Guilt. It's a funny thing, how long do we have to endure it before it becomes a bad thing?
Is it something that we can free ourselves from completely because of the cross? Or is guilt shaping and reforming us?
How does one let go of guilt if it manifests into something that draws you away from God?
Maybe it's not guilt I feel, but doubt. I doubt myself. The more I realize how great God is, the more I can see how wicked I am, to the point where I feel like I do not deserve him.
But alas! He died for me! Which makes me feel even more wicked for still feeling guilty even though his blood washes me clean.
How long God do we have to wait until we are freed from our sin? Oh how I look forward to burying my guilt and sinful ways in the dust.
Guilt is so hard, even with UR. I couldn't even imagine enduring it with the thought I might be eternally punished as well.
For those of us who draw near to God, and as the time for the ending of this age approaches, the saints see their guilt and sin ever more clearly. Doubt is a problem for them, and the apprehension of loss of salvation, as they perceive the gulf between them and God. The only answer is to keep your eyes on Jesus.
On the other hand, the wicked move away from God, and lose sight of that great gulf. They forget what sin is, and their guilt lessens. They take a "I'm OK, you're OK" stance in life, and do as they please, not seeing the Judgment to come. The only answer is for the saints to pray for them to be dragged before the throne of God.
Thank you Laz,
Sometimes I forget that God calls us to endure till the end, praise God for Jesus!
I thought perhaps I shouldn't write this. Then I came to the conclusion that holding something back which might be relevant isn't honest either. So, here is what I have found to be valid in my life. It is not intended to be anymore than simply saying something about me, it is not a general observation on anything, or anyone else.
I have found over the years that my guilt is associated with me ego. For decades when I did something which I thought was bad, or unrighteous, or selfish, etc., I felt guilt. It wasn't because somehow I had done a wrong thing. It was because I thought I was better than doing wrong things. The more I went through life, the more I assumed I was above certain things. A notion of being a little above the grade took hold.
When I was a "Jesus Freak", most of us were there for the love, but most of us also had a notion that the established churches just didn't understand God's message. We did, because we were young, and we read, and the Spirit was poured out on us. Traditional churches didn't understand, and we looked down on them for being simply an expression of the dominant culture: not really the conduit for the message.
Every time I came up short, I felt guilt. It wasn't because I 'missed the mark', it was because of the realization, that I (who was beyond missing the mark) had done it, and somehow I was just plain better than these rookie mistake made me out to be. The problem was, I didn't turn to God and honestly and genuinely accept his forgiveness. My ego stood in the way of his forgiveness. My ego told me these mistakes were aberrations, they weren't really me.
Now, after years of having messed up, I have enough evidence at my disposal to know, I am capable of getting it wrong: anywhere, anytime, anyway. The more I put my life in God's hands, the more I don't berate myself for not being perfect ... the less I feel guilty. There are times now when I laugh at what I did, and remember, these were exactly the kinds of things which cause me to feel guilty before. What I've learned it that my guilt was associated with the ego which assumed I had it right, and thus needed to always be right. The less my ego, the less my guilt. That's literally my :2c: worth.
Thank you VB,
I certainly felt a "click" :declare: moment when I read your post. My ego stands in the way too, the fear of being wrong, sinful and unworthy when in fact I am justified by Christ. I was born this way, and God knows it. I was born to make mistakes, to have a heart that is selfish, I need to remember I was not born perfect but in the process of being made perfect.
One thing I know that helps with my ego is offering whatever I do "right" to God, thanking him and acknowledging that it was him that worked through me, not just myself. We need to offer up the good and the bad.
I'm not criticizing or attacking VB, but I heard a "cutesy" phrase today which might be relevant: " a Scorched Id Policy." Or, it could be a Scorched Ego Policy - our Egos may be among the strongholds the Bible speaks of, and which need pulling down, maybe even burning down. Yes, VB, I used to be a Jesus Freak too, and felt the same as you.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 19, 2013, 01:08:16 AM
For those of us who draw near to God, and as the time for the ending of this age approaches, the saints see their guilt and sin ever more clearly. Doubt is a problem for them, and the apprehension of loss of salvation, as they perceive the gulf between them and God. The only answer is to keep your eyes on Jesus.
On the other hand, the wicked move away from God, and lose sight of that great gulf. They forget what sin is, and their guilt lessens. They take a "I'm OK, you're OK" stance in life, and do as they please, not seeing the Judgment to come. The only answer is for the saints to pray for them to be dragged before the throne of God.
Beautiful, True, Hopeful and Greatly Encouraging :o)
IMO, guilt is the person not forgiving themselves even though God has. :Peace2:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1Jn 1:7-10)
it is a sin to say we have no sin. But we have a propitiation(a rectifying sacrifice) for our sins- indeed even for the whole worlds sins- Jesus, the Lamb.
If we bring our sin up into the light- we offer it to Him, in honesty and hope and trust, and He takes it from us, and faithfully forgives us AND CLEANSES US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Wonderful.
I used to beat myself up over my short comings--thinking self abuse would reform my behavior. All it did was made me wish for death. Since discovering UR that has changed. For me, feelings of guilt and condemnation for doing something wrong (sin), plainly reveals whom I have been trusting in for righteousness--myself. Falling on my face reminds me that the flesh profits nothing, and God alone is good, not me. In God alone I have righteous and strength. I trust that in all of it God is working a greater weight of glory that I do not see yet. Somehow He is working it all (even my sin) for His glory.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 19, 2013, 05:56:23 AM
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1Jn 1:7-10)
it is a sin to say we have no sin. But we have a propitiation(a rectifying sacrifice) for our sins- indeed even for the whole worlds sins- Jesus, the Lamb.
If we bring our sin up into the light- we offer it to Him, in honesty and hope and trust, and He takes it from us, and faithfully forgives us AND CLEANSES US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Wonderful.
How often do you do the above?
Quote from: ded2daworld on February 19, 2013, 03:32:59 AM
IMO, guilt is the person not forgiving themselves even though God has. :Peace2:
Terrific response.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 19, 2013, 02:04:56 AM
I thought perhaps I shouldn't write this. Then I came to the conclusion that holding something back which might be relevant isn't honest either. So, here is what I have found to be valid in my life. It is not intended to be anymore than simply saying something about me, it is not a general observation on anything, or anyone else.
I have found over the years that my guilt is associated with me ego. For decades when I did something which I thought was bad, or unrighteous, or selfish, etc., I felt guilt. It wasn't because somehow I had done a wrong thing. It was because I thought I was better than doing wrong things. The more I went through life, the more I assumed I was above certain things. A notion of being a little above the grade took hold.
When I was a "Jesus Freak", most of us were there for the love, but most of us also had a notion that the established churches just didn't understand God's message. We did, because we were young, and we read, and the Spirit was poured out on us. Traditional churches didn't understand, and we looked down on them for being simply an expression of the dominant culture: not really the conduit for the message.
Every time I came up short, I felt guilt. It wasn't because I 'missed the mark', it was because of the realization, that I (who was beyond missing the mark) had done it, and somehow I was just plain better than these rookie mistake made me out to be. The problem was, I didn't turn to God and honestly and genuinely accept his forgiveness. My ego stood in the way of his forgiveness. My ego told me these mistakes were aberrations, they weren't really me.
Now, after years of having messed up, I have enough evidence at my disposal to know, I am capable of getting it wrong: anywhere, anytime, anyway. The more I put my life in God's hands, the more I don't berate myself for not being perfect ... the less I feel guilty. There are times now when I laugh at what I did, and remember, these were exactly the kinds of things which cause me to feel guilty before. What I've learned it that my guilt was associated with the ego which assumed I had it right, and thus needed to always be right. The less my ego, the less my guilt. That's literally my :2c: worth.
:bigGrin:
Quote from: dajomaco on February 22, 2013, 07:16:23 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 19, 2013, 05:56:23 AM
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1Jn 1:7-10)
it is a sin to say we have no sin. But we have a propitiation(a rectifying sacrifice) for our sins- indeed even for the whole worlds sins- Jesus, the Lamb.
If we bring our sin up into the light- we offer it to Him, in honesty and hope and trust, and He takes it from us, and faithfully forgives us AND CLEANSES US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Wonderful.
How often do you do the above?
What I meant by my question, is doing the above a one shot deal.
If you do the above more than once is it an on going thing.
Do you do it foramally or informally.
As needed. A way of life.
Lots of good thoughts on guilt in this thread. What I know is guilt very rarely brings anything positive into my life. If the guilt causes me to make a quick amend to my brother, then it's fruitful. But, more times than not it causes me to put up a wall between myself and God. I cant engage guilt today. it is harmful to my spirit. I can't play with it. I have proven over and over again that I can't get this right. When I try to walk in righteousness, I do what I do not want to do. I fall flat on my face. I think I would have grown despondent years ago, except I have seen The Lord slowly (or in my mind its slowly) cut out pieces that do not look like Him. While I still struggle, the flesh doesn't have the foothold it once did. So, today I have faith that God will remove it all in His time. My only job is to love Him and my neighbor, while I earnest wait for his Holiness to complete its work in me as it has already been completed. Guilt is spiritual abuse of self.
Because we all stumble in many ways.
Quote from: shawn on February 24, 2013, 11:03:05 AM
Lots of good thoughts on guilt in this thread. What I know is guilt very rarely brings anything positive into my life. If the guilt causes me to make a quick amend to my brother, then it's fruitful. But, more times than not it causes me to put up a wall between myself and God. I cant engage guilt today. it is harmful to my spirit. I can't play with it. I have proven over and over again that I can't get this right. When I try to walk in righteousness, I do what I do not want to do. I fall flat on my face. I think I would have grown despondent years ago, except I have seen The Lord slowly (or in my mind its slowly) cut out pieces that do not look like Him. While I still struggle, the flesh doesn't have the foothold it once did. So, today I have faith that God will remove it all in His time. My only job is to love Him and my neighbor, while I earnest wait for his Holiness to complete its work in me as it has already been completed. Guilt is spiritual abuse of self.
Well said! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: "When I try to walk in righteousness, I do what I do not want to do. I fall flat on my face." Wonderful! Love to you my friend.
IMO when we are conscience of our sin,
we cannot be conscience of the finished work of the cross.
Our sin is engaged to our ego.
That engagement was broken we are no longer obligated to our sin.
We can keep talking about our Ex's and how terrible they are.
We can also ignore them.
Sin is often engaged to the ego, sometimes to the body, even at times to the spirit(a haughty spirit goes before a fall). The heart is the gatekeeper. As our faithful and loving Father sends trail and tribulation to disengage us, by causing us to return to our first love (love the Lord your God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself)- that unabashed, unashamed first love of grace received and rejoiced in- we are carried from grace to grace into the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.
Once I was a raven,
Scavenging for food,
But I never gave birth to a vultures brood
For I turned into a sparrow
When I learned to trust in God
And as my heart filled up with love
I changed into a dove
The an eagle I became
The heavenly realms were my domain
Now, all of these three am I
The sparrow, the dove and the eagle fly
Through the open window of my heart-
A single eye.
Psalm 102 Has such hauntingly beautiful imagery in it. God is certainly a poet. :o)