How did Saul die?

[micah7:9]

I am at present reading 1st(finished) and 2 Samuel(started) and maybe I am miss reading or I do not understand what I am reading, so hopefully I will be enlightened by others. I have read this many times and years ago I had wondered, so I am bringing it up before you my friends in Christ.

I read in 1st Samuel,  "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
  And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.
So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together."
And then I read in 2nd Samuel, "And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped. "
"And David said unto the young man that told him, How knowest thou that Saul and Jonathan his son be dead? "
"Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him.
  And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I.
  And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite.
He said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me.
  So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord."
"And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite.
  And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD'S anointed?
  And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.
And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD'S anointed. "

If chapter one " "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it." "And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him."
"So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together."

Then in chapter 2,  "And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped."
" How knowest thou that Saul and Jonathan his son be dead? " " So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord."
"And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.
  And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD'S anointed. "

So, chapter one seems to say that Saul killed himself and in Chapter two it was an Amalekite, who had escaped that killed Saul. What am I understanding wrong? Or what am I reading wrong?

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

Upon reading these accounts, I don't believe they are necessarily in conflict.  The first account is rather vague in comparison to the second account.  I the first account, it simply says that Saul fell upon his sword.  In the second account it says he did the same with a little help from the Amalekite.  It seems to me that the first account simply did not include that detail.  Then after that the others found him dead and killed themselves also.  Saul's death was by assisted suicide. :2c:

[ded2daworld]

When the bible states how things happened - it's the truth. When the bible states what someone has said - that is also the truth. However, when the bible quotes a man accurately, it doesn't mean the person was telling the truth. The amelikite was lying. He thought that because David was against Saul that he would get a reward for bringing the stuff back AND for killing Saul. David didn't know the man was lying. If the man had told the truth he would have indeed been rewarded for returning the items. As it was, the man basically confessed to murder since it was not up to him to decide whether to kill Saul even if Saul would die anyway. The amalekite assumed David would have wanted helpless Saul to be slaughtered. He didn't know that David had Saul helpless in the cave when Saul was relieving himself and didn't kill him then when he had the chance.

Boiled down, the Amelikite would have been rewarded if he had told the truth, he came upon the dead Saul shortly afterward.
Instead, he was punished for his lie which was basically bragging he had taken care of David's enemy for him.

[micah7:9]

Thank you Ded!!! :banana: :dsunny: I certainly believe the adage, "the forest for the trees." I know it is not a biblical adage, but when what you revealed was in plain site and I had not seen it for at least 30 years, I had a lot of forest in front of me. Praise the Lord.
Gee I hope I am not the only one who didn't see that :sigh:  :doh:

[jbertonbounds]

Upon what scriptural evidence do you say he was lying?

[micah7:9]

Upon what scriptural evidence do you say he was lying?

Thanks.....I'm back standing outside in front of a bunch of trees! :sigh: :dsunny:

[lastpost]

This has interested me too for anumber of years.

Two different and contrary versions are given of Saul's death, one in 1 Samuel 31:4-6 and another in 2 Samuel 1:8-10. The first version of Saul's death has Saul taking his own sword by himself and willingly falling on it because his armour bearer would not run him through (suicide): "Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. " (1 Samuel 31:4).

The second Biblical version has Saul run through and killed by a sword held in the hand of an Amalekite: "behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him. And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I. And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite. He said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me. So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen" (2 Samuel 1:10).

Which version is true is a matter for discussion. There is no further mention of the Amalekite's claim in the Bible, no denial of its authenticity or otherwise, and it has equal credence as that written in the first version in 1 Samuel 31:4-6.

Attempting to justify this obvious discrepancy by claiming that the Amalekite's story was made up would just be wishful thinking because there is simply no Biblical hint of this - one cannot change the truth in the Bible to suit a preferred theological opinion if one claims it is perfect truth. There is just as strong a case that the first version is incorrect - both versions are reported in similar fashion with no reference to point to which is correct or incorrect.

Furthermore, why should it be assumed that the second version of Saul's death, the Amalekite's version (2 Samuel 1:10) is the one that is erroneous? Surely the original narrator or scribe of the first version (1 Samuel 31:4) could just as easily have been inventing his version of Saul's death for his own reasons, perhaps to save the morale of the Israelite nation as a whole. However, if we are going to be even moderately honest with ourselves, we have to admit that if an Amalekite could lie, so could an Israelite!

If we are going to remain consistent in our proclamation: "If it says it in the Bible then it is true", then we cannot justifiably claim that the Amalekite was lying out of vanity or for whatever reason. If we now wish to decide that statements spoken by people in the Bible are lies - without any reference at all to the fact that they are lies - then surely every statement made by someone in the Bible must have the same criteria applied?

We cannot have it both ways: we cannot change something to suit our preferred stance, we cannot justifiably apply an unquestioning literalism to some things and then dismiss other things as error to suit, and perhaps claim it as Divinely inspired. Furthermore, this type of arbitrary "interpretation" must also be expanded to all statements in the Bible.

In this context, there are certain possibilities that could exist. Either:

A) The first version of Saul's death (1 Samuel 31:4) was true and:
(i) The Amalekite had fabricated his version of Saul's death (2 Samuel 1:10) for his own reasons;
(ii) Or the scribe who wrote about the Amalekite's version (2 Samuel 1:10) was writing about something that was invented either by himself or by his colleagues for their own reasons;
(iii) Or it was an account which had become changed from the original event through word-of-mouth corruption;

B) The first version of Saul's death (1 Samuel 31:4) was fabricated and:
(i) It was invented either by someone in the Israelite army or by the Levite priesthood because they did not like the fact that Saul was killed by an Amalekite, or it was fabricated for some other reason(s);
(ii) Or it was an account which had become changed from the original event through word-of-mouth corruption;

C) Both stories were held as fact by different factions within the Israelite nation and:
(i) There was never agreement on which version was true and so both were recorded;
(ii) One scribe did not know what the other had written;

D) Neither account was true (which we will never accept of course but it is an option)

However, among this uncertainty one thing is definitely irrefutable and rigidly incontrovertible: both accounts cannot be true because Saul of the Old Testament could only die once and by only one method!

One version must be false, or if such a different account of death is considered "not very clear" then we can also apply this method of deduction to just about any complete sentence or paragraph. Yet the Bible does not even remotely declare that either passage contains an untruth.

[rosered]

 
  This is a good question , Just like the   death of Judas   two accounts   and both different 



Act 1:18   Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.  Mat 27:5   And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.  

 
  there is another place that also baffles me , in what way its written  both say different ?

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

[micah7:9]

Thanks lastpost, you have brought forth no ease to my query? But you have offered much as to why the Lord God recorded put forth His Word.
We must remember that 1Co 14:33  For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace, as He is in all the Churches of His people. (WNT)
So as I posted this thread and gave an applaud to the response of Ded and felt a relief to my question and then jbertonbounds, threw a wrench into my wheel, and you lastpost come along and grow more trees and put your foot in a clear pond and disturbed the entire thing. God bless you friend! :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

  This is a good question , Just like the   death of Judas   two accounts   and both different   
  there is another place that also baffles me , in what way its written  both say different ?

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

I don't remember where I read something about 1 Chron.21:1 but it was something about a mistranslation of the word satan. I must now go and scramble or unscramble where I found or left it. :sigh: Thanks, and I am sincere.

[Lazarus Short]

Upon what scriptural evidence do you say he was lying?

To answer the question, he was an Amalekite - 'nuff said.  I think Ded hit the nail on the head, as I was going to take the same tack if no one else had.

[sheila]

jut saw this for the first time....Rose...re Judas......  burst asunder in the midst...reminded me of

  Jesus sying..'you don't put new wine in old wineskins lest they bursst...and also this....'Have I not chosen

  you twelve,yet one of you is a devil/liar?....thus Judas as the representative of the son of perdition.....

   represent an unregenerate...old man..not born again from above of truth...thus let God alone be found true

   all men are liars..etc.   anyone else 'see it"?

[micah7:9]

jut saw this for the first time....Rose...re Judas......  burst asunder in the midst...reminded me of

  Jesus sying..'you don't put new wine in old wineskins lest they bursst...and also this....'Have I not chosen

  you twelve,yet one of you is a devil/liar?....thus Judas as the representative of the son of perdition.....

   represent an unregenerate...old man..not born again from above of truth...thus let God alone be found true

   all men are liars..etc.   anyone else 'see it"?

What?

[rosered]

jut saw this for the first time....Rose...re Judas......  burst asunder in the midst...reminded me of

  Jesus sying..'you don't put new wine in old wineskins lest they bursst...and also this....'Have I not chosen

  you twelve,yet one of you is a devil/liar?....thus Judas as the representative of the son of perdition.....

   represent an unregenerate...old man..not born again from above of truth...thus let God alone be found true

   all men are liars..etc.   anyone else 'see it"?

I understand what you are saying  :thumbsup:   
Judas was not made a vessel   for the new wine , the Lords     work
  , he went to a  desolate place  , field of blood Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 


Act 1:17   For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 


Act 1:18   Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 


Act 1:19   And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 
Act 1:25   That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place

[rosered]

  This is a good question , Just like the   death of Judas   two accounts   and both different   
  there is another place that also baffles me , in what way its written  both say different ?

2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

I don't remember where I read something about 1 Chron.21:1 but it was something about a mistranslation of the word satan. I must now go and scramble or unscramble where I found or left it. :sigh: Thanks, and I am sincere.

Hi Micah ,
I looked in several places    and saw where the Lord  in His anger , may have allowed satan to move   David 
  just one  notion   the best of  several   others I did not bother to write here because   the others  just dont  make sense  :sigh:

[micah7:9]

jut saw this for the first time....Rose...re Judas......  burst asunder in the midst...reminded me of

  Jesus sying..'you don't put new wine in old wineskins lest they bursst...and also this....'Have I not chosen

  you twelve,yet one of you is a devil/liar?....thus Judas as the representative of the son of perdition.....

   represent an unregenerate...old man..not born again from above of truth...thus let God alone be found true

   all men are liars..etc.   anyone else 'see it"?

I find what you wrote confusing, would you explain how Judas who was chosen not a useful vessel to be used for the work of the Father"
Joh 13:16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17  If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Joh 13:18  I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Joh 13:19  Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Joh 13:20  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. [/u]
Joh 13:26  Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Joh 13:27  And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
I see no disobedience in the act of Judas.

[rosered]

 


Now Micah     I did not say he was of no use  for Gods will , I just said   that Judas would NOT be used  to   to spread the good news of the gospel  ,[ no new wine for Judas ?) and that is true , ,  you  cannot put old wine in new vessels ,  they burst

See how misunderstandings  start ?

Act 1:20   For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.  

[micah7:9]

 


Now Micah     I did not say he was of no use  for Gods will , I just said   that Judas would NOT be used  to   to spread the good news of the gospel  ,[ no new wine for Judas ?) and that is true , ,  you  cannot put old wine in new vessels ,  they burst

See how misunderstandings  start ?

Act 1:20   For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

I will say yes , but add that without Judas and his obedience, there would be no good news. Does that make Judas not a useful vessel for his use? I'm not trying to cause contention, but all things and persons are useful for His purpose and plan. Judas was very important in His plan and purpose.
Anyway, my opening post was about the dying/killing of Saul, how did it get here?

[rosered]

1SA 31:4-6 Saul killed himself by falling on his sword.
1 Samuel 31:4-6
King James Version (KJV)

4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.5 And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.

6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.


2SA 1:2-10 Saul, at his own request, was slain by an Amalekite.
2 Samuel 1:2-10
King James Version (KJV)

2 It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and so it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance.

3 And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped.

4 And David said unto him, How went the matter? I pray thee, tell me. And he answered, That the people are fled from the battle, and many of the people also are fallen and dead; and Saul and Jonathan his son are dead also.

5 And David said unto the young man that told him, How knowest thou that Saul and Jonathan his son be dead?

6 And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him.

7 And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I.

8 And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite.

9 He said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me.

10 So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord.




2SA 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines on Gilboa. 

2 Samuel 21:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 And David went and took the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from the men of Jabeshgilead, which had stolen them from the street of Bethshan, where the Philistines had hanged them, when the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa:


1CH 10:13-14 Saul was slain by God.
1 Chronicles 10:13-14
King James Version (KJV)

13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;

14 And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


Can these   verses all be   saying the same things ?

  Saul lived by the Sword and died by the Sword [Spirit and Word of God ]  ? 

  by his own hand /power of poor  choices 

and the hand / power of another  he was hurt and going to die slowly and surly   ,

but asked for help to be taken quickly

and the Lord' s  Judgment    ??

  Than could   these be saying the same  things

[rosered]

 


Now Micah     I did not say he was of no use  for Gods will , I just said   that Judas would NOT be used  to   to spread the good news of the gospel  ,[ no new wine for Judas ?) and that is true , ,  you  cannot put old wine in new vessels ,  they burst

See how misunderstandings  start ?

Act 1:20   For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

I will say yes , but add that without Judas and his obedience, there would be no good news. Does that make Judas not a useful vessel for his use? I'm not trying to cause contention, but all things and persons are useful for His purpose and plan. Judas was very important in His plan and purpose.
Anyway, my opening post was about the dying/killing of Saul, how did it get here?

  Oh  dear,,,, Micha ,   so sorry ,    Saying  it started with   more discrepancies of the Bible ?

   Yes  we see where   when satan fills the hearts or enters them ,  they all die  , Judas , Ananias, with Sapphira  only 3  prime examples of   sure death
 
Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
   

I can only share what comforts me Micah , I   only hope    anything I say would be considered   
nothing more    as we all share      the things of God

I sure dont have  any  clues to many of the mysteries of God , only  share in part  with others   in part   , God bless  :HeartThrob:

  I tried to get back on track   :dunno2:

[sheila]

.betraying Christ is right up there in serving God..as is robbing the money bags for the poor.?

    doesn't mean nothing..that GOD CAN USE EVIL FOR A GOOD PURPOSE...or make all things work to the

   good of those who love God.?

    as a man, he has bore the image of the corrupt one..as all have..and will bear the image of the incorrupt

one,also.  As a choice for a disciple...he was specifically chosen for a specific purpose in the outworkings of

God's will. I feel from the start.

   You can not serve GOD AND MAMMON..for you will hate the one and despize the other. The love of money

is the root of  all evil.   Did he love money..or did he love Christ?

    Do I think he repented and had great sorrow at the magnitude of that fall? yes.  So much sorrow and pain

that he didn't want to live anymore..that he couldn't bear it.  Do I think Grace will be show to him?

yes....I beleive he represents the corrupt image in all men...to the selling your birthright for a bowl of stew

to eating from a tree that did not belong to you...to preaching a ministry for millions on tv..and conning

people.

                                                           



           

[rosered]

 

  I agree Shelia ,
But this is the death realm    , all die in Adam .   
  none  exempt from that
   of the powers that be .

   the hands of another , self , sickness   old age.   all die
 

If we are already dead to the world , than we are already Alive to Christ 


But in Christ all shall be made alive  :girlheart:

[micah7:9]

 :Peace2:

[lastpost]

Dear Micah, your honesty [ps. and sincerity] is refreshing, thank you, may I return the joyous symbol of the smiling sun...

:dsunny:

Ephesians 4:1-16

[micah7:9]

 :HeartThrob:Thank you my friend in Christ, we are all in His Grace and His Faith :dsunny: