How did Saul die?

[eaglesway]

Some other conflicting stories:

Acts 9:7  The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one.

Acts 22:9  Now those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me.
----------------------------------------------
Exo 6:3  I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name 'The LORD' I did not make myself known to them.

Exous 6:3 is a translation issue. The name in Exodus 6:3 is "sadday bael" as opposed to Yahweh. In this instance I believ God is speaking of revealing a certain aspect of His divine nature and eternal power that He had not previously revealed.



Gen 24:12  And he said, "O LORD, God of my master Abraham, please grant me success today and show steadfast love to my
master Abraham.

Now there may be explanations for these seeming contradictions (or they are just paradox).  But from the text itself there is none.  We can make inferences, like Moses or
Ezra went back and inserted YHWH into time of Abraham, or Exo 6:3 means something besides they didn't actually know that name at all.  I don't know.  But what I see is that the bible is not a book written from a modern scientific/historic perspective.  They had different ideas of recording truth, and documentation than we do now, and to impose our 20th century scientific mind on a culture that we know so very little about (if you look, we really don't know what a vast majority of the Hebrew words mean, we have educated guesses) is going to lead to a dead end.

When Paul wrote, "the letter kills but the spirit gives life" I believe it was given especially for us in this day and age, who are 3500 years removed from an all but completely lost culture.  We want this systematic neat and clean Bible, but I don't think thats the case.  And I think thats by Gods design. 

All scripture is God breathed.  Is it perfect??

Lets look at another example of God breathed.

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being.

Was Adam perfect??  Some say yes.  But if that was the case then he wouldn't have sinned. 

If God can work through an imperfect, God breathed creature, down through the centuries, then He can work through an imperfect but nonetheless inspired collection of books. 

Its Gods MO to work through the messy.  Does this demean the scriptures?  I'm sure it does to some.  I can just feel the heat of torches and hear the clang of pitchforks.  But IMO, this lifts up the scripture into reality, and we don't have to idolize it, but see that it is given to show the way to Jesus Christ, but is not Him. 

:2c: :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

All I'm saying is the amalekite testimony was Totally different than previously stated. The armor bearer saw Saul die by throwing himself on his sword. Saul had the crown and jewels when he died - the amalekite HAD to have taken the crown and jewels after Saul had died. ...AND after the armor bearer had died. The amalekite only knew that Saul had died with his crown intact. Even in the margins(not part of the word of God) it says "Saul kills himself"
Bible interpretation also has a rule that what comes first takes precedence over what follows if there is a conflict.
One of the members said there was no eyewitness in Sam 31 but God inspires the scripture and he certainly knows what happened. It makes me wonder how someone can give such weight to a persons words over what God said. "Then Saul fell on his sword" When the armorbearer saw that Saul was dead HE TOO(also) fell on his own sword (inlike manner to Saul)

I just found this as I was reading, 2Sa 21:12  And David went and took the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from the men of Jabeshgilead, which had stolen them from the street of Bethshan, where the Philistines had hanged them, when the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa:
Just mentioning it cause I just read it.

[eaglesway]

I know of no such law of Biblical interpretation.

The only law I know is that the spirit gives life, the letter kills.

Miniscule differences in narratives reflect the perspectives of the various narrators. Saul was slain by the Philistines. He killed himself because he was mortally wounded and in incredible pain from the wound, but the mortal wound was received from the Philistines. The rest is narrative perspective, jots and tittles.Large events recounted in few words leave much to interpret- and know possibility for absolute resolution- and I like it that way. i think God leaves the specks for people with logs in their eyes to stumble over.  IMO, the perfection of the scriptures is by the Spirit- not by the letter.

[micah7:9]

Sounds reasonable, I just thought that when I opened the post there were two stories of Saul's death and I went on through the book(as one does) and found the Philistines doing the job.
And I am only throwing this in because it just comes out to 3 different explanations. And the number 3 we are told, is always a significant number. I am not trying to say nothing of it, it just fell in there. :dsunny:

[JulieTang84]

eaglesway wrote:  "IMO, the perfection of the scriptures is by the Spirit- not by the letter."


Which would include IMO any hope of trying to determine the true message through the words conveyed.


I state this both humbly and forthright. For the Spirit clears a path of understanding that is not intellectual; it is more than an understanding and much more than a feeling. Rather, it is more like a profound peace devoid of anything but love. A state of being.  :HeartThrob:


Love Julie

[micah7:9]

I know of no such law of Biblical interpretation.

The only law I know is that the spirit gives life, the letter kills.

Miniscule differences in narratives reflect the perspectives of the various narrators. Saul was slain by the Philistines. He killed himself because he was mortally wounded and in incredible pain from the wound, but the mortal wound was received from the Philistines. The rest is narrative perspective, jots and tittles.Large events recounted in few words leave much to interpret- and know possibility for absolute resolution- and I like it that way. i think God leaves the specks for people with logs in their eyes to stumble over.  IMO, the perfection of the scriptures is by the Spirit- not by the letter.

"Miniscule differences in narratives  reflect the perspectives of the various narrators."
So then.....2 Tim. 3:16 does not mean what it says? I'm just thinking here, that's all.
And narratives just reflect perspectives?
And the miniscule things are not to be considered as important?

2Ti 3:16  every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,(YLT)
2Ti 3:16  Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.(KJV)

[JulieTang84]

"Miniscule differences in narratives  reflect the perspectives of the various narrators."
So then.....2 Tim. 3:16 does not mean what it says? I'm just thinking here, that's all.
And narratives just reflect perspectives?
And the miniscule things are not to be considered as important?

2Ti 3:16  every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,(YLT)
2Ti 3:16  Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.(KJV)

This is  wonderful Spirit led discussion, so for want of comparing words to words and not losing the love of the Spirit, let's just consider how the word "HELL" has totally changed meaning. In fact it has made a complete abomination of Fathers Holy Word. Jesus said he would gather all to him. Paul said that Jesus would save ALL especially those that believed.

We are here, a scant few lead by the Spirit of Love knowing that what is taught in 1000's if not millions of churches every week is incomprehensible in the presense of even human love, let alone PERFECT LOVE.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

So to your point, I would argue that Scriptures have been used greatly to DISPROVE the LOVE of Father. In fact by the will of Father himself, two people can read the same Scripture and come to polar opposite conclusions.  :dontknow:

But we need not be suprised as Paul knew this time would come and it likely started while he was still alive or soon after.

2Ti 4:3       For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4       And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


:HeartThrob: We just cannot know what the true meaning of words of that long ago. The word "gay" comes to mind. Now how did that happen in such a short time???  :sigh:

Pro 3:5 Trust in The Lord your God with all your heart and lean not on "our" understanding.  :HeartThrob:

Gosh, I hope this does not come off harsh.  :friendstu: Please forgive me if so.  :HeartThrob:

It is not my intention to degrade the Scriptures, but rather give credence to the Spirit of discernment and all truth, for without it. Look what happened.

Love Julie  :girlheart:

[micah7:9]

I'm sorry I missed something.  :dontknow: I do that sometimes :(

[JulieTang84]

I'm sorry I missed something.  :dontknow: I do that sometimes :(

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :friendstu: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:   Julie with :footmouth:  I'm so sorry :crywipe:

[Lazarus Short]

How Laz sees it:

We've done three pages, and found three versions of events.

1.  Saul was killed by the Philistines.  That only means that he was killed/died in action against the Philistines.  This version contains no details to give it credence.  The Philistines simply recovered his already-dead body.

2.  Saul was killed by an Amalekite, who just happened to wander by.  Looks to me like this man was a liar trying to curry favor with David, not knowing that David reverenced Saul.

3.  Saul fell on his sword.  This version comes first, the details jibe, and since no witnesses survived to tell the tale, it must have been inspired by God, not related by a liar, or summed up by a vague, generalized phrase.

[Tom H]

Micah, I think scripture is true even if we sometimes aren't told the whole story or get what seems to be conflicting accounts. I can see how the first account of Saul's death seems to conflict with the second only if we assume that the Amalekite was telling the truth. So I'm inclined to agree with Ded, but I understand what Lastpost is saying.

Likewise, Rosered, the stories of the death of Judas can seem to be conflicting just because we're not told the whole story. I've thought about that, and I think just because "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out," that doesn't necessarily mean that's how he died. He could have hanged himself from a high tree maybe even on the edge of a cliff and died, but then the branch snapped or the rope broke and his body dropped to the ground. Just because we're not told the whole story doesn't mean the rest of it is false. It's a mystery. I think comparing translations can shine some light on the stories about the "adversary" and David. The word "adversary" does not necessarily always apply to Satan even though Satan means "Adversary." I attached a couple of screenshots for you Micah regarding 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1.

Amen to Sheila. We're all sinners. Judas may not be saved for eonian life, but Christ reconciles all those on the earth and those in the heavens. Judas will be saved from death as will all because scripture says all will be vivified, and God will be all in all.

Where's Columbo or Sherlock Holmes when we need them? There are mysteries in scripture that hopefully someday we'll understand. We're all just speculating on what is not written. Witness accounts are always according to the perspective of the witness, and even eyewitness accounts can differ. I understand the attempt to try to solve the mysteries, but I think we need to make sure we don't start to doubt the word of God in the process. I think Satan is rolling on the floor laughing out loud about all this. Personally I'm not going to waste what brain power I have left trying to come up with answers based on speculation that can't be verified. It's a mystery for a reason even if I don't understand what that reason is. I can live with that, and let it go to meditate on other things that are clear and edifying. That's just my opinion folks, but let me know if you find the answer somewhere else in scripture. I don't how you'd be convinced it was the answer though. It would just be another version of events in the mystery, right?

"For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face" (1 Corinthians 13:12).



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[micah7:9]

To be clear, my questioned post was nothing more than a query into how did Saul die. I find and accept what Laz has but forth, that seems to be all we know. Whether there is a "liar" involved, again we don't know and unless the Lord reveals what and how it happened the answer is up for grabs. But accusing the Amalekite to be a liar is only an assumption. There maybe something there and there be nothing at all, the author's of both Samuel and Kings, from what I gather are both unknown, so there is no one to consider as to how Saul died. All we know is that Saul died.  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[sheila]

well...when Eve hd heard twoo different presentations of what the 'word of God" was to her..she had to make a

choice of who to beleive.  And the same occurred with Jesus in the temptations in the wilderness...when

  satan come 'quoting' the word of God.

   just sayin....something for us all to consider...... :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

When did this happen? "....well...when Eve hd heard twoo different presentations ..."

Now that would be a pretty good discussion, Gen 2:16  And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man...
Gen 2:16  And the LORD God commanded the man....

Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Just sayin..... :HeartThrob:

[Tom H]

well...when Eve hd heard twoo different presentations of what the 'word of God" was to her..she had to make a

choice of who to beleive.  And the same occurred with Jesus in the temptations in the wilderness...when

  satan come 'quoting' the word of God.

   just sayin....something for us all to consider...... :HeartThrob:

The serpent lied to Eve, and poor Eve fell for it. That lie was the beginning of the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul that became Plato's philosophy that was adopted by the church. That's how the church cons folks into thinking they'll be tortured alive forever in fire.

"But the serpent said to the woman: Not to die shall you be dying" (Genesis 3:4).

Satan misused scripture to try to con Christ, but he didn't fall for it. He just kept coming back with the sword of the spirit, the word of God, until Satan gave up and left him alone (Matthew 4:1-11).

[micah7:9]

The woman "fell" for it? The woman was made spiritually weak, just as Adam was. And the Lord God made them that way. The woman SAW Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, ... Yes, part of The Plan.
What the woman saw, made her eat, "..the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise(H7919  to be (causeatively make or act) circumspect and hence intelligent:),...." and becoming just like everyone of us until we are found. Yes, this is just my opinion.******and this has to do with Saul?

[Tom H]

The woman "fell" for it? The woman was made spiritually weak, just as Adam was. And the Lord God made them that way. The woman SAW Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, ... Yes, part of The Plan.
What the woman saw, made her eat, "..the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise(H7919  to be (causeatively make or act) circumspect and hence intelligent:),...." and becoming just like everyone of us until we are found. Yes, this is just my opinion.******and this has to do with Saul?

I was simply replying to a posted comparison account in scripture. Eve believed Satan's lie that she wouldn't die even though the Lord said she would. I believe "out of Him and through Him and for Him is all" (Romans 11:36). So I don't believe in free will. Regarding: "and this has to do with Saul?" I didn't intend to hijack your thread when I replied to Sheila or Anna. I apologize for the distraction. I'd forgotten about the story of Saul's death, but I remembered the different accounts of Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus and the death of Judas. I think all scripture is subject to interpretation because it comes through imperfect human vessels, and everybody has a different perspective. I think it is simply a matter of faith to believe scripture at all. Atheists think it is just a myth like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I think that's because they haven't been given faith. I know some folks say scripture text is without error, but then there are these stories that don't seem to harmonize. And that's not even taking into account the matter of incorrect translation let alone mistakes in copying the manuscripts due to human error or intentional changes due to intimidation by the church to conform to church doctrine. I think it's like anything where there are different accounts that don't exactly match each other. Somewhere in all those accounts there is a true story about what really happened, but we may not know what that is. I don't know how Saul died. I only think Saul lived and died because I believe scripture even though there are parts of it that are a mystery. How do you think Saul died after all this discussion? 

[micah7:9]

Gotcha! Very good words, and posts get hijacked in the blink of an eye :)
But I must make note, you stated, "....just a myth like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny."
It that true about santa clause and the easter bunny just being a myth? :umnick: :btantrum: :laugh:

[Tom H]

Gotcha! Very good words, and posts get hijacked in the blink of an eye :)
But I must make note, you stated, "....just a myth like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny."
It that true about santa clause and the easter bunny just being a myth? :umnick: :btantrum: :laugh:

I'm sorry if I was the one to break it to you, but the sad truth is yes.

[micah7:9]

 :doh:

[WhiteWings]

This objection neglects the nature of the word used for "slain". It is nakah, an all-purpose word that can mean to strike, beat, wound, kill, and so on. It's obviously being used here is a primarily figurative sense of "defeat" in battle (as in, one football team "beat" the other one)

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/sauldead.html

[WhiteWings]

About Judas: "This man" isn't Judas but the person who bought the field. (gutting was done to traitors)

[eaglesway]

This objection neglects the nature of the word used for "slain". It is nakah, an all-purpose word that can mean to strike, beat, wound, kill, and so on. It's obviously being used here is a primarily figurative sense of "defeat" in battle (as in, one football team "beat" the other one)

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/sauldead.html

Awesome.

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup: