Tentmaker Forum

^YLTGen 3
8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

Steps can only be heard if a solid foot touches the ground.

Maybe it was Jesus? God made flesh?

God is usually called God, Lord or Father.
But all the Eden verses it's always "Lord God", "Jehovah God" or "Yaweh God" (depending on the translation)
Dunno if that's a hint.

If it was Jesus were was He between that verse and when He was born 2000 years ago?
A closer look at "image" also seems to indicate solid form.

Well John says that He was with God in the beginning. But it's all speculation for me, I really have no idea! I am still trying to figure out the whole trinity issue...

4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud  and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.

--Ex 34


Jesus

Quote from: lomarah on March 24, 2011, 05:23:57 PM
Well John says that He was with God in the beginning. But it's all speculation for me, I really have no idea! I am still trying to figure out the whole trinity issue...

I think Trinity isn't relavant in this context. Jesus existed during creation. As a seperate person or part of trinity.
The question remains was the (non-)trinty God solid or not?

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 24, 2011, 05:40:23 PM

Quote from: lomarah on March 24, 2011, 05:23:57 PM
Well John says that He was with God in the beginning. But it's all speculation for me, I really have no idea! I am still trying to figure out the whole trinity issue...

I think Trinity isn't relavant in this context. Jesus existed during creation. As a seperate person or part of trinity.
The question remains was the (non-)trinty God solid or not?

One of them was.


9Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.

10And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

11And the LORD said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.

--1 Samuel 3



Then the LORD reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, "Now, I have put my words in your mouth.

--Jer 1:9



Jesus

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 05:26:48 PM
4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud  and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.

--Ex 34


Jesus

A sprit shape, energy shape, or whatever you want to call it can stand too.
Ok, I admit the verse learns a little towards solid. But for me the verse is to vague to base any conclusion on.

I think there wasn't any shape of God at all. The cloud stood still. Nobody saw God and lived.
Notice that Adam and Eve heard footsteps; I can't find any verse that states they saw or touched God.

It could be symbolic imagery or evidence that God does indeed have form.

The Jews were well aware of two Yahweh's--one visible, one invisible.

Abraham recognizes him.


1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

==Gen 18

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 24, 2011, 05:45:20 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 05:26:48 PM
4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud  and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.

--Ex 34


Jesus

A sprit shape, energy shape, or whatever you want to call it can stand too.
Ok, I admit the verse learns a little towards solid. But for me the verse is to vague to base any conclusion on.

I think there wasn't any shape of God at all. The cloud stood still. Nobody saw God and lived.
Notice that Adam and Eve heard footsteps; I can't find any verse that states they saw or touched God.

It says the LORD came down out of the cloud and walked back and forth in front of him.

The OT saints knew Jesus.

The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
--Ex 33

^YLTExod 33
20 He saith also, `Thou art unable to see My face, for man doth not see Me, and live;'

 6Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

--Psa 45


Jesus

Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

I like to think that God, being an infinite being of infinite power unbound by 3 dimensions - is able to exist in a simultaneous state of self expressed in omnipresence, and self expressed in a coalesced-solid expression of being, finite in image (being expressed in our 3d spectrum, as one who is part of our 3dimensional universe) but profoundly infinite in his extra-dimensional presence.

In summary, God can exist simultaneously in 3d space, as well as the rest of the dimensions and beyond. 

Christ is of course, able to be expressed in a solid form.  He seems to be the usual pattern of God expressing himself in Creation, or on it; Angel of the Lord, Burning Bush, Son of Man on the cherubim, etc.  While the Father does tend to remain "numinous", but I do not think that he is somehow stuck that way.  Of course, Christ is also I believe, capable of omnipresence.  He sits at the right hand of The Father - and the Father's right hand is everywhere.

The Holy Spirit can express himself in a solid or visible form.  The Dove.  So I see no reason the Father shouldn't be able to either.

Of course, my view of God and his nature (trinitarily speaking, not for debate but rather for clarification of my own theology) is thus;

"God within God within God"  Almost as this inter-folded being who takes the whole fullness of himself and expresses that fullness (in various ways) simultaneously in co-existent, and co-interactive, co-eternal ways.

So, I do believe that God in any form can express himself as a solid entity, while maintaining his omnipresence extra-dimensionally, and there is always the fact that there is ever that infinite numinous expression who is ever omnipresent, even if he expressed himself 3dimensionally simultaneously to the rest of his expression in the other dimensions.  :2c:

This is a fascinating discussion, I wish I had adequate words to describe a theological-theory I have about it, this "God within God within God" idea.  :icon_king:

Molly I have no clue what you mean with #13 and #14

#13 and #14  is talking about Jesus.  He is called God.  His throne is forever, the sceptor of his kingdom is righteous, he loves justice, he has been anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows,
he is sitting at the right hand of the throne of God, his enemies are his footstool, he is the ruler, he is priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.  He is both king and priest.

David knew Jesus and calls him "my Lord," the familiar name of God, "Adonai."

Quote from: LefeinThis is a fascinating discussion, I wish I had adequate words to describe a theological-theory I have about it, this "God within God within God" idea.

Ice, water, steam--there is a difference, but what is it?

1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3 And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

--Gen 18


The "LORD" appeared to Abraham
H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.


He sees three men.

He goes and bows and addresses 'My LORD' in the familiar form because he recognizes him.  Later, two of the men leave for Sodom, but YHWH stays behind and talks to Abraham.

3And said, "My LORD", if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not

H136
אדני
'ădônây
ad-o-noy'
An emphatic form of H113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only): - (my) Lord.

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 08:58:37 PM

Quote from: LefeinThis is a fascinating discussion, I wish I had adequate words to describe a theological-theory I have about it, this "God within God within God" idea.

Ice, water, steam--there is a difference, but what is it?

Kitchen princess: A recipe for for boiling water http://www.online-cookbook.com/  :OhNo:

They have different names for Jesus in the OT.  Sometimes they call him 'the word of the LORD.'

Jeremiah says the word of the LORD came to him, talked to him, put out his hand and touched his mouth, showed him things.

Jeremiah is talking about a person.


The ancient Hebrews had no problem with the different manifestations of the One God.  They knew ice, water, steam are different manifestations of the same thing.

There is only so much glory that God can occupy a space in earth or heaven. I believe that God occupies spaces at different levels of glory, where in heaven is most of his glory, his throne being the very center of his glory and hell/ spiritual death condition being the furthest place from his glory.

Some place on earth he dwells greater glory, because holy angels have been there, and they carry the rub off effects presence of Gods glory from the heavens.

I also think Jesus carries, his resurected very powerful glory, which blinds people, such as saul.

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 09:39:04 PMThe ancient Hebrews had no problem with the different manifestations of the One God.  They knew ice, water, steam are different manifestations of the same thing.

Was God ice when He walked in the Garden of Eden?

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 24, 2011, 10:22:03 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 09:39:04 PMThe ancient Hebrews had no problem with the different manifestations of the One God.  They knew ice, water, steam are different manifestations of the same thing.

Was God ice when He walked in the Garden of Eden?

I think Eden was a special case because it is a spiritual place to begin with and Adam and Eve,  although human, were allowed to be in this place inhabited by God, but also by other spiritual beings, such as the Nachash.  I also think that Adam and Eve at that time had spiritual abilities and powers of discernment that man lost when he experienced the fall.   Remember, Adam was originally given dominion over the earth. His rightful habitation was eden.

I'll be a bit moe definitive . . Yes God is solid . ..no he's not . . . .there.  He is all in all . . .first and last . . .visible and invisible . . .crazy topic . . .
Jesus is that SPIRIT and where the Spirit of of the Lord is, there is liberty . . .is liberty visible or invisible?  Is is solid??  Is it vapor?  Define liberty, you'll find God at it's core.

Quote from: Nathan on March 25, 2011, 08:21:04 AM
.crazy topic . . .

You'll notice for once that I haven't as yet joined in.  Give me time...   :laugh:

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 05:50:39 PM
The Jews were well aware of two Yahweh's--one visible, one invisible.

They didn't believe in two Gods.
Early Roman church taught binity instead of trinity; I wonder if that's related.
Anyway I never saw any hint that ancient (or modern) Jews believes in two Gods.
Perhaps they believed in God in steam and ice form as you call it. But that's the same God.
Remember why exactly it was blasphemy that Jesus said He was the son of God. It wasn't really the son part of it. It was because it implies He was also a God. By lack of a better word; God is a species. Offspring is always of the same species. So Jesus declared Himself God. And that was totally impossible because they firmly believe(d) that there is just one God.
I wonder how Jews view the seemingly conficting verses. Christians can use trinity or two persons to explain away the problem.
But how would Jews do it?

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 11:18:14 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 24, 2011, 10:22:03 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 09:39:04 PMThe ancient Hebrews had no problem with the different manifestations of the One God.  They knew ice, water, steam are different manifestations of the same thing.

Was God ice when He walked in the Garden of Eden?

I think Eden was a special case because it is a spiritual place to begin with and Adam and Eve,  although human, were allowed to be in this place inhabited by God, but also by other spiritual beings, such as the Nachash.  I also think that Adam and Eve at that time had spiritual abilities and powers of discernment that man lost when he experienced the fall.   Remember, Adam was originally given dominion over the earth. His rightful habitation was eden.

The meaning of garden comes closest to farm land. Adam and Eve did work for food. The land outside the garden was also good farmland. God cursed the earth and then thorns and weed began to grow. If that was already the case outside Eden no curse was needed at all. So whole earth was a bit Eden like. That would mean everyone/thing lived in the spiritual place.
Note that Adam and Eve lived in the Holy of Holies and just were kicked out to the holies.

So, I don't think calling Eden a spiritual place is the answer to this topic.

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 25, 2011, 09:00:48 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 05:50:39 PM
The Jews were well aware of two Yahweh's--one visible, one invisible.

They didn't believe in two Gods.
Early Roman church taught binity instead of trinity; I wonder if that's related.
Anyway I never saw any hint that ancient (or modern) Jews believes in two Gods.
Perhaps they believed in God in steam and ice form as you call it. But that's the same God.
Remember why exactly it was blasphemy that Jesus said He was the son of God. It wasn't really the son part of it. It was because it implies He was also a God. By lack of a better word; God is a species. Offspring is always of the same species. So Jesus declared Himself God. And that was totally impossible because they firmly believe(d) that there is just one God.
I wonder how Jews view the seemingly conficting verses. Christians can use trinity or two persons to explain away the problem.
But how would Jews do it?

I was searching around for something to explain this better and found this article.  It references the Targum which indicates how the Jews were to understand these passages in the Bible.
What is it lawyers state about hearsay?  I don't offer this for the truthfulness but for the state of mind.



Author: Rabbi Michael 'Mordechai' Silver
The following was sent to the mailing list of a Messianic believer. It is very interseting because here, from someone who understands the language of the Old Testament we see that the Word is clearly called YHWH (Jehovah).

___________________________________________

This should help to clarify some confusion in the area of understanding the SHEMA when it says that YHVH is Echad. In the scriptures, "God the Father" is given the title of YHVH. Also, the WORD of YHVH (the Messiah) is also given the title of YHVH. How / Why? Because they are echad (a compound unity) and not Yachid (exclusively singular of each other). So, in scripture we sometimes see multiple YHVH's in the text. Below are some examples.

                                  **********************************************************

The Targums were authoritative Aramaic paraphrases of the books of the Tenach which were read in the synagogues along with the Hebrew of the Torah and Haftorah readings. Often when the Targums come to passages where YHWH is anthropomorphisised or seen, or where two or more YHWHs are indicated by the text, the Targums will substitute "The Word [Memra] of YHWH" for YHWH. For further understanding on the Targums see here.

For example in Gen. 19:24 the Tenach has:

And YHVH rained brimstone and fire upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah, from YHVH, from the heavens.
(Original Bible Project preliminary edition)

The Hebrew grammar here indicates that one YHWH rains fire from another YHWH. But Targum Jonathan substitutes "The Word of YHWH/the L-RD" for the first of the two YHWHs as follows:

And the Word of the YHWH caused to descend upon the peoples of Sodom and Gommorah, brimstone and fire from the YHWH in heaven.

In another example the Torah has:

Ex. 24:1a (YHWH is the speaker, see Ex. 20:1-2) "Now He [YHWH] said to Moses, "come up to YHWH..."

But Targum Jonathan paraphrases the speaker in Ex. 20:1 with the substitution "the Word [Memra] of YHWH" in place of "YHWH."

And the Word of the Lord spoke all these glorious words...

So it would seem that one of these entities called "YHWH" in these Torah passages was actually understood by the Targumists as being the "Word of YHWH." It was, according to Targum Onkelos, this Word of YHWH that Abraham trusted in:

And Abraham trusted in the Word [Memra] of YHWH, and He counted it to him for righteousness. (Targum Onkelos Gen. 15:6)

Moreover Abraham prayed in the name of the Word of YHWH:

And Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word [Memra] of YHWH, and said, "You are YHWH who does see, but You cannot be seen." (Jerusalem Targum Gen. 22:14)

Note that here Abraham prays "in the name of the Word of YHWH" to the YHWH who "cannot be seen." Here two YHWHs are very apparent. Abraham is praying in the name of the Word of YHWH but is praying to the YHWH who cannot be seen. This idea is reinforced elsewhere as follows:

And Hagar praised and prayed in the name of the Word [Memra] Of YHWH who had revealed Himself to her (Jerusalem Targum Gen. 16:3)

It was this Word of YHWH that Jacob also trusted in:

And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, "If the Word [Memra] of YHWH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Word [Memra] of YHWH be my Elohim." (Targum Onkelos on Gen. 28:20-21)

King David also urged Israel to trust in the Word of Yah as the Targum of Psalm 62 reads:

"Trust in the Word of Yah at all times, O people of the house of Israel! Pour out before Him the sighings of your heart; Say, Elohim is our trust forever." (Targum on Psalm 62:9)

This "Word of YHWH" was, according to Targum Jonathan, the Creator:

"And the Word [Memra] of YHWH created man in his likeness, in the likeness of YHWH, YHWH created, male and female created He them." (Targ. Jonathan Gen. 1:27)

This idea is also put forward in the Jerusalem Targum:

'And the Word [Memra] of YHWH said to Moses: "I am He who said unto the world 'Be!' and it was: and who in the future shall say to it 'Be!' and it shall be." And He said: "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'I Am' has sent me to you."' (Jerusalem Targum Ex. 3:14)

The Fragmentary Targum of the Torah also expresses that the Word of YHWH was the Creator:

'The first night, when the "Word of YHWH" was revealed to the world in order to create it, the world was desolate and void,and darkness spread over the face of the abyss and the "Word of the Lord" was bright and illuminating and He called it the first night.' (Fragmentary Targum Ex. 12:42)

That the Word of YHWH was the Creator can also be seen in the Tenach itself:

"By the Word of YHWH were the heavens made, And all the hosts of them by the Spirit of His mouth." (Ps. 33:6)

The Word was also the covenant maker. For example the Noachdic covenant was between the Word and all mankind:

'And YHWH said to Noah, "This is the token of the covenant which I have established between My Word [Memra] and between all flesh that is upon the earth.' (Targum Onkelos Gen. 9:17)

The Word also made the Abrahamic covenant as Targum Onkelos also paraphrases:

"And I will establish my covenant between My Word [Memra] and between you." (Targum Onkelos Gen. 17:7)

The Word of YHWH was also the giver of the Mosaic Covenant and the Torah as the Jerusalem Targum (as quoted above) makes the Torah giver "the Word of YHWH" in Ex. 20:1. It was to the Word that Jacob turned to for salvation:

'Our father Jacob said: "My soul does not wait for salvation such as that wrought by Gideon, the son of Joash, for that was but temporal; neither for a salvation like that of Samson, which was only transitory; but for that salvation which You have promised to come, through Your Word unto Your people, the children of Israel; for your salvation my soul hopes."' (Targum Jonathan Gen. 49:18)

That the Word of YHWH is the savior is expressed elsewhere:

"But Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHWH with an everlasting salvation. By the Word of YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified." (Targum Jonathan Is. 45:17, 25)

"But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Word of YHWH, their Elohim." (Targum Jonathan Hosea 1:7)

Speaking of the Memra Gershom Scholem states:

...the memra-- the paraphrase used in the Targumim, the Aramaic Bible translations, to refer to God's word. The memra is not merely a linguistic device for overcoming the problem of biblical anthropomorphisms; it has theological significance in its own right. The memra....is.... a world-permeating force, a reality in the world of matter or mind, the emmanent aspect of Elohim, holding all things under its ominpresent sway. On the Mystical Shape of the Godhead: Basic Concepts in the Kabbalah, by Gershom Scholem pg 181-182.

All of this sheds much light on Yochanan 1:1 (John 1:1):

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim."

http://www.reachouttrust.org/articlePDFView.php?id=119

PS  I just want to say that it is very exciting to me to be able to voice that Jesus is all over the Old Testament.  It is something I have known for a long time [shown to me by the HS] but I never get a chance to share it, and particularly because no one knows what I am talking about when I try.

So I hope others will start to enjoy this also and begin to understand the glory of our our Lord, Yahshua Ha Mashiach, Jesus the Christ.

Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2011, 10:30:23 AM
PS  I just want to say that it is very exciting to me to be able to voice that Jesus is all over the Old Testament.  It is something I have known for a long time [shown to me by the HS] but I never get a chance to share it, and particularly because no one knows what I am talking about when I try.

So I hope others will start to enjoy this also and begin to understand the glory of our our Lord, Yehshua Ha Mashiach, Jesus the Christ.

Been getting a little glimpse of that recently Molly.   :Yesss:

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, ...
--Rev 22


If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"

--Mat 22:45


17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
--Rev 22

21And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
--1 Sam 3


"Shiloh"

H7887
שׁלו    שׁילו    שׁלה    שׁילה
shı̂ylôh  shilôh  shı̂ylô  shilô
(1,2,3 & 4) shee-lo'
From the same as H7886; Shiloh, a place in Palestine: - Shiloh.


H7886
שׁילה
shı̂ylôh
shee-lo'
From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh.


These people were seeing and talking to Jesus.  :Sparkletooth:

#29 is interesting it sorta confirms my thought expressed in http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/john_335_or_is_it_really_god_many_verses_are_9489.0.html

Gonna try to find more on the 2 YHWHs

Psalm 8:4
What is man [enosh], that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man [adam], that thou visitest him?

"thou visitest" him

H6485
פּקד
pâqad
paw-kad'
A primitive root; to visit (with friendly or hostile intent); by analogy to oversee, muster, charge, care for, miss, deposit, etc.: - appoint, X at all, avenge, bestow, (appoint to have the, give a) charge, commit, count, deliver to keep, be empty, enjoin, go see, hurt, do judgment, lack, lay up look, make X by any means, miss, number, officer, (make) overseer have (the) oversight, punish, reckon, (call to) remember (-brance), set (over), sum, X surely, visit, want.


1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

--Heb 2

Molly,

From your friend Michael  :winkgrin:
All 2601 verses with plural Elohim (http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/PDFs/elohim%20occurrences%20hebrew.pdf)
Plural (http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/PDFs/elohim%20as%20subject%20of%20plural%20finite%20verb%20results.pdf)

More info and vids here (http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/Elohim/Elohim.htm)

---

Old Testament scholar Michael Heiser discussed the Biblical evidence for this in the fascinating video below. He argues against the rabbinic view that Yahweh appears in two modes, a younger one and an older one. He sees the evidence as supporting a Christological interpretation that the second Yahweh refers to Jesus. This, he claims, is why the early church could see no discrepancy in claiming Jesus was part of the Godhead. But there is a third interpretation. These people were polytheistic to the core for much of their history, my view. See what you think:  http://vimeo.com/8792424 (http://vimeo.com/8792424)

---

http://www.byt-yhwh.org/yahwehisone.html

---

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/YHWH.html

25And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

26And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

--Eze 1



1And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.

2And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

3And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

4For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.

--Eze 2



Jesus

John 1:18 (English Standard Version)
18(A) No one has ever seen God;(B) the only God,[a] who is at the Father's side,(b)(C) he has made him known.


Footnotes:
a.John 1:18 Or the only One, who is God; some manuscripts the only Son
b.John 1:18 Greek in the bosom of the Father

Quote from: wwThese people were polytheistic to the core for much of their history, my view.

No they weren't polytheistic.  They knew the other cultures around them were worshipping other gods [as they do today], they knew there were multiple spiritual beings in the heavens--look at some of the things Paul writes--they even worshipped these other gods themselves at times when they were in rebellion--look at the golden calf.  But, the theology of the Bible is clear and is monotheistic--they believed in and worshipped one God, creator of heaven and earth--YHWH--as do Christians today.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.—Deuteronomy 6:4

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.—Exodus 20:3

Memra

Despite the influence of Greek philosophy during the Second
Temple period, the Jewish writers ofthe New Testament
clearly relied primarily on early rabbinic methods of interpreta-
tion. An example can be seen in the theology of the New
Testament Logos, the Word. Early Jewish theologians had de-
veloped an ,entire philosophy around what they called Memra,
or the Word of God, to which they ascribed six particular at-
tributes. In John 1:1-18, we see these same six attributes
ascribed to the Logos. Notice how John associates these Memra
attributes with Jesus, the Messiah.

The first of these attributes of Memra was that it was some-
times distinct from and sometimes the same as God. Likewise,
John 1:1 says, "1n the beginning was the Word, and the Word
was with God, and the Word was God."

The second was that Memra was the agent of creation,
hence John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him."

The third was that Memra was the agent of salvation, hence
John 1:12 says, "But as many as received him, to them gave he
power to become the sons of God."

The fourth of these attributes of the Memra was that Memra
was the agent of Theophany. This attribute is seen in John 1:14,
which says, "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."
According to Dr. Jack Sternberg, "John is saying that in Jesus,
Who is the Word, and the Glory of God, in Him, we beheld the
Shekhinah Glory, as Jesus became the Agent of Theophany, the
visible presence of God, as was the Memra of the Old Testa-
ment."'

The fifth was that Memra was the agent of covenant sign-
ing, hence John 1:17 compares the covenant of grace and truth
through Christ to the covenants of Abraham and Moses.

The sixth was that Memra was the agent of revelation. This
attribute can be seen in John 1:18, which states that no man has
seen God at any time, but that it is the Son who declares, or
reveals, him. The writings of John confirm that his understand-
ing of Memra was 100 percent Hebraic. He affirms that Jesus
fulfills all six attributes and all Jewish expectations of Memra.

Judg 6:22-23 "And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. {23} And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die."



Isa 6:5 "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."



Jesus

Quote from: wwThe writings of John confirm that his understand-
ing of Memra was 100 percent Hebraic. He affirms that Jesus
fulfills all six attributes and all Jewish expectations of Memra.

I have to hand it to you, ww.  You are a quick study.  Are you sure you're not a messianic Jew? :Sparkletooth:


14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

--John 1

ww, those 6 aspects of the memra are the active principle of the Godhead that I was talking about in the other post, regarding the nature of Christ.

Its kind of like the Father is the energy source which then flows through the Son, the energy being the Fathers will. Thus "I have come to do the will of my Father"

Its kind of cool to see it laid out like that, especially coming from a pre-christian thought process.  A lot of times when I'm trying to verbalize the purpose/nature of Christ and Father, I come to those same categories of distinctness, and oneness, but unable to pinpoint all of it like that.  Great thread here

Molly keep up those great references of the Son/ The Word :happy3:

Genesis 15
1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 25, 2011, 09:00:48 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 05:50:39 PM
The Jews were well aware of two Yahweh's--one visible, one invisible.

They didn't believe in two Gods.
Early Roman church taught binity instead of trinity; I wonder if that's related.
Anyway I never saw any hint that ancient (or modern) Jews believes in two Gods.
Perhaps they believed in God in steam and ice form as you call it. But that's the same God.
Remember why exactly it was blasphemy that Jesus said He was the son of God. It wasn't really the son part of it. It was because it implies He was also a God. By lack of a better word; God is a species. Offspring is always of the same species. So Jesus declared Himself God. And that was totally impossible because they firmly believe(d) that there is just one God.
I wonder how Jews view the seemingly conficting verses. Christians can use trinity or two persons to explain away the problem.
But how would Jews do it?

Sure about the parts in bold?. Didn't the accusers say' because you being a man makest thyself God'.

Perhaps it was less about the issue that there is more than one God but rather, because he being a man says he's God. In some ways that is the very argument that people today have against Jesus.

Jesus said the scriptures testify of me, but you refuse to come to me to have life.

But it's an interesting question whitewings as to what did the Jews believe concerning the number of deity. Some were aware that the messiah was to come, so those in the know how, must have also read about there being a Son of God, or as the old testament calls Him the Lord or the God of Israel.
It would be interesting to find if there is a references to the different Gods, so far I have recognized that LORD all capitals is refering to the father, while Lord is the Son, but maybe not in All cases. Also recognize that the Father is called the Highest or the almighty in the old testament.



I have seen the Jews explanation of the conflicting verse, it can be very convincing. I've also seen a Muslim criticize and explain the verses that was even more convincing, but faith wins and scripture restored.

One of the first extra-Biblical places we see the idea of God having a son is in the Targums. The Targums were the Hebrew Scriptures loosely translated into Aramaic. Aramaic was the common language of the Jews both before and after Christ. Hebrew was the temple language. Most of the people did not speak Hebrew as a language of communication. And so in the synagogues the Scriptures would be read in Hebrew and then in Aramaic.

Take note on how Genesis 1:1 is translated in one of the Targums: "From the beginning with wisdom the Memra of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth." The Neofiti Targum actually has it this way; "From the beginning with wisdom the son of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth."

The term 'Memra' is the Aramaic word that translates into Greek as 'Logos.' So we see that the idea of a son and logos were not foreign to the Jews during the time of Christ. Memra is used extensively in the Targum translations. [There were a number of Targums. They contained the various modes of thinking of the peoples before and during the time of Christ.]

Here are some samplings from the Targums. Every time you see the term Memra, simply think Logos, or the Word, or think, 'Jesus' Himself.

Gen1:27 - "And the Memra of the Lord created the man in his own likeness; in a likeness from before the Lord he created him; male and his partner he created them."

Gen2:8 - "And the Lord God had planted a garden in Eden from the beginning and he placed there the first Adam." (Recall Paul spoke of the first and the last Adam.)

Gen3:8 - "And they heard the sound of the Memra of the Lord God walking within the garden in the breeze of the day..."

Gen12:7 - "And the Memra of the Lord was revealed to Abram and said to him: 'To your sons I will give this land.' ..."

Gen15:6 - "And Abram believed in the name of the Memra of the Lord and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

The one thing to keep in view is that the term Memra spoke of personality. It was the Jewish way of relating to the unseen God, in saying that the Most High God did all His personal communication and revelation through the one called 'the Memra.'

....

The early Jewish believers took what was commonly taught in Judaism of the day, and brought Jesus into the picture. This allows us to see how much of the ancient theology of the Jews was on course with the truth of Jesus Christ.

But you find these early Jewish concepts not only in the New Testament writings, but also in other writings of the early believers. Here are sampling from the Ante-Nicene writings:

[Epistle to Diognetus a.d. 130] "...God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, Him who is the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word..."

.....

http://www.christianchallenge.org/hebraic-foundations/HF139.html

1 Kings 17
1And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

2And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

3Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.

4And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.

5So he went and did according unto the word of the LORD: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.

6And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook

I understand that God can use solid forms, the first chapter of Genesis teaches that to me as does all the vary places where God communicates with His creation, so in that reasoning yes, but I must stand on the words of Jesus....

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."

And as I posted in another place....What is spirit? I believe that would be a better quest. I believe , but do not understand yet... that The Spirit of Gen. 1:2 is  subsatance, I believe that Jesus was that substance(and I do not mean His flesh body.)

I believe that should those have ears to hear, must and will HEAR, what the SPIRIT is saying.

Quote from: thinktank on March 26, 2011, 08:44:25 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 25, 2011, 09:00:48 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 24, 2011, 05:50:39 PM
The Jews were well aware of two Yahweh's--one visible, one invisible.

They didn't believe in two Gods.
Early Roman church taught binity instead of trinity; I wonder if that's related.
Anyway I never saw any hint that ancient (or modern) Jews believes in two Gods.
Perhaps they believed in God in steam and ice form as you call it. But that's the same God.
Remember why exactly it was blasphemy that Jesus said He was the son of God. It wasn't really the son part of it. It was because it implies He was also a God. By lack of a better word; God is a species. Offspring is always of the same species. So Jesus declared Himself God. And that was totally impossible because they firmly believe(d) that there is just one God.
I wonder how Jews view the seemingly conficting verses. Christians can use trinity or two persons to explain away the problem.
But how would Jews do it?

Sure about the parts in bold?. Didn't the accusers say' because you being a man makest thyself God'.

Calling yourself son doesn't make you a god.
Calling yourself Son of God makes you a God. The offspring of a horse is a horse. The offspring of a human is a human. The offspring of  a God is a God.

QuotePerhaps it was less about the issue that there is more than one God but rather, because he being a man says he's God.

That's very hard to answer. Say you meet someone who claims to be the son of God (Jesus).
Would you call it blasphemy because you don't believe God has a son or because you don't believ that person is the son of God?

QuoteIt would be interesting to find if there is a references to the different Gods, so far I have recognized that LORD all capitals is refering to the father, while Lord is the Son, but maybe not in All cases. Also recognize that the Father is called the Highest or the almighty in the old testament.

I can't read Hebrew so I have no way of checking if the Hebrew text uses caps or not. I doubt ancient Hebrew has caps.

Quote from: Molly on March 26, 2011, 09:11:21 PM
One of the first extra-Biblical places we see the idea of God having a son is in the Targums. The Targums were the Hebrew Scriptures loosely translated into Aramaic. Aramaic was the common language of the Jews both before and after Christ.

That's disputed. It was 'commonly' accepted Hebrew was no longer used (by the public) during the time of Jesus. But that doesn't seem to be corrrect.

QuoteHebrew was the temple language. Most of the people did not speak Hebrew as a language of communication. And so in the synagogues the Scriptures would be read in Hebrew and then in Aramaic.

Jews spoke Hebrew among eachother and Aramaic to foreigners.

---

This is not to say that Aramaic was not spoken. The amount of evidence is irrefutable that Aramaic was one of the languages of his day. However, the historical and biblical evidence attests to the fact that he was speaking Hebrew. Again, this is important since to say otherwise does not accurately represent Jesus. Also, recognizing his language as Hebrew demonstrates the reliability of the Bible as the Word of God, and provides a continuum of teaching from the Old Testament up to and through the life and ministry of the Messiah.
........ the Dead Sea Scrolls contain more than 800 documents and fragments, most of which were in Hebrew, some in Aramaic and almost none in Greek.
......... Letters of correspondence between Bar Kochba (132-135AD) and his soldiers were discovered in 1951 near the Dead Sea. They are a significant finding since they were written in Hebrew as well as Aramaic and Greek. There are certain colloquialisms found in them leading to the conclusion that Hebrew was not a dead language nor was it a language reserved only for the synagogues.
......... Paul stood on the stairs and motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great silence, he spoke to them in the Hebrew languageActs 21:40). Again, the word Hebrew is the Greek word Hebraidi. The sign on the cross of Jesus was written in three languages, Hebrew ( Hebraisti), the language of the land, Latin, the language of Rome and her officials, and Greek, the international trade language (like English today).
..........

	Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani
Matthew 27:46		Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani
Psalm 22:1 Hebrew (original)		Eli eli lama azavtani
Psalm 22:1 Aramaic (Targum Psalms)		Eli elahi metul ma shabaktani
Syriac (Aramaic) Mark 15:34		Elahi elahi, lamna shabaktani
Syriac (Aramaic) Matthew 27:46		Eli eli, lamna shabaktani
Hebrew God		Elohim / Eloah / El
Aramaic God		Elah / El
Hebrew/Aramaic My God		Eli
Hebrew (only) My God		elohai
Aramaic (only) My God		Elahi
Septuagint Judges 5:5 my God		Eloi

Eloi
We have some interesting evidence in the New Testament given that the original words of Jesus have been recorded by two of his disciples – Matthew and Mark (according to early church tradition, Mark received his Gospel from the testimony of Peter). It is interesting to note that Matthew's version is slightly different from Mark's. Matthew records, in 27:46 that Jesus said Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (resembling Psalm 22:1 in Hebrew eli, eli lama azavtani) while Mark's account says Eloi Eloi. I believe that we can safely assume that Jesus did not say it one way for Matthew and another for the writer of Mark while on the cross. Matthew's version – Eli Eli is what we would expect in Hebrew or even in Aramaic. Eloi, however, is a mystery. Which way he said it has to do with the issue of transliteration and will be answered in the course of our search.
We know what Eloi means, due to the convenient translation in the text, that is my God. The question of course, is whether it is Hebrew or Aramaic. The truth is, as such, it is neither Hebrew nor Aramaic. While it is close to the Hebrew form of אלהים elohim, it falls short. Its form is not found even once in the Hebrew Bible and since elohim is such a common word, not finding it there forces us to conclude that it is not Hebrew. However, it is not Aramaic either. If Eloi were Aramaic, as is assumed, then why don't we see at least one example of its use in the OT since in both Daniel 4:5, and 6:22, which were plainly written in Aramaic, the words "my God" are not Eloi but אלהי elahi. The form spoken by Jesus as recorded in Mark is conspicuously absent! Furthermore, the Targumim translate my God as elahi just as the Aramaic does from the time of Daniel. Targum Psalm 22:1, has אלי  אלהי eli elahi (Targum Psalms). Moreover, the Syriac (Aramaic) version of the New Testament (written about 200 AD) actually translates the Greek text of Mark 15:34 (my God) ὁ Θεός μου (ho Theos mou) as elahi and not Eloi! Apparently the Aramaic speakers didn't consider it to be Aramaic either since they wrote
Elahi. Considering that this text was written after the time of Jesus just further serves to demonstrate that Eloi is not Aramaic.
If Eloi is neither Hebrew nor Aramaic, then what is it? There are three ways to say God in Hebrew:אלהים  Elohim (2605 times) only in Hebrew, used most often to refer to the God of Israel, אל El (242 times), both Hebrew and Aramaic, more often used of foreign gods, though nevertheless, used in reference to the true God of Israel, and אלוה Eloah (56 times) used only in Hebrew texts (primarily in Job). All of them have a general meaning of mighty one – really just a title, which can theoretically, be applied to any one who "is mighty".[1] Elohim, unlike el and Eloah, is the plural form meaning gods. Whenever used of the one true God of Israel, however, the verb related to it is always singular.[2] To say my God with el simply requires that one add the letter yud to the end of the word. Thus, El becomes Eli. To add my to plural masculine nouns like Elohim, however, basically requires adding the vowel a and dropping the mem (mem makes a masculine noun plural). Elohim therefore, becomes Elohai. To make the first person possessive of Eloah is similar, though, unfortunately, the first person singular my is not found in the pages of the Bible. There is, however, one passage in Hab 1:11 which does have the possessive pronoun suffix his אלהו – Eloho. Thus, according to the conventions of Hebrew grammar, the way to say my God would be Elohi. (Gallagher, personal correspondence) Aramaic has two ways to say God, El, which is exactly the same as the Hebrew counterpart and the other way is אלה Elah. To say my God is Eli and Elahi similar to the Hebrew forms.
Thus in either Hebrew or Aramaic, we should see one of four forms: Elohai or Elohi (only Hebrew), Eli (both Hebrew and Aramaic) or Elahi (only Aramaic). There are no other possibilities and Eloi is simply not one of the options. In order to discover which language Jesus spoke, we will limit our discussion to Mark's Eloi since Eli could be either Hebrew or Aramaic. We will essentially address two questions:
What happened to the letter he in the middle of the word (equivalent to the letter H)?
Are there any occurrences of Eloi in the Septuagint?
Without Eli we have limited our focus to three candidates for the mysterious Eloi, the two Hebrew words Elohai, Elohi and the Aramaic Elahi. We don't have the actual Hebrew or Aramaic word written in the Hebrew/Aramaic[3] script but the Greek transliteration, which can sometimes be tricky. Some languages don't have the rough breathing sound that the letter H makes. English, for example, can make the sound at the beginning and middle of words but not at the end (this seems normal to us; however, Hebrew can do all three!). Greek is able to produce the H sound at the beginning of words, but not in the middle or end.[4] So, how would one transliterate any of the three from either Hebrew or Aramaic to Greek? There is, in fact, no way to transliterate the words other than by transliterating them without the rough breathing sound, which would yield three different options: Eloai, Eloi and Elai.
To prove the theory, we will select words which we know have the letter ה (letter H) in the middle and then compare them to the Greek transliterations (in the Septuagint) where, if the theory is correct, there should be the absence of a rough breathing mark (like the letter H). For example, Abraham in the Septuagint is Αβραάμ (Abraam).
Table 4 Loss of the ה (H) Sound in Greek
Verse
Hebrew Bible
Transliteration of Hebrew
Septuagint
Transliteration of Greek
Genesis 17:5
אברהם
Abraham
Αβραάμ
Abraam
Exodus 4:14
אהרן
Aharon
Ααρων
Aaron
Judges 3:15
אהוד
Ehud
Αωδ
Aod
I Sam 1:1
אליהוא
Elihu
Ηλιου
Eliu
II Sam 8:16
יהושׁפט
Jehoshaphat
Ιωσαφατ
Josaphat
I Kings 16:1
יהוא
Jehu
Ιου
You
II Kings 23:34
יהויקים
Jehoiakim
Ιωακιμ
Yoakim
Notice from the table that the Hebrew words lose the H in the Greek (and English transliteration). As expected, the Greek version cannot reproduce the H and so it was left out in the transliteration. Therefore, the word Eloi is not necessarily Aramaic simply based on the lack of the letter H. However it is too early to conclude that it is Hebrew. Clearly, the Hebrew letter he or H was lost due to transliteration, but was the original Hebrew or Aramaic? The loss of the letter he in the Greek transliteration leaves us with the following three possibilities: Eloai, Eloi, and Elai.
Clearly Eloi fits perfectly what Mark recorded and fortunately we have an example of this in the Septuagint. Judges 5:5 "The mountains gushed before the LORD, this Sinai before the LORD God of Israel" κυρίου Ελωι, τοῦτο Σινα ἀπὸ προσώπου κυρίου θεοῦ Ισραηλ (kuriou Eloi touto Sina apo prosopou kuriou theou Israel). Notice that they translated the word LORD (YHWH in Hebrew) into Greek as kuriou (Lord) and then added the word Eloi (my God), which is not in the Hebrew text. There are two things that must not be missed here. First of all, the mysterious word in Mark is attested in the Septuagint with exactly the same spelling. Secondly, the Septuagint was translated into Greek from Hebrew and not Aramaic. Thus when looking at Mark 15:34 we have solid evidence of how Elohi was transliterated from Hebrew (not Aramaic!) in to Greek. If Mark had been transliterating from Aramaic, he would probably not have written Eloi ᾿Ελωΐ[5] with the letter omega (ω) since the Aramaic is distinctly elahi and would have better transliterated it as ᾿Ελaΐ with the letter alpha.
In summary, we see that there is no way to actually write the Hebrew Elohai, Elohi, or the Aramaic Elahi except by dropping the letter he. Of the three, Elohi fits perfectly and is attested once in the Septuagint – ᾿Ελωΐ Eloi – the exact same spelling and meaning as what is in Mark 15:34. Furthermore, if Mark had been transliterating Aramaic, it most likely would have appeared as Elai and not Eloi. Our findings may explain the difference between Matthew and Mark since Matthew records Eli, Eli – which has the same meaning but does not present any problems of transliteration. Perhaps knowing this, we might conclude that Matthew simply wrote Eli Eli and not Eloi knowing that Greek letters could not reproduce the word Elohi and since Eli, Eli is how the Hebrew text of Psalm 22:1 reads. And it would seem that Mark opted to write the specific literal words, even though they could not be written exactly in Greek.
[1] Jesus makes reference to this word in John 10:34 of the leaders and judges of Israel.
[2] A beautiful example of the Trinity in the Old Testament (first occurring in Genesis 1:26).
[3] Both Hebrew and Aramaic were written in what was known as Aramaic script just like how English is written using Latin letters.
[4] My lovely wife, Anna, pointed this out to me!
[5] Mark includes the breathing marks and accents making it even clearer that it is to be pronounced Elo-i demonstrating that the Hebrew letter he has been dropped.

Lama
Lama למה, meaning why, is an extremely common word and is used least 145 times in the Hebrew OT in almost every book. It is seen in every phase in Hebrew – from proto Hebrew to Standard Biblical Hebrew to Late Biblical Hebrew and numerous times in the Mishnah. So, we should not be surprised to see it here in Jesus' day as well. The root letters lamed, mem and he are also found in Aramaic, though it should be noted that the vocalization (the vowels) are slightly different than what is recorded in Mark 15:34. The Aramaic word is lema.[6] It is possible that Mark was transliterating the Aramaic lema as λαμα (lama) – although we cannot be dogmatic about the issue, he could have more accurately written it with the Greek letter epsilon (λεμα) if that were the case.[7] However, as the historical sources indicate, it would seem that Mark was simply writing in Hebrew. Moreover, the word lama does not appear in the (Aramaic) Targum of Psalm 22:1. Even though lema exists in Aramaic, the translators of this Targum used two words metul ma, also meaning why. Thus, not only does the Hebrew lama fit better than the Aramaic lema but even the Targum doesn't use the word. Only the Hebrew text has the word that Jesus used while enduring our sins on the cross.
[6] The e is written with a shewa which is a very short sound.
[7] Some manuscripts do contain the variants λεμα lema, λιμα lima, – see The Robinson/Pierpont Byzantine Greek New Testament. However, the Textus Receptus and the Vulgate have λαμμα lamma or λαμα lama respectively.



[/td][/tr][/table]

 
Shabachtani
Shabachtani[8] שׁבקתני appears to be a word of Aramaic origin. It means to leave, leave alone, entrust, bequeath, divorce, permit, forgive, abandon and forsake. It is used a total of five times in the Old Testament, all of which are found in the Aramaic portions of Daniel and Ezra. However, given that there was a limited amount of Aramaic influence exerted on the Hebrew language after the return from the Babylonian captivity, we later see the root shabak[9] שׁבק attested in Jewish writings such as the Jerusalem Talmud, which is where the Mishna is found.
Of the seven occurrences of shabak in the Mishnah, four are clearly couched in Hebrew prose. A passage from the Jerusalem Talmud (31:5:1), is an especially good example of the words surrounding shabak. The text contains certain grammatical structures and vocabulary which occur only in Hebrew and not Aramaic. A few examples are the use of the letter ה he found at the beginning of words which means the (Aramaic has א – aleph at the end of words). Also the word שׁ Shay, that, (used only Hebrew) versus די di[10] (used only in Aramaic). Thus the word shabak, which Jesus spoke on the cross, we find situated in the midst of Mishnaic Hebrew words and grammar, and therefore, we can safely conclude that while this was originally a loan word from Aramaic, by Jesus' day, it had become common place in the Hebrew language. We should actually expect there to be some loan words in the language.
Consider for example, if you live in France and you hear someone say that he intends to do "le jogging" you should not conclude that he is actually speaking English! Likewise, consider the dramatic influence French had on English – we use without any thought words such as pork and beef not knowing that these words are not originally English. This does not lead us to the conclusion that Americans are speaking French, though it does imply that there was some French influence upon the English language. In fact, pork and beef have become so common that we are often surprised to learn that they are French. Nevertheless, though pork and beef are clearly French, the way they are spelled (vs. porc and boeuf) shows that they have been completely assimilated into the English language.[11] And so it is with Shabaktani – the word seems to have come originally from Aramaic but was completely assimilated into (Mishnaic) Hebrew as attested by its usage in the writings of the Mishnah, which as pointed out already, was the final stage of ancient Hebrew before its demise around 200 AD[12]. Also, the ending of the word "ta+ni" is exactly what we would expect in Biblical Hebrew[13] viz. shabakta=you forsook +ni=me.
[8] The Aramaic word is actually Shabachtani – Greek does not have the "sh" sound which is why the NT text has transliterated it as Sabachtani.
[9] The last root letter is like the letter K as in kite. Again this is a matter of transliteration.
[10] The other uses are: זאת zot, בן ben, אני ani, את et - these words are specifically Hebrew. The Aramaic counterpart is different enough so that we can conclude that these words are Hebrew and not Aramaic. Ben and bar (in a later chapter), however, are often interchangeable.
[11] Perhaps even more surprising is discovering that the word sack is in fact a Hebrew word – it is found 17 times in the Old Testament. It has been so completely assimilated that few people ever give it a second thought. It is indeed English, but was originally (and still is!) Hebrew.
[12] Hebrew essentially died as a spoken language but was still in use in Jewish life up until the establishment of Modern Hebrew.
[13] The form, though, is the same in Aramaic.
..........
Conclusion: Jesus Spoke Hebrew as His Primary Language

We set out to discover whether or not the presupposition that Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Hebrew was true.  We saw that the New Testament itself tells us that Jesus spoke Hebrew to Paul (Acts 26:14) and in turn Paul spoke to a large crowd in the Temple in Jerusalem in Hebrew (Acts 22:2).  John also says that places in Israel had Hebrew names and that the sign on the cross was written in Hebrew.  Nowhere in the New Testament do we see the word Aramaic or Syriac – that is except in certain English translations, which assume that Hebrew really meant Aramaic. 

We then considered the question of whether Hebrew does in fact mean Aramaic as some suggest and found that the ancient sources examined are all uniform in their distinction between Hebrew and Aramaic.  Furthermore, ancient sources such as Josephus say unambiguously that the language of the Jews in Israel at the time of Jesus was Hebrew.  This testimony was confirmed by later writers, especially those of the early church who said that Hebrew was the language of the Gospel of Matthew – which fits perfectly with the findings of many scholars who have found Semitic thought patterns (which includes Aramaic) and also specifically Hebrew thought patterns (excluding Aramaic) throughout the New Testament.

Moreover, in order to see if the testimony of the ancient sources was indeed true, we examined the actual words of Jesus and of the Gospels to see if they are Hebrew or if they are Aramaic as is so often claimed.  Not surprisingly, the words which Jesus spoke that had been claimed to be Aramaic, were shown to be Hebrew from either the Bible or Mishnaic Hebrew thus confirming the testimony of John (5:2; 19:13; 19:17), Mark (5:41, 7:34, 15:34), Paul (Acts 21:40, 26:14), the early Church fathers, plus Josephus and others.  Many of the features that have made scholars a hundred years ago relegate these words to Aramaic are a byproduct of transliteration.  Others such as mammon, korban and abba, are words that are clearly evident in the pages of the Mishna and thus are Hebrew or even if some were originally Aramaic, they were by Jesus' day completely assimilated into the Hebrew language.

So, what can we walk away with?  How does this impact you?  First of all, hopefully, this study helped you to see that the New Testament, and of course, the Bible as a whole, is 100% trustworthy.  We can believe every word that it says and we ought to believe God's word as it is written even if the scholarship of the day disagrees.  Scholars, even well intentioned believers, change their opinions over time.  God's word, however, never changes and whether the question is the language of Jesus or whether we can believe that he rose from the dead, God's word has been proven trustworthy. 

Secondly, it should unmistakably demonstrate the eyewitness accounts of the Gospel writers.  They wrote down what they saw and heard.  Though most of them were uneducated fishermen, they left us a record that is accurate even in the minor details.  And most importantly, understanding that Jesus spoke Hebrew provides a continuous tie between the words and thoughts of the Old Testament and those of Jesus and the New Testament.  In short, Jesus came to his people, in their historic language – fulfilling the prophecies of their Hebrew Scriptures.  Jesus spoke Hebrew with his disciples, with the crowds and with the religious leaders of his day.  He probably knew Aramaic and Greek and used them in certain social contexts but his language of communication with the Jewish people, his disciples and the language in which he taught his parables to the masses was undoubtedly Hebrew, as the New Testament claims.

The words ben and bar are Hebrew and Aramaic respectively, meaning son. The demarcation between the two has been thought to be so clear that the ben/bar distinction is often used to decide whether an inscription is Hebrew or Aramaic.  However, Ken Penner, at the 2003 Canadian Society of Biblical Studies Annual Meeting, notes that the ben/bar rule may not be as useful as it was once thought. 
...a clue to the solution may be found in the Bar Kokhba letters...These letters unavailable to Dalman and Zahn a century ago, are from the early second century CE. 1 Some are in Aramaic, some in Hebrew, and some in Greek.  Especially noteworthy for our purposes is the use of Aramaic names within Hebrew letters, and vice-versa.  It is common practice to use the ben/bar distinction to categorize inscriptions as either Hebrew or Aramaic.  But it appears (not only from these letters) that names are not reliable indicators of language.  Names are notoriously resistant to translation. (Penner 2003)

In the letters there are examples of where the Aramaic bar is used in Hebrew correspondence and likewise, Hebrew ben is sometimes used in Aramaic correspondence and both of these occasionally appear in Greek.  Thus, just because we find the word bar recorded in New Testament names, we need not conclude that the name bearers necessarily spoke Aramaic.  Names such as Bar-abbas, Bar-tholomaios, Bar-iesous, Bar-iona, Bar-nabas, Bar-sabas, Bar-timaios have the appearance of Aramaic, but it is impossible to tell which language the bearer of each name spoke. 
The use of non-Hebrew names seems to have been rather common since even the (Jewish) disciples Philip and Andrew have Greek names.  Philip, however, was not from Greece or anywhere else outside of Israel, but was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter according to John 1:44.  Andrew likewise had a completely Greek name, though his brother had a completely Hebrew name – Simon, in honor of one of the 12 Patriarchs, and their father had a completely Hebrew name, Jonah, named after the prophet.  It should be kept in mind that Peter seems to have had three names in all, each in a different language: Shimon (Hebrew), Kepha (probably Aramaic but the root keph is found twice in the Hebrew Bible: Job 30:6 and Jeremiah 4:29), and obviously, Peter (Greek) – talk about culturally diverse!  Just because Philip and Andrew had Greek names, we don't assume that they were Greek or that Greek was their mother tongue (though they may have spoken it as a second or even third language).  Quite possibly what happened was that, like today, the parents knew someone with the name or just simply liked how it sounded.  When I spent a few months in the Dominican Republic during college, my host family had a son named Wilmington and nobody in the family spoke any English! 
However, most of the disciples had Hebrew names: James is simply the Greek form of the Hebrew Jacob (heal catcher).  The name of his brother John reflects the Hebrew name Yochanan (God is gracious).  Thomas is the Greek form of the Hebrew Teom which means twin.  Matthew, Judas, Alphaeus and Lebbaeus are likewise New Testament names of Hebrew stock, which we either find in the Old Testament or at least have an easily identifiable Hebrew root.  Though we do not see any names with the Hebrew word ben (son) preceding it, that may simply be because those were translated in to Greek.  For example, when Jesus speaks to Peter, he says, "Simon son of Jonah" (John 1:42), which more than likely, was Simon ben Jonah.  This conclusion is supported by the high number of Hebrew names attested in the New Testament.

Table 2 Names in the New Testament
Hebrew names – English equivalent
Transliteration
Hebrew
Greek
John
Yochanan
יוחנן
Ἰωάννης
Simon (Peter)
Shimon
שׁמעון
Σίμων
Cephas (Aramaic) (Peter)
Kephas
(כף) כפא
Êçöá͂ò
Thomas
Teom
תּאום
Θωμᾶς
Jacob (James)
Jaakob
יעקב
Ἰάκωβος
Matthew
Matai
מתי
Ματθαῖος
Judas
Jehuda
יהוּדה
Ἰουδάς
Greek names – English equivalent



Peter
Petros

Πέτρος
Philip
Philipos

Φίλιππος
Andrew
Andreas

Ἀνδρέας


The table above demonstrates that even though the Aramaic bar was a common designation for son, most names still come from a Hebrew origin.  Moreover, names are actually a poor indicator of the spoken language since even some of the (Jewish) disciples had either exclusively Greek names or in the case of Peter, had three names, each in a different language.  Thus, the ben/bar distinction proves to be unhelpful in determining which language the person spoke and so the presence of names which have bar does not prove that Aramaic had replaced Hebrew by any means.

1 CE – Common Era is used by some scholars in place of AD.

5And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

9And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.

--Numbers 12



This is so clearly Jesus to me.  But, I've been thinking.  Is the Memra in the shape of a man? He stands, walks, talks face to face, touches with his hand, --he is always described as a man.

When newage talks about god, goddess, all there is, etc...it denies this.  When evolution talks about man from apes...it denies this.

Is it possible that the Word was in the shape of a man before time began?
If so, making man in his own image takes on a dramatic and literal meaning.

Numbers 12


1 Miriam and Aaron began to say bad things about Moses. That's because Moses had married a woman from Cush. 2 "Has the Lord spoken only through Moses?" they asked. "Hasn't he also spoken through us?" The Lord heard what they said.

3 Moses wasn't very proud at all. In fact, he had less pride than anyone else on the face of the earth.

4 The Lord spoke to Moses, Aaron and Miriam. He said, "All three of you, come out to the Tent of Meeting." So they did. 5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent. And he told Aaron and Miriam to come to him. Both of them stepped forward.

6 Then the Lord said, "Listen to my words.


   "Suppose one of my prophets is among you.
      I make myself known to him in visions.
      I speak to him in dreams.
7 But that is not true of my servant Moses.
      He is faithful in everything he does in my house.
8 With Moses I speak face to face.
      I speak with him clearly. I do not speak in riddles.
      I let him see something of what I look like.
   So why were you not afraid
      to speak against my servant Moses?"

9 The anger of the Lord burned against them. And he left them.

10 When the cloud went up from above the tent, there stood Miriam. She had a disease that made her skin as white as snow.

   Aaron turned toward her. He saw that she had a skin disease. 11 So he said to Moses, "We have committed a very foolish sin. Please don't hold it against us. 12 Don't let Miriam be like a baby that was born dead. Don't let her look like a dead baby whose body is half eaten away."

13 So Moses cried out to the Lord. He said, "God, please heal her!"

14 The Lord answered Moses. He said, "Suppose her father had spit in her face. Then she would have been put to shame for seven days. So keep her outside the camp for seven days. After that, you can bring her back."

15 So Miriam was kept outside the camp for seven days. The people didn't move on until she was brought back.

16 After that, the people left Hazeroth. They camped in the Desert of Paran.

Moses calls the Word, 'Jehovah' and 'God.'



Numbers  12:13  And MosesH4872 criedH6817 untoH413 the LORD,H3068 saying,H559 HealH7495 her now,H4994 O God,H410 I beseech thee.H4994


"the LORD"
H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.


"O God"
H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."

Numbers 14

10 But all of the people talked about killing Joshua and Caleb by throwing stones at them.

   Then the glory of the Lord appeared at the Tent of Meeting. All of the people of Israel saw it. 11 The Lord spoke to Moses. He said, "How long will these people make fun of me? How long will they refuse to believe in me? They refuse even though I have done many miraculous signs among them. 12 So I will strike them down with a plague. I will destroy them. But I will make you into a greater and stronger nation than they are."

13 Moses said to the Lord, "Then the Egyptians will hear about it. You used your power to bring these people up from among them.

14 "And the Egyptians will tell the people who live in Canaan about it. Lord, they have already heard a lot about you. They've heard that you are with these people. They've heard that you have been seen face to face. They've been told that your cloud stays over them. They've heard that you go in front of them in a pillar of cloud by day. They've been told that you go in front of them in a pillar of fire at night.

15 "Suppose you put these people to death all at one time. Then the nations who have heard those things about you will talk. They'll say, 16 "The Lord took an oath. He promised to give these people the land of Canaan. But he wasn't able to bring them into it. So he killed them in the desert.'

17 "Now, Lord, show your strength. You have said, 18 "I am the Lord. I am slow to get angry. I am full of love. I forgive those who sin. I forgive those who refuse to obey. But I do not let guilty people go without punishing them. I punish the children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren for the sin of their parents.'

19 "Lord, your love is great. So forgive the sin of these people. Forgive them just as you have done from the time they left Egypt until now."

20 The Lord replied, "I have forgiven them, just as you asked. 21 You can be sure that I live. You can be sure that my glory fills the whole earth.

22 "And you can be just as sure that these men will not see the land I promised to give them. They have seen my glory. They have seen the miraculous signs I did in Egypt. And they have seen what I did in the desert. But they did not obey me. And they have put me to the test ten times. 23 So not even one of them will ever see the land I promised with an oath to give to their people of long ago. No one who has made fun of me will ever see it.

24 "But my servant Caleb has a different spirit. He follows me with his whole heart. So I will bring him into the land he went to. And his children after him will receive land there.



Jude 1 [English Standard Version]

5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

I would like to see a translation that doesn't use the words 'god' and 'lord'. Instead using Father and Son.
I think it's enough for a whole new denomination (war)  :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 27, 2011, 10:28:21 AM
I would like to see a translation that doesn't use the words 'god' and 'lord'. Instead using Father and Son.
I think it's enough for a whole new denomination (war)  :winkgrin:

well, E sword references the definitions of 'God' and Lord' but there is a Bible online that just replaced those words with the original Hebrew, but I can't seem to find it anymore.  I'll keep looking.

If there's a war, what would we be fighting about?  I can only think of one place in the OT where 'Son' is used.

In E-sword for numbers 14 which I quoted above, all references to LORD [or Lord in the version I quoted] refers to the name of God, 'Jehovah.'

Of course, 'Jehovah' comes from YHWH, which is I AM THAT I AM, which Jesus identified himself as when he said, Before Abraham was, I AM.


58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

--John 8

13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

--Ex 3

Quote from: Molly on March 27, 2011, 10:32:57 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 27, 2011, 10:28:21 AM
I would like to see a translation that doesn't use the words 'god' and 'lord'. Instead using Father and Son.
I think it's enough for a whole new denomination (war)  :winkgrin:

well, E sword references the definitions of 'God' and Lord'

As a former e-Sword user I would like to strongly suggest giving www.theword.net a serious try.

Quotebut there is a Bible online that just replaced those words with the original Hebrew, but I can't seem to find it anymore.  I'll keep looking.

Is it called "Hebrew Name Version"?

^HNVMatt 1
1 The book of the generation of Yeshua the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Avraham.
2 Avraham became the father of Yitzchak. Yitzchak became the father of Ya`akov. Ya`akov became the father of Yehudah and his brothers.
3 Yehudah became the father of Peretz and Zerach by Tamar. Peretz became the father of Chetzron. Chetzron became the father of Ram.
4 Ram became the father of `Amminadav. `Amminadav became the father of Nachshon. Nachshon became the father of Salmon.
5 Salmon became the father of Bo`az by Rachav. Bo`az became the father of `Oved 1 by Rut. `Oved 1 became the father of Yishai.
6 Yishai became the father of David the king. David became the father of Shlomo by her who had been the wife of Uriyah.
7 Shlomo became the father of Rechav`am. Rechav`am became the father of Aviyah. Aviyah became the father of Asa.
8 Asa became the father of Yehoshafat. Yehoshafat became the father of Yoram. Yoram became the father of `Uzziyah.
9 `Uzziyah became the father of Yotam. Yotam became the father of Achaz. Achaz became the father of Chizkiyahu.
10 Chizkiyahu became the father of Menasheh. Menasheh became the father of Amon. Amon became the father of Yoshiyahu.

If so; God and Lord are translated the same way KJV did.

QuoteIf there's a war, what would we be fighting about?  I can only think of one place in the OT where 'Son' is used.

That's not enough? People fight about every difference. Take trinity for example. Surely it's interesting to discuss. But would it make God more/less/equally powerful if trinity is (not) true?
Search for sites that compare each letter of a new translation with the KJV. Every diffrence means blasphemy. Image what happens if half the God verses become 'Son verses'.
I can't think of one but likely it has some theologically implications that really matter.

41 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am the LORD your God.'
--Num 15



1 Sam 3

20And all Israel from Dan even to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the LORD.

21And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.



Is there anyone who doesn't see this?

9Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

--Gen 49



Judah is a lion's cub--

5And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."

--Rev 5:5



"Shiloh"

H7886
שׁילה
shı̂ylôh
shee-lo'
From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh.

11And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.

12And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

13And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.

14And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?

15And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.

16And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.

--Judges 6

 17 Gideon replied, "If you are pleased with me, give me a special sign. Then I'll know that it's really you talking to me. 18 Please don't go away until I come back. I'll bring my offering and set it down in front of you."

   The Lord said, "I will wait until you return."

19 Gideon went and prepared a young goat. From more than half a bushel of flour he made bread without using yeast. He put the meat in a basket. In a pot he put soup that was made from the meat. Then he brought all of it and offered it to the Lord under the oak tree.

20 The angel of God spoke to Gideon. He said, "Take the meat and the bread. Place them on this rock. Then pour out the soup." So Gideon did it.

21 The angel of the Lord had a wooden staff in his hand. With the tip of his staff he touched the meat and the bread. Fire blazed out of the rock. It burned up the meat and the bread. Then the angel of the Lord disappeared.

22 Gideon realized it was the angel of the Lord. He cried out, "Lord and King, I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"

23 But the Lord said to him, "May peace be with you! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."

24 So Gideon built an altar to honor the Lord there. He called it The Lord Is Peace. It still stands in Ophrah to this very day. Ophrah is in the territory that belongs to the family line of Abiezer.

--Judges 6




"Lord and King" [v 22]

'ădônây yehôvih"



"The Lord Is Peace"  [v 24]

yehôvâh shâlôm

It seems this place is more fruitfull to receive truth about the divinity of Jesus. It's good that people are respecting the power of our saviour.

The following verses should increase faith in who Jesus is. Judging by the style of communication, I reason that it is the spirit of Jesus that is influencing Isiah and not the Father, because it sounds just like Jesus. Also remember that the first book that Jesus read in the synagogue was the book of Isiah. I hope these verses will be a blessing.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour

He that believeth upon me shall have everlasting life
Jesus

Isaiah 43:13
Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

No one shall take them out of my hand, for they are mine
Jesus

Isaiah 43:15
I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King

Jesus on the cross, written king of the Jews

Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Know that the son of man has power to forgive sins.
Jesus

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Revelation
I am the Alpha and Omega

Jesus calls out to the father, "why have you forsaken me". The Father = the Lord of Hosts the reedemer of Jesus, the redeemer of the LORD the king of Israel?

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


New testament Paul
All things were created for Him and through him

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.


There is no other name that mankind might be saved but through Jesus



Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Romans come out to arrest Jesus, "where is he"

I am he

They fell to the ground backwords

Isaiah 52:6
Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Do not be affraid it is I

My sheep know my voice and follow me.
Jesus

Gen 46:3 And saying is He, "I am the El, the Elohim of your forefather. You must not fear to go down to Egypt, for a great nation will I constitute you there.
Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 18:6  As soon then as he had said unto them, I am,-- they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Amen Molly!

Thanks for posting micah. John 18:6 talks about how Jesus says I am he, which was spoken in Isaiah 43:25

9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: "Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city." 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
--Acts 18

The Hebrew word for the divine law is Torah. The first letter, tav, was originally written as a cross. It literally means "a sign" and is used in Ez. 9:4, where it is translated as a "mark" to be put on the foreheads of the divinely protected ones. This is the ancient origin of the practice of writing the sign of the cross on one's forehead.

The second letter in Torah is the vav, which literally means "a nail."

The third letter in Torah is the resh, which means "a head" or "the head" in the sense of the leader.

The final letter in Torah is the hey, which, when it appears at the end of the word, means "what comes from."

Putting these letters together spells the Hebrew word, Torah, and it literally means "What comes from the Leader nailed to the Cross." It is a prophecy that identifies the giver of the Torah as Jesus Christ, the Head or King, the Crucified One, gave the law to Moses many years before He was born of Mary.

I am sure it is my lack of understanding but I lost track of the post "God has a solid form?" on around #28 I had the thought that the question was, has God a solid form..... I went into the woods at #28 and one cold say I got lost  :mshock:. I did in the beginning consider the question very interesting. ... thanks

Here you go, Micah.  John sees, hears, and touches Jesus/God.



10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

--Rev 1

I think God is like water, he is fluid, yet can be solid like ice, he is Spirit and the spirit comes and goes like the wind. Maybe that's why God calls himself I am. He is so fast that even before you pray, he is there,

before you pray I will answer thee.

-------------------------------
He's a supersonic God that flies through the air, before you blow your nose he is standing there
Hes supersonic, super sonic God, yeah.

If any Christian record companies reading this, want to sign me up? ......  :icon_jokercolor:

I guess its just me the word "solid" through me, also I m of the belief that the Book of Revelation is a book of signs(symbols) not literal or solid, so forgive my ignorance. I have totally misread and misunderstood the post.

It might be a book of signs, but it's being given to him by the Living God.

Quote from: thinktank on March 31, 2011, 02:49:25 AM
I think God is like water, he is fluid, yet can be solid like ice, he is Spirit and the spirit comes and goes like the wind. .

^YLTGen 3
8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

Looks like solid. But is it? Jesus is a lamb but not an animal. Jesus is water but solid. Jesus is bread but doesn't look, feel, taste or smell like bread. So maybe the steps of God are something entirely different....?

---

^YLTGen 1
1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth--

Spirit in the OT is often translated as wind or breath. But it's the Spirit OF God as in all the OT verses I checked. So my guess it's HS.
In the NT we read "God is (a) Spirit", but in Greek wind isn't part of the defenition.
So for me that means we know HS wind.

Is God liquid? I only have seen verse that say Jesus is water. But we know he was solid.
I also wonder if we should read water as water. Water seems to signify gold (see my little post about the laver)

QuoteMaybe that's why God calls himself I am. He is so fast that even before you pray, he is there, before you pray I will answer thee.

What if I say God hardly ever moves? Omni present means being a different places at the same time.

Why would they bother to hide behind trees if they didn't believe he was as solid as they were?

Seems silly to try to hide behind trees from a spirit.

Once I did hide behind my hands when playing hide and seek  :winkgrin:

I think it's a natual and logical reaction.
My guess is that God (if really there and visible) appeared in a localized form. Not a giant cloud the size of the USA. It walked so wasn't instantly there. So whatever form I think God didn't use any devine powers.
So he just approached and one could hid from Him.
Also remember they were a bunch of Iraqis  :laughhand:

Just look at it like a ghost movie. The entity isn't solid. Is there any indication Adam and Eve ever really saw God?

Quote from: wwIs there any indication Adam and Eve ever really saw God?

It's kind of assumed they saw him because they were interacting with him so much.

He brings the animals for adam to name, presents eve to adam, talks back and forth to them, makes them skins and clothes them before they leave the garden.

Outside the garden, he is teaching and interacting with Cain and Abel.

For us literalists, the Lord walked because he had feet. :happygrin:


24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
--Gen 5

No man saw God and lived. Adam was a man and lived long after he named the animals.
If it wasn't God but Jesus then that problem is solved.

We are interacting too Molly.

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2011, 03:31:31 PM
No man saw God and lived. Adam was a man and lived long after he named the animals.
If it wasn't God but Jesus then that problem is solved.

We are interacting to Molly.

I know by faith that you have feet.

Yes, it's Jesus.  But they call him 'God.'

Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2011, 03:28:25 PM
For us literalists, the Lord walked because he had feet. :happygrin:


24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
--Gen 5

Walk

1a2) to die, live, manner of life  (figuratively)

Enoch walked with God so God walked with Enoch.
They had the same life style.

God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. Same life style.

Until man made a mistake; he listened to opinion of a woman  :happy3:
From that point God no longer walked with Adam

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2011, 03:37:32 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2011, 03:28:25 PM
For us literalists, the Lord walked because he had feet. :happygrin:


24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
--Gen 5

Walk

1a2) to die, live, manner of life  (figuratively)

Enoch walked with God so God walked with Enoch.
They had the same life style.

God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. Same life style.

Until man made a mistake; he listened to opinion of a women  :happy3:
From that point God no longer walked with Adam

LOL!  I said literalist for a reason.

"walked"

H1980
הלך
hâlak
haw-lak'
Akin to H3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man, X be weak, whirl.

Yeah I know walk also means walk.
I'm just using the other primary meaning of the word and see if something locical comes up.
And I see the interpretation I just gave as a possiblity.
"God walked with..." is used several times in OT. Maybe this is the same.



hâlak
BDB Definition:
1) to go, walk, come
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to go, walk, come, depart, proceed, move, go away
1a2) to die, live, manner of life (figuratively)
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to walk
1b2) to walk (figuratively)
1c) (Hithpael)
1c1) to traverse
1c2) to walk about
1d) (Niphal) to lead, bring, lead away, carry, cause to walk
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: akin to H3212, a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 498

It just sounds very literal to me.


Genesis 3:8 (New International Version, ©2011)

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
--Gen 3

Have you noticed that whenever they see God in the OT [and when they figure out who he is, they always think they're going to die--he has to assure them they will not die] but whenever they see God, he looks like a man?

The only exception I can think to this in the entire Bible is possibly what Paul saw--light--and in the book of Revelation.  There might be others, but I can't think of them off hand.




2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby.


5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

--Rev 4

Im lost as usual. I dont see walking or hearing  as solid.
Examples of SOLID
Concrete is a solid material.
When ice melts, it passes from a solid to a liquid form.
I was on a liquid diet when I was sick because I couldn't digest solid food.
I was glad to get off the plane and back on solid ground.
The pond was frozen solid.
The ring is solid gold.
a chunk of solid marble
I prefer solid colors like blue or green instead of plaids and stripes.

Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2011, 04:16:30 PM
Have you noticed that whenever they see God in the OT [and when they figure out who he is, they always think they're going to die--he has to assure them they will not die] but whenever they see God, he looks like a man?

Maybe the translation is easy afterall.

KJV (YLT)

GOD (Jehovah) = Father
God (Lord) = Son
LORD (Jehovah) = Father
Lord (Lord) = Son

But even that is problematic because "LORD God (Jehovah God) walked in the garden. :sigh:

 

Quote from: MicahI dont see walking or hearing  as solid.

How about seeing and touching then?

How are you doing, Micah?

Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2011, 12:47:25 PM
It might be a book of signs, but it's being given to him by the Living God.

What is solid about that? God is Spirit, God is Love.  I am not understanding.

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 31, 2011, 04:35:05 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2011, 12:47:25 PM
It might be a book of signs, but it's being given to him by the Living God.

What is solid about that? God is Spirit, God is Love.  I am not understanding.

what is solid is the LORD of the OT which John sees, hears, and touches in Rev 1.

God is not an abstraction to the OT saints, Micah.

Deuteronomy 5:26
For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?

No, not an abstraction, nor was He an abirition. God is in, all of His creation, even a name, but this is not solid, at least that is my reasoning.
Joh 1:18  God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.
Joh 1:18 God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."
Joh 1:18  No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted him .

Micah, what version is the last that says "He, hath interpreted him"?

I like that, thats good.  We can't comprehend the Father (like a foreign language because of his vastness)  We can't experience the dimensions He encompasses because of our 4D limit (we only speak english).  Christ became 4D (speaks english) to speak to us the truths of the beautiful language that is the vastness of the Father.

Quote from: redhotmagma on March 31, 2011, 07:21:43 PM
Micah, what version is the last that says "He, hath interpreted him"?

Rotherham.

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2011, 04:30:03 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2011, 04:16:30 PM
Have you noticed that whenever they see God in the OT [and when they figure out who he is, they always think they're going to die--he has to assure them they will not die] but whenever they see God, he looks like a man?

Maybe the translation is easy afterall.

KJV (YLT)

GOD (Jehovah) = Father
God (Lord) = Son
LORD (Jehovah) = Father
Lord (Lord) = Son

But even that is problematic because "LORD God (Jehovah God) walked in the garden. :sigh:

What if it were the Son who walked in the garden?

CHB

In that case the translation makes no sense.
Jehovah is used for Father. Not for Father and Son imo.

If GOD=Father then Father (almost) did no creating. Until Genesis 2. There it's LORD God.
It just doesn't makes sense. I would say the KJV translators used caps for a reason.
Perhaps it's just doctrinal bias.
I checked Strongs and there is no difference between GOD and God....

Quote from: wwJehovah is used for Father. Not for Father and Son imo.

And you know this, how?



15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1



10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

--John 1

Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2011, 08:50:24 PM

Quote from: wwJehovah is used for Father. Not for Father and Son imo.

And you know this, how?



15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1



10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

--John 1

Good question.   Father ...."ab"  Jehovah..."self exsisting one" Lord

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

--1 Cor 12:3



"Lord"

G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2011, 03:31:31 PM
No man saw God and lived. Adam was a man and lived long after he named the animals.
If it wasn't God but Jesus then that problem is solved.

We are interacting too Molly.

No man has seen God the Father, only God the Son.

CHB

whatsoever you have done unto "them" you have done unto "me".  Is God who we think he is??? Perhaps not.

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2011, 03:37:32 PM
Until man made a mistake; he listened to opinion of a woman  :happy3:
From that point God no longer walked with Adam

Well, it took Satan himself to deceive Eve.  Adam was deceived by a woman.  :icon_queen: :girlheart:

CHB

Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2011, 08:50:24 PM

Quote from: wwJehovah is used for Father. Not for Father and Son imo.

And you know this, how?



15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1



10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

--John 1

First of all I prefer the name Yaweh.
Jesus or Yahsua means Yah saves.
That's why I think Yahweh always points to Father.

You also need to read that thought in context. As a KJV reader you surely know it uses LORD, Lord, GOD and God.
Now my question to everyone is show me some verses in Hebrew that indicate a difference between for example GOD and God.
If it isn't in the Hebrew it's just some fantasy of the KJV translators....

EDIT
JPS (Jewish Publishing Society) uses caps like KJV does.

Quote from: Nathan on March 31, 2011, 10:56:13 PM
whatsoever you have done unto "them" you have done unto "me".  Is God who we think he is??? Perhaps not.

1 John 3
1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

Quote from: CHB on March 31, 2011, 10:58:35 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2011, 03:37:32 PM
Until man made a mistake; he listened to opinion of a woman  :happy3:
From that point God no longer walked with Adam

Well, it took Satan himself to deceive Eve.  Adam was deceived by a woman.  :icon_queen: :girlheart:

CHB

I hope you are aware that for that remark I'll pay you back with a double portion  :spank:

Quote from: Nathan on March 31, 2011, 10:56:13 PM
whatsoever you have done unto "them" you have done unto "me".  Is God who we think he is??? Perhaps not.

^YLTMatt 25
40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .

ἀδελφός
adelphos
Thayer Definition:
1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
6a) his brothers by blood
6b) all men
6c) apostles
6d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb)
Citing in TDNT: 1:144, 22

I think none of the defenition point to Father. Father only has children.
"a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother"
Jesus is the Son of Father.
Christians are the son of Father.
Same Father so Christians are brother of Jesus

So me=Jesus.

If we've seen the Son, we've seen the Father, no?

Quote from: Lefein on March 31, 2011, 11:40:47 PMIf we've seen the Son, we've seen the Father, no?

I think that's not the regular type of seen (visually)

I think it's about character. So say you lived 2000 years ago with Jesus for a week. You experienced His honesty, sense of humor, integrity, etc.
Father has exactly the same character.
I guess you can also "see" Jesus when studying the Bible.
So their character "is one" :dontknow:

Well, I didn't mean visually either.  But then - I don't suspect that the verse saying no one has seen the Father is speaking "visually" specifically either.

Perhaps it speaks in a way like this; "The Father has not been wholly and fully comprehended or experienced by any mortal man".  But in Jesus we may see Him continually unfolding before us.

I can agree with that.
But how does that relate to God being solid or not. Or what verse speaks about Father and what verse about Son.

Well, if the verse about no man seeing God is not speaking specifically of the visual;

Theon oudeis heroraken popote ho monogenes huios ho on eis ton kolpon tou patros ekeinos exegesato

God no one has ever ["horao" - heoraken] (seen); the only generated son, the who is in the bosom of the Father, he unfolds him.

---

G3708  horao  hor-ah'-o

properly, to stare at (compare G3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally);

by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear.

---

And then there is;

John 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

---

What I am saying is that the verse is not perhaps speaking specifically about the visual, then it must be about comprehension of the Father's nature as we both agree.  If we've seen Jesus, and if by seeing Jesus we see the Father unfolding before us - then it may well be that we see or it is possible to see the Father in the visual way as he is unfolded to us.

The Father may in his fullest omnipotence be able to express a solid expression of himself that is visible, and viewable even if it is not "fully comprehended or "horao"'.  In much the same way that perhaps, Jesus is that very visible expression (amongst many other things besides the visible), the Word made flesh, the image of the invisible God.

In which case, yes God may have solid shape.  Through Jesus, or through other methods we are not yet comprehending.

How about this for Father and God....
Isa 9:6  For, A Child, hath been born to us, A Son, hath been given to us, And the dominion is upon his shoulder,—And his Name hath been called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty GOD, Father of Futurity, Prince of Prosperity.

I still say as before, only in the form that He wishes to unfold Himself, but yes God is a solid form.

Joh 5:37  `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
Joh 14:9  Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?
Joh 15:24  if I did not do among them the works that no other hath done, they were not having sin, and now they have both seen and hated both me and my Father;

I must agree with you friend Lefein.

Lefein,

The topic title isn't very well chosen.
If Father can do everything He also can appear solid.
So a better question who be: Does the Bible report He was on earth as a solid person.
I think all agree no human ever saw God in whatever form. Solid/liquid/vapor.
Then what use would it be God even bothers to appear in a solid form if nobody is going to see Him?

This thread was about solid and another thread I started minutes later was about what verses are about Father and what verses about Son.
Both topics are in discussed in this thread. That's fine becaus eon second thought the questions in a way are very similar.
It's often said "the God of the Bible".
If I had only was allowed to chose Father or Son as an answer to "Who is God/Lord in the Bible" I would without hesitation choose Son.
I that feeling for quite some time and following this thread that feeling gets stronger each post.
Not claiming the Father isn't in the Bible at all. But far less than many think.
So if there is really a solid person walking in Eden I would say it was Jesus.
But that's just a guess. Now I want proof. I think a good start would be to figure out why some verse use GOD and others God.
If there is a difference then the proof for two 'persons' is a lot stronger i.m.o.

Quote from: wwI think a good start would be to figure out why some verse use GOD and others God.

I'm not sure what verses you are talking about.  I have never seen that distinction, except in the JW Bible.

I suspect that GOD is a cover up for YAH, while God is used instead of eloihim...

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2011, 11:33:37 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 31, 2011, 10:56:13 PM
whatsoever you have done unto "them" you have done unto "me".  Is God who we think he is??? Perhaps not.

^YLTMatt 25
40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .

ἀδελφός
adelphos
Thayer Definition:
1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
6a) his brothers by blood
6b) all men
6c) apostles
6d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb)
Citing in TDNT: 1:144, 22

I think none of the defenition point to Father. Father only has children.
"a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother"
Jesus is the Son of Father.
Christians are the son of Father.
Same Father so Christians are brother of Jesus

So me=Jesus.

This came to me, don't know it its scriptural, but I think it is. That Jesus as God is our father in a spiritual sense because He created us. But Also Jesus was made in the form of a servant, he took on himself not the nature of angels but of the seed of Abraham, therefore he became our kinsman, our fellow human brother. So in a sense there are 2 Jesus. One is His Godship and the other is His human form, otherwise known as the morning star. Did you notice in the book of revelation that Jesus says I WILL GIVE HIM THE MORNING STAR. Why not say I will GIVE HIM MYSELF?.

Because from what I have discovered, the resurected earthly Jesus, has a different personality to Jesus the God, they are still same person, just that the resurected Jesus is someone we can relate to as a human being, something like that.

The begining of Revelation says I Jesus AM THE MORNING STAR

in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;
2Cor 4:4


god and God are the same word, G2316,  the difference being the context.  Both mean deity in the Greek.

'god' is Satan--the god of this age.

We are also gods, I often see Christian groups criticize churches etc for teaching that we are gods, but they seem to miss Gods very own words in Genesis and also Jesus reminds us of what he said.


John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Relevant for what we discussed earlier also......

TT  when he says I will give him the morning star--what does he mean by that?

I liked what you said above.

Possibly in the sense that, just as the disciples sat around a camp fire and ate fish with the Jesus that they spent 3 years with together, maybe he will give us the morning star, in the sense of being there in real substance, that we may touch and feel, just as Thomas did.

But it depends on who the morning star is, perhaps I have it back to front, that the morning star is a reference to his Godship, rather than his Humanly form, and he gives us His God self to enjoy for eternity, while perhaps his Resurected Earthly body is more localized and, only One of Him, so that means possibly only a few people can meet, that person who spoke to John...

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 24, 2011, 12:00:42 PM
^YLTGen 3
8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

Steps can only be heard if a solid foot touches the ground.

You say steps, the verse reads Gen 3:8 And hearing are they the sound of Yahweh Elohim walking, it says in Strongs, walk is (used in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively) dont we know from the NT that God is Spirit? I sometimes can hear thoughts walking in my mind, but there are no steps, nor foot touching.
What does the sound of Yahweh Elohim make?  I believe it is many, but mostly I consider wind. These are just thoughts walking in my mind( no pun intended)

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2011, 11:23:37 PM

Quote from: CHB on March 31, 2011, 10:58:35 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 31, 2011, 03:37:32 PM
Until man made a mistake; he listened to opinion of a woman  :happy3:
From that point God no longer walked with Adam

Well, it took Satan himself to deceive Eve.  Adam was deceived by a woman.  :icon_queen: :girlheart:

CHB

I hope you are aware that for that remark I'll pay you back with a double portion  :spank:

Yeah, I know.  :laughing7:

CHB

Quote from: micah7:9 on April 01, 2011, 03:25:20 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 24, 2011, 12:00:42 PM
^YLTGen 3
8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

Steps can only be heard if a solid foot touches the ground.

You say steps, the verse reads Gen 3:8 And hearing are they the sound of Yahweh Elohim walking, it says in Strongs, walk is (used in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively) dont we know from the NT that God is Spirit? I sometimes can hear thoughts walking in my mind, but there are no steps, nor foot touching.
What does the sound of Yahweh Elohim make?  I believe it is many, but mostly I consider wind. These are just thoughts walking in my mind( no pun intended)

Actually what they hear is his voice--he is calling to them--and they hide themselves from his presence [face].  Doesn't it say  that man cannot hear God either?  Well, they are hearing him and seeing him.

Gen 3:8  And they heardH8085 (H853) the voiceH6963 of the LORDH3068 GodH430 walkingH1980 in the gardenH1588 in the coolH7307 of the day:H3117 and AdamH121 and his wifeH802 hid themselvesH2244 from the presenceH4480 H6440 of the LORDH3068 GodH430 amongstH8432 the treesH6086 of the garden.H1588

I'm not just carrying on idle conversation here or arguing for the sake of argument.

I want people to know what is possible with our Lord.

Yes, you can see him and hear him.  It is possible.

He visited with both the OT and NT saints.


4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

--Psa 8

Quote from: Molly on April 01, 2011, 01:07:23 AM

Quote from: wwI think a good start would be to figure out why some verse use GOD and others God.

I'm not sure what verses you are talking about.

All verses

QuoteI have never seen that distinction, except in the JW Bible.

Wrong JPS and KJV also have that distinction.
I want to know on what they base that distiction. (beside doctrinal bias)

Quote from: thinktank on April 01, 2011, 01:28:04 AMThis came to me, don't know it its scriptural, but I think it is. That Jesus as God is our father in a spiritual sense because He created us.

Maybe even literally. That's one of the things I want to figure our.
BTW that would make Father a Grand Father. Unless you are prepared to read father in the genealogies as ancestor....

Why do we have "The LORD" in our bibles rather than Yahweh?
This is a very common question. It all began with a Jewish tradition called the "ineffable name" doctrine. Jews, for various reasons, started to substitute His name with the Hebrew title "Adonai". Adonai is the Hebrew word for "Lord". This information can be easily verified in many Bible dictionaries and various encyclopedias. For instance, the Encyclopedia Britannica states:


Yahweh, the God of the Israelites, his name being revealed to Moses as four Hebrew CONSONANTS (YHWH) CALLED THE TETRAGRAMMATON. AFTER THE EXILE (6TH CENTURY BC), and especially from the 3rd century BC on, Jews ceased to use the name Yahweh for two reasons. As Judaism became a universal religion through its proselytizing in the Greco-Roman world, the more common noun elohim, meaning "god," tended to replace Yahweh to demonstrate the universal sovereignty of Israel's God over all others. At the same time, the divine name was increasingly regarded as too sacred to be uttered; it was thus replaced vocally in the synagogue ritual by the Hebrew word Adonai ("My Lord"), which was translated as Kyrios ("Lord") in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament.
We see in the above quote that Jews started to vocally replace the name "Yahweh" with "Adonai" (Lord) for two reasons:

1. It was beginning to be believed that His name was too sacred to be uttered

2. They preferred to simply call Him "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" to demonstrate to the world that He is the only true Elohim.

While on the surface these reasons may seem honorable, they are very unscriptural. They were and are attempts to improve on Yahweh's already perfect ways. If Yahweh really wanted a substitute, why would He have placed His name there to begin with? Though scripture says to follow Yahweh rather than man, we find that nearly 7,000 times the most important name of all is replaced with a another word that man has chosen. 

This tradition was not practiced by the Messiah or the apostles, but it was adopted by some Christians during the early half of the 2nd Century CE/AD. By the 4th century, this practice was well established and widely practiced. Jerome, a 4th century "Church Father" who authored the Latin Vulgate version, substituted the name "Yahweh" throughout with the Latin word "Dominus" (meaning "Lord"). The tradition of replacing Yahweh's name with "the LORD" continues to this day. Most English translations substitute the name Yahweh with "the LORD" and translations into other languages will also commonly choose a title meaning "Lord" in their own language. More information on this can be found in the preface of many modern bibles.

http://www.eliyah.com/whythlrd.htm

Quote from: Molly on April 01, 2011, 01:31:23 AM
in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;
2Cor 4:4


god and God are the same word, G2316,  the difference being the context.  Both mean deity in the Greek.

god
N-NSM (Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes)
Part of Speech: Noun
Case: Nominative
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine
Nominative: Generally, the noun "that is doing something" is in the nominative, and the nominative is the dictionary form of the noun.

God
N-GSM (Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes)
Part of Speech: Noun
Case: Genitive
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine

Genitive case is a case in which the referent of the marked noun is the possessor of the referent of another noun

So the difference in this verse is doing and having/being

I only checked a few verses but the real God in those verses is always Genetive


^{Greek LXX+# and Byz/MT NT+#} John 10
35 ει  εκεινους  ειπεν  θεους προς  ους  ο  λογος  του  θεου   εγενετο και ου  δυναται  λυθηναι  η  γραφη

The Christian Bible (1991) doesn't use the term "Lord".  They state;

Lord vs. Master:  The Greek work "kurios" is the antonym (or opposite) of "slave";  and the antonym of "slave" is "master", not "lord."  So we have properly translated "kurious" as "master."

"Lord" was the name of the pagan supreme god of anglo-Saxon (Old English) mythology, and meant "bread-provider."  "Lord" worship was merged by the Catholic Church into their religion, so that they could more easily convert English pagans.

Quote from: Molly on April 01, 2011, 07:13:14 AM
Why do we have "The LORD" in our bibles rather than Yahweh?

I did a quick check based Gen 1:8 and and found that 9 out of 23 Bibles use Yaweh.

QuoteThis is a very common question. It all began with a Jewish tradition called the "ineffable name" doctrine.

That explains nothing.
(almost) all Jews write G-d. That's not the issue here. It's about G-d, G-D and g-d.
So far it's clear to me god always referes to NOT Father or Son.
GOD is said to be Father and God the Son. Same for LORD, Lord and lord.
I think translation mistakes have been made while chosing between GOD and God

Quote from: Molly on April 01, 2011, 04:14:00 AMwhat they hear is his voice--he is calling to them--and they hide themselves from his presence

I don't agree with that. We have to be very precise with that verse... The correct order is:
1. They hear God's footsteps.
2. They hide.
3. God calls them (and obviously they hear His voice)


^YLTGen 3
8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.
9 And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where art thou?'

Lord also means "Master"  :thumbsup:

In the Feudal system of economy and politics, a lord was the master over a group of serfs (who were essentially slaves).

Quote from: jabcat on April 01, 2011, 07:21:39 AM
The Christian Bible (1991) doesn't use the term "Lord".  They state;

Lord vs. Master:  The Greek work "kurios" is the antonym (or opposite) of "slave";  and the antonym of "slave" is "master", not "lord."  So we have properly translated "kurious" as "master."

"Lord" was the name of the pagan supreme god of anglo-Saxon (Old English) mythology, and meant "bread-provider."  "Lord" worship was merged by the Catholic Church into their religion, so that they could more easily convert English pagans.

Is that from the Companion?

I think it answers nothing.
TCB is NT only; but most problems are found in OT. Assuming the OT was written in Greek would they use MASTER, Master and master?

LAUDAMUS te, benedicimus te, adoramus te, glorificamus te, gratias agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam, Domine Deus, Rex caelestis, Deus Pater omnipotens.

WE praise Thee, we bless Thee, we adore Thee, we glorify Thee, we give Thee thanks for Thy great glory, O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLvECMpdHyc&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsU00ybw7Mg&feature=related


Domine Deus LORD God        Rex caelestis Heavenly King

Deus Pater omnipotens  God the Father Almighty

WE with double caps and God with just one....

Keep searching and don't go off-topic. I'll be less online the next week

God was all that existed.  So, iin order for something other to exist, a vacancy had to be made in God.  This was "the lambkin slain before the down-casting of the world."  The little in the emptiness where something other is remains largely a matter of perspective.  It is still like everything is so much God that all could be considered absolute solid, without mixture: God, and anything else impossible...except for the manifestation of this cosmos He is causing, and ourselves along with it.  The molecules of this cosmos, their matter and energy, only make up about 4% of what is here.  The rest is hidden.  It's 21% dark matter and 75% dark energy.  God hides Himself.

He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. (Psalm 18¹¹; KJV)

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High [El Elyon] shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty [El Shaddai.] (Psalm 91¹; KJV)

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 01, 2011, 08:01:52 AM

Heresy
:laughing7:

WE with double caps and God with just one....

Keep searching and don't go off-topic. I'll be less online the next week

You are a hard taskmaster, ww.  Why is the word Heresy bigger than all the other words? :happygrin:

Sometimes they call him LORD [YHWH], LORD God [YHWH Elohiym], Lord [Adon, Adonai], and many other names.  I don't understand the problem. 

Quote. They hear God's footsteps.
2. They hide.
3. God calls them (and obviously they hear His voice)

So is he a solid form?  or not?

Quote from: ReformerHe that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High [El Elyon] shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty [El Shaddai.] (Psalm 911; KJV)

2I will say of the LORD[YHWH] , He is my refuge and my fortress: my God[Elohiym]; in him will I trust.



9Because thou hast made the LORD[YHWH], which is my refuge, even the most High[Elyon], thy habitation;

10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation[Y'shuah].

Quote from: Molly on April 01, 2011, 08:29:06 AM
Sometimes they call him LORD [YHWH], LORD God [YHWH Elohiym], Lord [Adon, Adonai], and many other names.  I don't understand the problem.

I do. A big problem.
All I want to know what sometimes I read LORD and other times Lord?
If the distinction is not in the original texts I want it removed. I want a Bible not a commentary.
If it is in the originals then who is Lord and who is LORD?
 

Quote

Quote. They hear God's footsteps.
2. They hide.
3. God calls them (and obviously they hear His voice)

So is he a solid form?  or not?

Is Jesus a dumb curly animal walking on all fours?
If yes then my answer to your question is: yes.
If no then my answer is: prove it.

Don't you think it is interesting how he says--

Because he has loved me, because he has known my name...I will show [him]  Y'shuah...?

"show"

H7200
ראה
râ'âh
raw-aw'
A primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitively, intransitively and causatively): - advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see (-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-) spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions.

Yes Jesus was visible/100% human 2000 years ago. But that doesn't (dis)prove he walked in Eden. Or...?
:dontknow:

 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

--Col 1


"the image" [of the invisible God]

G1504
εἰκών
eikōn
i-kone'
From G1503; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.



... Christ, who is the image of God.

--2 Cor 4:4



...[the scriptures] are they which testify of me. <------

--John 5



3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power..

--Heb 1


"exact imprint"

G5481
χαρακτήρ
charaktēr
khar-ak-tar'
From the same as G5482; a graver (the tool or the person), that is, (by implication) engraving (["character"], the figure stamped, that is, an exact copy or [figuratively] representation): - express image.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 01, 2011, 08:12:20 PM
Yes Jesus was visible/100% human 2000 years ago. But that doesn't (dis)prove he walked in Eden. Or...?
:dontknow:

Jesus is the image of the invisible God, so if you are seeing God, you are seeing Jesus.  These scriptures above are referring to the pre-incarnate Christ.  Is that something you don't believe in--that there was a pre-incarnate Christ?

Do you really think Adam and Eve saw nothing in the garden?  Just heard spooky sounds and voices, felt and saw the results of disembodied hands?  Then how would they know who was who? The Nachash was there also, plus others.

Then why would they hide from the face of God when he comes walking in the garden?

Molly when I asked

QuoteIs Jesus a dumb curly animal walking on all fours?

I was very serious.
Jesus is called a/the Lamb. But nobody would say Jesus is a sheep.
So we got many verses that state things that are "wrong" because they are symbolic.
Jesus isn't a sheep.
Jesus isn't a bucket of water.
Jesus isn't a loaf of bread.
Jesus isn't barley (first fruit)
Jesus isn't ......

That's my point. You can ask a 100 Greek scholars and they will tell you sheep/water/bread/fruit are good translations.
Some of the verses you showed me indeed are clear. People see Jesus. Adam and Even heard someone walk.
But how much trust can I put in that translation? Is it literal or symbolic?
When Enoch walked with God did he really walked with God.
Or was Enoch just a very good person that lived by every law God has declared.

Sure I have my idea's too. It was for a reason I started this thread and the other one about who is God and who is Jesus in the Bible.
But as we both know people also assumed fire is literal. Only a few are saved. Etc.
All assumptions...

24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

25And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

26And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

27And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

29And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

--Gen 32



"Peniel"

H6439
פּניאל    פּנוּאל
penû'êl  penı̂y'êl
pen-oo-ale', pen-ee-ale'
From H6437 and H410; face of God; Penuel or Peniel, a place East of Jordan; also (as Penuel) the name of two Israelites: - Peniel, Penuel.


God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel." So he named him Israel.
--Gen 35:10

'The God of Bethel.'

"Bethel"

H1008
בּית־אל
bêyth-'êl
bayth-ale'
From H1004 and H410; house of God; Beth-El, a place in Palestine: - Beth-el.




13 The Lord[YHWH] stood above the stairway. He said, "I am the Lord[YHWH]. I am the God[ĕlôhı̂ym] of your grandfather Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your children after you the land on which you are lying. 14 They will be like the dust of the earth that can't be counted. They will spread out to the west and to the east. They will spread out to the north and to the south. All nations on earth will be blessed because of you and your children after you.

15 "I am with you. I will watch over you everywhere you go. And I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."

16 Jacob woke up from his sleep. Then he thought, "The Lord is certainly in this place. And I didn't even know it."

17 Jacob was afraid. He said, "How holy this place is! This must be the house of God. This is the gate of heaven."

18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head. He set it up as a pillar. And he poured oil on top of it. 19 He named that place Bethel.

--Gen 28



Gen 31

10 "Once during the mating season I had a dream. In my dream I looked up and saw male goats mating with the flock. The goats had stripes, speckles or spots.

11 "The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.' I answered, 'Here I am.' 12 He said, 'Look up. See the male goats mating with the flock. All of them have stripes, speckles or spots. That is because I have seen everything that Laban has been doing to you.

13 " 'I am the God of Bethel. That is where you poured oil on a pillar. There you made a promise to me. Now leave this land. Go back to your own land.' "



Genesis 35
1 Then God said to Jacob, "Go up to Bethel and settle there. Build an altar there to honor me. That's where I appeared to you when you were running away from your brother Esau."

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 01, 2011, 07:01:54 AM

Quote from: thinktank on April 01, 2011, 01:28:04 AMThis came to me, don't know it its scriptural, but I think it is. That Jesus as God is our father in a spiritual sense because He created us.

Maybe even literally. That's one of the things I want to figure our.
BTW that would make Father a Grand Father. Unless you are prepared to read father in the genealogies as ancestor....

Perhaps so in a sense. If you take out the worldly association that grandfather= weak, then perhaps grand Father is an appropriate title. Jesus said my Father is greater than all.

Well, in a sense God is all around (in what ever form he may take) our Father; Jesus, Jehovah (Yahweh - The Father), or Holy Spirit.

After all, it is not as though there are three separate gods, but rather one supreme-entity in three co-existent, co-eternal, co-operative, co-interactive co-sentient/sentient expressions (trinitarily speaking, and according to my understanding).

If that makes sense any way. :happygrin:

There is a distinct flavour to all three. Ask the Spirit of the Father to manifest, instead of Jesus and you might notice a difference, between the two.

Well expressions have flavour of course.  But what I'm getting at is, they each are the One entity; the One entity is our maker - each expression had a hand (or his hand) in our creation.  Each has legitimate claim to fatherhood.  The Father's Fatherhood (vs. fatherhood with a lowercase) may have more to do with some higher set of ideals and concepts that he expresses, than mere act of being the prime progenitor.

There will come a time when you don't worship here or there, but in spirit and truth.
The anointing will return just as it did with Jesus.That is why he was called the Christ(anointed)
God will pour out at the right time.He poured out on Jesus at a certain time in history, maybe we showed be looking for similarities or harvest times to know the season of the new anointing on the elect.
blessings :icon_king:

Quote from: thinktank on April 02, 2011, 10:30:32 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 01, 2011, 07:01:54 AM

Quote from: thinktank on April 01, 2011, 01:28:04 AMThis came to me, don't know it its scriptural, but I think it is. That Jesus as God is our father in a spiritual sense because He created us.

Maybe even literally. That's one of the things I want to figure our.
BTW that would make Father a Grand Father. Unless you are prepared to read father in the genealogies as ancestor....

Perhaps so in a sense. If you take out the worldly association that grandfather= weak, then perhaps grand Father is an appropriate title. Jesus said my Father is greater than all.

Ok... a  great grandfather.  :laughing7:

Does the LORD appear to us as a man because we are men and he can chose any shape he pleases so he picks one we can relate to?

Or does he appear to us as a man because that is what he looks like and we are created in his image?


Ezekiel 2

1 He said to me, Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.

    2 As he spoke, the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet, and I heard him speaking to me.

    3 He said: Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against me; they and their fathers have been in revolt against me to this very day.

    4 The people to whom I am sending you are obstinate and stubborn. Say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.'

    5 And whether they listen or fail to listen— for they are a rebellious house— they will know that a prophet has been among them.

    6 And you, son of man, do not be afraid of them or their words. Do not be afraid, though briers and thorns are all around you and you live among scorpions. Do not be afraid of what they say or terrified by them, though they are a rebellious house.

    7 You must speak my words to them, whether they listen or fail to listen, for they are rebellious.

    8 But you, son of man, listen to what I say to you. Do not rebel like that rebellious house; open your mouth and eat what I give you.

    9 Then I looked, and I saw a hand stretched out to me. In it was a scroll,

    10 which he unrolled before me. On both sides of it were written words of lament and mourning and woe.

I don't think God needs to try and please us. Maybe sometimes, but I don't think he hides behind a curtain and reveals that he actually looks like a giant bear... then again , he calls himself the lion of the tribe of Judah....  :icon_jokercolor:

I think one prophet says he rides on the cherubims and he dwells between the cherubims. That settles the issue for me, that he dwells in the holy place, has a throne, yet somehow able to project himself to all people, when we notice him.

Quote from: thinktank on April 05, 2011, 09:58:40 PM
I don't think God needs to try and please us. Maybe sometimes, but I don't think he hides behind a curtain and reveals that he actually looks like a giant bear... then again , he calls himself the lion of the tribe of Judah....  :icon_jokercolor:

I think one prophet says he rides on the cherubims and he dwells between the cherubims. That settles the issue for me, that he dwells in the holy place, has a throne, yet somehow able to project himself to all people, when we notice him.

A cherub is an "imaginary" figure H3742 its just something that helps me understand