In the last days their will be a great falling away?

[UniversalSceptic]

Give me an example of the refutation

Sorry I didn't mean anything you have written has been directly refuted. However, you do have a link on your site to L. Ray Smith's site (may he rest in peace) and tektonics.org wrote a whole article refuting him. I go through so many websites a day that things get jumbled in my head. You might say I have an obsession with the subject because of my many short comings. Anyways L Ray smith says an adjective (aionios) can't have a greater meaning than the noun (aion). They argue that it can and use time (noun) and timeless (adjective). I assume you believe L Ray Smith had the truth since you has a link to one of his articles on your website.

[Seth]

It depends on the suffix you use.

The word "less" changes the word entirely because it adds a new word "less" to the word "time." However, when you use a suffix that means "of or related to" like the English suffix "-ian" than for the most part Smith is correct. Here is an example. "Italian" does not encompass "Australian," because the "-ian" relates to Italy, meaning "of or relating to Italy" not Australia. I think that is the kind of adjective Smith is talking about.

If we simply go by the anatomy of the word "Aionios" means "of or relating to aion" because the anatomy of the word is "aion" and "ios." The suffix "ios" means "of or relating to" as well.

Anyhow, a word can mean anything, which is why words can change over time. What's important to me is what the Bible authors MEANT by using the word. The New Testament is not strictly a Greek language writing. It's a Greek translation of Hebrew concepts. The Jewish writers (Paul, James, John, Peter), therefore, needed to choose a word closest to their own "Olam."

This is why it doesn't matter what Greek scholars think about "aionios" and it doesn't even matter what Greek people think about it. What matters is what the Holy Scripture says about it, from Genesis to Revelation.

[lastpost]

Do you see the way people honor Jesus in this thread? Satan cannot inspire good fruit. Good fruit comes from a good tree. Universal salvation is the ultimate salvation from sin for all. Such doctrine that speaks against sin cannot be inspired by the author of sin any more than devils can cast out devils.

I want to believe that, but it isn't easy. There are Greek scholars that believe in eternal torment. I looked up Early Church Fathers and found articles saying that most of them did believe in eternal torment. I have no good way of verifying the truth for myself.

Greetings US,

www.angelfire.com/empire/freespirit/Prevailing-Universalism/PrevailingUniversalism.pdf

You may have read the above fascinating document which goes into depth concerning the early Church fathers (and the prevailing thought of the times). I used it to discuss this very issue with some Roman Catholics and (conservative) Anglican priests a number of years ago, and so added navigation links to help them move around this large .pdf document (I thought that perhaps others may find this navigation helpful).

With gratitude to John .W. Hanson in service of the loving Saviour.

Also, if required, I justified and bookmarked references in the following book by the same author:

www.angelfire.com/empire/freespirit/Prevailing-Universalism/aion-aionios-rev.hanson.pdf

I hope and pray that all those who are unsure of this issue can make the knowledge and truth of the All-Loving Supreme Being their own. Certainly, the mind of man is able to invent some strange theories which become "truth" after a while. All things of God and Christ are simple.

The cause of darkness must be removed by the Light in order to permit the greater Light to enter in.

Peace, Rest, Service - they can be as one.

[marie glen]

Sure there's plenty of arguments against Universal Reconciliation and Repentance.. But there are refutations of their refutations. :laughing7:

God, surely is Perfect. To say He is less is surely an insult. How does losing 2/3's of what you have created and formed, perfection? Surely "perfect" makes no mistakes. Loses nothing.

'Hell' is a grievous blasphemy against His pure and holy nature and character, making Him out to be worse than all hitler types. "Our joy will be full" as a loved one writhes in unimaginable flesh melting agony for ever and ever?

Why is there a second resurrection. Why not just let them perish? why the need to wake them up and torture them for ever, without relief ever? "We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is" - "He is love" and are we not told to reflect His love character? In Old Testament days of cruel 'gods' of sex rites, and (resulting) babe sacrifice (live babes into fire) of course His 'wrath' (which actually is not anger according to the Hebrew, but nevertheless) was stirred! It makes me downright angry, and I didn't have to witness it all!

Besides, what did God say about that practice of living beings put into fire? "This did not come from me! It never rose up in MY heart." (what??)

For every verse which to some seems to imply 'hell' - they are so easily explained!

If Jesus, as is supposed, did during His three days in the grave, preach to those in 'hell'.. what the heck for?

Actually that verse says He preached via the Spirit while the ark was being prepared..

The angels which left their first place and are now in chains of darkness/tartarus(the Greek) awaiting judgment?
- - Once they left their state of Perfection (at one with God/Life/Perfection) they became im-perfect, the opposite of life, thus are awaiting, and are locked into judgment/results, for im-perfection cannot change its course and become perfect.

How is Lucifer's resulting place described in Isaiah 14? worms for his bed and maggots as a covering.

"Hades" is the Greek word and idea.. but the "place of the dead" is still the lower part of the earth, namely, the dust of the grave.

Gehenna of course, was Jerusalem's town dump where the bodies of criminals were thrown and the fires were never let to go out. The purveyors of 'hell' should take note of our Lord's words about not offending any little ones.. for they keep so many away from the faith by this grievous and most insulting and blasphemous error.

Rev 20:14 (Young's Literal Translation) "and death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;" - just when did death become another form of life and living?? (hades, "the place of the dead" is the grave.. which will be no more..)

"He makes aLL things new"

Colossians 1:20 "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." (NKJ) hello? how does this verse get so ignored? do we want there to be a 'hell'...??

Timothy 4:10 - "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

from Psalm 22:27-29 "All the ends of the earth
    will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
    will bow down before him,
   for dominion belongs to the Lord
     all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—"

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess "Jesus is Lord".

1 Corinthians 15:22

New King James Version (NKJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

(New International Version)
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

all these verses are but a small sample..

Jesus said "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." Italics indicate added word by the translators.. (NKJ)

Young's Literal - "and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself."

"All (will remember and) turn to the LORD"

Peace! and God bless!!  :Peace2: :smile: (I intended a very short post.. oh well.)

Fiery judgment is results and consequences which occur upon earth..

P.S - the "falling away" er, is all around us!? the result of a (STRONG) delusion that men are apes.. yet the highest power!

[sheila]

...I think the falling away can not be correctly discerned apart from the 'Word of God'  and I also

think many can not discern what it is correctly..and judge before the proper time in error.

   my people perish through a lack of knowledge[Lord,Lord did we not expel demons...?]

  in the old testament..the test of jealousy on a wife was conducted...and if found 'turning away' from

her husband,to another[adultery/imorality/idlatry]..her thigh would fall away and rot..and her belly would swell.

  it is this very thing that Jesus Christ deals with in His letter to the church in THytaria.

   He fulfills the law in the spirit and examines His flock,counsel's and judges.

   In Laodecia He spews out of His mouth[spits in the face/rejects] and they must remain out of the

camp for 7 days like Miriam.  If they heed His counsel..the very spit of His mouth will open their

eyes and be a salve unto their blindness.

[sheila]

1 Timothy 4;1-5  here are some doctrines of demons that some fall away to.  forbiding to marry

and certain foods.  Jezebel encourages the eating of food offered to these demons/idols.

  also..Jezebel..kills the rightful owner of the vineyard to seize it..and has false prophets of

Baal/Lord......Baal loved to burn the children in fire[so beware hellfire teachings.]  it never entered

  God's heart..and Jesus told the sons of thunder when they asked should they call down fire

from heaven..Jesus told them..'ye know not what spirit ye are of"

......He counsels the churches,commends those who 'tested those who claimed to be apostles

and found them false." Paul spoke of these 'superfine' false-apstle's,too.........

   Deut 13;1-5    law...Jesus fulfills it in spirit

[bushy]

I go through so many websites a day that things get jumbled in my head. You might say I have an obsession with the subject because of my many short comings.

Maybe you are trying to feel secure by being good enough, to get rid of your short comings to be sure you are accepted. I have many short comings too and don't like it a bit but have given up on making God happy with me by being good enough. It's hopeless. But be sure and know He is working on you to bring you to where He wants you. Something I heard once that stuck in my mind- "you can never do anything that will make God love you more and you can never do anything that will make God love you less." Might as well relax and enjoy His gift to you.

[dougj7]

http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/16365-is-the-great-falling-away-already-underway

It's better if you just read the whole article because I am tired and my brain's not functioning properly today, so I may not do an adequate job of getting across what this woman Jennifer LeClair is saying, but the fear of Hell has creeped back into my life.

Dear UniversalSceptic,

I can sympathize with your situation because I have been there myself. Everytime I would read an article that mentioned the word hell and how according to false teachers most of us would end up there, I would be filled with fear and doubt.

Though it didn't happen overnight, God did eventually open my mind to understanding the scriptures. I can't overstate the importance of having a good translation of the bible. I used to believe the Authorized Version (King James) bible was infallible. The KJV just reinforced the false "Hell Doctrine" that I used to believe. After much searching, God led me to the Concordant Literal Version (CLV) of the New Testament. Now whenever I study and read the scriptures I compare the CLV next to the KJV and I can clearly see how some of the mistranslations in the KJV had previously led me to the false belief of eternal torment or hell. Through much reading and studying the scriptures based on an accurate translation, my faith and understading has become so much greater, that now whenever I read an article such as the one referenced in your original post, anything unscriptural I can easily discern as being false. Yes, the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword.

Knowing and believing the scriptures builds faith and is essential for discernment:

CLV Hb 4:12 For the word of God is living and operative, and keener above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart.

May your faith grow through the word of God.

[UniversalSceptic]

It depends on the suffix you use.

The word "less" changes the word entirely because it adds a new word "less" to the word "time." However, when you use a suffix that means "of or related to" like the English suffix "-ian" than for the most part Smith is correct. Here is an example. "Italian" does not encompass "Australian," because the "-ian" relates to Italy, meaning "of or relating to Italy" not Australia. I think that is the kind of adjective Smith is talking about.

If we simply go by the anatomy of the word "Aionios" means "of or relating to aion" because the anatomy of the word is "aion" and "ios." The suffix "ios" means "of or relating to" as well.

Anyhow, a word can mean anything, which is why words can change over time. What's important to me is what the Bible authors MEANT by using the word. The New Testament is not strictly a Greek language writing. It's a Greek translation of Hebrew concepts. The Jewish writers (Paul, James, John, Peter), therefore, needed to choose a word closest to their own "Olam."

This is why it doesn't matter what Greek scholars think about "aionios" and it doesn't even matter what Greek people think about it. What matters is what the Holy Scripture says about it, from Genesis to Revelation.

I am curious is their any words studies on the suffix 'ios' that can put my mind at ease.

[eaglesway]

You might fare better if you do an in depth study of the word in  Hebrew -"olam".... from which aion is translated(Hebrew to Greek). Jesus and the apostles spoke from the Hebrew mindset, not the Greek.

However, word studies can only take you so far. The context of the word is the most important factor, else, how could anyone not a language student receive the truth? God did not make it so complex as that. I became convinced from the context of the word, I believed, then I did the word studies for confirmation and so I could teach. but truly, this god of hell that you fear is not god at all. Just a construct of religious and mythilogical baloney.

www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com

There may be something there that will help, check it out.

[lastpost]

I am curious is their any words studies on the suffix 'ios' that can put my mind at ease.

Dear friend,

While you are pursuing your word studies, may I humbly suggest you keep in heart and mind the Love of God.

While the truly unthinkable Love that God has for His creation was demonstrated so forcefully on the Cross for all to see, Jesus Christ also demonstrated such Divine Love plainly in His teachings and actions as He went about His Father's Business, which are so often sidelined.

Matt. 4
23 And Jesus led them about in the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and heralding the evangel of the kingdom, and curing every disease and every debility among the people.

Luke 4
35 And Jesus rebukes it, saying, "Be still, and come out from him! And, pitching him into their midst, the demon came out from him, in nothing harming him."

39 And standing by over her, He rebukes the fever, and the fever leaves her. Now instantly, rising, she waited on them."

40 Now at the setting of the sun, all, whoever had those who are infirm with various diseases, led them also to Him. Now He, placing His hands on each one of them, cures them. "

43 Now He said to them that "To other cities also I must bring the evangel of the kingdom of God, for this was I commissioned."

Jesus Christ demonstrated Divine Love: He healed the sick (and downhearted), fed the hungry and transformed old ideas into much more loving teachings (no longer is it an eye for an eye...).

So, all I am suggesting is that God's Love, as demonstrated in the Divine Nature (His Face) of His Son, is always borne in heart and mind.

What comes out of a man should come up to the highest standard of Love or else the lesser mind has put it together. The spirit which is not of God can be discerned by the Spirit which is of God.

Truly, it would be a kingdom of pure evil indeed if the everlasting torture of innocent, loving, sentient beings, was based on the understanding of a highly debatable Greek word, no, a Greek suffix.

[dougj7]

It depends on the suffix you use.

The word "less" changes the word entirely because it adds a new word "less" to the word "time." However, when you use a suffix that means "of or related to" like the English suffix "-ian" than for the most part Smith is correct. Here is an example. "Italian" does not encompass "Australian," because the "-ian" relates to Italy, meaning "of or relating to Italy" not Australia. I think that is the kind of adjective Smith is talking about.

If we simply go by the anatomy of the word "Aionios" means "of or relating to aion" because the anatomy of the word is "aion" and "ios." The suffix "ios" means "of or relating to" as well.

Anyhow, a word can mean anything, which is why words can change over time. What's important to me is what the Bible authors MEANT by using the word. The New Testament is not strictly a Greek language writing. It's a Greek translation of Hebrew concepts. The Jewish writers (Paul, James, John, Peter), therefore, needed to choose a word closest to their own "Olam."

This is why it doesn't matter what Greek scholars think about "aionios" and it doesn't even matter what Greek people think about it. What matters is what the Holy Scripture says about it, from Genesis to Revelation.

I am curious is their any words studies on the suffix 'ios' that can put my mind at ease.

Yes, I believe this is what you are looking for:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

[eaglesway]

As far as the great falling away is concerned, what is written is, "bcauz iniquity abounds thr lovea of many will grow cold". This is not about the doctrine of hell. As a matter of fact, the doctrine of eternal torment is responsible for the falling away of many believers. It is u.conscionable for any reasonable, compassionate mind AND the scriptures do not support it. The Pharisees accused Jesus of teaching people to fall away. Lastly(for now:), I challenge anyone to show me one place where Jesus spoke of gehenna(hell to ETrs)to anyone but the religious leaders. Jesus did not preach eternal torment. He spke of gehenna(garbage dump outside of Jeruslem and "olam" fire and "olam" punishment. Aion is translated from olam. Olam is the word u need to understand. It occurs hundreds of times on the OT. It is tje aramic word Jesus spoke. The fear ofhell is causing many to fall away from the truth of "the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from the beginng of the world" (acts 3:19)

[saintwalee]

Ever see the movie National Treasure with Nicolas Cage. In the movie, he finds a pair of specticles (glasses) that let him see a hidden message on the back of the Declaration of Independence.

Jesus taught in parables.
Mat 13:10  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

By human understanding, we cannot understand the things of God. God must reveal His truth to us, and he does this by the Holy Spirit.

Joh_16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

No matter how much one searches for understanding, it is impossible without the Holy Spirit, or the spectacles that let us see the hidden images.

DougJ7 stated; "Though it didn't happen overnight, God did eventually open my mind to understanding the scriptures"

His was the only post that mentioned this, that God opened his mind.

UniversalSceptic, I don't know if you've since started understanding God's worth by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, if not, please do seek His counsel. Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened, seek and ye shall find. Ask THE AUTHOR Himself!

In Christ :dsunny: