God has already determined who the next president will be:
Rom 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God, (2) so that he who is resisting an authority has withstood God's mandate. Now those who have withstood, will be getting judgment for themselves,
Isn't it nice to know that the next president is the one God has already chosen to lead our country? This gives me much consolation for I know that the direction our country goes is the direction God has already mandated.
I even find it consoling that God put Hitler and Stalin into the position of leaders. And what about all the evil they did? God will transform all that evil by His divine alchemy into the greatest good possible.
Whether McCain or Obama is president, the one elected into the highest office in the land will be put there by God. We, as Christians, should pray for them and we should lead a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity (1 Tim.2:1-3) and this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God.
That so witnesses with my spirit. God will place anyone at any time where and how fits His plan, including President. I understand my calling as a believer to be in line with God's Word and plans as best I know how...for instance, in my case at least, not feeling the freedom to vote for someone who wants to take away all limits on abortion. The nation/people that murders its innocents...what's the verse?
I also believe the only rebel-rousing I am called to do is "turn the world upside down for Jesus"...declaring the Good News...which I'm afraid I'm doing very little of. Just talking with my wife today about each man's spirit coming from God, going back to God, and what made Hitler be Hitler, will no longer exist when it's gone through God's "fire". Praise God, and good post, Tony. God's blessing, James.
God has determined that the next president is Mr. Obama. May we all pray for him that God would give him the wisdom to run this country correctly.
God save the king! well, president!
Tony
I'm happy :Sparkletooth:
I just wish the news media would stop comparing him to JFK since the JFK situation didn't end well.
Since he'll have to speak softly and carry a big stick, and since some are scared of what his spending habits are liable to be, then maybe a comparison with either of the Roosevelts would be more appropriate.
8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.
--Isa 6
4Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
10And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
11And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
17He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
19Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
20That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
--1 Sam 8
Actually, Molly, the Scriptures you quoted aren't applicable because the Mosaic Law had Israel under a Republican form of government, contrary to those that'll try to say that Republican ideas began with Greece. But Israel was to choose leaders of 10s, 50s, 100s, and 1000s (or something like that if I got the exact numbers wrong), which was the local, county, state, and federal system that the founding fathers of the U.S. looked at that as a Scriptural pattern for in the system that they devised. Israel wanted a King, but God already had Israel as a Republic with elected representatives. The Mosaic Law was the foundation of Israel's Republic, whereas the founding fathers of the U.S. were emphatic in their writings that the United States was to be based on the New Testament, though not a particular sect/denomination.
As you probably know, the intent of separation of church and state to keep the government out of the business of the Church and to keep segments of the Church from crusading against other denominations in this country. Some conservatives like David Barton will say that the principle of separation of Church and state was only to limit the power of the state, but it included some limitations on the Church -- though not the ones we all sigh under today. It was to prevent Philadelphia, for instance, from becoming Calvin's Geneva where Calvin plotted the murder of Miguel Servetus for years and then finally got it done because dude had taken issue with his "Institutes" and had also critiqued his version of the trinity doctrine.
Elements of Church-state rule still made it into some of the state constitutions and how things were done, so that clergy back then were paid by the state even into the 1800s. Some of the denominations tried to use that as leverage against the Christian Universalist Church, so the Universalists had to go to court and get that over turned so that other denominations couldn't require them to pay a tax to Churches that they weren't members of or in harmony with. While it was a practical victory that needed to be won, I've often wondered if it was one of the legal precidents that in following decades got taken too far and got twisted into the present level of animosity between Church and state.
Barack Obama's win is actually a major victory on the part of the abolitionists of history in the United States. We'd always had African American judges in this country, going all of the way back into the 1700s, and we'd had African American members of congress in the mid-1800s. But the office of the Presidency always seemed like a glass ceiling. Alan Keyes, Jesse Jackson, and various others over the years have made repeated attempts at getting elected and couldn't. This signals a new day, that as MLK said, people will be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin.
Barack Obama's not going to be the nightmare that many conservatives fear. Otherwise, Colin Powell, myself, and tens of thousands of others that had formerly voted Republican wouldn't have voted Democratic this time. I'm not going to turn this thread into a defense of Obama, but this goes along with prophecies that I've heard in Charismatic circles going all of the way back into the early 1990s. This actually was a move of God, although it's one of those where a lot of people feel like God has a whole lotta splaining to do over this one! :laughing7:
Anyway, moments after the election results were announced last night, I got sent this link from Carlton Pearson if anybody's interested. The audio's even very dial-up friendly:
http://www.inclusioninternational.com/pearsonspeaks/v1i8/ (http://www.inclusioninternational.com/pearsonspeaks/v1i8/)
What Americans have forgotten is that their God made them the king. YOU are the king. Your God gave you a Constitution that makes you a sovereign king within a sovereign State within a Sovereign country. But you have forgotten that. You have rejected God as a people. And, to your downfall, you have rejected yourself as a king with God given rights sealed in the contract you have with your government.
The first Declaration of these united STATES declares only one King over us, the One whom they called the Supreme Judge of the world, the King of kings, Lord Jesus Christ.
We don't need 'change.' We need restoration.
Every election the winners gloat and the losers whine and talk about how horrible things are going to be now.
And after every election life goes on and you get up in the morning and do what ya gotta do.
Overhere we get a new Obama every 4 year.
Lots of change..... new names.... new taxes.... new problems.... new lies....
That about sums it. Then we vote for more change :mshock:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2008, 11:20:38 PM
Overhere we get a new Obama every 4 year.
Lots of change..... new names.... new taxes.... new problems.... new lies....
That about sums it. Then we vote for more change :mshock:
You don't have our Constitution.
But, we still have it--barely...hanging by a thread...
Quote from: Molly on November 05, 2008, 11:26:24 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2008, 11:20:38 PM
Overhere we get a new Obama every 4 year.
Lots of change..... new names.... new taxes.... new problems.... new lies....
That about sums it. Then we vote for more change :mshock:
You don't have our Constitution.
Must be nice living in a dream Molly :egyptdance:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2008, 11:32:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 05, 2008, 11:26:24 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2008, 11:20:38 PM
Overhere we get a new Obama every 4 year.
Lots of change..... new names.... new taxes.... new problems.... new lies....
That about sums it. Then we vote for more change :mshock:
You don't have our Constitution.
Must be nice living in a dream Molly :egyptdance:
Meaning what?
I'm living in reality. It's everyone else who is living in a brain washed trance that leads them to believe you have to enslave yourself to protect your freedom.
As believers I would hope there would be a concern about all limits being removed from abortion and the connected issues, including the likely appointments of abortion (aka, the shedding of innocent blood) friendly supreme court judges. I understand morality can't be legislated, and I also understand the current wars have killed a lot of innocents as well.
:dontknow:, but my conscience just wouldn't allow me to ever vote for someone so pro abortion. On the other hand, you know how it works :laughing7:, I probably do things your conscience would never allow you to do. Oh well, no room to judge, each one's own conscience before the Lord and all that. James.
P.S. My dear brother Martin, to you directly.... could you please explain, given the above issues, how we can see this as a "positive" move of God? (I know God's in control, etc., but my take would be more along the lines of judgment, not something for us to be ecstatic about...my :2c:). God's blessing, James.
Molly, just a quick question, but are you a Ron Paul supporter by any chance? For me, an Obama presidency just means that the Campaign for Liberty (and myself) will have to work harder for our civil liberties and Constitution.
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on November 06, 2008, 05:46:22 AM
Molly, just a quick question, but are you a Ron Paul supporter by any chance? For me, an Obama presidency just means that the Campaign for Liberty (and myself) will have to work harder for our civil liberties and Constitution.
Yes I like Ron Paul and others who support the Constitution and are working hard to restore our Republic. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2008, 12:37:27 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2008, 11:32:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 05, 2008, 11:26:24 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 05, 2008, 11:20:38 PM
Overhere we get a new Obama every 4 year.
Lots of change..... new names.... new taxes.... new problems.... new lies....
That about sums it. Then we vote for more change :mshock:
You don't have our Constitution.
Must be nice living in a dream Molly :egyptdance:
Meaning what?
I'm living in reality. It's everyone else who is living in a brain washed trance that leads them to believe you have to enslave yourself to protect your freedom.
Just try to read what I wrote.
Politicians all over the world, so not just US, make lots of promisses to please the ear during elections.
After the elections... the real agenda opens.
Then you answer with "You don't have our Constitution." just like it's the most flawless system ever created. This is not a political forum so lets just say all systems all over the world are flawed.
Just assume some or to make you happy only the US system was designed perfectly.
The USA system/organisation/country.gov is just a dead thing. It doesn't act good or bad. It's the people inside that do the things.
And we all know not all have good intentions.
America isn't that old so look to the bloodshed in the history of Europe for an instant.
Europe lived by the only perfect law! It was living according to the Bible. Sounds good doesn't it?
But still there was an endless string of wars that had religious roots.
Or perhaps just people that used religion to get their pockets filled.
A few miles from where I live a many witches where burned (on weekly/daily basis). All according to the Bible ofcourse.... :-(
My point is this:
Take a good of a bad thing. Give it to mankind and it will be wrecked even further. Maybe only by the powerhunger elite; but still wrecked.
Didn't the Bible exactly foretold that? Nothing will work out until Jesus becomes King.
well let's say everyone was Jesus--meaning they had the mind of Christ.
Would there be wars? Would witches be burned? Would neighbors defame each other? Would one group torture another group?
But we have a Constitution that even protects morons from themselves [the Bill of Rights]. It has to be corrupted and destroyed before this country is broken, because it is such a firewall between the government and the rights of the people, and between one group and another. It is a guarantee against tyrannical power as long as it is not changed or defanged [which is already happening, as everyone knows.] If we don't reverse this process, we will sink under the veil of darkness as the rest of the world has done.
Until everyone is Jesus, we need to keep our Constitution in place, not diluted by hate crimes bills and gun control bills and patriot [they are mocking you with that name] acts. The guns will be the last to go because the first thing every modern tyrant has done before he finally brings down the iron fist of the dictator is to disarm the people. When that happens, it will be the end.
No other nation on earth has a Constitution like ours. Why do you suppose that is? Why don't you try to get a Bill of Rights like ours passed by the European Union and see how far you get with that. And, yet our Founders knew that every sovereign nation should have the same Constitution we do.
"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference."
--Thomas Jefferson
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2008, 03:10:22 PM
Would there be wars? Would witches be burned? Would neighbors defame each other? Would one group torture another group?
QuoteBut we have a Constitution that even protects morons from themselves [the Bill of Rights]. It has to be corrupted and destroyed before this country is broken, because it is such a firewall between the government and the rights of the people, and between one group and another.
I know it's very hard to accept for you but the same goes for most of the countries of Europe.
QuoteIt is a guarantee against tyrannical power as long as it is not changed or defanged [which is already happening, as everyone knows.] If we don't reverse this process,
Same in many other countries. I know you see it that way. But i'm glad you see things go downhill in the USA. Not because the good intend of the constitution. Or the majority of the citizens. But because the morons as you call them.
That's a global problem. And that was and still is my point.
Quotewe will sink under the veil of darkness as the rest of the world has done.
It may come as a supprise but according many around the world the USA IS the veil.... :laughing7:
Not for me BTW because I can see the difference between citizens and politicians....
I know, Molly, Europeans are barbarians. But we do have PCs :laughing7:
QuoteIt may come as a supprise but according many around the world the USA IS the veil....
Not for me BTW because I can see the difference between citizens and politicians....
I know, Molly, Europeans are barbarians. But we do have PCs
Of course I am aware of that, and I am also aware that we have a perfect system that was set up for us by our Constitution, if only we can be true to it. Just like we have a perfect Bible if only we can be true to it.
Where does Jesus say to torture people [the Inquisition], burn witches, wage war, kill people you don't like, suppress the rights of citizens?
Nowhere. So if you see a religious organization supporting such things, know that they are wolves in sheep's clothing, and if you see governments supporting such things, know the same.
QuoteI know it's very hard to accept for you but the same goes for most of the countries of Europe.
We don't have a history of a king or a parliament or feudal lords. We are a young country compared to Europe and have the mindset that everyone is equal. This is a divine concept right out of the Bible; we are all equal before the LORD.
:dontknow: Trying to "govern" myself is about as political as I get.
These verses caught my eye this morning:
Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Would THIS not be the power that we should concern ourselves with? I mean....really?
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
Quote from: joyful1 on November 06, 2008, 04:11:09 PM
:dontknow: Trying to "govern" myself is about as political as I get.
These verses caught my eye this morning:
Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Would THIS not be the power that we should concern ourselves with? I mean....really?
well, yes, what do you think our Founders were doing? And we all enjoy their fruit over 200 years later.
Quote
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
[/color]
Yes and he also said
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Quote from: joyful1 on November 06, 2008, 04:11:09 PM
:dontknow: Trying to "govern" myself is about as political as I get.
These verses caught my eye this morning:
Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Would THIS not be the power that we should concern ourselves with? I mean....really?
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
well Joyful....to summarize...The Kingdoms Come, for it comes within. through the POWER you mention...
WHICH ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE IS
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only,
but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake :icon_flower:
Thanks for your replies, Molly and Taffy--
Molly--
you mentioned that Jesus said... "thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven..."
I honestly thought of that (previously) as a one time happening in the world, much like the desciples did when they asked Jesus point blank;
"WHEN" would the kingdom come?
But now, it seems to me that this happens within each person at some point in their lives, or for some, beyond the grave in the next age.
For instance:
Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
so....if this is being worked out in the lives of everyone, everywhere, in all of history and now, then....
WHEN is not the question...but WHERE?
The Kingdom of God is within you.
Taffy--
absolutely...but did I miss your main point?
I sometimes struggle to maintain clarity, help me out if I've not seen what you want to say. :icon_flower:
QuoteBut now, it seems to me that this happens within each person at some point in their lives, or for some, beyond the grave in the next age.
Yes, it is a kingdom within, but doesn't the tree produce fruit according to its type? And, if you were to suddenly turn and see Jesus in all directions, wouldn't it be a glorious world? He is here now, and someday, the mountain of God will fill the whole world.
QuoteTaffy--
absolutely...but did I miss your main point?
I sometimes struggle to maintain clarity, help me out if I've not seen what you want to say
Hi Again J :icon_flower:
Amen...no need to Clarify sis, just added the scriptural definition OF WHO this POWER is...Just incase some may HAVE thought its an external Force, oppossed to that WHICH happens Inwardly :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2008, 04:04:59 PM
Of course I am aware of that, and I am also aware that we have a perfect system that was set up for us by our Constitution,
You have no perfect system.
The first and last perfect system will be setup by Jesus. Not by man.
QuoteWhere does Jesus say to torture people [the Inquisition], burn witches, wage war, kill people you don't like, suppress the rights of citizens
Nowhere. So if you see a religious organization supporting such things, know that they are wolves in sheep's clothing, and if you see governments supporting such things, know the same.?
I 100% agree with that. I also believe those that have written your constitution haven't slept for ages because the wanted to get it super perfect.
But menkind wrecked all good intentions.
And your founders where scared of that too. Why? Well simply because in a perfect world you need no laws for any crime whatsover.
Do you think if earth was populated by 6 biljon Jesus' there would be a need for a law against theft and murder?
QuoteQuoteI know it's very hard to accept for you but the same goes for most of the countries of Europe.
We don't have a history of a king or a parliament or feudal lords. We are a young country compared to Europe and have the mindset that everyone is equal. This is a divine concept right out of the Bible; we are all equal before the LORD.
Sure. You have a new country. And yes Europe has a very voilent history. And still is far from perfect.
This will raise your bloodpresse I fear but really the US system isn't that different. When all blabla is gone after elections in the US and Europe then power is always concentrated in (nearly) one spot.
Get out your gun now Molly!
QuoteThis is a divine concept right out of the Bible; we are all equal before the LORD
Sounds like Communism. EEKS
Not the religious part but all are equal.
Sounds like a dream until a maniak like Stalin assumed he was more equal.
=> Animal Farm by George Orwell
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2008, 04:50:38 PM
QuoteBut now, it seems to me that this happens within each person at some point in their lives, or for some, beyond the grave in the next age.
Yes, it is a kingdom within, but doesn't the tree produce fruit according to its type? And, if you were to suddenly turn and see Jesus in all directions, wouldn't it be a glorious world? He is here now, and someday, the mountain of God will fill the whole world.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
I see such fruit as acts of MERCY and NOT judgment Molly, likened to the Above ...Judgment Brought DEATH , NOT the LIFE it speaks of....HE being such Fruit
IN US...we being likened to the Good samaritan , who shows Mercy and Not Judgment as those who passed Him By on THE OTHER SIDE....only TWO sides MOLLY,..LAW versus Grace and Truth
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
QuoteSounds like Communism. EEKS
Not the religious part but all are equal.
Sounds like a dream until a maniak like Stalin assumed he was more equal.
=> Animal Farm by George Orwell
Not exactly, since communism like all systems of satan, perverts the things of God. If you've read Orwell, then you know that
all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others in the communist system. That's the perversion. The king is more equal, the dictator is more equal, the totalitarian state is more equal.
Marx is a liar,just like satan.
Compare that to Thomas Jefferson--
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. I have a God given right to Life, to Liberty, and to the pursuit of Happiness. My rights cannot be alienated because they are God given. And, they are spelled out in the Bill of Rights. That's freedom.
You and I are different but equal, even within the body of Christ.
QuoteWhen all blabla is gone after elections in the US and Europe then power is always concentrated in (nearly) one spot.
Again, to the extent that is true (and I agree with you), it is a perversion of our system. And all it would take is for everyone to know the truth and wake up out of their trance to reverse that.
QuoteYou have no perfect system.
The first and last perfect system will be setup by Jesus. Not by man.
We have the most perfect system this side of Christ, then, if only people knew what it is. [Hint:it's not screaming and cheering and suspending all rational thought in the presence of a demagogue. They already tried that with Hitler.]
I happen to believe our Founders were inspired by God.
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2008, 05:12:25 PM
QuoteSounds like Communism. EEKS
Not the religious part but all are equal.
Sounds like a dream until a maniak like Stalin assumed he was more equal.
=> Animal Farm by George Orwell
QuoteNot exactly, since communism like all systems of satan, perverts the things of God. If you've read Orwell, then you know that all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others in the communist system.
I did read the book, Molly, that's why I used the rather famous 'more equal' quote
QuoteThat's the perversion. The king is more equal, the dictator is more equal, the totalitarian state is more equal.
True.
You seem to have read Animal Farm. Then you understand what I tried to explain in earlier message.
The farm=system was corrupt. The farmer was a dictator. Change in power. All became equal for a short while. All animals had a voice.
The orginal system was great and to the satifaction of all. Almost all. The pigs went greedy and introduced the concept 'more equal' (isn't a president more equal?) The pigs lived in the farmers house and the other animals in the cold. Things got corrupter everyday until the pigs started to sell the other animals to the meat factory.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
So to summarize.
The US constitution (like some others) is near perfect good seed. But unfortunately the seed is/got polluted by weed.
Sounds almost Biblical :laughing7:
QuoteI see such fruit as acts of MERCY and NOT judgment Molly, likened to the Above ...Judgment Brought DEATH , NOT the LIFE it speaks of....HE being such Fruit IN US...we being likened to the Good samaritan , who shows Mercy and Not Judgment as those who passed Him By on THE OTHER SIDE....only TWO sides MOLLY,..LAW versus Grace and Truth
God gives us the law so that as long as we are filled with dead man's bones we will still know the right thing to do. And, guess what--the law includes mercy.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. --Mat 23
QuoteThe orginal system was great and to the satifaction of all. Almost all. The pigs went greedy and introduced the concept 'more equal' (isn't a president more equal?) The pigs lived in the farmers house and the other animals in the cold. Things got corrupter everyday until the pigs started to sell the other animals to the meat factory.
The 'more equal' is built into the system of communism. Do you think Marx, Trotsky, Stalin, and Lenin were just an accident of history? Just a few 'greedy pigs'? Of course not, it was always planned to come out exactly the way it happened. Study history.
Our president is not 'more equal.' He is just the bureaucrat in charge of the executive branch of our government. And he is required to take an oath to our Constitution, with his hand on the Bible, even if he is secretly crossing his fingers behind his back.
QuoteBut unfortunately the seed is/got polluted by weed.
Sounds almost Biblical
It is. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2008, 05:48:02 PM
QuoteI see such fruit as acts of MERCY and NOT judgment Molly, likened to the Above ...Judgment Brought DEATH , NOT the LIFE it speaks of....HE being such Fruit IN US...we being likened to the Good samaritan , who shows Mercy and Not Judgment as those who passed Him By on THE OTHER SIDE....only TWO sides MOLLY,..LAW versus Grace and Truth
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
--Mat 23
Indeed MOLLY, for first came the LAW,The LAW points To WHO is the
MAGNIFICATION of it Molly...lest we keep the saturday sabbath all over...,tis for mine ,the spiritual which it points to,,but first the natural....
HE who is the WEIGHTieR matter, speaks of RIGHTEOUS judgment WHICH Brings LIFE, Mercy\compassion ( FAITH.)
we toO exercise RIGHTEOUS\TRUE JUDGMENT, which dear one INCLUDES MERCY.
Zach 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
Execute true judgment, and
shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.
Those pharisees Judge after the
Flesh, that is ,by appearance...
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but
judge righteous judgment.
men are AFTER THE FLESH molly, that is ,ones Herat and Mind being enmity
John 8:15 Ye
judge after the flesh; "I
judge no man".
again when one is spirit , born within, NO flesh JUDGES US....
1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet
he himself is judged of no man 2Samuel 2:22 With the
merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and
with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright. Luke 6:36 Be ye
therefore merciful, AS your
Father also is merciful.
which MOLLY for mine, aligns up Very MUCH to the WORDS of our LORD ,noted in last POST
:icon_flower:
There is a time in every man's education when he arrives at the conviction that envy is ignorance; that imitation is suicide; that he must take himself for better for worse as his portion; that though the wide universe is full of good, no kernel of nourishing corn can come to him but through his toil bestowed on that plot of ground which is given to him to till. The power which resides in him is new in nature, and none but he knows what that is which he can do, nor does he know until he has tried. Not for nothing one face, one character, one fact makes much impression on him, and another none. This sculpture in the memory is not without preéstablishcd harmony. The eye was placed where one ray should fall, that it might testify of that particular ray. We but half express ourselves, and are ashamed of that divine idea which each of us represents. It may be safely trusted as proportionate and of good issues, so it be faithfully imparted, but God will not have his work made manifest by cowards.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self Reliance
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2008, 01:25:58 AM
P.S. My dear brother Martin, to you directly.... could you please explain, given the above issues, how we can see this as a "positive" move of God? (I know God's in control, etc., but my take would be more along the lines of judgment, not something for us to be ecstatic about...my :2c:). God's blessing, James.
All I'll say is that I've known for close to 3 years who was going to get elected in '08. A lot of prophetic voices were saying who the next President would be since about '05 and '06. I'm sure some of those folks are updating their websites with their version of "told ya! and you can relive it with the DVD of that meeting for your tax deductible donation of $25!" I'm just waiting to see everybody and their dog with that on their webpage over this one. :laughing7: And it'll be for real 99% of the time 'cause I was either in the meetings, in contact with them, or watching it on TBN, Church Channel, DayStar, or wherever. I'll send you some links if they do 'cause there were a lot of folks on TBN and all over the place getting a Word about this. The ol' "prophesy in part" probably still applies as far as just because somebody knew who'd get elected, that doesn't mean they've already been a fly on the wall about all that'll happen. There's a Scripture about God doing nothing unless He reveals it by His prophets. So, I figure if it came out in my interpretation of tongues, in the tongues and interpretation of tongues of others, and as Words of Wisdom from others, then for whatever reason God would be particularly behind this particular election. Literally, though, they came out of the wood work over the last 18 months to 3 years saying "who" or describing him in completely unmistakable terms. I'm waiting on who's going to be the first rascal to say that just because they were right about who'd be President, therefore they're authorities on December 21st, 2012.
He will transfuse change to the States as well as the world outside of America. He made a cordially liberal statement in his acceptance speech. Good job, Mr President.
Thanks Martin. I've posted twice regarding his reported statements of wishing to remove all limits on abortion, as well as the likelihood that he'll appoint 2 abortion-friendly judges during his term. No response to this from anyone. So if he's a good thing (and maybe he is, I don't know), where does this fit in with his "goodness"? Scripture speaks against shedding innocent blood, and history indicates the society that murders its children is doomed to failure. I realize this isn't the only issue, he's not the only one that's abortion-friendly, much innocent blood is shed in many ways, etc., so I'm not blindly viewing this....just curious and concerned about the apparent extremely pro-abortion issue. Martin, specifically, maybe you've heard a word on how God will work this out? Because on the surface, IMO, it sure doesn't look good wrt this issue. Thoughts? James.
Quote from: martincisneros on November 10, 2008, 01:57:58 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2008, 01:25:58 AM
P.S. My dear brother Martin, to you directly.... could you please explain, given the above issues, how we can see this as a "positive" move of God? (I know God's in control, etc., but my take would be more along the lines of judgment, not something for us to be ecstatic about...my :2c:). God's blessing, James.
All I'll say is that I've known for close to 3 years who was going to get elected in '08. A lot of prophetic voices were saying who the next President would be since about '05 and '06. I'm sure some of those folks are updating their websites with their version of "told ya! and you can relive it with the DVD of that meeting for your tax deductible donation of $25!" I'm just waiting to see everybody and their dog with that on their webpage over this one. :laughing7: And it'll be for real 99% of the time 'cause I was either in the meetings, in contact with them, or watching it on TBN, Church Channel, DayStar, or wherever. I'll send you some links if they do 'cause there were a lot of folks on TBN and all over the place getting a Word about this. The ol' "prophesy in part" probably still applies as far as just because somebody knew who'd get elected, that doesn't mean they've already been a fly on the wall about all that'll happen. There's a Scripture about God doing nothing unless He reveals it by His prophets. So, I figure if it came out in my interpretation of tongues, in the tongues and interpretation of tongues of others, and as Words of Wisdom from others, then for whatever reason God would be particularly behind this particular election. Literally, though, they came out of the wood work over the last 18 months to 3 years saying "who" or describing him in completely unmistakable terms. I'm waiting on who's going to be the first rascal to say that just because they were right about who'd be President, therefore they're authorities on December 21st, 2012.
They said what in 2005? Obama would be the next president? Nobody even knew who he was in 2005.
That said, it would have been an easy guess in the last year, as he rose to stardom quickly, just like the Beatles.
Or was there a more general prophecy?
Quote from: jabcat on November 10, 2008, 08:17:55 PM
Thanks Martin. I've posted twice regarding his reported statements of wishing to remove all limits on abortion, as well as the likelihood that he'll appoint 2 abortion-friendly judges during his term. No response to this from anyone. So if he's a good thing (and maybe he is, I don't know), where does this fit in with his "goodness"? Scripture speaks against shedding innocent blood, and history indicates the society that murders its children is doomed to failure. I realize this isn't the only issue, he's not the only one that's abortion-friendly, much innocent blood is shed in many ways, etc., so I'm not blindly viewing this....just curious and concerned about the apparent extremely pro-abortion issue. Martin, specifically, maybe you've heard a word on how God will work this out? Because on the surface, IMO, it sure doesn't look good wrt this issue. Thoughts? James.
One of the things that I'm not liking is that the news media is saying that Obama is pro- stem cell research. Anyone with half a brain is pro- stem cell research. The news media seems like they're still not up to speed on the differences between adult stem cell research, embryonic stem cell research, and the differences between embryonic stem cell research such as the difference between using aborted fetuses or simply using umbilical chord blood or getting the stem cells from infants in other ways since they very likely run a lot of tests at hospitals on newborns anyway. The tiniest prick of the inside of the nose that wouldn't draw more than one or two drops of blood from the baby would likely water the eyes and get a cry over the watery eyes and funky feeling from anybody messing with your nose, but it would also give them thousands of embryonic stem cells. And there's a lot of other ways of getting the stem cells and not just through the nose. Legislation for embryonic stem cell research doesn't necessitate a free for all on abortions, which by the way we've already had in case anybody hasn't noticed. All of the big cures that have happened thus far have been with adult stem cells.
The abortion issue is once and for all resolved with a constitutional amendment, but Christians have lacked the genuine interest in pursuing it. So, there's an enormous amount of hypocrisy among Christians on the abortion issue. The Supreme Court renders it's opinions and they're only opinions. A constitutional amendment would shut them down on that issue.
One of the things that's been emerging has been a consensus among a number of prophetic voices that there would be a generation on earth that was cancer free. So, either mainstream doctors will stop fighting against God's methods and aloe, selenium, mangosteen, and graviola will come into greater usage, along with anything else that God would bring to light, or we're going to have healthier food and safer technology that's not moment by moment chipping away at people's health. But we can't totally discount the possible stem cell research connection on this. The life of the flesh is in the blood.
Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2008, 08:36:54 PM
They said what in 2005? Obama would be the next president? Nobody even knew who he was in 2005.
The Holy Spirit knew who Barack was. :Sparkletooth: And yes, the details were there.
But as Jesus told Nathanael....I'm not discounting the possibility of judgment out of all of this, but everything's sorta already been in severe judgment with half of the companies in this country and in many others going bankrupt. Some are even dogmatically expecting or creating with their expectation and preaching "Daniel's 70th week." It could get uglier still during this transition period that precedes the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that begins the millenium. I've heard that some countries have a religious mark that's similar to the dot on the head worn by people in India, but where among the Muslims that have something similar, you're not able to buy, sell, or hold a job without that. I don't know how serious to take the reports I've heard over the years of that going on, and whether or not they actually take it that far. But if that were the case, then your most dogmatic literalists and futurists on the book of Revelation would have to allow that we're somewhere between the 9th and 13th chapters of the book of Revelation in the way that they'd understand it.
I'm more interested in what God's doing than in what the devil is doing or will allegedly do. That's one of the philosophical problems with premillenialism that it uniquely places one in the position of heralding the coming of AntiChrist instead of heralding the coming of Christ. Whether anyone would regard themselves as a premillenialist or not, if there's any tendency with anyone to go all chicken little with "the devil is coming, the devil is coming! The devil is coming!!!!" I'd sincerely ask people like that to re-evaluate whose side they're on! God has a whole lot more going on and He's doing a whole lot more, including a whole lot more exciting things, and in the end, He's all in all. Conservative radio commentators, even if they don't have the book of Revelation in front of them, they wind up "going there" most of the time with how bad things are supposedly going to get. To me, that's rapidly becoming the definition of "Conservatism" to where I'm almost ready to wear the label of a liberal, with due reverence to Christ, if it's between genuine Gospel optimism and that religious "it's all going to Hell" nonsense that's not remotely in tune with what I'm hearing from the Holy Spirit. 2Corinthians 9 speaks of liberality and not all of this other stuff about God needing the world to suffer because the sufferings of Christ weren't sufficient to satisfy some Karmic blood lust at work in the universe, in the curse that's already been taken away, etc.
QuoteThe Holy Spirit knew who Barack was. And yes, the details were there. But as Jesus told Nathanael....
Can you give me some evidence of this? websites?
So far I haven't seen anything I'm impressed with except a cult following. He tried his best with the 'Yes we can' mantra but it kind of flopped at the victory speech. Yes we can--what? And do we even want to?
At a local middle school, two 8th graders played Mccain and Obama and gave speeches to the class right before the election. When 'Obama' walked out on stage the crowd of middle schoolers went wild. Just like Pavlov's dog, you no longer need the meat, just the bell.
Woof!
Religion and politics, the two most volitile subjects to discuss between family and friends. And yet, we boldly encounter both on these forums. Sometimes I wonder just what really takes place with the prayers of the saints when it's an "either/or" outcome.
Being an Iowa resident, I am also a fan of the IOWA Hawkeyes. Not a very good one, if they're having a losing season . .I'm not really that interested. But this season they did rather well and are currently trying to figure out which bowl game they're going to be invited to attend.
A couple weeks ago, they played Penn State which was ranked #3 in the nation. I never got to watch the game, I really didn't think they had a prayer, but was greatly amused to hear they actually won it.
Now, I'm sure there were Christians in the stands that day who were fans of both teams. One side prayed for Penn State and they other prayed for Iowa . . .the outcome apparently must mean that Iowa is closer to God that Penn State?
Taking a quantum leap back in time, there was a search going out for the next king for Israel. The prophet Samuel was given the responsibility to search out this guy with God's leading. He goes to the house of Jesse and has all of Jesse's sons standing in front of him and he quickly sees the person of highest potential
1 Samuel 16
6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, "Surely the LORD's anointed stands here before the LORD."
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
We assume a man is chosen by his speeches and history of what decisions he's made on the issues we feel most important. We have our own criteria of what someone should or shouldn't be to be our leader and by our own natural reasoning, we pray for or against the candidates, all the while, we believe we're doing God's work.
Eliab was the eldest son of Jesse, he was also the one that jumped David when he came down to bring food to his brothers while Goliath was on his little rampage. He had all the qualifications that one would assume was needed to be king of Israel. Even Samuel, the highest ranking prophet figured he was the guy. But the guy God had chosen wasn't even among those who were in the running.
Wouldn't it be cool if this kind of thing was presented at the beginning of the election process? It's not what the candidate thinks they have in them that God looks at . . .Then why would we? Obama's claim to fame was that change was coming . . . frankly, that comes with every president. I've yet to hear any president state that things are perfect the way they are and we're leaving everything just as it is.
I originally wasn't interested at all this year once it was clear who the top candidates were . . I didn't like either one of them either. And when Palin came on the scene . . .I could see how that "could" be God selecting another David . . and for all we know, this could very well still be that . .just not for this time around.
I'm not really interested in what they did or claim they will do. Because until they actually get into the oval office, they don't really have a clue what it's like to run an entire nation. Palin seemed to be a breath of fresh air . .not because she was a weathered politician with great experience. But instead, she was just the opposite . .she'd spent her years out in the back forty in another world almost, watching over the flock that was appointed to her and she'd killed a bear or two in her watch as well.
I'm not so sure we've seen the end of her . .but at the same time, righteousness cannot be legislated by government of men anyway. It was an interesting couple of weeks, I'm not all that thrilled about the outcome, but if God can use a donkey to speak to a stubborn, self-profiting prophet like Balaam, he can use anybody for his purposes, so we'll just have to see how things turn out.
It doesn't hurt to continue to pray for this nation regardless . . .yes?
Hi Nathan,
I should post my facebook notes on prayer here as it addresses that very issue.
In short my notes are a basic but not direct refutation to the traditional teaching of prayer. Typically it can be believed (but not by everyone of course) that if we pray and "believe enough" or "please god enough" then we will be able to steer the outcome of something by moving God to act on our behalf.
Basically if we have two sides praying for opposite things, then in our hearts we have to hope that those who pray for the opposite outcome believe "less" than we do.
There is no way that can be glorifying to God. In short, scripture tells us to pray according to the will of God. It tells us that because it also says that we basically do not know what we ought to pray for in the first place.
Facebook is blocked here at work, or I would already have posted them, I will post them later this evening.
Even though I didn't vote for him (and there are various troublesome issues), I had actually (s/w grudgingly) started to have some favorable feelings about our new President...I also realize we're to have respect for those God has placed in authority. However, today I'm actually feeling a little sick to my stomach...please read on...
"Today President Obama signed an executive order that will force tax-payers to pay for abortions. Here's how ABC News is reporting it:
"President Obama signed an executive order today reversing the ban that prohibits funding to international family planning groups that provide abortions . . ."
At the debate last year at Rick Warren's church (and elsewhere), Obama promised to support measures to reduce abortions. He's been in office for four days, and his first action vis a vis abortion ensures that abortions will increase worldwide. What's worse, he is making American taxpayers foot the bill for infanticide abroad.
Any "pro-life" person who is still willing to defend this president as a friend of the pro-life cause is delusional." dennyburk.com
Does anyone have any thoughts about the conflict on the spiritual and/or morality issue of paying tax money for this? I know we're to "render to Caesar what is Caesar's"...but is there any limit to this, and any options besides moving out of the country or going to jail? I guess in the U.S. we already have been paying for abortions, but this to me just brings it more to the forefront as it apparently broadens the likelihood of infanticide. Taxes bother me anyway, the way that much of it is wasted, thrown into a black hole somewhere...and now this...not too happy about taxes today...
Quote from: jabcat on January 24, 2009, 01:29:55 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts about the conflict on the spiritual and/or morality issue of paying tax money for this? I know we're to "render to Caesar what is Caesar's"...but is there any limit to this,
Life is not Ceasars. Life is Gods.
Quoteand any options besides moving out of the country or going to jail? I guess in the U.S. we already have been paying for abortions, but this to me just brings it more to the forefront as it apparently broadens the likelihood of infanticide. Taxes bother me anyway, the way that much of it is wasted, thrown into a black hole somewhere
I'm not from the US so I don't know its exact laws but my guess is that you can't wriggle out of taxes.
There are also strong pro life people in the Netherlands that didn't want to pay for the military. After long procedures they indeed don't have to pay the defence part of the taxes. Instead they pay a little extra for, say, healthcare.
But do you really think the defence budget dropped $200 and the healthcare rose $200?
QuoteAt the debate last year at Rick Warren's church (and elsewhere), Obama promised to support measures to reduce abortions.
That's an easy one to wriggle out. Improving life standard and education usally reduces abortions. So my guess is his answer will be in that direction.
BTW what's your defenition of abortion? 1 month, 1 week, 1 hour, 1 second?
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 24, 2009, 09:06:05 AM
Life is not Ceasars. Life is Gods.
Can you expound upon this? I've typically seen this scripture as meaning (generally) "obey your government (authority), give it respect"... :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 24, 2009, 09:06:05 AM
After long procedures they indeed don't have to pay the defence part of the taxes. Instead they pay a little extra for, say, healthcare.
Interesting...maybe there's some hope if enough people had enough nerve to challenge it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 24, 2009, 09:06:05 AM
BTW what's your defenition of abortion? 1 month, 1 week, 1 hour, 1 second?
Yes.
Some took issue with this statement in his inaugural address:
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers."
But, this remark made during his campaign seems much more ominous to me:
'We are no longer a Christian nation, if we ever were. We are a Jewish, Hindu and non-believing nation.'"
[reported in aol news]
When did we become a Jewish, Hindu, and non-believing nation? I must have missed that.
It makes one wonder if the 'flub' was really a flub or an intentional gaff to allow for a retaking of the oath, memorialized in pictures, of him taking the oath without his hand on the Bible. I mean really, two well paid men in very high positions, could not get one sentence right?
Taxes on the air you breathe under the bogus global warming is coming next.
I've s/w held back Molly. But what I really think is, there's a lot of blindness operating over the past year or so...people who otherwise seem to have pretty good sense unable to see into the things such as you mention...I truly think God is blinding/veiling much of our nation...including many believers....not sure if it's judgment (as in giving us what we want, as Israel wanted a King), and/or hopefully He'll bring something good out of it (perhaps following judgment)...or just something He's going to fix for us...guess I've got to really believe that whatever it is He will bring good out the other side, but the concern is, what will judgment/this period be like?
"If My people...humble themselves...turn from their wicked ways...I will hear from Heaven and heal their land"...
Quote from: jabcat on January 24, 2009, 09:14:32 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 24, 2009, 09:06:05 AM
Life is not Ceasars. Life is Gods.
Can you expound upon this? I've typically seen this scripture as meaning (generally) "obey your government (authority), give it respect"... :dontknow:
Let me explain how I read that with a question:
a] Gods law: Abortion is sin.
b] Obamas law: Every woman should have at least 1 abortion in her life.
What is the higher law? A or B? Surely your answer is A.
Basicly I read "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" as follows.
Ceasar get's all he wants unless Ceasars demands clash with those of God.
In this case the abortion law of Ceasar Obama clashes with the abortion law of Ceasar God.
Ceasars jurisdiction is only valid in what he owns. The territory he owns.
But not Ceasar but God owns our lifes.
Quote from: jabcat on January 24, 2009, 09:14:32 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 24, 2009, 09:06:05 AM
BTW what's your defenition of abortion? 1 month, 1 week, 1 hour, 1 second?
Yes.
I guess you mean even a second is abortion.
Then according to some articles (I can find right now) millons of abortions take place in the USA on daily basis.
The articles are against my understanding of things; but then I'm not an MD...
Basicly the article states that anticonception pills don't prevent life but kill it
very shortly after it started.
But that kinda off-topic in this thread.
To me WW, the question isn't as much of "time", but "has God already begun creating life"...IMO, that occurs within the first split-second...I'm not against contraception, preventing...but once it's begun, I just can't see how it's OK to end it. Maybe I don't have the complete understanding here, but that's pretty clearly what I see right now.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 24, 2009, 10:09:53 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 24, 2009, 09:14:32 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 24, 2009, 09:06:05 AM
Life is not Ceasars. Life is Gods.
Can you expound upon this? I've typically seen this scripture as meaning (generally) "obey your government (authority), give it respect"... :dontknow:
Let me explain how I read that with a question:
a] Gods law: Abortion is sin.
b] Obamas law: Every woman should have at least 1 abortion in her life.
What is the higher law? A or B? Surely your answer is A.
Basicly I read "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" as follows.
Ceasar get's all he wants unless Ceasars demands clash with those of God.
In this case the abortion law of Ceasar Obama clashes with the abortion law of Ceasar God.
Ceasars jurisdiction is only valid in what he owns. The territory he owns.
But not Ceasar but God owns our lifes.
OK, I like that reasoning, and I hope you're right...I'll be thinking about it some more, and maybe others can share their insight as well...thanks :thumbsup:
Oh, I saw a really good one the other day. It said "when you rob Peter to pay Paul, it's easy to get Paul's vote". :LH:
Quote from: jabcat on January 24, 2009, 10:27:22 AM
To me WW, the question isn't as much of "time", but "has God already begun creating life"...IMO, that occurs within the first split-second...I'm not against contraception, preventing...but once it's begun, I just can't see how it's OK to end it. Maybe I don't have the complete understanding here, but that's pretty clearly what I see right now.
Personally I don't share your view. But I do respect it. All I was trying to say that according to some (articles) some widely used contraception is usually thought to prevent life; but in reallity it kills life that's just a split-second old.
I hope I didn't spoil your :HeartThrob: fun :bgdance:
Nope, no spoiled fun...
I hear you what you're saying about the "contraception", and that may be right, I don't know.
I want to add a disclaimer to my part of this discussion...I'm not talking about judging/condemning individuals. I'm talking about a mindset, a national mindset, government policies and using public (my) tax money to fund what I consider grave sin that will eventually if not sooner, carry a verdict of national judgment.
We have all sinned...I don't believe in lying, but I've done it. I don't believe in stealing, but I've done it...etc. Confessed, and mercifully forgiven. Thank you Father.
There's nothing I've gained
just count it as loss
My sin and my shame
constructed the cross
There's nothing in my strength
I could atone
It's all about Jesus
and His grace alone