God, satan and the naked man.

[WhiteWings]

*off topic*


John 20;
6 Simon Peter also, then, is coming, following him, and he entered into the tomb and he is beholding the swathings lying,
7 and the handkerchief which was on His head, not lying with the swathings, but folded up in one place apart.


This Scripture casts doubt on the Shroud of Turin.
For there are two separate cloths, not one, covering the Lord.

Jewish tradition demands that if the face of a dead person was in any way disfigured, it should be covered with a cloth to avoid people seeing this unpleasant sight. This would certainly have been the case with Jesus, whose face was covered in blood from the injuries produced by the crown of thorns and swollen from falling and being struck.

This is going off-topic. Still intresting so I would like to ask you to start a new thread. Then we can also discuss why Jesus could be maimed when He was crucified because  the sacrifician lamb needed to be in good condition. God didn't accept second rate sick animals. BTW very likely Jesus was stoned while on the cross.

[WhiteWings]

BS: Certain Jewish customs can be Babylonian corruption. But that doesn't do away the fact people did those things. A prime example of this is "The first day" The day of the the Wave sheaf offering.
Guess what... God "adjusted" to their misunderstandings.
The first day was the day after Sabbath.
Pharisees, the leading sect at that time, thought is was the day after the Saturday Sabbath.
But the Saducians, who "managed" the Temple, thought it was the first day after Passover which is also a Sabbath (High Sabbath)
The "adaption of God" iis that Pentecost is two days not one. So Jesus fulfilled both views.

Back on topic again.... :laughing7:

[Molly]

*off topic*


John 20;
6 Simon Peter also, then, is coming, following him, and he entered into the tomb and he is beholding the swathings lying,
7 and the handkerchief which was on His head, not lying with the swathings, but folded up in one place apart.


This Scripture casts doubt on the Shroud of Turin.
For there are two separate cloths, not one, covering the Lord.

Jewish tradition demands that if the face of a dead person was in any way disfigured, it should be covered with a cloth to avoid people seeing this unpleasant sight. This would certainly have been the case with Jesus, whose face was covered in blood from the injuries produced by the crown of thorns and swollen from falling and being struck.

This is going off-topic. Still intresting so I would like to ask you to start a new thread. Then we can also discuss why Jesus could be maimed when He was crucified because  the sacrifician lamb needed to be in good condition. God didn't accept second rate sick animals. BTW very likely Jesus was stoned while on the cross.

He is the sacrificial lamb to us, but could it be because he was the scapegoat to the Jews?  I don't start threads.

The scapegoat was a goat that was designated (Hebrew לַעֲזָאזֵֽל ) la-aza'zeyl; either "for absolute removal" (Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon) or possibly "for Azazel" (some modern versions taking the term as a name) and outcast in the desert as part of the ceremonies of the Day of Atonement, that began during the Exodus with the original Tabernacle and continued through the times of the temples in Jerusalem.

Throughout the year and on the Day of Atonement, the record of all the sins of the Israelites was transferred to the Tabernacle by the blood of the sacrifices. On the Day of Atonement, the tabernacle was cleansed of all the accumulated sins by the ritual described in Leviticus 16. At that time the high priest confesses the accumulated sins of the Children of Israel to the scapegoat which is then sent into the desert wilderness. The Tabernacle and the Children of Israel were thus cleansed of sin.[6]

--Wikipedia

[WhiteWings]

He is the sacrificial lamb to us, but could it be because he was the scapegoat to the Jews?

No. He was the scapegoat when He was 40 days in the wildernes. That's a clear pattern.

[sheila]

 so then..when His flesh took on the 'appearance' of sin..it  was afflicted and marred...and perished in the wilderness....'goat[scape[' = sin in flesh....

  but the sheep/spirit followed and obeyed Father[you men are sheep and I am your God] so..then He really is the pattern son...and we better understand

  the seperating of the sheep and goats at judgement

[WhiteWings]

Not sure I understand everything you wrote Sheila.
But I'm fairly sure the real animal goat was not seen as evil (Leviticus said goats are equally suited for (passover) sacrifice as sheep).
The goat didn't become evil either. The priests symbolically laid all sins on the head of the goat. So basically the goat was for transportation only.
Jesus was both goats.
A priest did casts lots. One goat was sacrificed in the Temple. The other one was send into the wilderness.
In my understanding Jesus died during baptism (water grave). That was the first goat.
Then the goat was led into the wilderness by a fit man. Goat=Jesus, fit man=HS

^ACVLeviticus 16
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the sons of Israel, and all their transgressions, even all their sins. And he shall put them upon the head of the goat, a

I think there are also some parallels with the 2 doves. One is killed and the wing of the other dove is dipped in the blood and then the dove is set free.

His flesh took on the 'appearance' of sin

I think that's not correct. The sin was on the head of Jesus/the goat, but in my understanding that sin didn't enter the body.

BTW I think this whole thing means it was Atonement day when He was baptized. The way I understand that system may sound odd to some of you.
It was the Jewish (false?) belief that God did not forgive sins during the year.
In a year many sacrifices were made in the Temple. The ritual was that the priest took some blood and poured it under the altar. The fresh blood then was covered with dust. (sins covered) Basically the sins were stored under the altar for up-to a year.
The sins the priest put on the goats head was that dust. When the goat walked away the sin finally were gone.
Could be wrong on some details but that was basically how the system worked.
Now I wonder how the dust was put on the head of Jesus.....?

[Beloved Servant]

Maybe His own Flesh was the dust.

[micah7:9]

BTW I think this whole thing means it was Atonement day when He was baptized. The way I understand that system my sound odd to some of you.
It was the Jewish (false?) belief that God did not forgive sins during the year.
In a year many sacrifices were made in the Temple. The ritual was that the priest took some blood and poured it under the altar. The fresh blood then was covered with dust. (sins covered) Basically the sins were stored under the altar for up-to a year.
The sins the priest put on the goats head was that dust. When the goat walked away the sin finally were gone.
Could be wrong on some details but that was basically how the system worked.
Now I wonder how the dust was put on the head of Jesus.....?

Im just wondering, and I may not be looking at it correctly, but did not the Jewish priests from a certain time on to even today, change/ or configure these laws? I worked for a Jewish family(family owned and I worked close with the son in law) and we were very close, I was young and continued to witness to all them of Jesus. We had our discussions and one time I asked did they still offer the blood sacrifices? And of course he said no. I said then what do you do and surprised to me he said
we pray. My point is, and I know you study much in to the OT and Hebrew ways. Whats to say that how you have just explained it had not been changed to some other way? I probably should have sent this PM.

[sheila]

 yeah,ww..but would not the sin placed on it make it 'wicked" it was never to enter the Holy city again..but to perish in the wilderness...not evil in itself[flesh]

  but the sin in it

[Molly]

yeah,ww..but would not the sin placed on it make it 'wicked" it was never to enter the Holy city again..but to perish in the wilderness...not evil in itself[flesh]

but the sin in it

"to perish in the wilderness"


My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?
 

[WhiteWings]

Good question Micah. Jews never were without flaws. It was for a reason Jews argued so much with the Scribes. But I think they kept to their rituals fairly well. Until Jerusalem got destroyed. From that point one it went downhill. But that's just my guess.
The goat sacrifice is correct as I wrote it. You can read Leviticus 16 to check. (Leviticus contains much of their rituals)
But to be honest I don't remember if I found the blood/dust under the altar in the OT or is Jewish commentary.
But we can also approach the your question from another angle. I just assume most Jews were God fearing people that prayed for forgiveness every day. So basically if you pray 1 second after you sin it's forgiven almost instantly.
But then what's the use of Atonement day? God already has forgiven all sins. So the day must have had some use. If we look a bit closer at Leviticus we see at that day the sins of the nation were forgiven.
And that I don't understand. Nations don't sin. A nation is a dead thing. Soil, border, taxes and laws. It's the people in it that sin. Those people already asked and likely received forgiveness.
But still it's one of most important religious days. I think the most important one. Even more as Passover.

Could the Jews have corrupted the goat sacrifice? Yes! Did they even do it when Jesus lived? I don't know! Should we care? No! I think it's of zero importance because I'm sure Leviticus wrote it down correctly and Jesus performed the ritual correctly. So should we really bother what the other Jews did or didn't do? Only the fact that Jesus did it correctly matters....


I'm no Rabbi... so all the above is approximately how it was done. Handle with care  :winkgrin:

[micah7:9]

Good question Micah. Jews never were without flaws. It was for a reason Jews argued so much with the Scribes. But I think they kept to their rituals fairly well. Until Jerusalem got destroyed. From that point one it went downhill. But that's just my guess.
The goat sacrifice is correct as I wrote it. You can read Leviticus 16 to check. (Leviticus contains much of their rituals)
But to be honest I don't remember if I found the blood/dust under the altar in the OT or is Jewish commentary.
But we can also approach the your question from another angle. I just assume most Jews were God fearing people that prayed for forgiveness every day. So basically if you pray 1 second after you sin it's forgiven almost instantly.
But then what's the use of Atonement day? God already has forgiven all sins. So the day must have had some use. If we look a bit closer at Leviticus we see at that day the sins of the nation were forgiven.
And that I don't understand. Nations don't sin. A nation is a dead thing. Soil, border, taxes and laws. It's the people in it that sin. Those people already asked and likely received forgiveness.
But still it's one of most important religious days. I think the most important one. Even more as Passover.

Could the Jews have corrupted the goat sacrifice? Yes! Did they even do it when Jesus lived? I don't know! Should we care? No! I think it's of zero importance because I'm sure Leviticus wrote it down correctly and Jesus performed the ritual correctly. So should we really bother what the other Jews did or didn't do? Only the fact that Jesus did it correctly matters....


I'm no Rabbi... so all the above is approximately how it was done. Handle with care  :winkgrin:

:grin:I like it! :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

yeah,ww..but would not the sin placed on it make it 'wicked" it was never to enter the Holy city again..but to perish in the wilderness...not evil in itself[flesh]

  but the sin in it

That raises some questions.

Did Jesus become (wicked for a while)?  --> Think not.
Got Jesus did enter the city many times after that.
Did Jesus perish? I know some on this forum say we must die to ourself etc. Was Jesus imperfect so He also had to die to Himself? Jesus was loaded with lots and lots of sins of Israel when He met satan. The way I read it satan had zero grip on the situation. If anything perished in that wildernes it was satan not Jesus.
The scapegoat wasn't killed it was set free. Very possible it died from hunger and thrist but it wasn't killed.

BTW I've just reread Leviticus and I can't find nothing about dust on the goat's head. Leviticus just mentions laying 2 hands on the head and confess the sins of the nation. But I'm sure I've read about the dust. Maybe it's hidden in Hebrew word meanings???
It;s of lesser importance i think. But about the laying of hands.... did John the Baptist do that with Jesus?

[micah7:9]

"did John the Baptist do that with Jesus?"

I dont know how they baptized, but I am sure John had to have two hands on Him if he lowered Him into the Jordan, whether on the head, that I do not know.

[sheila]

 He that knew no sin,become sin[when He was on the cross/serpent]..let us suffer outside the camp....set free to wander and perish in the wilderness.....just

  as that evil generation perished and did not enter into promised land

[micah7:9]

He that knew no sin,become sin[when He was on the cross/serpent]..let us suffer outside the camp....set free to wander and perish in the wilderness.....just

  as that evil generation perished and did not enter into promised land

Just to clarify, "He that knew no sin, become sin..."   He who knew no sin became a sin-offering, He did not become sin. Im sure you meant that. :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

Amen.   :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

2 Cor 5;21

   God made him who had no sin,to be sin 'for us".....and yes,  maybe it is the translation NIV...yes, He bore 'our sins' He had none of His own :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

"bore" means "carry".
That was exactly what the goat did. Carry away sins and dump them somewere in the wilderness.
The Greek word sin means:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
5) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin

All standard stuff. But if we look at the uncertain root of that word we find G1 as a negative particle Alpha. The beginning.
And the more certain G3313

1) a part
1a) a part due or assigned to one
1b) lot, destiny
2) one of the constituent parts of a whole
2a) in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually
2b) any particular, in regard to this, in this respect

Priests casts lots over the two goats.
So with some selective chosing of defenitions we also can (wrongly???) change the verse into: His lot/share was to carry our sins.


Mmmm, back to the OP please. Are there any paralells for all three persons involved?

[WhiteWings]

Casting lots was done quite frequently by the priests. Lots were also be cast for the 2 goats. Nothing is recorded about John the Baptist casting lots for the 2 Jesus goats.
The lots were not random. God controlled them and so expressed His will regarding the goats. When Jesus emerged from the water a voice from heaven said He loved The Son. Maybe the whole purpose of this event is that God approved Jesus with His voice instead of the usual lot.
?????????????

[jabcat]

Casting lots was done quite frequently by the priests. Lots were also be cast for the 2 goats. Nothing is recorded about John the Baptist casting lots for the 2 Jesus goats.
The lots were not random. God controlled them and so expressed His will regarding the goats. When Jesus emerged from the water a voice from heaven said He loved The Son. Maybe the whole purpose of this event is that God approved Jesus with His voice instead of the usual lot.
?????????????

I don't know, but I like the thoughts.   :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

The Roman soldiers cast lots over the garment of Jesus. What should I learn from that?

[WhiteWings]

who is this man I wonder?

I don't think he left the linen cloth behind I think perhaps, a tree branch got hold of it or something.

Jesus was wrapped in a linen cloth. I wonder if that cloth was left behind by that man?
I doubt the wealthy Nicodemeus would use some cloth he found to wrap Jesus. I also doubt such a costly cloth would lay there for more than an hour.
But still I wonder......

[Beloved Servant]

Adam.

[WhiteWings]

*off topic*


John 20;
6 Simon Peter also, then, is coming, following him, and he entered into the tomb and he is beholding the swathings lying,
7 and the handkerchief which was on His head, not lying with the swathings, but folded up in one place apart.


This Scripture casts doubt on the Shroud of Turin.
For there are two separate cloths, not one, covering the Lord.

Yes and no.
Jesus was wrapped in a single cloth on crucifixion day.
After the following Sabbath Joseph and Nicodemus removed that cloth.
They came to wrap Jesus in a 100 pounds of myrth and aloes with linen stripS.

(Matt 27:59) And taking the body, Joseph wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,


sindo
Thayer Definition:
1) linen cloth, especially that which was fine and costly, in which the bodies of the dead were wrapped
2) thing made of fine cloth
2a) of a light and loose garment worn at night over a naked body


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(John 19:38) And after this, Joseph from Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away the body of Jesus.

....more than a day passes....


(John 19:39) And there came also Nicodemus, who at the first came to Jesus by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight.
(John 19:40) They took therefore the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the custom of the Jews to prepare for burial.

othonion
Thayer Definition:
1) a piece of linen, small linen cloth
2) strips of linen cloth for swathing the dead