I have been again pondering this verse and when I read "dividing asunder of soul and spirit," I understand the spirit being "breath" something I can't see, but the the verse goes on and says, "of joints and marrow"; now I can see joints a marrow.
And then the word of God, (not the twoedged sword) is a "discerner of thoughts and intents" again something I can not see.
The discussion of "soul," well we have had that one boo-koo times.
My understanding of what a soul is I receive from Gen.2:7 so when I read dividing asunder soul, I understand soul to be a living life. And in this verse soul can not be "breath" I can see a soul(breathing creature) and so the dividing asunder, a piercing even to "the joints and marrow"
I find that I understand it to be causing that soul-breathing creature in the situation of coming to a revealing of my life being divided from spirit, the life is what holds the thoughts and intents of the heart(mind).
So the word of God..quick and powerful.. is piercing and dividing my life(soul)[joints and marrow] from spirit(breath), showing me by His Spirit the thoughts and intents of my heart.
Okay does any of that make sense?
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Soul G5590 psuchē From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit
G5594 psuchō A primary verb; to breathe
Spirit G4151 pneuma From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze
G4154 pneō A primary word; to breathe hard, that is, breeze: Compare G5594
Asunder G3311 merismos From G3307; a separation or distribution: - dividing asunder, gift.
G3307 merizō to part, that is, (literally) to apportion, bestow, share, or (figuratively) to disunite, differ: - deal, be difference between, distribute, divide, give part.
The entire book of Hebrews is focused around the tabernacle/law. It is an explaining of the spiritual principles of the OT law. What is the divider? The veil. Could it be saying that the sword is cutting the division? The tearing of the veil. So that our soul and spirit join. I know you don't like the female/soul thing Micah, but Oh well :)
BTW I don't think that viewpoint requires we have a soul, but we are the soul. Thats why we are the bride, Christ the groom. We are the body, Christ the head.
The two edged sword cuts the division and the two become one.
What you wrote is plausible also.
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 10, 2013, 09:50:51 PM
The entire book of Hebrews is focused around the tabernacle/law. It is an explaining of the spiritual principles of the OT law. What is the divider? The veil. Could it be saying that the sword is cutting the division? The tearing of the veil. So that our soul and spirit join. I know you don't like the female/soul thing Micah, but Oh well :)
BTW I don't think that viewpoint requires we have a soul, but we are the soul. Thats why we are the bride, Christ the groom. We are the body, Christ the head.
The two edged sword cuts the division and the two become one.
What you wrote is plausible also.
"The two edged sword cuts the division and the two become one."
"The two edged sword cuts the division and the two become one."
We always seem to zero in on the two edged sword, but does it not read,
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any..." it's not the two edged sword that does the piercing and dividing, is it not? Just asking.
And cannot that veil be that division/dividing of this life(my life) and the realization/revealing of The Life, which is Spirit. Is that not what being born of the spirit is? Coming to know that what I am is temporal and that the more Christ in me is matured to Sonship? Thank you.
But you are right about the female soul thing :laughing7:
What's this about the female soul thing. I guess I missed that thread.
But before either of you answer (if you do) I will say that the soul is neither male nor female. What sex is a cherub?
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on July 10, 2013, 11:50:53 PM
What's this about the female soul thing. I guess I missed that thread.
But before either of you answer (if you do) I will say that the soul is neither male nor female. What sex is a cherub?
:LH: You will have to wait for someone who can lay it out and explain. It was sometime ago and I was the odd man out, so to speak. I for myself cannot, for I never knew how it came about.
What sex is a cherub? I have to respond with my opener.... :LH:
Some people liken the spirit to the male and the soul to the female..... I think it is kind of sexist myself (straight face on....is he SErIOUS?)
:laugh: :LH: Shame on me, not you sir. :dsunny:
:rolllol:
OK, enough LOL already.
When we have this:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
It should be remembered that "quick" should be understood as "living."
This too: soul (living person) - breath (spirit) ==> dead body.
Joints = pivots for movement.
Marrow = our inmost physical parts.
Thoughts and intents of the heart = our inmost mental parts.
So, we see that it means something like this: The Word of God is living, powerful, and sharper than anything. It can divide a soul into spirit and a dead body. It can penetrate to cripple the movement of the mortal body, or to affect its inmost parts. Not even our thoughts and intentions are secret or secure from its power.
Hebrews 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, for all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
There is nothing hidden in darkness that will not be brought to light.:o)
But all things become visible when they are brought to the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. Eph 5:13
When nothing else is hidden/veiled, God will be All in All..... :dsunny:
Behold, Thou desirest truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part thou wilt make me to know wisdom.....Psalm 51:6
The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord searching all the innermost parts of his being.... Prov 20:27
Quote from: Lazarus Short on July 11, 2013, 05:47:05 AM
OK, enough LOL already.
When we have this:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
It should be remembered that "quick" should be understood as "living."
This too: soul (living person) - breath (spirit) ==> dead body.
Joints = pivots for movement.
Marrow = our inmost physical parts.
Thoughts and intents of the heart = our inmost mental parts.
So, we see that it means something like this: The Word of God is living, powerful, and sharper than anything. It can divide a soul into spirit and a dead body. It can penetrate to cripple the movement of the mortal body, or to affect its inmost parts. Not even our thoughts and intentions are secret or secure from its power.
:thumbsup:
I think of the soul as a living being, be it a human or a lion.. the separating of lion (for instance) from his breath.. it's close because the breath gives life to the lion.. :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on July 11, 2013, 05:26:51 PM
I think of the soul as a living being, be it a human or a lion.. the separating of lion (for instance) from his breath.. it's close because the breath gives life to the lion.. :smile:
Exactly!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on July 11, 2013, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: marie glen on July 11, 2013, 05:26:51 PM
I think of the soul as a living being, be it a human or a lion.. the separating of lion (for instance) from his breath.. it's close because the breath gives life to the lion.. :smile:
Exactly!
yet, in all the creation up until Adam, there is no mention of the soul. Perhaps their is something unique about the soul of man, the creative process seems different. Also I do not see the imperative that says when the spirit leaves the body the soul ceases to exist. God CREATED each living human soul unique and bearing a CONSCIOUSNESS OF INDIVIDUAL BEING. It may not be as simple as just the sum of the parts, and it is , imo by no means absolutely clear in the scriptures that the soul ceases t exist at death.
The idea that Christ simply ceased to exist during the time between His crucifixion and resurrection doesnt work for me, personally- and I think it ignores some scripture- at least anyway, it is not conclusive.
Also, is the soul of a lion will be resurrected with its body, where do you draw that line? Just past dogs? MIce? Rats? Salamanders?
I am just wondering because I think maybe we do not understand the nature of the resurrection so well, since John said, "We know not yet what we shall be" and Paul spoke of "different glories" and "different bodies" as of the sun, the moon, the stars....... maybe some souls will be as a supernova while some will be as a piece of migratory space dust :o)
To answer, or only begin to answer, your doubts EW, I read a lot of meaning into these equations, which I derived from the creation of Adam:
lifeless body + Spirit/breath = living person/soul
living person/soul - Spirit/breath = lifeless body
At death, the Spirit returns to God who gave it, the lifeless body returns to the dust from which it was taken, and the soul can no longer be found, as it went "poof!".
Quote from: Lazarus Short on July 12, 2013, 02:40:23 AM
At death,1) the Spirit returns to God who gave it, 2) the lifeless body returns to the dust from which it was taken, and 3)the soul can no longer be found, as it went "poof!".
The first two statements are clear enough. The 3rd is an assumption(and may or may not be true). For instance, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus....even tho it IS only a parable... it is Jesus introducing the idea of souls in existance after death, before the resurrection. Also, the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" in Heb12 may indicate that the spirit of a person becomes more than just their "breath"- but retains their "identity/consciousness" once it has been joined together with the body and the soul. God is a spirit. He has made us "in His image". He is the I AM. We are also spirits with identities. Our spirit is US/ME/YOU- perhaps anyway or IMO- it is simplistic and does not take into account all the scriptures to say our spirit is "only" the breath of life.
There are other scriptures besides thes two I have mentioned as well that cause mme to question the concllusion that Christ ceased to exist between the crucifixion and the resurrection. Actually, I think it is impossible that Christ ever ceased to exist, since He created all things(Heb 1, Col 1) and in Him all things subsist and all things hold together by the word of His power.
Doesnt it present a logical conundrum to have the one in whom all things hold together cease to exist? even for a second, much less 3 days?
Hey EW according to the Bible, the Word of God, what is a soul? Now man's imagination can run wild, and offer what man considers to be a soul, and when the Greek interpretation is used then it is something other than what a soul is, the sentient of a being which are the emotions of a soul(breathing creature) is not a soul, a soul houses that sentient. .....Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Now whether that means or add anything to the disscusion, I don't know, but from what I have gleaned, a soul is, a breathing creature, be that lion, lamb, raccoon, snake, or a human being. :HeartThrob:
It is what I have read, so then what is a soul?
EW, I stand by the meaning of those equations, but for the special case of Jesus, I don't have an easy or quick answer. In time we shall have the facts.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 12, 2013, 03:25:22 AM
Hey EW according to the Bible, the Word of God, what is a soul? Now man's imagination can run wild, and offer what man considers to be a soul, and when the Greek interpretation is used then it is something other than what a soul is, the sentient of a being which are the emotions of a soul(breathing creature) is not a soul, a soul houses that sentient. .....Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Now whether that means or add anything to the disscusion, I don't know, but from what I have gleaned, a soul is, a breathing creature, be that lion, lamb, raccoon, snake, or a human being. :HeartThrob:
It is what I have read, so then what is a soul?
I dont necessarily object. i do not kno. I just would like to kno where you have gleaned. Until now, I have only seen man refferred to as a living soul. God created man uniquely, IMO..... I have known a few dogs that I could say have a soul :o)... it is just that, I here statements made as if they are truisms that stand on there own, but I have yet to see the proof. In those cases, whether it is what I see or contrary to what I see, I dont get the absolute confidence, as if it just cant be any other way- that I hear expressed by people of different persuasions.
With things like 1)the condition of the soul in death 2)the exact construction of the godhead 3)whether or not animals have souls 4)the nature of the spiritual body int the resurrection 5)pre-existent worlds before Genesis 1 and other things like thes over which Christians get up in arms......
I consider myself to be a
CHAMPION OF THE AMBIGUITY OF THE SCRIPTURES :banana:
For instance, Laz- what makes Jesus a special case? Did He not have a soul? Did His soul not disappear and go poof at His death? I am not syaing that I kno the answer either way, i just dont see how it can be one way when it fits(the formula) and another when it doesnt(special case Jesus)..... so, not to be argumentative(altho maybe I am a little LOL) I say.......we see through a glass darkly on some of these things and honest disciples may gather differing conclusions from the facts in evidence. :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 12, 2013, 08:26:47 AM
I consider myself to be a CHAMPION OF THE AMBIGUITY OF THE SCRIPTURES :banana:
For instance, Laz- what makes Jesus a special case? Did He not have a soul? Did His soul not disappear and go poof at His death? I am not syaing that I kno the answer either way, i just dont see how it can be one way when it fits(the formula) and another when it doesnt(special case Jesus)..... so, not to be argumentative(altho maybe I am a little LOL) I say.......we see through a glass darkly on some of these things and honest disciples may gather differing conclusions from the facts in evidence. :o)
EW, I humbly agree with you on much of what you say. You mention the "ambiguity of the Scriptures," and yes, a lot is left out, for except for telling details, much of the Bible is written with a rather broad brush. There is lots of room for interpreting things in different ways. As to Jesus, however, it cannot be argued that He is not a special case. I know that some (JW's for instance) argue that Jesus was only a man, but that won't wash with me. In the case of Jesus dying, I can only posit that the Spirit which returned to the Father was much more than mere breath (of life). If God is a Spiritual Being, and Jesus was fully God, that takes care of the Special Case, don't you think?
As to animals having souls, or as I see it, being souls, I recall that animals were once looked upon as little more than automatons, guided by instinct. In recent years, we have seen all the proposed differences between human and animal questioned and/or knocked down. Tool use, reasoning, creativity, response to love, emotional expression, ability to use symbols, and more, show us that our position above the other animals is a matter of degree, not a vast gulf. I still suspect that there is a difference in kind, but what is it? Is it our ability to think abstractly, or our ability to think beyond food and shelter? It's hard to pin down...
We do see through a glass darkly, but even on this side of the veil, we can learn and be in awe of what we discover of God and His creation...
Quote from: Lazarus Short on July 12, 2013, 05:23:35 PM
We do see through a glass darkly, but even on this side of the veil, we can learn and be in awe of what we discover of God and His creation...
Laz we do see through a glass darkly and some are beginning to see through the glass more clearly every day because:
Matthew 13
12 Those who understand these mysteries will be given more knowledge, and they will excel in understanding them. However, some people don't understand these mysteries. Even what they understand will be taken away from them.
I have some thoughts and reasonings regarding the creation and the dominion God gave Adam over the
earth..to rule over the fish of the sea,the birds of the ir over the livestock over all the earth and over all the
creatures that move along the ground.Let us make man in our image in our likeness...........
we are speaking of the restoration f all things..man...as God's administrator over creation. God in His sons
will hold loving dominion over all the works of Father's hands......
Jesus was amzed at the perception of the centurion..who while serving under an authority,also held
authority over others....in the reign of Rome. The Kingdom of heaven is no different. Headship is
administrtion........Father is Christ's headship/adminster, Christ is man's headship/administer,man is woman's
headship/administer...etc. togather....each has an alotted 'inheritance' in the true promised land..and hold
loving dominion/administration over the lesser creatures.
the smooth loving dominion of all creation and divine order will be restored out of all the chaos....
to reflect God's Glory and Majesty...and will result in constnt praise and songs of joy in the hearts
of all. Awesome Reverence of our divine inheritance in HIM[I am their inheritance]will be our continul
mindset.
I make all things new....what? will the new earth be void of all creatures but man? then how can man
display His image and likeness and dominion? The work of God's hands is to display His Glory!!!!!!
LOVING DOMINION IS GOD'S GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!
AND WHAT A GRAND DISPLAY IT WILL BE...for His spirit will dwell in all[no spirit of rebellion in operation
against any authority..or God given authority]
The final display being, after every adversary has bowed the knee, and God is all in all- the glorious liberty of the children of God(love) will have been distributed to every creature in heaven, on earth and under earth- the abolishing of all rule, power and authority, for where love is, there is no law but love.
"For I believe the sufferings of this present time are not to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility not of its own will, but because the one who subjected it planned it in hope, with a view to the creation being set free from corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know the entire creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now." Ro 8:18-22