if everyone is going to heaven then why bother telling people that they need

[cranny]

jesus as their savior?

[Seth]

People need salvation from sin and darkness, by the Holy Spirit. Believe in Jesus Christ, be baptized in the spirit and save yourselves from this untoward generation. How can a message like that wait?

[eaglesway]

What did the evangelists tell people they needed to be saved from? Peter said, "Be saved from this untoward generation"(acts 2)

People need Jesus to escape the consequences of sin and death. Heartache, hopelessness, meaninglessness.

"I have come that they might have life, and life more abundantly"

If the only reason for embracing Christ is escaping hell, we dont have much of a gospel.

[micah7:9]

Co 1:18  For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought.
1Co 1:20  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 1:21  For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

[sheila]

Because we all need God with us now,especially..for it is now that the prince of this world

goes to and fro in the earth..it is now that great evil abounds. it is now when we are

  weak..that we need Him so. Now that we become ensnared ofthe wicked one,now

that we feel so forsaken of God in this world,now that we need comforted,now that

  men become faint with fear, now..that we need fed lest we faint on our journey home.

  it is now that men need the love and counsel of our Father and His son,now that we

need assurance of His great love for us.....it is now that we need faith the hope

and the love of God.  Comfort ye,comfort ye my people.....the saints were overcome

disheartened,cast to and fro by every wind of doctrine........it is now we need a

  saviour,comfortor and deliverance from the evil one.


   It is Now especially that we need the Good news of God's love and salvation....

   Lo! I come in the roll of the book,it is written of me...Anointed to preach the year

  of the Lord's salvation..to preach goodnews to the poor, proclaim freedom to

  the prisoners[of sin] and recovery of sight to the blind..to release the oppressed.

[FreeAtLast]

everyone will indeed at one point be with Yah---but some will have to go through the Fire before they get to him---that's why we need to repent and believe--theres  judgement coming unto all of us by our very own deeds and works---Since we have been freed from the DEATH that was passed from Adam--Grace is much more binding than the law ever was--after receiving grace and still abiding in Sin is a terrible thing and will have sore punishment(which is for correction)

You don't want to be ashamed before Yah and face that punishment--Repent ,believe on Yahshua and follow him  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Shev]

jesus as their savior?

I would use a parable here. Imagine you are the servant of a wealthy man, who is throwing a tremendous celebration, to which everyone in the region is invited. What is more, the region is starving, but this man has a limitless supply of food. He tells you to go out and say to the people of the region: "Do not starve any more. Go to my son, who is waiting at the edge of my property, and he will lead you to the celebration". He also says he will wait until every person has come, to begin the celebration.

Now, would there be no point in telling this good news, or relating the need for the people to come, just because they are ALL invited and the man is waiting for ALL to come? They are still hungry! They have still not met the son who can show them the way to the celebration. How will they know without a messenger?

[dougj7]

We are currently living in the age of grace. In the next age, God will pour out His wrath (indignation) on those not yet saved. That's what we are saved from.

CLV 1 Thes 5:9  for God did not appoint us to indignation, but to the procuring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

       1 Thes 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him.

[FreeAtLast]

We are currently living in the age of grace. In the next age, God will pour out His wrath (indignation) on those not yet saved. That's what we are saved from.

CLV 1 Thes 5:9  for God did not appoint us to indignation, but to the procuring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

       1 Thes 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him.

hello Doug

Actually depends how you look at it---
I am persuaded as a preterist(end time teaching) that the Wrath was for the unbelieving Jews at that time for there rejection of Messiah--and it was poured out on them at AD 70 just before that Age was concluded--destroying the temple and city and killing over 1 million jews.

Remember yahshua had told them when they saw the city compassed with armies(Roman armies at ad 70)that they were to flee into the mountains(a safe place was prepared for the believers)  they escaped that wrath--it wasn't for the believers but for the unbelievers  :dsunny: :dsunny:

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

I could easily ask the same thing to those who believe in the ET doctrine. Most of them believe that it is better for people not to know the Gospel in the first place than for them to know it and still sin. They also believe that it is better for Christians to have not heard the Gospel in the first place than for them to be Lukewarm (or backslide) in their faith. In their eyes Lukewarm Christians along with those who heard the Gospel but still live in sin will get a worse punishment than those who have never heard the Gospel in the first place.

[FreeAtLast]

I could easily ask the same thing to those who believe in the ET doctrine. Most of them believe that it is better for people not to know the Gospel in the first place than for them to know it and still sin. They also believe that it is better for Christians to have not heard the Gospel in the first place than for them to be Lukewarm (or backslide) in their faith. In their eyes Lukewarm Christians along with those who heard the Gospel but still live in sin will get a worse punishment than those who have never heard the Gospel in the first place.

those who have much  is required much---the servant that knew his Master's will and did it not will be beaten with many stripes

read Hebrews 10:26-31   same thing here with his people returning unto Sin willfully--sore punishment for them(for correction)

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

I could easily ask the same thing to those who believe in the ET doctrine. Most of them believe that it is better for people not to know the Gospel in the first place than for them to know it and still sin. They also believe that it is better for Christians to have not heard the Gospel in the first place than for them to be Lukewarm (or backslide) in their faith. In their eyes Lukewarm Christians along with those who heard the Gospel but still live in sin will get a worse punishment than those who have never heard the Gospel in the first place.

those who have much  is required much---the servant that knew his Master's will and did it not will be beaten with many stripes

read Hebrews 10:26-31   same thing here with his people returning unto Sin willfully--sore punishment for them(for correction)

I also believe they will go through correction rather than eternal torment.

[FreeAtLast]

I could easily ask the same thing to those who believe in the ET doctrine. Most of them believe that it is better for people not to know the Gospel in the first place than for them to know it and still sin. They also believe that it is better for Christians to have not heard the Gospel in the first place than for them to be Lukewarm (or backslide) in their faith. In their eyes Lukewarm Christians along with those who heard the Gospel but still live in sin will get a worse punishment than those who have never heard the Gospel in the first place.

those who have much  is required much---the servant that knew his Master's will and did it not will be beaten with many stripes

read Hebrews 10:26-31   same thing here with his people returning unto Sin willfully--sore punishment for them(for correction)

I also believe they will go through correction rather than eternal torment.

yes the punishment they will go through is  for the purpose of correction  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Jason76]

Being corrected wouldn't be a good experience.  We should warn others, cause, well, we don't want others to go thru it.

Jesus said the lake of fire was so bad, that the removal of an eye or limb would be better.  Isn't that right?

[eaglesway]

That's how I see it. :o) Not everyone agrees. Some believe that the lake of fire is a symbol of the consequences of sin in the now, as we reap them, which is valid in principle- but in my opinion doesnt justify with th statement of Christ that you refer to or the writing in

Romans 2 :6 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Matthew 25:31-46   .....31And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory;
32 and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats, ...........41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;.........46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;
13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the sheol did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
14 and the death and the sheol were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;
15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

2 Thessalnians 1:6since [it is] a righteous thing with God to give back to those troubling you -- trouble,
7 and to you who are troubled -- rest with us in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power,
8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
10 when He may come to be glorified in his saints, and to be wondered at in all those believing -- because our testimony was believed among you -- in that day;

The Day of the Lord is a complex subect, which in my opinion has "in the present"implications and "in the next world"(aionian/olam) implications, so let me just say, Jason, this is my two cents worth. Peace.

[Seth]

That's how I see it. :o) Not everyone agrees. Some believe that the lake of fire is a symbol of the consequences of sin in the now, as we reap them, which is valid in principle- but in my opinion doesnt justify with th statement of Christ that you refer to or the writing in

Romans 2 :6 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I'm one of those guys that believes that the Lake of Fire is a symbol of not just the consequences of sin, but the workings of sin leading to those consequences, both in this life and in the Day of the Lord. I see Isaiah 9 as as a signifier of that among other OT scriptures referenced by Revelation.

I think you are right that the day of the Lord is a complex subject, and I believe so because there are multiple ways for God to bring judgment.

1) By turning man over to his own sin, then
2) Convicting their conscious through the word by the Spirit and the Bride

I see both judgements spoken in Revelation 20 and 21, where (second) death leads to repentance and seeking after the water of life. Not to say that I disagree with your viewpoint about how God will judge people, but that I see multiple forms of judgment working together in the day of the Lord.

[eaglesway]

I'm one of those guys that believes that the Lake of Fire is a symbol of not just the consequences of sin, but the workings of sin leading to those consequences, both in this life and in the Day of the Lord. I see Isaiah 9 as as a signifier of that among other OT scriptures referenced by Revelation.

I think you are right that the day of the Lord is a complex subject, and I believe so because there are multiple ways for God to bring judgment.

1) By turning man over to his own sin, then
2) Convicting their conscious through the word by the Spirit and the Bride

I see both judgements spoken in Revelation 20 and 21, where (second) death leads to repentance and seeking after the water of life. Not to say that I disagree with your viewpoint about how God will judge people, but that I see multiple forms of judgment working together in the day of the Lord.

I agree with all of that in principle. :o)

My only specific disagreement is that I see the "lake of fire" as a specific manifestation of being tried/tested/purged in the presence/fire of God reserved only for the wicked; unbelievers who do not repent when they see His face, and perhaps apostates. But as I hav said before, there only a few verses concerning the lake of fire. We are not given many details or a comprehensive view of it. It is seen thru a glass darkly imo.

[Seth]

First of all, you are right. There is not a lot of detail, and certainly not a DIRECT explanation of the symbol. My thoughts are also that I agree that the LOF is a trial/testing period as well, and I see the Prodigal Son's experience as a trial/testing period which resulted in the purging of his pride. I don't see the LOF as a specific time of God himself wholloping on man and yelling at him (not to say you do). I see the peaceful father of the Prodigal Son, who has made peace with the sinner, simply waiting for the sinner to come around, through the dissolution of pride.

My basic understanding, and this is just me, is this:

In Revelation 20-21, I see the Spirit and Bride preaching LIFE to those who are in DEATH. All this is by definition. The bride is preaching about the "water of life" to those who are outside the gates in what is called the "second death."

So, by the information provided in Revelation, the Bride is preaching life to those who are in death. To me, that sounds exactly like what Peter was doing in the Book of Acts.

[eaglesway]

Yes, I agree that the principle involved in judgment and correwction in general is the same regardless of how we see the specific application. I have always thought the Prodigal is a good example of the lake of fire with the exception that he was "in the Father's house", and left.

When I look at Jude 6 I see that a group of angels are bound over in outer darkness for judgment(fire) and I see this principle also as "in this life" and "in the world/age"(olam) to come. Sometimes believers who leave "their proper abode"- which means to me arrogance and selfish ambition(as per Ro 12:1-3 & James 3:13-17 & Eph 4:1-4) find themselves bound in chains of darkness awaiting fire also. This is also a form of correction and the principles are the same- God has ways of getting our attention so that we cannot revel in evil without limit:o)

We can escape those chains when we wake up and repent. A good example of this is the son of Hezekiah, who was exceedingly wicked, paganistic, as a king and was taken in chains into captivity. He truly repented while in chains, and was restored entirely to the throne, the nation restored and blessed by the Lord. :o)

[rosered]

People need salvation from sin and darkness, by the Holy Spirit. Believe in Jesus Christ, be baptized in the spirit and save yourselves from this untoward generation. How can a message like that wait?

   :thumbsup:       Hebrews  3 :15   

As it is said: Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.

AND THAT, KNOWING THE TIME, THAT NOW IT IS HIGH TIME TO AWAKE OUT OF SLEEP: FOR NOW IS OUR SALVATION NEARER THAN WHEN WE BELIEVED.


THE NIGHT IS FAR SPENT, THE DAY IS AT HAND: LET US THEREFORE CAST OFF THE WORKS OF DARKNESS, AND LET US PUT ON THE ARMOUR OF LIGHT. LET US WALK HONESTLY, AS IN THE DAY;


NOT IN RIOTING AND DRUNKENNESS, NOT IN CHAMBERING AND WANTONNESS, NOT IN STRIFE AND ENVYING.

BUT PUT YE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND MAKE NOT PROVISION FOR THE FLESH, TO FULFIL THE LUSTS THEREOF

[Seth]

 :dsunny: