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised—as some say I do—why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended.
Gal 5:12 I just wish that those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would mutilate themselves. [fn]
Gal 5:13 For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don't use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love.
Gal 5:14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." [fn]
Gal 5:15 But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another.
Gal 5:16 So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves.
Gal 5:17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions.
Gal 5:18 But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.
Gal 5:19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!
Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there.
Gal 5:25 Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit's leading in every part of our lives.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.
this passage of scripture is saying alot about how we become slaves to sin /error , by trying to glorify the fleshy carnal hearts of man and not God .... seeing lust and desire from being human to being some self rightous and unteachable beast !!
boasting in what they can do and overcome , and its Christ though the gift of grace by the FATHER HIMSELF that gives and does overcome sin /error , we are to be THANKFUL to GOD and humbled that HE WOULD save us , we cannot do nothing without the Father and the Son though their union of HOLY SPIRIT connection , we are to be gathered into CHRIST [NEWNESS OF LIFE though Him ] we LIVE TO GOD though Christ who strengthens us daily ..and judges whats right in the SIGHT OF GOD
still have not gotten the new computer and windows 8 yet :sigh: but will one day soon, God willing
Do you see the way people honor Jesus in this thread? Satan cannot inspire good fruit. Good fruit comes from a good tree. Universal salvation is the ultimate salvation from sin for all. Such doctrine that speaks against sin cannot be inspired by the author of sin any more than devils can cast out devils.
Quote from: Seth on June 04, 2014, 05:13:53 PM
Do you see the way people honor Jesus in this thread? Satan cannot inspire good fruit. Good fruit comes from a good tree. Universal salvation is the ultimate salvation from sin for all. Such doctrine that speaks against sin cannot be inspired by the author of sin any more than devils can cast out devils.
Yes the tree of LIFE IS THE WISDOM OF GOD WHICH IS CHRIST JESUS !!
1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the
cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1Co 1:30
But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph 1:17 That the
God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may
present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
:HeartThrob:
It seems to me that whatever we focus on will lead either to WORSHIP or WORRY.
Look (focus on) to Jesus ----> worship
Look (focus on) to man (blogs, etc.) ----> worry
WORSHIP vs WORRY
John 4:23-24
v 23 the hour cometh, and now is, when true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
v 24 God is Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Psalm 37:1, 3, 5, 7
v 1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers...
v 3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
v 5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in Him; and He shall bring it to pass.
v 7 REST in the Lord, wait patiently for Him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
Let us pray for one another that we grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ -- Savior of ALL mankind, to HIM be ALL GLORY, both now and forever.
:friendstu: wonderful !! praise God !!!
The great falling away ,
could be seen as a tsunami .
The water falls away from the shore ,only to come back.
The waters then reach higher than they have ever before
IMO--the falling away was just before ad 70
notice when Yahshua told the disciples that when THEY saw all the things he spoke about that the end was at hand.
let me ask all of us a question--if he was referring to us 2k years later---then I ask all of us how are we gonna see the armies compassing about the city(Jerusalem)
you may say by TV---well that is a honorable answer
let me ask you this--if perhaps some of us do see it by tv--then how will you escape out of Jerusalem to the mountains ???this is what Yahshua told them to do when they saw this taking place--the father had supplied a safety in the mountains outside Jerusalem for the Saints to escape too.
we better get our running boots on :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
this took place at 70 ad when the Roman empire surrounded the city and destroyed it with the unbelievers --history records that thtere was not 1 Christian that remained in the city when it was destroyed--they ran to the mountains :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
the last days haved passed my friends (IMO)
Quote from: Seth on June 04, 2014, 05:13:53 PM
Do you see the way people honor Jesus in this thread? Satan cannot inspire good fruit. Good fruit comes from a good tree. Universal salvation is the ultimate salvation from sin for all. Such doctrine that speaks against sin cannot be inspired by the author of sin any more than devils can cast out devils.
I want to believe that, but it isn't easy. There are Greek scholars that believe in eternal torment. I looked up Early Church Fathers and found articles saying that most of them did believe in eternal torment. I have no good way of verifying the truth for myself.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 05, 2014, 02:43:50 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 04, 2014, 05:13:53 PM
Do you see the way people honor Jesus in this thread? Satan cannot inspire good fruit. Good fruit comes from a good tree. Universal salvation is the ultimate salvation from sin for all. Such doctrine that speaks against sin cannot be inspired by the author of sin any more than devils can cast out devils.
I want to believe that, but it isn't easy. There are Greek scholars that believe in eternal torment. I looked up Early Church Fathers and found articles saying that most of them did believe in eternal torment. I have no good way of verifying the truth for myself.
US--whether some believed it or not in the past--you cant go by what others believe--you must search it out for yourself--study to show yourself approved !!!
check out the Hebrew and greek words behind the words we have in our bibles--it will show you the way---ask yourself why is not anything mentioned in the old testament about that subject ?? the apostles all wrote the new testament scriptures and preached from the old testament--how could they possibly come up with that doctrine if its not even in the old testament ???
the old testament records the penalty of Sin as DEATH---NOT eternal torment
you have ample study materials here on tentmaker for words like everlasting and forever--which did not mean eternal--scriptures in the old and new testament bears this out plainly.
I encourage you to seek and study in sincerity and the Father will show you :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 05, 2014, 02:43:50 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 04, 2014, 05:13:53 PM
Do you see the way people honor Jesus in this thread? Satan cannot inspire good fruit. Good fruit comes from a good tree. Universal salvation is the ultimate salvation from sin for all. Such doctrine that speaks against sin cannot be inspired by the author of sin any more than devils can cast out devils.
I want to believe that, but it isn't easy. There are Greek scholars that believe in eternal torment. I looked up Early Church Fathers and found articles saying that most of them did believe in eternal torment. I have no good way of verifying the truth for myself.
for close to 1500 years the Christian Church believed in all kinds of unscriptural things. Things like indulgences, exclusive priesthood, sainthood and praying to saints, praying to Mary, Eucharist, no salvation outside the Catholic church, infant baptism etc...
Protestants came along and challenged those doctrines based on scripture not on what contemporaries believed. A scholar can believe this, another scholar may believe that. The question is, what does the Bible say? since not everyone agrees on what the Bible says, that's what this forum is here for. To discuss that. And if you find that what we say here is scriptural then what we say here is also correct. Its not incorrect or correct based on an article some lady wrote or beliefs a scholar has but based on what the scripture says. So just as FreeAtLast said, test it. See if we can answer the tough questions. If we can, then what does that tell you?
:cloud9: If you haven't read it yet, I recommend you read a long standing and continually being added to, post on here called, "The hard copy snippets from the library of Rodger Tutt." It has comments gleaned from hundreds of people down through the ages, about universal reconciliation. Blessings....
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 04, 2014, 02:26:07 AM
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/16365-is-the-great-falling-away-already-underway
It's better if you just read the whole article because I am tired and my brain's not functioning properly today, so I may not do an adequate job of getting across what this woman Jennifer LeClair is saying, but the fear of Hell has creeped back into my life.
I can only be on here for a moment, so i can't follow the link.. perhaps tomorrow? (idk)
But, whatever she's referring to, a great falling away.. it (surely? and imo) has occurred, a great delusion called the theory of evolution has turned Christendom on its ear... It's evident all around us. We can see the effects by looking at the culture around us.. from "Leave it to Beaver" (60's sitcom) to "Snookie" or rather "Jersey Shore"!! pretty much sums up the culture change due to this false teaching/prophet..
Look at the churches, the young are leaving in droves. why? no Biblical authority and trust anymore, if Genesis isn't right but is myth (as even the 'Christian' universities teach).. well.. take away Biblical authority and we lose.
I love to shut the doors about myself and read only the scripture. Especially of course the New Testament of the New Covenant about which Jesus said "this is the new covenant of my blood" and His most important instructions on the eve of his crucifixion.. the bread (of God) and the (new) wine/Holy Spirit
People love to think and have visions and what not, makes them appear wise.. but what we need is the Word of His covenant. Period, imo.
God bless you dear!! I could write so much more about the Judgment Day scenario, which imbbo (in my biblically based opinion:) will last 500 years... (based on the ancient fall holy days being fulfilled by Jesus' long 2nd advent like his first fulfilled the Spring ones...
God worse than Hitler? I think not. And surely this 'hell' (mistranslated from "the grave" - and the sheol of the OT) blasphemes God's holy, pure and good image eveRy day, aNd makes it SO hard for many to "believe"..
If it was necessary for all to believe before death, than that is exactly what would occur as God is all powerful.. and surely(?) perfect. and, perfect makes no mistakes. Loses nothing. Or else perfect is not perfect. Who can thwart God's will???? (Tho demonic hordes will try to prevent us all from seeing truth.) And not all powerful would also be less than PERFECT.
We're simply aLL learning good from evil which is also life from death.. God iS life... to stray from Him..? Well, can't be done! Can only result in a self destructive puff of smoke, dust and ashes /apocalypse. Unless of course He intervenes, which of course,
He did. :hiya:
God bless you! Give you deep abiding peace.. IJNA. Some great posts in this thread! :))
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2014, 04:07:14 AM
:cloud9: If you haven't read it yet, I recommend you read a long standing and continually being added to, post on here called, "The hard copy snippets from the library of Rodger Tutt." It has comments gleaned from hundreds of people down through the ages, about universal reconciliation. Blessings....
(p.s.)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Here is another great learning tool for the greek and Hebrew words behind scriptures in our bibles----
\
http://christadelphianstudies.net/Notes/Bible%20Marking/World%20in%20the%20NT%20BM.pdf
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2014, 03:24:12 AM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 05, 2014, 02:43:50 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 04, 2014, 05:13:53 PM
Do you see the way people honor Jesus in this thread? Satan cannot inspire good fruit. Good fruit comes from a good tree. Universal salvation is the ultimate salvation from sin for all. Such doctrine that speaks against sin cannot be inspired by the author of sin any more than devils can cast out devils.
I want to believe that, but it isn't easy. There are Greek scholars that believe in eternal torment. I looked up Early Church Fathers and found articles saying that most of them did believe in eternal torment. I have no good way of verifying the truth for myself.
for close to 1500 years the Christian Church believed in all kinds of unscriptural things. Things like indulgences, exclusive priesthood, sainthood and praying to saints, praying to Mary, Eucharist, no salvation outside the Catholic church, infant baptism etc...
Protestants came along and challenged those doctrines based on scripture not on what contemporaries believed. A scholar can believe this, another scholar may believe that. The question is, what does the Bible say? since not everyone agrees on what the Bible says, that's what this forum is here for. To discuss that. And if you find that what we say here is scriptural then what we say here is also correct. Its not incorrect or correct based on an article some lady wrote or beliefs a scholar has but based on what the scripture says. So just as FreeAtLast said, test it. See if we can answer the tough questions. If we can, then what does that tell you?
I am satisfied with the answers you give me, until I test them. Then when I test them, all arguments presented for UR are refuted. I do my best to find scriptures, but their are so many different translations out their that is hard to find ones that line up with each other. I downloaded a bible app that compares two bibles that I now realize is worthless because of one that blatantly contradicts the other.
Give me an example of the refutation
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2014, 05:57:55 AM
Give me an example of the refutation
Sorry I didn't mean anything you have written has been directly refuted. However, you do have a link on your site to L. Ray Smith's site (may he rest in peace) and tektonics.org wrote a whole article refuting him. I go through so many websites a day that things get jumbled in my head. You might say I have an obsession with the subject because of my many short comings. Anyways L Ray smith says an adjective (aionios) can't have a greater meaning than the noun (aion). They argue that it can and use time (noun) and timeless (adjective). I assume you believe L Ray Smith had the truth since you has a link to one of his articles on your website.
It depends on the suffix you use.
The word "less" changes the word entirely because it adds a new word "less" to the word "time." However, when you use a suffix that means "of or related to" like the English suffix "-ian" than for the most part Smith is correct. Here is an example. "Italian" does not encompass "Australian," because the "-ian" relates to Italy, meaning "of or relating to Italy" not Australia. I think that is the kind of adjective Smith is talking about.
If we simply go by the anatomy of the word "Aionios" means "of or relating to aion" because the anatomy of the word is "aion" and "ios." The suffix "ios" means "of or relating to" as well.
Anyhow, a word can mean anything, which is why words can change over time. What's important to me is what the Bible authors MEANT by using the word. The New Testament is not strictly a Greek language writing. It's a Greek translation of Hebrew concepts. The Jewish writers (Paul, James, John, Peter), therefore, needed to choose a word closest to their own "Olam."
This is why it doesn't matter what Greek scholars think about "aionios" and it doesn't even matter what Greek people think about it. What matters is what the Holy Scripture says about it, from Genesis to Revelation.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 05, 2014, 02:43:50 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 04, 2014, 05:13:53 PM
Do you see the way people honor Jesus in this thread? Satan cannot inspire good fruit. Good fruit comes from a good tree. Universal salvation is the ultimate salvation from sin for all. Such doctrine that speaks against sin cannot be inspired by the author of sin any more than devils can cast out devils.
I want to believe that, but it isn't easy. There are Greek scholars that believe in eternal torment. I looked up Early Church Fathers and found articles saying that most of them did believe in eternal torment. I have no good way of verifying the truth for myself.
Greetings US,
www.angelfire.com/empire/freespirit/Prevailing-Universalism/PrevailingUniversalism.pdf (http://www.angelfire.com/empire/freespirit/Prevailing-Universalism/PrevailingUniversalism.pdf)
You may have read the above fascinating document which goes into depth concerning the early Church fathers (and the prevailing thought of the times). I used it to discuss this very issue with some Roman Catholics and (conservative) Anglican priests a number of years ago, and so added navigation links to help them move around this large .pdf document (I thought that perhaps others may find this navigation helpful).
With gratitude to John .W. Hanson in service of the loving Saviour.
Also, if required, I justified and bookmarked references in the following book by the same author:
www.angelfire.com/empire/freespirit/Prevailing-Universalism/aion-aionios-rev.hanson.pdf (http://www.angelfire.com/empire/freespirit/Prevailing-Universalism/aion-aionios-rev.hanson.pdf)
I hope and pray that all those who are unsure of this issue can make the knowledge and truth of the All-Loving Supreme Being their own. Certainly, the mind of man is able to invent some strange theories which become "truth" after a while. All things of God and Christ are simple.
The cause of darkness must be removed by the Light in order to permit the greater Light to enter in.
Peace, Rest, Service - they can be as one.
Sure there's plenty of arguments against Universal Reconciliation and Repentance.. But there are refutations of their refutations. :laughing7:
God, surely is Perfect. To say He is less is surely an insult. How does losing 2/3's of what you have created and formed, perfection? Surely "perfect" makes no mistakes. Loses nothing.
'Hell' is a grievous blasphemy against His pure and holy nature and character, making Him out to be worse than all hitler types. "Our joy will be full" as a loved one writhes in unimaginable flesh melting agony for ever and ever?
Why is there a second resurrection. Why not just let them perish? why the need to wake them up and torture them for ever, without relief ever? "We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is" - "He is love" and are we not told to reflect His love character? In Old Testament days of cruel 'gods' of sex rites, and (resulting) babe sacrifice (live babes into fire) of course His 'wrath' (which actually is not anger according to the Hebrew, but nevertheless) was stirred! It makes me downright angry, and I didn't have to witness it all!
Besides, what did God say about that practice of living beings put into fire? "This did not come from me! It never rose up in MY heart." (what??)
For every verse which to some seems to imply 'hell' - they are so easily explained!
If Jesus, as is supposed, did during His three days in the grave, preach to those in 'hell'.. what the heck for?
Actually that verse says He preached via the Spirit while the ark was being prepared..
The angels which left their first place and are now in chains of darkness/tartarus(the Greek) awaiting judgment?
- - Once they left their state of Perfection (at one with God/Life/Perfection) they became im-perfect, the opposite of life, thus are awaiting, and are locked into judgment/results, for im-perfection cannot change its course and become perfect.
How is Lucifer's resulting place described in Isaiah 14? worms for his bed and maggots as a covering.
"Hades" is the Greek word and idea.. but the "place of the dead" is still the lower part of the earth, namely, the dust of the grave.
Gehenna of course, was Jerusalem's town dump where the bodies of criminals were thrown and the fires were never let to go out. The purveyors of 'hell' should take note of our Lord's words about not offending any little ones.. for they keep so many away from the faith by this grievous and most insulting and blasphemous error.
Rev 20:14 (Young's Literal Translation) "and death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;" - just when did death become another form of life and living?? (hades, "the place of the dead" is the grave.. which will be no more..)
"He makes aLL things new"
Colossians 1:20 "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." (NKJ) hello? how does this verse get so ignored? do we want there to be a 'hell'...??
Timothy 4:10 - "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
from Psalm 22:27-29 "All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
for dominion belongs to the Lord
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—"
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess "Jesus is Lord".
1 Corinthians 15:22
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
(New International Version)
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
all these verses are but a small sample..
Jesus said "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." Italics indicate added word by the translators.. (NKJ)
Young's Literal - "and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself."
"All (will remember and) turn to the LORD"
Peace! and God bless!! :Peace2: :smile: (I intended a very short post.. oh well.)
Fiery judgment is results and consequences which occur upon earth..
P.S - the "falling away" er, is all around us!? the result of a (STRONG) delusion that men are apes.. yet the highest power!
...I think the falling away can not be correctly discerned apart from the 'Word of God' and I also
think many can not discern what it is correctly..and judge before the proper time in error.
my people perish through a lack of knowledge[Lord,Lord did we not expel demons...?]
in the old testament..the test of jealousy on a wife was conducted...and if found 'turning away' from
her husband,to another[adultery/imorality/idlatry]..her thigh would fall away and rot..and her belly would swell.
it is this very thing that Jesus Christ deals with in His letter to the church in THytaria.
He fulfills the law in the spirit and examines His flock,counsel's and judges.
In Laodecia He spews out of His mouth[spits in the face/rejects] and they must remain out of the
camp for 7 days like Miriam. If they heed His counsel..the very spit of His mouth will open their
eyes and be a salve unto their blindness.
1 Timothy 4;1-5 here are some doctrines of demons that some fall away to. forbiding to marry
and certain foods. Jezebel encourages the eating of food offered to these demons/idols.
also..Jezebel..kills the rightful owner of the vineyard to seize it..and has false prophets of
Baal/Lord......Baal loved to burn the children in fire[so beware hellfire teachings.] it never entered
God's heart..and Jesus told the sons of thunder when they asked should they call down fire
from heaven..Jesus told them..'ye know not what spirit ye are of"
......He counsels the churches,commends those who 'tested those who claimed to be apostles
and found them false." Paul spoke of these 'superfine' false-apstle's,too.........
Deut 13;1-5 law...Jesus fulfills it in spirit
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 05, 2014, 06:26:43 AM
I go through so many websites a day that things get jumbled in my head. You might say I have an obsession with the subject because of my many short comings.
Maybe you are trying to feel secure by being good enough, to get rid of your short comings to be sure you are accepted. I have many short comings too and don't like it a bit but have given up on making God happy with me by being good enough. It's hopeless. But be sure and know He is working on you to bring you to where He wants you. Something I heard once that stuck in my mind- "you can never do anything that will make God love you more and you can never do anything that will make God love you less." Might as well relax and enjoy His gift to you.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 04, 2014, 02:26:07 AM
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/16365-is-the-great-falling-away-already-underway
It's better if you just read the whole article because I am tired and my brain's not functioning properly today, so I may not do an adequate job of getting across what this woman Jennifer LeClair is saying, but the fear of Hell has creeped back into my life.
Dear UniversalSceptic,
I can sympathize with your situation because I have been there myself. Everytime I would read an article that mentioned the word hell and how according to false teachers most of us would end up there, I would be filled with fear and doubt.
Though it didn't happen overnight, God did eventually open my mind to understanding the scriptures. I can't overstate the importance of having a good translation of the bible. I used to believe the Authorized Version (King James) bible was infallible. The KJV just reinforced the false "Hell Doctrine" that I used to believe. After much searching, God led me to the Concordant Literal Version (CLV) of the New Testament. Now whenever I study and read the scriptures I compare the CLV next to the KJV and I can clearly see how some of the mistranslations in the KJV had previously led me to the false belief of eternal torment or hell. Through much reading and studying the scriptures based on an accurate translation, my faith and understading has become so much greater, that now whenever I read an article such as the one referenced in your original post, anything unscriptural I can easily discern as being false. Yes, the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword.
Knowing and believing the scriptures builds faith and is essential for discernment:
CLV Hb 4:12 For the word of God is living and operative, and keener above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart.
May your faith grow through the word of God.
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2014, 06:45:54 AM
It depends on the suffix you use.
The word "less" changes the word entirely because it adds a new word "less" to the word "time." However, when you use a suffix that means "of or related to" like the English suffix "-ian" than for the most part Smith is correct. Here is an example. "Italian" does not encompass "Australian," because the "-ian" relates to Italy, meaning "of or relating to Italy" not Australia. I think that is the kind of adjective Smith is talking about.
If we simply go by the anatomy of the word "Aionios" means "of or relating to aion" because the anatomy of the word is "aion" and "ios." The suffix "ios" means "of or relating to" as well.
Anyhow, a word can mean anything, which is why words can change over time. What's important to me is what the Bible authors MEANT by using the word. The New Testament is not strictly a Greek language writing. It's a Greek translation of Hebrew concepts. The Jewish writers (Paul, James, John, Peter), therefore, needed to choose a word closest to their own "Olam."
This is why it doesn't matter what Greek scholars think about "aionios" and it doesn't even matter what Greek people think about it. What matters is what the Holy Scripture says about it, from Genesis to Revelation.
I am curious is their any words studies on the suffix 'ios' that can put my mind at ease.
You might fare better if you do an in depth study of the word in Hebrew -"olam".... from which aion is translated(Hebrew to Greek). Jesus and the apostles spoke from the Hebrew mindset, not the Greek.
However, word studies can only take you so far. The context of the word is the most important factor, else, how could anyone not a language student receive the truth? God did not make it so complex as that. I became convinced from the context of the word, I believed, then I did the word studies for confirmation and so I could teach. but truly, this god of hell that you fear is not god at all. Just a construct of religious and mythilogical baloney.
www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com (http://www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com)
There may be something there that will help, check it out.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 07, 2014, 08:51:27 AM
I am curious is their any words studies on the suffix 'ios' that can put my mind at ease.
Dear friend,
While you are pursuing your word studies, may I humbly suggest you keep in heart and mind the Love of God.
While the truly unthinkable Love that God has for His creation was demonstrated so forcefully on the Cross for all to see, Jesus Christ also demonstrated such Divine Love plainly in His teachings and actions as He went about His Father's Business, which are so often sidelined.
Matt. 4
23 And Jesus led them about in the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and
heralding the evangel of the kingdom, and curing every disease and every debility among the people.
Luke 4
35 And Jesus rebukes it, saying, "Be still, and come out from him! And, pitching him into their midst, the demon came out from him, in nothing harming him."
39 And standing by over her, He rebukes the fever, and the fever leaves her. Now instantly, rising, she waited on them."
40 Now at the setting of the sun, all, whoever had those who are infirm with various diseases, led them also to Him. Now He, placing His hands on each one of them, cures them. "
43 Now He said to them that "To other cities also I must bring the evangel of the kingdom of God, for this was I commissioned."
Jesus Christ demonstrated Divine Love: He healed the sick (and downhearted), fed the hungry and transformed old ideas into much more loving teachings (no longer is it an eye for an eye...).
So, all I am suggesting is that God's Love, as demonstrated in the Divine Nature (His Face) of His Son, is always borne in heart and mind.
What comes out of a man should come up to the highest standard of Love or else the lesser mind has put it together. The spirit which is not of God can be discerned by the Spirit which is of God.
Truly, it would be a kingdom of pure evil indeed if the everlasting torture of innocent, loving, sentient beings, was based on the understanding of a highly debatable Greek word, no, a Greek suffix.
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on June 07, 2014, 08:51:27 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2014, 06:45:54 AM
It depends on the suffix you use.
The word "less" changes the word entirely because it adds a new word "less" to the word "time." However, when you use a suffix that means "of or related to" like the English suffix "-ian" than for the most part Smith is correct. Here is an example. "Italian" does not encompass "Australian," because the "-ian" relates to Italy, meaning "of or relating to Italy" not Australia. I think that is the kind of adjective Smith is talking about.
If we simply go by the anatomy of the word "Aionios" means "of or relating to aion" because the anatomy of the word is "aion" and "ios." The suffix "ios" means "of or relating to" as well.
Anyhow, a word can mean anything, which is why words can change over time. What's important to me is what the Bible authors MEANT by using the word. The New Testament is not strictly a Greek language writing. It's a Greek translation of Hebrew concepts. The Jewish writers (Paul, James, John, Peter), therefore, needed to choose a word closest to their own "Olam."
This is why it doesn't matter what Greek scholars think about "aionios" and it doesn't even matter what Greek people think about it. What matters is what the Holy Scripture says about it, from Genesis to Revelation.
I am curious is their any words studies on the suffix 'ios' that can put my mind at ease.
Yes, I believe this is what you are looking for:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
As far as the great falling away is concerned, what is written is, "bcauz iniquity abounds thr lovea of many will grow cold". This is not about the doctrine of hell. As a matter of fact, the doctrine of eternal torment is responsible for the falling away of many believers. It is u.conscionable for any reasonable, compassionate mind AND the scriptures do not support it. The Pharisees accused Jesus of teaching people to fall away. Lastly(for now:), I challenge anyone to show me one place where Jesus spoke of gehenna(hell to ETrs)to anyone but the religious leaders. Jesus did not preach eternal torment. He spke of gehenna(garbage dump outside of Jeruslem and "olam" fire and "olam" punishment. Aion is translated from olam. Olam is the word u need to understand. It occurs hundreds of times on the OT. It is tje aramic word Jesus spoke. The fear ofhell is causing many to fall away from the truth of "the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from the beginng of the world" (acts 3:19)
Ever see the movie National Treasure with Nicolas Cage. In the movie, he finds a pair of specticles (glasses) that let him see a hidden message on the back of the Declaration of Independence.
Jesus taught in parables.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
By human understanding, we cannot understand the things of God. God must reveal His truth to us, and he does this by the Holy Spirit.
Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
No matter how much one searches for understanding, it is impossible without the Holy Spirit, or the spectacles that let us see the hidden images.
DougJ7 stated; "Though it didn't happen overnight, God did eventually open my mind to understanding the scriptures"
His was the only post that mentioned this, that God opened his mind.
UniversalSceptic, I don't know if you've since started understanding God's worth by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, if not, please do seek His counsel. Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened, seek and ye shall find. Ask THE AUTHOR Himself!
In Christ :dsunny: