My main question relates to the bolded. Does anyone know if the bolded is true? Then I think, even if it is true as stated, that still doesn't take away all the witness of the scriptures, including Apostle Paul's teaching and these -
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/77_ultimate_reconciliation_and_renewal_scriptures_9438.0.html
The earliest notices now to be found of Universalism after the clays of the apostles are in the writings of some of the more prominent Gnostic sects, as the Basidians, Capocratianans, Valentinians, about A.D. 130.
Then for any history buffs out there, the rest of the article is printed below.
The ultimate purification of the race was, according to their theories, by means of the discipline of the souls of the wicked through transmigration. In the Sibylline Oracles, which appeared A.D.150, Universalism is taught as resulting from the prayers of the saints affected by the miseries of the damned. The Almighty is represented-as granting this favor to the redeemed on account of the great love which he: bears to them for their fidelity. In 195 Clemens Alexandrinus, who was president of the Catechetical School at Alexandria, advocated Universalism on the ground of the remedial character of all punishment. His pupil and successor in the school, Origen Adamantius, famous alike for his learning, piety, and zeal, taught Universalism on the ground of the ever-continuing freedom of the will, the deep mental and spiritual anguish occasioned by the light and knowledge of the truth until it leads to repentance, and then the harmony of the soul with God.
... in answering the complaint [against Origen] that he denied all future punishment they quote from his writings in contradiction thereof, not only his positive assurances of future and severe punishment, but his equally positive assertion that such correction is purifying and salutary. In A.D. 364, Titus, bishop of Bostra, wrote in advocacy of Universalism, contending that, although there are torments in the abyss of hell, they are not eternal, but that their great severity will lead the wicked to repentance and so to salvation. Gregory of Nyssa, A.D. 380, also advocated Universalism on the same grounds.
Contemporary with him was the justly celebrated defender of orthodoxy, Didymus the Blind, a successor of Origen in the school at Alexandria, and a zealous Universalist. Prominent among his scholars was Jerome, eminent alike for his abilities, his inconsistencies, and instability. Universalism as taught by Origen is clearly and ably set forth by Jerome in his commentaries on the epistles, and in his letters. John, bishop of Jerusalem at this period, was also an advocate of Universalism on Origen's theory. Another contemporary, Diodorus, a teacher of great repute in the school at Antioch, and afterwards bishop of Jerusalem, was also a Universalist, who, in opposition to the then general prevalence of allegorical interpretation, strictly adhered to the natural import of the text in his many commentaries on the Scriptures. He defended Universalism on the ground that the divine mercy far exceeds all the effects and all the deserts of sin. His pupil and successor in the school, Theodore of Mopsuestia, A.D. 420, called "the crown and climax of the school of Antioch," and by the Nestorians, whose sect he founded, "the interpreter of the Word of God," and whose writings were text-books in the schools of Eastern Syria, was a prominent and influential Universalist. His theory was that sin is an incidental part of the development and education of the human race; that, while some are more involved in it than others, God will overrule it to the final establishment of all in good. He is the reputed author of the liturgy used by the Nestorians, a Church which at one time equaled, in its membership the combined adherents of both the Greek and Latin communions, and which has had n rival in military zeal. In the addresses and prayers of this liturgy Universalism is distinctly avowed. Theodoret, A.D. 430, bishop of Cyprus in Syria, a pupil of Theodore of Mopsuestia, was also a Universalist, holding the doctrine on the theory advocated by the Antiochian school. For some time prior to this, certain opinions of Origen on pre-existence and on the salvation of the devil had been in dispute and pronounced heretical by a synod; but his doctrine of the universal salvation of the human race had not been involved in this condemnation.
At a local council called by the emperor Justinian at Constantinople, A.D. 544, Origen's doctrine of universal salvation was declared heretical. Nine years later another council was held by the same authority at the same place, when condemnation was pronounced on the Nestorians, although their belief in Universalism was not mentioned. It has been common to call this an ecumenical council, but without warrant (see the action of the Latin Church in refusing to recognize it or to send a legate to it). Doderlein, in his Institutes of Christian Theology, after quoting the decree of Justinian against Origen, says, "That was not the belief of all, and in proportion as any one was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more did he cherish and defend the hope of the termination of future "torments." Drexelius, in his defense of eternal punishment, gives this testimony, "That God should doom the apostate angels and men at the day of retribution to eternal torments seemed so hard and incredible a doctrine to some persons that even Origen himself who was mighty in the Scriptures, and no less famous for his admirable wit and excellent learning, presumed to maintain in his book of principles that both the devils and the damned, after a certain period of years, the fire having purged or cleansed them from their pollutions, should be restored to grace. Augustine and others set forth his error and condemned him for it. But, notwithstanding their condemnation, this error has found a great many in the world who have given it a kind of civil reception. The Anti heretics so called, dispersed this error throughout all Spain under various interpretations." Gieseler, the ecclesiastical historian, says, "The belief in the inalienable capacity of improvement in all rational beings and the limited duration of future punishment, was so general, even in the West, and among the opponents of Origen, that, even if it may not be said to have arisen without the influence of Origen's school, it had become entirely independent of his system." And Augustine bears this testimony: "Some - nay, very many - from human sympathy commiserate the eternal punishment of the damned and their perpetual torture without intermission, and thus do not believe in it; not, indeed, by opposing the Holy Scriptures, but by softening all the severe things according to their own feelings, and giving a milder meaning to those things which they think are said in them more terribly than truly." Universalism almost wholly disappeared during the period known as the Dark Ages, although there are occasional glimpses of it even in the mutilated records which the papal Church has permitted to descend to us. In the 7th century, Maximus, the Greek monk and confessor taught Universalism; in the 8th, Clement of Ireland was deposed from the priesthood for teaching that when Christ descended into hell he restored all the damned; while in the 9th, John Scotus Erigena, a famous philosopher who stood at the head of the learned of the court of France, was a bold defender of Universalism. In the 11th century, the Albigenses were, according to papal authorities, Universalists; in the 12th, Raynold, abbot of St. Martin's, in France, was charged before a council with holding "that all men will eventually be saved;" in the 13th, Solomon, bishop of Bassorah, discussed the question of universal salvation, answering it in the affirmative. The Lollards in the 14th century taught Universalism in Bhemia and Austria; and at the same period a council convened by Langman, archbishop of Canter bury, gave judgment against Universalism as one of the heresies then taught in that province. In the early part of the 15th century, a sect called "Men of Understanding" taught Universalism in Flanders, advocating it on the ground of the German Mystics, as did Tauler of Strasburg, and John Wessel, who, with others, have been called "the Reformers before the Reformation," whose writings Luther industriously studied and greatly admired.
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/Universalism_Cyclopedia.html
Quote from: jabcat on May 03, 2011, 02:07:15 AM
The earliest notices now to be found of Universalism after the clays of the apostles are in the writings of some of the more prominent Gnostic sects, as the Basidians, Capocratianans, Valentinians, about A.D. 130.
How should I read the word 'sect'?
As one of the many groups or a small group of heretics opposing main doctrine?
What is the proof for other doctrines at that time?
If a writing from 130 AD is found it doesn't exclude earlier writings.
Lot's of writings have been destroyed in wars. The fact Universalism was declared a heresy makes it even more suprising any UR writing survived. I think church burned all/many writings that opposed their doctrine.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html#90
According to Hanson, these 3 gnostic sects teaching UR really existed. However, he argues that whereas the orthodox believers attacked them because of their heretical views, they never reckoned their UR as a fault. UR was not obnoxious to either orthodox or heterodox in the early centuries.
If those sects and those who attact them all embraced UR then UR was the orthodox teaching.
The problem with UR is that it isn't a full blown denomination.
Catholics and Protestant both (used to) believe in ET. Does that make them the same denomination? Nope.
Gary teaches UR but never writes about what we should do/know about many things others denominations have a view on. Sunday/Saturday. Trinity. Baptism. Saints. Resurrection day. Fast. Holidays. Etc Etc
ET doniminations all share the hell concept.
UR denominations at that time all shared the 100% are saved concept.
If UR is debunked by URs attacking eachother then ET is even more debunked by all the wars between Catholics and Protestants.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 03, 2011, 02:47:56 PM
If those sects and those who attact them all embraced UR then UR was the orthodox teaching.
Indeed. If you're attacking someone for being a hairy-tick, why not charge him with ALL of his offenses while you're at it, you know?