Hi! All you lovely people.
To start let me ask. Do you consider me old enough at 89 to dream dreams? 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;" Acts 2:17)?
It's so sad that my "River Of Life" thread had no takers, so let us try this new thread. "Through The Eyes Of A Child."
"Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn.3:3)
"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all." (Luke 18:17).
Now let us examine (Gen.2:10-25 and Gen.3:1-24). When Adam and Eve were mere innocent children of God, if you'll notice, God walked with man freely in the garden. In other words the River of Life - mentioned in (Rev.22:1-2) - flowed freely in the garden nourishing all that man cultivated.
"Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.....Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."..."And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." (Gen.2:7-9, 15-17.
Now let us take a look at what happens when man falls: : "Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?" "The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."......The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. " ........"Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself." And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"....."therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." (Gen.3:1-5,9-11,23,24).
Satan plants his seed of knowledge of good and evil into the mind – intellect – of two innocent children and in the process all fall: For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. (Rom.5:19), man becomes an adult with power independent of God, hence God drives him out of the garden and departs, leaving man as an orphan.
But our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ promises us that if we will once again reduce ourselves to the state that Adam and Eve were in as innocent children in the garden that God planted, he will bring us out of the bondage of that orphanage of death into the freedom of life again: "So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." (Jn.8:31-32). For this to come about we must be Born Again by completely divesting ourselves of every vestige of Satan's seed from our mind, which means we must drive Satan's seed - INTELLECT - out into the wilderness and allow the HOLY SPIRIT of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in to take His rightful place in our hearts.
So remove all preconceived ideas and values and start from scratch again, the Lord is at the door waiting: "'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' (Rev.3:20-22). Please open that door.
Love
Roy (UK)
Too bad, Roy, that most of the world likes to open the door and look in.
Not many actually walk through to the other side.
QuoteToo bad, Roy, that most of the world likes to open the door and look in.
Not many actually walk through to the other side.
Dear Beloved Servant
Your sarcasm is truly misplaced here brother, this is God's Word we are discussing, remember, and all that is being quoted is God's Word so you're actually making jest at His Word. Be careful brother, you're on dangerous ground. Confine your sarcasm to matters of the world NOT God's realm.
Love
Roy (UK)
Dude,
I was not being sarcastic.
QuoteDude,
I was not being sarcastic.
Dear Beloved Servant.
Forgive my ignorance, but I do not know what Dude means. I pray it is not an abusive expression.
I am not a highly educated person. I do not possess any degrees. With an elementary junior school certificate as my credential I stand just two places away from total iliteracy which is in keeping with my Lord Jesus Christ, most of His chosen Apostles and the author of some of the Scriptures we pin our faith on - Paul. In the case of our Lord: "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things? " (Matt.13:55). In the case of His Apostles: "Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus." (Acts 4:13). In the case of Paul a highly educated man reduced to 0 level and taught afresh, contrary to all his previous education, what we read of him in the Scriptures today: For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." ( Gal.1:11).
When I refer back to some of my posts it frightens me. Because if you were to meet me in person you would not credit such to be of my doing. So I ask if not my doing then whose? All I know is that before I sit down to answer the mail I receive, I pray that the Lord will do His will and let my finger deliver His message through the key board.
But Why I am disclosing these personal details I don't know. But what I do know is, that He is doing it for a purpose, that is all. God bless.
Love
Roy (UK)
Dear Roy, again, I simply meant what I said.
That many stand at the door and look in.
Few choose to follow on to know the Lord.
Oh! it just dawned on me while typing this.
My statement, sir, was not directed at you.
It was simply an observation of the ages.
Quotewhich means we must drive Satan's seed - INTELLECT - out into the wilderness
You are presuming satan's seed to be intellect?
Intellect does not equal satan's seed. Intellect is not our enemy; our enemy is the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. It is these that twist the intellect to serve its desires.
That was precious Sarah,
The same 3 things that caused the fall of man,
are the same 3 things that led to his redemption.
Quote from: Roy Monis on June 14, 2009, 05:41:04 PM
Satan plants his seed of knowledge of good and evil into the mind – intellect
QuoteFor this to come about we must be Born Again by completely divesting ourselves of every vestige of Satan's seed from our mind, which means we must drive Satan's seed - INTELLECT - out into the wilderness and allow the HOLY SPIRIT of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in to take His rightful place in our hearts.
Gn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for the eon!
QuoteDear Roy, again, I simply meant what I said.
That many stand at the door and look in.
Few choose to follow on to know the Lord.
Oh! it just dawned on me while typing this.
My statement, sir, was not directed at you.
It was simply an observation of the ages.
Dear Beloved Servant
I see now what you mean, my brother, and forgive me for misreading your intent. It is I who owe you an apology and I unreservedly offer it to you now in brotherly love. "Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2Pet.1:5-8). So please read my latest posting to sister Rosered as it involves you and brothers Cardinal and reFORMer.
Love
Roy (UK)
No problem Roy.
However, I was quite confused for a spell.
Peace.
QuoteYou are presuming satan's seed to be intellect?
Intellect does not equal satan's seed. Intellect is not our enemy; our enemy is the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. It is these that twist the intellect to serve its desires.
Dear sister Sarah.
You are absolutely right in one respect but I do believe that my postings have been taken in a different way to what I intended. Intellect itself was created by God for man's survival, it is good not bad. Without it man could not rule over what God has placed under his stewardship, in truth he would not be able to progress or even exist without it. So please don't get me wrong.
When I am dealing in matters relating to God, I live with Him in His realm the spiritual and leave the physical to those who want to progress in the physical. In the spiritual realm two seeds were planted into God given man's intellect. One of God and the other of Satan. It is the intellect with Satan's seed planted in it that is the focus of my attention and the one which I am saying must be sent into the wilderness and replaced with the original seed of God, His Holy Spirit.
I believe that we are getting involved in two worlds at the same time and that is not possible because the two are in opposition and enmity to one another: "Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever." (1Jn.2:15-17).
Now I pray let us keep in the spiritual realm of God and continue. It is the seeds that have been planted into the intellect that I make reference to. And as we are discussing God's realm, my focus is on Satan's seed that has been planted into it. It is that intellect and no other that I'm referring to as Satan's seed.
When God walked with man in the garden and planted His seed, the Holy Spirit in him, man had no knowledge of anything other than God. "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." (Gen.2:25).
He had no idea of any such thing as lust of the eyes or of the flesh at that time, he was under the influence of the Holy Spirit that His Creator God had implanted in him. He was as inncent as a child.
Now let us see what happens after the fall. "And He said, 'Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?'" (Gen.3:11). Who was it that told him that he was naked? Was it the Holy Spirit that God had implanted in him or someone else?
Let us read on: "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings." (Gen.3:7).
Why loin covering, sister? What do man's eyes most avidly feast on in their nakedness. Is it not the lust of the eyes and lust of the flesh? So this is where the lust factor comes in. But who has brought it in?
Let us read on: "Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?" The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' " The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen.3:1-6).
Here we uncover that naughty little serpent. They believed his lies, trusting in their newly acquired knowledge of good and evil, and having eaten Satan immediately planted his seed into their heart –intellect. Instead of trusting in their Creator, God, they believed Satan's lie. Thus replacing their original knowledge of their Creator, God's Holy Spirit, with the seed of the liar: "... Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (Jn.8:44)
It is this intellect that controls man's spiritual life, it is this seed of Satan that needs to be driven into the wilderness so that God's seed the Holy Spirit can occupy His rightful place in man's heart. Is it not Satan who is the ruler of this physical world? And does not Intellect which is a part of man belong to the world? So intellect is worldly. Both God and Satan vie for its possession. Who are we going to allow to rule over it? That is the conscious decision we all have to make and decide on the action we have to take.
Presently the ruler of this world is Satan, it is his dominion: to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (Acts.26:18), and all Christianity is under his influence due to man's persistence over the past 2000 years using his spiritual intellect which is Satan's seed, to – STUDY – God's word in an attempt to unseal that which His Almighty God has specifically commanded to be CONCEALED and SEALED. If this isn't Satan's seed at work I don't know what else it could be?
I don't know if he realizes that in doing this he is challenging God's authority and at the same time attempting to usurp our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ's sole right to open and look into the Sealed Book, and in so doing bringing on themselves the notion of worthiness which is another of our Lord's sole rights. But the Lord says: "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." (Jn.12:31). And if the ruler is cast out, who else I wonder will be cast out with him: "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNES." (Matt.7:22-23). Take note, not the FEW but the MANY.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers." (Jn.10:1-5).
"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall."
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. .(Matt.7:24-27).
So you see, my sister in Christ Jesus, it is this intellect which is the seed of Satan.
Love
Roy (UK)
Roy,
How does this verse fit into what your saying?
Gn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for the eon!
QuoteThat was precious Sarah,
The same 3 things that caused the fall of man,
are the same 3 things that led to his redemption.
Dear Beloved Servant
As in my reply to sister Sarah. The Intellect is a gift of God to man and as such is good and beneficial.
But we are talking on two different levels, one spiritual and the other physical. Man's intellect is implanted with two seeds. The Seed of the knowledge of God, which is is Holy Spirit and the seed of Satan which is the knowledge of good and evil. These two seeds are spirital by nature and must be approached as such. Sarah's reasoning is coming through the intellect of the world, that is to say by her
study of the Word of God, which I believe the Spirit is telling me is the seed of Satan. But I in no way wish to deter or discourage you or Sarah or for that matter anyone else on this forum. It was revealed to me by my God and I believe it. It is mine and I am duty bound to share it and in obedience, that is all I am doing: "Then He said to me, "Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them. For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate." (Ezek.3:4-7). Whether you accept it or not is none of my concern, that is God's jurisdiction and I leave that well alone. I am not one of those soul savers: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. (Jn.6:44-45).
We cannot live in two worlds at the same time. One is the physical world which we look at with our physical eyes, the other is the spiritual world which we must look at with spiritual eyes. The two worlds are totally different, one is God's realm and the other Satan's dominion and they cannot live together. So we have to decide whether we want to adapt ourselves to live in God's realm or be satisfied with our present abode in Satan's dominion: "Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever." (1Jn.2:15-17).
For the rest of what I believe the Lord is saying to me on this, please read my missive to sister Sarah.
Love
Roy (UK)
QuoteGn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for the eon
!
Dear Brother Paul
That is Scripture and it is infallible so you are perfectly right in what you see. Man had corrupted himself and God is Perfect He will not tolerate the slightest bit of corruption in His kingdom, that is why he cast man out of the garden and set a cherubin with a flaming sword to guard it, so he wouldn't be able to take of the tree of life and live forever. Because if he had succeeded he would have been like God, and Satan knew this. The trees in the garden are God's property, He planted them. So the two trees of Life and Good and Evil were placed right in the middle of the garden for them to make a choice. One was appealing to the eyes the other was not so enticing. That is why God' said to Adam of every tree you may eat but of the tree of good and evil you must not eat,
(As Sarah would say an assumption which it is, but a faily accurate one I'd say) it was a test to try man just as all the trials of Job were tests to try him. Unfortunately Adam failed the test where Job succeeded. The tree of life was available for man to eat of and live for ever, but again he believed the lie and chose the wrong tree because he saw that it was a delight for the eyes whereas the other didn't look as good: "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen.3:6). Is that not the wisdom that we have now, which God calls fooishness:
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS"; and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." (1Cor.3:19-20).
Love
Roy (UK)
Quote from: Roy Monis on June 16, 2009, 11:46:49 PM
QuoteGn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for the eon
!
Dear Brother Paul
That is Scripture and it is infallible so you are perfectly right in what you see. Man had corrupted himself and God is Perfect He will not tolerate the slightest bit of corruption in His kingdom, that is why he cast man out of the garden and set a cherubin with a flaming sword to guard it, so he wouldn't be able to take of the tree of life and live forever. Because if he had succeeded he would have been like God, and Satan knew this. The trees in the garden are God's property, He planted them. So the two trees of Life and Good and Evil were placed right in the middle of the garden for them to make a choice. One was appealing to the eyes the other was not so enticing. That is why God' said to Adam of every tree you may eat but of the tree of good and evil you must not eat, (As Sarah would say an assumption which it is, but a faily accurate one I'd say) it was a test to try man just as all the trials of Job were tests to try him. Unfortunately Adam failed the test where Job succeeded. The tree of life was available for man to eat of and live for ever, but again he believed the lie and chose the wrong tree because he saw that it was a delight for the eyes whereas the other didn't look as good: "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen.3:6). Is that not the wisdom that we have now, which God calls fooishness:
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS"; and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." (1Cor.3:19-20).
Love
Roy (UK)
Hi Roy, it is possible I am misunderstanding your previous posts, you seem to be saying that the knowledge of good and evil is the intellect that Satan planted into man.
The reason I asked you about that verse is that God is saying that he also has the knowledge of good and evil and related that knowledge in man as being like God. This would seem to be saying that the knowledge of good and evil is not the problem and is not the corrupt seed of Satan that we must rid ourselves of.
QuoteIn the spiritual realm two seeds were planted into God given man's intellect. One of God and the other of Satan.
To me this sending the seed of Satan out into the wilderness that's planted into the spiritual intellect is so confusing. Which of course you'll say,"Your using your satan spiritual intellect so you don't understand."
Don't you think the 'lust of the eye', 'the lust of the flesh', and the 'pride of life' were already present in Adam? No need for satan to plant anything. The serpant just whispered to invoke the carnal nature that already lusted for the pretty tree, the knowledge of good and evil, and the pride of having it. The tree of knowledge of good and evil isn't satan's seed, our carnal nature is. God has the knowledge of good and evil and would you call him satan's seed?
I'm sorry if I'm not understanding you, I'll read this thread in the morning when I'm fresh.
Thanks, Sarah
QuoteHi Roy, it is possible I am misunderstanding your previous posts, you seem to be saying that the knowledge of good and evil is the intellect that Satan planted into man.
Dear brother Paul
Please remember! I am neither a teacher nor a prophet and I have no desire to be one.
I standby what I wrote and I believe that is what the Spirit told me and I will try and clarify why I said it. I believe that the tree of knowledge of good and evil that Adam ate of, died with him before he could reach out and take of the tree of Life.
The tree of Knowledge and the tree of Life are God's own creation. Only God has the knowledge of good and evil and the knowledge of Life, He is Life. We are presently all directing our focus on that Life. That very Life came to us 2000 years ago, but the world was in darkness and could not comprehend it: "In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." (Jn.1:4-5).
But this is drifting away from your question, so let us return to it.
Before I go any further, please allow me to congratulate you for raising that point (well spotted) it shows that you are truly seeking God. Your spiritual eyes are truly opening, brother, keep up the good work. You have drawn my attention to something that had totally escaped me till now, that is the purpose of this forum, I believe, that we help and encourage one another and not pick on petty issues for pure arguments sake. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your help and encouragement.
All through God's Holy History Book (your Bible), if you read it as you would a beautiful love story and not STUDY it, you'll see that God tests man and sets certain obstacles in his path. You can read about it in the Book of Judges;("Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to test Israel by them (that is, all who had not experienced any of the wars of Canaan; only in order that the generations of the sons of Israel might be taught war, those who had not experienced it formerly). These nations are: the five lords of the Philistines and all the Canaanites and the Sidonians and the Hivites who lived in Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal-hermon as far as Lebo-hamath. They were for testing Israel, to find out if they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers through Moses. The sons of Israel lived among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; and they took their daughters for themselves as wives, and gave their own daughters to their sons, and served their gods. The sons of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgot the LORD their God and served the Baals and the Asheroth (Judges3:1-7)
You can read about it in the Book of Job, too long an article for me to reproduce here. In fact you can read about it in every generation from Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Judges, Kings, to the sacking of Jerusalem. The story is the same. God puts man to the test. Sometimes man succeeds and on others he is an abysmal failure and it is then that he cries out to the Lord for help. You have seen it happen for the past 2000 years (the longest in man's history), you can see it happening today and very soon you are going to hear that cry for help, and this time louder than ever before but this time there is going to be no help, only Divine Reptribution.
But in the case of Adam as you have read, before he reached out and took of the Tree of Life, God stepped in and cast him out and placed His cherubim at the entrance with a flaming sword.
So why did God stop Adam from reaching up and taking from the tree of Life? Was it because God was afraid that Adam would become like Him as the father of lies, Satan, told Eve? No! Adam was dead, if he had reached up and taken of the tree of Life he would have condemned himself to eternal death with no hope of recovery. If he had eaten of it that eternal death would be our inheritance today, but through our God's abundant grace, mercy, and love for the world He created, all mankind (living and dead) can hope for reconciliation and eternal Life: "This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1Jn.2:25).
The tree of knowledge that Adam received died with him. Now this is going to be a bone of contention with sister Sarah so before that happens I am going to admit that what follows is an assumption, based on the information we have from all the accounts mentioned above I would hazard a guess and say it is a fairly accurate one. It is not the word of God since He has not made it plain in the way He has in some of the other accounts. I hold by what I said, brother, but I do not know the answer for sure, so accept it or leave it.)
From what I believe the Spirit is saying to me about it, is that God allowed Satan to use it to test Adam and Eve, just as He did in the case of Job. I can visualize Satan saying to God, "Oh yes, as long as there is nothing tempting placed before him to attract his attention, sure he'll obey you! But disclose the contents of the two trees to him and then see the result? To which God replies, "OK go ahead the tree is yours."
Please remember! This is pure conjecture on my part. For the correct answer you must ask the Lord within as I will be doing. He will deliver the true answer and He alone.
The only advice I can offer is to read, read and keep reading, page by page, cover to cover, over and over again and at each re-run you'll be shown more without the asking. In time you will have no reason to read it at all as the Lord will emboss it in your heart. If you don't understand something just ask; not me, not any man, ask the Lord seated within: "These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." (1Jn.2:26-27)
But please don't be tempted to allow your God given gift of –INTELLECT- to STUDY His word which He has specifically commanded to be CLOSED. That is a grave sin of rebellion, a challenge to His authority and an attempt to usurp our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ's sole right. If you do fall for that temptation you will lose all the treasures your God has entrusted you with.
I pray this helps you in some small way.
Love
Roy (UK)
QuoteTo me this sending the seed of Satan out into the wilderness that's planted into the spiritual intellect is so confusing. Which of course you'll say,"Your using your satan spiritual intellect so you don't understand."
Dear sister Sarah
No! I'm not going to say any such thing, that would amount to disouraging you and woe be me if I should cause any of His children to stumble,"And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matt.18:5-6). That warning is good enough for me, sister, so you need have no fear on that score. You are genuinely searching for God, and He knows it so have no fear, He will provide.
I'll try and put it another way. Intellect is good, it is provided by God for a purpose. It is worldly, that is to say it belongs in this world to provide us with the ability to STUDY worldly text books on how to get to the moon and such. There is absolutely nothing wrong in that, it is God's gift for man and he can use it to the best of his ability. But you and I don't want to go to the moon, we're searching for God. But again, and this is a big BUT there is a limit to its potential. If you have a licence to drive a car you cannot use it to fly a 747 Jumbo jet air liner. Now can you? You wouldn't get any passengers for a start. In like manner you cannot use your intellect which is of the world (car), and attempt to decode or interpret the Word of God (747 jet). The two are literally worlds apart. One is spiritual and the other worldly or physical.
And to top that they literally hate one another and cant abide together, "Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever." ((1Jn.2:15-17).
There you can see the lust factor sent grazing in the wilderness, but those who do the will of God, that is, put their trust in Him and not the world, intellect, live for ever. The slogan is "TRUST IN THE LORD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING." (Pro.3:5). The world is at the present time Satan's dominion not God's "....to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the
dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me." (Acts 26:18), so if we try to interfere with God's realm using His enemy's tools then we are in serious trouble: "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNES." (Matt.7:22-23).
And regarding my warped sense of humour about Sarah jumping up and saying that's presuming again. I was only kidding, forgive me if it gave offence.
I pray this helps you, sister.
Love
Roy (UK)
I tend to think the issue of intellect and Gods word is a balance. Don't let intellect get in the way of growth. Don't let intellect cause division.
The context thread is a good one, where intellect seeks to be right it can cause division as the intellect forms an unmovable barrier to decide what it says, and then when that intellectual barrier is set, then the intellect will often take precidence over humbleness and willingness to learn.
Intellect that seeks to grow in spirit will allow defined words to grow beyond their physical intention. We inherantly are intellectual because despite the spiritualist movement that seeks to convince the mind that reality is not real, that is false, we think therefore we are intellectual and no amount of words is going to change that.
If the spiritualists could demonstrate the reality of their doctrines and self help books they would start disappearing from the earth as they achieve the type of higher consciousness they say they have grasped. They all die just like the rest of us.
Intellect that studys to seek growth and unity and spreads love to one another is the balance.
Psalm 119:105
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Don't you think that if we use our intellect in his service, he will direct us in the right paths and make all things known to us?
I think it might be just a problem if we use our intellect in our own service. But, God taught Adam language for a reason.
Isaiah 42:16
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
Thank you for your kind and gentle reply Ray Monis. The scripture you quoted about leaning not your own understanding says it all and I recieve that.
Ahh! Sarah,
spoken as a princess.
QuoteGn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for the eon!
Dear brother Paul
I have a deep respect for the astute and perfectly legitimate points you make.
Messages which I believe are from God, are as clear as the sun on a cloudless day when they come, but to transfer them into words is the most difficult task in the world. In all languages the use of words can cause endless confusion, more so when Satan is ever ready to pounce. But with God's help I will try to convey what I'm trying to say to you with the minimum of confusion.
Let us start by understanding one point. All things were created by God including Satan: All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (Jn.1:3). I think we can agree on that as it is Scripture.
So with that understood let us continue to the point you raise.
God is GOD, He has no genealogy, no beginning and no ending. "Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually." (Heb.7:3). These are the attributes of God.
But God created Adam, so he had a beginning, therefore Satan lied to him when he said "you will be like God" (Gen.3:5). Inferring that he would be exactly like God. Created things can never be like God Himself with having been created by Him including Satin, as they all have a beginning. Satan knew this but he never let on.
So when God said "Behold the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil." He meant precisely that, nothing else. Man had acquired the knowledge of good and evil which only He, God, had before that. In that respect and that respect only was man like God, in the knowledge of good and evil, nothing else.
Now when God said "Lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." At this point forgive me, brother, for correcting you, there is no mention of
eon in the script, the word is
forever we must keep strictly to the script. What Plato, Socrates and Aristotle have to say on the subject of words has no place in God's realm, "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Gen.3:22). This is where Satan's seed, intellect, comes in and distorts the pure Word of God.
But let us not stop here there is more to this. Why did God cast man out lest he reach and take of the tree of life? Was it because He was afraid that man would become like Him in all respects as the lying Satan suggested or was there another reason. God knew that was not possible, and Satan knew it as well but, as I said, he didn't let on, "That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these." (Isa.45:6-7).
So why did God cast him out? It was because of His abundance of grace, mercy and love for man that He did it, in the knowledge that if man ate of the tree of life he would be sentencing himself to eternal death. The death sentence pronounced on him was redeemable but a sentence of eternal death would have been irretrievable. It is by God's grace that we are here today with a hope of salvation instead of being nonexistent
Does this response adequately answer your quote, Brother, or is there something that I have omitted?
Love
Roy (UK)
QuoteI tend to think the issue of intellect and Gods word is a balance. Don't let intellect get in the way of growth. Don't let intellect cause division
.
Dear Paul
Absolutely and decidedly wrong. God's Word, is what it says it is, God's Word, it does not cause division; if obeyed it unites and cements men together. Who or what has caused all the division; Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Prntecostal, Jehovah Witnessess, Mormons, Moonies and literally hundreds more? Was it God, because that is what the Word of God is? Or was it man probing into God's Word, which He has specifically commanded to be Concealed and Sealed? And what prey was he using to perform this diabolical task, was it not Satan's seed which he planted in man's intellect in the garden of Eden replacing the seed of God, the Holy Spirit?
You are still thinking worldly, brother. You have not as yet answered His call, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. Therefore,
COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN." (2Cor.6:16-17). Their midst means all those disobedient ones who challege His authority and try with Satan's seed to unlock what He has commanded to be closed. The world believes the lie and thinks it means some particular group or division.
This is I, man speaking and delivering a general message, to His hungry children in the making. Don't accept my word because I am a mere man. If you're truly hungry, try putting your intellect in the dust bin for a short time and humbling yourself on your knees and crying out to God for the answers. Instead of racking your brains studying the Bible to find them. It won't work, unless you're prepared to accept Satan's lies. "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2Thess.2:3-14). Your intellect will come to no harm in the bin, you will be able to retrieve it again when you return to the world and use it for what it was intended, your progress in the world but not in God's. Keep them separate.
The message I am delivering is mine, I am only sharing it with you. I'm not pushing it on you or trying to persuade you to accept it, the option is yours. I am just sharing as I am commanded to do.
Look at it this way, brother, I have everything to lose by deceiving you or any of his seeking children, and absolutely nothing to gain. So why am I here in the first place? "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matt.18:5-6).
Love
Roy (UK)
QuoteGn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for the eon
Dear brother Paul
I do believe I have mislead you in this as I believe the Lord has corrected me on it, please read my more recent reply to this same question and disregard the one which says that God cast man out of the garden because he had corrupted himself. That is not true and I retract that, it was obviously the seed of the evil one that saw an opening and I fell for it.
Please accept my sincere apology.
Love
Roy (UK).
Roy, I'm gonna take a shot here at this because I really do sense your heart is in the right place, it's just that you're leaning on what your reading more than what God is actually been saying. The division does actually come from God. His word separates spirit from flesh .. .Jesus even stated that he'd come not to bring peace, but division as well. The Word you read, I don't mean to sound offensive, but the truth is, the Bible you embrace is not the inspired word of God. What it is, is a translation of the inspired word . . .the true Word of God is "in" you.
The written word will affirm what the voice of the spiritual Word in you is saying. So long as we truly are letting our spirits take the lead rather than our minds. The mind will stand and point and claim what is right or what is wrong . . .but the spirit simply points to the Son. This has been our problem in the church all along. We reserve the right to pull another brother aside and tell them they're wrong . . .but all we're doing is drawing dividing lines at best, or, we're enforcing conformity and eventual death at worst.
We're not right and we're not wrong, we're simply in different places of maturity in our relationships with the Father. If where I am is elementary to where you are, that doesn't make me wrong, it just makes me juvenile.
I personally believe there is a changing going on in the atmosphere of the church and it's creating spiritual earthquakes in us. I beleive that up to now, the church has built it's belief system from a works-based mentality . . .the reason why I think that is because from Adam to now has been roughly 6,000 years, or 6 days . . .God labored for six and rested "in" the seventh. Six days have literally passed and now, the message of the Sabbath is surfacing, replacing the message of the church.
Everything being loosed upon us now, is no longer from a laboring mind, but it's from the realm of the Rest of God . . .it's not coming through much study and deep concentration, it's coming through revelation from the Father because fo our intimacy with the Son. This, I believe is why we're advised to hold on to things "loosely". Because the days change in us and as they day changes from labor to rest, the rules of engagment change along with it. What we learned to get us to where we are, are wonderful things to learn, but in order for us to enter into the truth in the Kingdom, we need to let go of those things because as great as they were, their source, for the most part, was birthed in days of labor, not rest.
So as great as the story is that you're sharing, it's a story from a day of laboring minds, the peace is in the Sabbath story . . .where the emphasis is no longer on "doing" works of light to project your relationship with the Father to others, but it's simply on "being" light . . .letting the light that's in you simply manifest through you . . .no works required anymore.
Zechariah 4 is a perfect example of this very thing.
Just my perspective of course, you have the ability to accept or reject it . . .just sharing what I see is all.
Quote from: Roy Monis on June 18, 2009, 10:33:48 PM
QuoteGn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for the eon
Dear brother Paul
I do believe I have mislead you in this as I believe the Lord has corrected me on it, please read my more recent reply to this same question and disregard the one which says that God cast man out of the garden because he had corrupted himself. That is not true and I retract that, it was obviously the seed of the evil one that saw an opening and I fell for it.
Please accept my sincere apology.
Love
Roy (UK).
Roy, I appreciate your heart and I accept your apology, just know that I honestly never felt you needed to apologize in the first place.
I read Nathans reply before I read your and for the most part I agree with him. Iron sharpening Iron is what is happening here not something we need to apologize for. It's not about right or wrong when it comes down to it.
In fact I would suggest that the biblical warning to go to a brother and correct him is more about sharing with one another so that can be exposed through the spirit rather than I as a person making the declaration that someone else is wrong.
If I believe I am right and you are wrong, what happens if I have only convinced myself of that and it is the other way around. Well, coming to each other in the spirit of sharing will uncover that in love, not accusation. That rubs across and takes off a little dullness from each person at each pass.
QuotePsalm 119:105
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Dear sister Molly
Sorry it's taken so long to reply, but my internet server was down for quite some time and I haven't been able to get on the net. But by God's grace I'm here to respond.
First let me thank you for your kind encouragement.
Indeed the Word of God is a lamp unto the feet of all mankind and a light to their paths but sadly they do not comprehend it. Without it we who believe would be in complete darkness as the world is at present, and we thank God for His bountiful grace and mercy for the small ray of light that is breaking through.
Your responses are short but very insightful and thought provoking, I will try with God's help to deal with each of the two observations you make in turn.
I am human and fallible and have made some grave errors in some of my postings which I wish I could remove as they can mislead and be stumbling blocks. If you know of any method I can use to achieve this I would be very grateful. Now back to your post.
Quote"Don't you think that if we use our intellect in His service, He will direct us to the right paths and make all things known to us"
Dear sister, I don't only think but am certain that if we use our intellect in His service He will disclose all to us, "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him! In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Matt.7:7-12).
But, understandably, there is a condition. You must ask through the right agency. There are two agents, seeds, planted in man's intellect as we saw in earlier postings dealing with the garden of Eden. There is God's seed, and there is Satan's seed. They are both plying for possession of our intellect. At the present time this is Satan's domain and Satan's seed is the occupant of that intellect. Now if we use our intellect with that seed in it, to ask for His favour it is hardly likely to be granted, , " 'A son honors his father, and a servant his master. Then if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?' says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, 'How have we despised Your name?' "You are presenting defiled food upon My altar. But you say, 'How have we defiled You?' In that you say, 'The table of the LORD is to be despised.' "But when you present the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you present the lame and sick, is it not evil? Why not offer it to your governor? Would he be pleased with you? Or would he receive you kindly?" says the LORD of hosts. "But now will you not entreat God's favor, that He may be gracious to us? With such an offering on your part, will He receive any of you kindly?" says the LORD of hosts." (Mal.":6-9).
If we want Him to grant our hearts desire, we must in all humility seek for Him, by answering the door to His knock, 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."(Rev.3:20), and allow Him in, then in the secrecy of your inner chamber, ask of Him and He WILL grant all, I guarantee that "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. (Matt.6:6).
QuoteI think it might be just a problem if we use our intellect in our own service. But, God taught Adam language for a reason.Isaiah 42:16
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. Isaiah 42:16
That is God's word, it is sacred, it is infallible. God will certainly keep His word, a few chapters down we read, "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; it will not return to Me empty, (Isa.55:11).
The world uses the intellect solely for its own purpose, sister, but you, I and all our fellow brothers and sisters on this forum are not of this world, we are in it but not of it, we are of God. "They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jn.4:5-6).
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also." (Jn.15:18-20).
This is pure conjecture. I believe God gave man language so he could communicate with his fellow man and help him as we are trying to do right here. In the case of His children, I would suggest that He is using us as instruments, on His behalf, to lead the spiritually blind in paths they did not know of; to help bring light where there was darkness, to help straighten out those who were crooked (going wrong). Are these not the things that we are presently doing with His Seed in control?
We can use intellect in our own service for sure, that is what our gracious God has given it to us for, but there is a limit, it must be used with discretion. We must follow the example of all God's children down the generations especially that set by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Himself. I can do nothing
on My own initiative . As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." ( Jn.5:30) If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come
on My own initiative , but He sent Me." (Jn.8:42) For I did not speak
on My own initiative , but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." (Jn.12:49-50). Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak
on My own initiative , but the Father abiding in Me does His works" (Jn.14:10) "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak
on My own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (Jn.16:13).
Jesus trusted His Father implicitly, we would do well to follow suit, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and do not lean on your own understanding" (Pro.3:5).
Ingratitude is rife in man. Most often when their request has been granted they forget even to say thank you before shutting the door again. We must allow the Spirit to come into our intellect, throw Satan's seed out, always give thanks and keep that door securely shut all the time. This is how our Lord in the form and nature of a mere man overcame His enemy. He constantly did the will of His Father and shut Satan completely out with the famous words "Get thee behind Me Satan." "...It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.' (Matt.4:4)
If we can discern the difference between the Intellect of the world with Satan's seed in occupation and God's Holy Spirit outside our door, then we can exchange the Seed outside with the seed within, and leave Satan outside to do the knocking. For worldly matters we can very easily step outside, lock the door behind us, and attend to our worldly matters which will suffer no harm for the duration we are engaged with the Lord. When we have done with the world we can re-enter the safety of what is now God's domain and no longer that of Satan.
This sister is how and when we can use our intellect in service of the Lord to its maximum potential. We only have one God provided intellect, but sadly with two plying for possession. One good, one bad. The bad is in occupation so we must dislodge it and replace it with the good, and the Lord our God will help us to do that if we ask in a proper manner and with the correct Seed firmly within.
God bless you sister for your astute response as usual. I pray this will be of some help.
Love
Roy (UK)
QuoteIn fact I would suggest that the biblical warning to go to a brother and correct him is more about sharing with one another so that can be exposed through the spirit rather than I as a person making the declaration that someone else is wrong.
If I believe I am right and you are wrong, what happens if I have only convinced myself of that and it is the other way around. Well, coming to each other in the spirit of sharing will uncover that in love, not accusation. That rubs across and takes off a little dullness from each person at each pass
Dear brother Paul
Thank you for your gracious response. I apologize for my reply being such a long one. I hope you do me the honour to read it fully and respond in like manner.
I agree with everything that you and Nathan have to say, and I have the deepest respect for your opinions (I will reply to Nathan's response later), but I'm afraid the whole discussion has got terribly mixed up. My previous topic "Dan.12:4" appeared to go astray so I opened this new thread with the intention of looking at it from a different perspective, "Through the eyes of a child. Gen.2:25)"
As I have said earlier an old man's dream is as clear as the sun in a bright cloudless sky, when it comes; but when it comes to sharing it, as we are commanded to do, man makes a mess of it. I have agonized over your postings and tried to explain, but on every occasion, seemingly, made a mess of it. A clear example of, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25)
All things are of God. All wisdom, intellect, creation, all knowledge including that of good and evil, you and I, all belong to God and are of Him. Nothing exists outside of God. He commands and insists that He be obeyed. End of story.
My use of the word intellect earlier has caused confusion, as can be seen in sister Sarah's post. It wasn't intended to be taken in the light it was taken in. So I cried out to the Lord and asked why He is giving me all this and not supplying the means to deliver it, and this I believe is His reply. It is in the form of an analogy.
Adam and Eve were created as innocent as new born babes, and God's free gift of intellect was planted in them with the knowledge of God, and God only. They were naked and unashamed. They had no knowledge of lust of the flesh or lust of the eyes or any other form of lust, they were innocent. "And the man and his wife were both naked and were notashamed." (Gen.2:25). God gave them licence to eat of any of the numerous trees in the garden that they desired, but commanded them to leave one particular tree, the one containing the knowledge of good and evil, well alone. "The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."(Gen.2:16-17).
Now let us transfer this into the 21st century
Man is in the 21st century garden of Eden and God commands him saying, "From any book in the world's libraries you may study but from the Book that is in the middle of the garden, the Word of God which is closed by My specific command you may not study or you will surely die." (analogy only).
Back to Adam's Eden.
But Satan says; now there's a thing, did God really say that and you believe Him? Don't believe that lie, you shall not die, in fact you will become like Him and know everything. You will be like Him and put Him out of business. That's what He is afraid of. Go ahead and eat and I'll prove it to you. And so man ate and brought death upon himself. "Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?" The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' " The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen.3:1-6)
Then man's eyes were opened and they realized that they were naked and could see all the goodies that lay in their loin area and they began to lust for the flesh that their eyes could see. And they became ashamed and covered those offensive parts with fig leaves. "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."." (Gen.3:7-10).
Now back to the 21st century garden of Eden.
Intellect belongs to God, given to man as a gift to be used for his survival and progress in matters of the world that He, God, has created for him. He can use it for whatever purpose he desires. It is good, it is very good, with it man can explore the depths of the sea, map the contours of the earth, walk on the moon, spread news round the world within seconds, clone sheep, send probes to distant planets, explore space itself. Oh yes! Man can do wonders with that intellect that God has so generously given him, It is good and we are grateful that God has been so gracious.
But man is not satisfied, he has become greedy and he wants more. So his mind goes to that forbidden Book. Why has God forbidden me from looking into it? What is in that Book that God does not want me to see? Is He afraid that if I find out I will become like Him and throw Him out as unwanted garbage? So let me use my powerful intellect that has so successfully got me to the moon to find out.
For two thousand years now, man has been living with the biggest blunder of his entire existence. He has ignored the example set by those he professes to follow. The Apostles were untrained and illiterate so they couldn't read much less
study the Scriptures. Paul a highly educated man in the Jewish religion was reduced to the intellect of a child within a few seconds, and never
studied or consulted with any man to get his knowledge of God, yet we are accepting his writings today as the Word of God. Why? Jesus was illiterate yet He didn't
study any Scriptures, but got all His knowledge from His Father by being obedient to His will. Why has man suddenly decided that it is necessary for him to probe in forbidden areas by
studying the Scriptures?
These are the questions that weigh heavily on my mind and need answers and God is providing them for me and commanding that I share them. That is why I am on this site and on this board in the first place, to share all good things with you all. See if you can give me any answers contrary to those that I am receiving.
That's what
studying the Scriptures does. Satan's seed in it concentrates one's mind on areas of the Word of God which are of little import and diverts it from the most important one of rebellion
- ITSELF. It is a ploy in keeping with Satan himself. "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2Thess.2:3-14).
A
few are not deceived and wisely decide to
obey and leave the idea of
studying God's Word alone, respecting what is His sole prerogative. But the
many who are not satisfied continue to
disobey and probe. Thereby challenging His Divine authority and trying to usurp His only begotten Son's sole right to worthiness and the key to unlock what He has commanded to be
closed. "And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is
worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the
Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." (Rev.5:2-5). Do you know any one with in your vicinity or for that matter anywhere in the world with those credentials, brother, I doubt it very much. Nothing short of Blatant rebellion!
! "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNES." (Matt.7:22-23)
He is at the door, Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." (Rev.3:20).
He who has ears to hear,"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock...Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall." (Matt.7:24-27).
Love
Roy (UK)
QuoteRoy, I'm gonna take a shot here at this because I really do sense your heart is in the right place, it's just that you're leaning on what your reading more than what God is actually been saying. The division does actually come from God. His word separates spirit from flesh .. .Jesus even stated that he'd come not to bring peace, but division as well. The Word you read, I don't mean to sound offensive, but the truth is, the Bible you embrace is not the inspired word of God. What it is, is a translation of the inspired word . . .the true Word of God is "in" you.
.
Dear brother Nathan
I am not offended, you rightly correct me in what you believe, and I appreciate what you are saying. But the Word of God I am reading does not appear to agree,
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2Tim.3:16-17). And, But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but
men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God " (2Pet.1:20-21).
Be that as it may, brother, but what you are saying is not what I am on about in this thread. Your post is steering the discussion toward the finer spiritual points of Scripture and away from what I see as the main culprit – Satan – whose seed,
study of the Word of God is presently occupying the spiritual aspect of man's intellect. My prime purpose here is to warn my brethren of the mortal danger of allowing Satan's seed presently occupying the intellect from using it as a recruiting agent against God. Going off at a tangent is only playing into Satan's hand, if you follow what I mean.
If they are receiving the word as you say, ".it's not coming through much study and deep concentration, it's coming through revelation from the Father because fo our intimacy with the Son." Then I fully agree with you and direct my attention to those who don't receive it that way and try it through the medium of their intellectual power by
studying God's Word. The only reservation I'd have to that statement would be in the use of the word
study, my preference would be
searching, and leave the word study, which is not a word used in Scripture except in the error ridden version of the KJV, out completely.
I am in full agreement with you and brother Paul on the deeper aspects of our spirituality, but my focus here is my neighbour's welfare in love. That is the message this thread was intended to convey and nothing else. Just a danger warning, as it were (Daniel 12:4) and nothing else. And this I believe is why we have been at cross purposes.
Your whole post, along with brother Paul's, is a joy to read, and I agree with practically all of it. I agree that the Word causes division; those who accept and those who don't. But I'm not on about that. The division I'm referring to involves those who have accepted His Word, the believers. The cause of this particular division among believers is what I call Satan's seed
– study – of the Word of God. This applies only to believers. Talking about the message of the Sabbath and labouring minds is going into the finer details of the spiritual. This approach is a worthy one for sharing and I am thankful to the pair of you for sharing it as it edifies the individual, though it is a very self based one. But from my perspective that is exactly what I believe Satan wants us to do, while he rakes in the harvest from a much larger field. "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13:11-13). I don't mean any offense in this it is not personal; when I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child and reasoned like a child. I was innocent and could not see beyond my immediate perspective, self. But now that I have grown up, LOVE takes precedence over all my childishness and extends to my brethren further a field. And it is them that I wish to alert to the grave danger of applying the power of the intellect to
study His Word which has been closed by Almighty God's specific command.
Love
Roy (UK)
Quote from: Roy Monis on June 21, 2009, 06:38:55 PM
... "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2Tim.3:16-17). And, But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God " (2Pet.1:20-21).
Amen. "Forever, O LORD, Your word [LOGOS] is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89
Logos; the given, written Word of God.
I am not offended, you rightly correct me in what you believe, and I appreciate what you are saying. But the Word of God I am reading does not appear to agree, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2Tim.3:16-17). And, But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God " (2Pet.1:20-21).
While I appreciate your attempt to agree with me, it appears that you're accepting and rejecting at the same time. You're not seeing what I'm saying here . . .I am fully aware of what the passage is saying, my issue is how it's being applied. Scripture is inspired, I don't deny that at all . . .my issue is in two forms . .one, the translation is not inspired, only the Scripture . .and secondly, the interpretation isn't always inspired either. I have no issue with Scripture being inspired bro, my issue is when we take a spiritual truth, which for me is ALL of Scripture, and we interpret it with our traducing (definition for devil) minds.
And by your further explanation, it does appear that you and I are saying the same things . . . you seem to say that if one relies soley on their knowledge of Scripture through their personal studying of the Word, they can easily be beguiled . ..in which case I would also totally agree with you. But your comments that state . . .
This approach is a worthy one for sharing and I am thankful to the pair of you for sharing it as it edifies the individual, though it is a very self based one. But from my perspective that is exactly what I believe Satan wants us to do, while he rakes in the harvest from a much larger field. "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13:11-13).
Again, you compliment me while trying to dismantle what I said at the same time . . . Why would you assume this is a self-based approach? Like any other message, the reason it's shared out is so that it can be seen by others. We bring each other into maturity through the inspriation of the Holy Spirit in our lives and relationships with the Father and one another. If it can't be seen, or is simply rejected, I'm absolutely fine with it. But as far as I'm concerned, the Father is drawing us all into a higher, more intimate relationship with him and with that comes a deeper understanding, a greater desire for truth over personal doctrines, and a willingness to accept the fact that what I've learned was necessary to get me to where I am, but possibly not so necessary to carry me into where I have yet to go. Seeing things from a Sabbath Day perspective is so much different than what I once learned through the days of labor mentality.
For me, the passage you quoted is also about spiritual maturity. For those who embrace the literal understanding, apply only the moral values and continue to struggle and reject the spiritual (inward) patterns that lie beneath the surface of the written word are not "wrong" as much as they are simply in a different level of maturity in their relationship with Christ. When I was spiritually younger, my language was all about ministarial activities. The laborings of the church, the necessity and emphasis on the gifts, the works-based, warfare-thinking mind . . .all of that, as far as I'm concerned is where 'when I was a child, I spoke as a child" comes into play.
To "warn" another of their activity in their relationship is focusing on one's personal laboring to maintain the relationship. But instead, if our message is to simply encourage others to pursue Christ and plant our own experiences in our quest for him along the way, like the revelational things we see in Scripture aside from the traditional learnings . . .for me, is much more beneficial than evoking fear through warning about a possible distraction.
Truth be told, the one you are warning us from . . .the devil, Satan . .all of that . .. as far as I'm concerned is us in the first place. Devil = Traducer . . .Satan = Adversary . . .both of these definitions give explanation to the carnal mind of every man. My worst enemy is not some invisible spirit or entity that has hoards of little invisible imps at the ready to attack me at every corner . . .my worst enemy is my own mind. When I subdue that, I become the conquorer Scripture speaks about . .because that battle has already been won . . .and it wasn't by me, it was by the Son.
Personal experience/point of view, yes, self-based? I guess it would have to be if it's a personal experience, but what I'm learning is, this personal experience that I've been going through is very similar to other's that I've come in contact with . . .including this very forum . . .so even though it may be a new thing for you to see, I can't really package it into one ball and call it self-based in the context of how you have implied it to be.
QuoteAmen. "Forever, O LORD, Your word [LOGOS] is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89
Logos; the given, written Word of God.
Dear brother Jabcat
Logos is the written word of God the Holy Scriptures, I agree, but it is not the Word. The Word is God, the only begotten Son of God, the begotten God, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is Christ in the flesh. There is a difference. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.....No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him./color] (Jn.1:1-3, 18)
Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
Dear Brother Roy,
Hello. First of all, I think you have a very deep respect for scripture. Secondly, I don't disagree that Jesus is the Word. I do agree. He is the Word become flesh. However, as I understand it, the Word becoming flesh does not negate or replace the Word expressed as pneuma or the Word as logos. Again, IMO, the scripture Psalm 119:89 bears that out...Your WORD/LOGOS is settled in the heavens. Scripture itself calls itself THE WORD, the written logos, and I don't think scripture would declare that if it weren't true. In my opinion, they go together rather than exclude each other.
Right now (maybe God will show me different later) I believe many now saying the logos is not God's Word is a deception to get people to minimize the authority of scripture. Not saying everyone uses it that way (I DON'T BELIEVE YOU DO...THE SPIRIT AND CONTENT OF YOUR POSTS SUGGEST OTHERWISE) but IMO, many do. They will say "well Jesus is the Word, we can do without the Bible...it's not really inspired or accurate anyway". Seen it too many times, and again IMO, many of those folks end up teaching doctrines that a student of scripture can see are in direct opposition to the logos. But somehow they've "felt it, it feels right to their spirit or just makes sense to the intellect". Shoot, I do it often, and often in error. I also realize I misinterpret the meaning sometimes. So summarily, I am one that believes the Spirit is crucial. But I also want to know "what saith the Lord". And while I'm at it :bigGrin:, I also don't believe the Spirit will lead anyone into ANYTHING that is against the logos. They will be an exact witness to each other.
I know all don't agree, and that's between them and God. I realize I'm not right about everything, God will show me more day by day, but that's my :2c: at this moment :thumbsup:.
Quote from: jabcat on June 22, 2009, 10:25:05 PM
I know all don't agree, and that's between them and God. I realize I'm not right about everything, but that's my :2c:.
I hear what your saying James, and not that you have accused me, but I do not need to whisper that God can grant us spiritual truths without reading the bible , I just know it is true.
The problem is when we focus so hard on exactly defining each word in scripture we then get in division rather than seeing a greater depth by joining that division in unity.
Between aionios and now reading a thread where reading a verse out of the CLV constitutes blasphemy, its ridiculous.
Brother Paul, you didn't cross my mind, promise.
I did go ahead and look this up, the "in the beginning was the Word" passage. And "Word" there is logos, defined as; logos log'-os: something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; whatever that all was, that's what was with God according to the Greek. So again, IMO, Jesus being the Word doesn't mean there are no other aspects to the "Word of God".
Heading off Paul, will talk a little more about the rest of your post. Again, though, you were not consciously in my cross-hairs. I'll admit, while I was typing there was a gentleman that crossed my mind, he no longer posts here, hasn't for some time.
Anyway, later, James.
Not a problem James, would not be offended either way, just pointing some things out.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 22, 2009, 10:37:10 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 22, 2009, 10:25:05 PM
I know all don't agree, and that's between them and God. I realize I'm not right about everything, but that's my :2c:.
Between aionios and now reading a thread where reading a verse out of the CLV constitutes blasphemy, its ridiculous.
LOL.
I agree, we are to strive for unity. I also believe we are to contend for sound doctrine. I think we both agree here that the problems can occur because what one thinks is sound doctrine, another thinks is blasphemy (or even "just not quite right"), and vice versa...then "we"
struggle with each other about it. There are many scriptures that indicate we are to study God's written Word...study to show yourself approved; they searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were true, etc. But we are also told to live peaceably with all men, as much as is possible. And that bottom line, the Spirit will lead us into all truth. I just think there's a balance, a healthy mix, a "taking all into account" that is worthwhile. That's why (as well as God convicting me of my failures in that area) I personally believe it's a good thing to state an understanding, show why one believes that way, then let
God reveal, correct, guide, etc.
Thanks Paul, take care, James.
QuoteHello. First of all, I think you have a very deep respect for scripture. Secondly, I don't disagree that Jesus is the Word. I do agree. He is the Word become flesh. However, as I understand it, the Word becoming flesh does not negate or replace the Word expressed as pneuma or the Word as logos. Again, IMO, the scripture Psalm 119:89 bears that out...Your WORD/LOGOS is settled in the heavens. Scripture itself calls itself THE WORD, the written logos, and I don't think scripture would declare that if it weren't true. In my opinion, they go together rather than exclude each other
.
Dear brother jabcat
I agree with everything you say, Scripture for me also is infallible. Psalm 119.89, "Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven." This verse, from what I believe the Lord is saying to me, is confirmation of what the Apostle John says to establish the deity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (Jn.1:1-2).
This is the Person of Christ/Word/the only begotten God/the Son of God, who is settled in the bosom of His Father "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18) There is no mention of Logos here. But the Logos is the written Word which was spoken by inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the prophets of old, this is the Logos which we are reading in the Scriptures today, it is Scripture, it is the Holy Word of God.. This I believe to be the difference between the Word and the written Word/Logos.
QuoteI believe many now saying the logos is not God's Word is a deception to get people to minimize the authority of scripture
If what you believe is correct that does not surprise me in the least because God has blinded the eyes of the MANY with a deluding spirit. He is presently not choosing them. "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2Thess.2:13-14).
QuoteSeen it too many times, and again IMO, many of those folks end up teaching doctrines that a student of scripture can see are in direct opposition to the logos. But somehow they've "felt it, it feels right to their spirit or just makes sense to the intellect". Shoot, I do it often, and often in error. I also realize I misinterpret the meaning sometimes. So summarily, I am one that believes the Spirit is crucial. But I also want to know "what saith the Lord". And while I'm at it , I also don't believe the Spirit will lead anyone into ANYTHING that is against the logos. They will be an exact witness to each other.
To answer this portion of your post I will refer you to a discussion my eyes happened to fall on between you and brother Paul Hazelwood, on 22nd June at 5.10 pm. . "I think we both agree here that the problems can occur because what one thinks is sound doctrine, another thinks is blasphemy (or even "just not quite right"), and vice versa...then "we" struggle with each other about it. There are many scriptures that indicate we are to study God's written Word...study to show yourself approved; they searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were true, etc"
I can't quite determine who the author of those words is, you or Paul, but there in lies the problem. My contention is that the word STUDY as relating to God's Word is, as you put it, blasphemy, because it is a challenge to the Father's authority who specifically commanded the Book to be closed and sealed. That grave error has been compounded by man's futile attempt to claim worthiness and the licence to open what our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has the sole right to do. Theft by the back door sort of thing.
One part of the conversation is correct, the Bereans "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." (Acts 17:11). (Acts 17:11) They searched , they examined etc. but they did not STUDY them. They used the Scripture as we ought to use the Bible as a Holy History Book or a Holy Search Engine, like Google is in the world, but not to Study in order to probe into forbidden ground.
The word
STUDY is an error and does not appear in any Bible other than the most error ridden versions of the KJV. Don't take my word for it, just check the little superscript at the top of the word in the text to prove it for yourself. The correct rendering of that misleading passage is, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth." (2Tim.2:15). There is only one reference to the word study and that is in the Book of Ezra and in it he was deternined to learn the Law which Israel had forgotten in their rottenness, other than that there is no other use of the word in the entire Scriptures. So it is very wrong and misleading to say that there are many references to it.
Information received from the theological cemetery (correction seminary), that is, information received via the intellect with Satan's seed installed is the cause of the confusion that you and Paul are experiencing. Shut Satan and his seed STUDY out and listen to God for a change and you'll see a different picture.
Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
QuoteWhile I appreciate your attempt to agree with me, it appears that you're accepting and rejecting at the same time. You're not seeing what I'm saying here . . .I am fully aware of what the passage is saying, my issue is how it's being applied. Scripture is inspired, I don't deny that at all . . .my issue is in two forms . .one, the translation is not inspired, only the Scripture . .and secondly, the interpretation isn't always inspired either. I have no issue with Scripture being inspired bro, my issue is when we take a spiritual truth, which for me is ALL of Scripture, and we interpret it with our traducing (definition for devil) minds.
Dear brother Nathan
I' beginning to think that you are a minister or some such thing, my brother, and that I have offended you in a number of ways, please forgive me if I have, it was not meant to give offensive. I will answer you quote by quote, but there are so many things that you have found fault with, it's going to take a lot of quotes for me to explain them all.
I am relieved to hear you say that "That all Scripture is the inspired Word of God" because on this one point at least we are of one mind. You say the translation is not inspired, well, do you have a translation that is, and can be verified? I only have, the same as you, the one translation right or wrong, and my implicit trust in the Holy Spirit within me to guide me to the truth. So where you distrust it, I trust it. That is my contention, brother, if we take a spiritual truth and try to interpret it with the carnal mind -intellect - presently in Satan's domain the world, we are certain to receive the answers from his seed within because his seed will naturally support man's challenge to God's authority. But I don't think you agree with me on this issue, which is fair enough. We are not trying to impose our beliefs on one another, just share them and discuss them.
I hope this answers your above quote?
QuoteAnd by your further explanation, it does appear that you and I are saying the same things . . . you seem to say that if one relies soley on their knowledge of Scripture through their personal studying of the Word, they can easily be beguiled . ..in which case I would also totally agree with you. But your comments that state
If one relies on the study of God's Word in any shape or form he WILL be beguiled. The only way to interpret Scripture is through reading, reading and waiting His good pleasure and trusting in him to deliver; "TRUST IN THE LORD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING " (Pro.3:5).
It is the way shown to us by example all through the Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, it is the way shown us by the Apostles, it is the way shown us by the Apostle Paul and it is the way shown us by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Himself. So what further convincing do we need? Do we believe God or do we believe man?
If you go to the theological colleges for your understanding of God's Word, then you will be subjecting yourself to lies from Satan's seed, because they lean on their intellect which is occupied by the seed of the prince of this world - Satan. That seed will teach you how to challenge God through the medium of
studying His Word with his interpretation of it.
If you want to know the truth you must go to the source of all truth - God. And that God is right inside you, all you have to do is open the door and let Him in and drive Satan out. You cannot entertain both in your intellect as the two cannot abide one another. The slightest attempt to study God's Word immediately shuts the Holy Spirit out and lets Satan in. "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT ITS END IS THE WAY OF DEATH." IPro.14:12 & 16:25).
The choice is not up to the individual. I am certainly no soul saver, the Lord does His own choosing and will bring His chosen to Him, Himself. He doesn't need my help or anyone else's as some seem to think, "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. "This I command you, that you love one another." (Jn.15:16-17).
I hope this answers the above quote?
QuoteAnd by your further explanation, it does appear that you and I are saying the same things . . . you seem to say that if one relies soley on their knowledge of Scripture through their personal studying of the Word, they can easily be beguiled . ..in which case I would also totally agree with you. But your comments that state.
If one relies on the study of God's Word in any shape or form he WILL be beguiled. The only way to interpret Scripture is through reading, reading and waiting His good pleasure and trusting in him to deliver; "TRUST IN THE LORD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING " (Pro.3:5). It is the way shown to us by example all through the Scriptures, Old and New Testaments; it is the shown us by Apostles; it is the Apostle shown us by Paul and it is the way shown us by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Himself. So what further convincing do we need? Do we believe God or do we believe man? "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT ITS END IS THE WAY OF DEATH." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25) The choice is not up to the individual. I am certainly no soul saver, the Lord does His own choosing and will bring His chosen to Him, Himself. He doesn't need my help or anyone else's as some seem to think. "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. "This I command you, that you love one another." (Jn.15:16-17).
QuoteSeen it too many times, and again IMO, many of those folks end up teaching doctrines that a student of scripture can see are in direct opposition to the logos
That is the danger in the theological cemeteries they beguile people, they teach Satan's seed of rebellion which is the direct opposite to what the Scriptures say.
At this point I'll give you my experience of this in as few words as possible. I was at a prayer meeting and we were called upon to pray. The procedure was for one to stand and pray aloud. This was the first time my wife and I were faced with this, to us, new and ridiculous procedure, as each one seemed to be waiting for their name to be mentioned, then they would mention that person when their turn came.
This was embarrassing to say the least not to mention unscriptural, and the man in charge was an Elim minister. When my turn came I asked to be excused.
That simple request seemed to ignite a time fuse that burst into what can only be described as wrath and for a moment I thought he was going to hit me with the Holy Book in his hand. "What are you trying to hide? Secrecy is of Satan it is darkness. .." The tirade appeared to be endless but eventually by God's grace he ran out of words, so I humbly said that I was only doing what the Lord was telling me to do and pointed him to, "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you." (Matt.6:5-6)
Once again the building shook and the response shocked me. "Are you trying to teach me? I have spent years at Bible college studying for my qualifications and you trying to teach me? I know what it say in THERE but this is what I have been taught, this is what I believe and this is what I teach." Enough said, it was winter, so I helped my wife into her coat, put mine on and made straight for the door. This is the truth, we finished with churches altogether from that moment.
But that bit of poetic license has taken us away from your topic, so let us return.
QuoteSo summarily, I am one that believes the Spirit is crucial. But I also want to know "what saith the Lord". And while I'm at it , I also don't believe the Spirit will lead anyone into ANYTHING that is against the logos. They will be an exact witness to each other
The Spirit will most certainly not lead anyone against His Word/Logos, I would stake my life on that. So if one feels any prompting in that direction, beware, Satan's on the prowl, for a free meal, waiting to see who he can devour, "Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world." (1Pet.5:8-9)
Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
Quote from: Roy Monis on June 23, 2009, 04:19:55 PM
The word STUDY is an error and does not appear in any Bible other than the most error ridden versions of the KJV.
Hi Roy,
I see what you are saying and do not disagree entirely. The word study is not what we should focus upon, but what is meant by the Greek and Hebrew words that the word study is translated from.
Perhaps, you could explain what you do with the bible if you do not study it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OihvG607W-c&feature=related
Hey Roy . . .
Not sure where you picked up on it at, but you're right, I'm a preacher. But I'm not a "seasoned" one by way of university.
I agree with all of your principles you've shared here . . .perhaps it's just the wording that causes the desire for clarifications.
QuoteThis approach is a worthy one for sharing and I am thankful to the pair of you for sharing it as it edifies the individual, though it is a very self based one. But from my perspective that is exactly what I believe Satan wants us to do, while he rakes in the harvest from a much larger field. "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13:11-13).
Dear brother Nathan
On re-reading the passage you quote, I admit self-based could be the wrong term to use because I'm sure that all who read your post were greatly edified as I was, please accept my apology.
QuoteWe bring each other into maturity through the inspriation of the Holy Spirit in our lives and relationships with the Father and one another
Very true, I agree wholeheartedly with you there. I see it and I practice it, that is my purpose on this forum, to share, as it is yours.
QuoteBut as far as I'm concerned, the Father is drawing us all into a higher, more intimate relationship with him and with that comes a deeper understanding, a greater desire for truth over personal doctrines,
On that I agree wholeheartedly as well, no problem there.
Quoteand a willingness to accept the fact that what I've learned was necessary to get me to where I am, but possibly not so necessary to carry me into where I have yet to go.
Here comes the sticky bit. What have you learned to get you where you are? And where did you get the knowledge you have from? Was it through Bible college or personal study of the Word of God? Or was it by just asking, trusting and waiting on the Spirit to give you the knowledge you have? In short was it a complete trust in God or the word of man in some college or your own intellect? Study of the Word of God will get you nowhere, you will be deceived because he is very good at that.
So if you have derived your knowledge that way, then you are probably in the wrong place and not where you want to be or think you are, "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN BUT ITS END IS THE WAY OF DEATH." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25).
Trust in man could be fatal, "The heart is more deceitful than all else, and is desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jer.17:9). ). "Jehovah looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek after God. They are all gone aside; they are together become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon Jehovah?" (Ps.14:2-4). "Beware of the false prophets,who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits." (Matt.7:15-16). "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." (1Jn.2:18-19)). "These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." (1Jn.2:26-27).
There are dozens of more examples where these come from, brother, they can't all be wrong.
How much did your Bible college tuition cost, brother? It should have cost you nothing other than your keep. But I doubt that this was the case.
Where did the Lord's word on this get lost I wonder? " "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give." (Matt.10:8) Makes you think brother, does it not? God gives all freely to man, while man takes all even from the poor, ever so freely from his fellow man? How many dead have you seen these mentors raise? And why have they not been able to raise them? God alone can raise the dead, Satan can't, there in is your answer.
You talk about Sabbath Day perspective and labour mentality, brother, but I can stake my life on it this is not of a labour mentality. It comes to all in the mature vision of Love, and Love conquers all, the rest are put away as childish toys. This is the area which I believe may be causing some offence, as such, where none was intended. I also believe that it has been taken in the wrong light.
For me, talk of tongues, prophesy, Sabbath Day perspective and labour mentality are things of the past – childrens' toys of the past confined to memory – now I am an adult and I look at things with the eyes of an adult, through the eyes of Love which covers all. I am still a juvenile in that area, but with the faith that I have from childhood and hope, I press on with God's help toward the final goal.
Faith, Hope and Love as the Word of God says. When sister Rose sent me an admonition in the form of a Scriptural verse, "for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God." (Jas.1:20) it immediately struck me to the bone and I knew it was the Spirit convicting me, "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Heb.4:12) so I went through all my posts and found three brothers whom I may have offended and apologized unreservedly. This is how the Spirit works, and from my reading of your post, I believe He has convicted you for some reason of which I am unaware and only you can search for. Search for, not study, brother.
Our ultimate aim is - salvation - and salvation comes through the works of faith, not through empty talk of tongues, prophesy or works of the flesh and such. They were good in their day but when adulthood comes we put away the toys and put on the new self - Love. It is only then that we truly begin to see a larger picture of what truths God wishes to reveal to us. We cannot do it of our own accord regardless of how brilliant we are or how famous the college we studied in. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph.2:8-9. This is not speaking of the works of faith but purely of the flesh. Only God can do it for us in His own good pleasure.
"...seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2Pet.1:13-14).
God says that these are the works of faith that get you where you want to go - salvation, not where you don't want to go. Is it not time to put away all the childish things and start to obey Him by doing the works of faith He requires of us, by putting all lusts of the flesh and of the world aside and concentrating on Him and living in accord to His rules, mentioned above? We don't need to labour over anything, just live a normal life in purity of mind and body.
Please don't read anything wrong into this. It comes in the true Spirit of Love to you as my brother in Christ Jesus.
Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
PS.....I do believe we are seeing the same thing, but travelling to it by different roads, yours through your intellect but mine purely in a complete and utter trust in God. That is the only difference.
Roy, Roy, Roy . . . .why on earth are you supposing I'm embracing intellect over relationship??? My Gosh, I preach and live just the opposite bro! And you also either assume or misunderstand that I've been in some sort of Bible College . . .I have not. What I was refering to about letting go of what got me here is from my religious past. I didn't originally teach and preach from experience, I first would preach what I was taught to preach, not what I expereinced for myself, but what I "learned". And there is "some" (little) benefit to logic and reasoning, but my whole persona now is that we NOT depend on what we know from knowledge, but what we see through revelational relationship with the Father.
Knowledge of the written word leads you to truth, experience in the Living Word ushers that Truth into you. We're saying the same things again.
QuoteI hear what your saying James, and not that you have accused me, but I do not need to whisper that God can grant us spiritual truths without reading the bible , I just know it is true.
The problem is when we focus so hard on exactly defining each word in scripture we then get in division rather than seeing a greater depth by joining that division in unity.
Dear brother Paul
Forgive me for butting in but I have to express how firmly I agree with you. Spiritual truths can come without reading the Bible, but they could not have been there in the first place if you had not read your Bible at some time, so it cannot be ruled out. But what you say is most certainly true and I can vouch for that.
Hard concentration on words and phrases in the Bible I call studying, as it involves the full power of the intellect, and the intellect being of the world is controlled by the ruler of this world, Satan. So the information we get from that source is bound to be flawed, and designed by him to cause division and strife within the body of Christ.
Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
Quotedid go ahead and look this up, the "in the beginning was the Word" passage. And "Word" there is logos, defined as; logos log'-os: something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; whatever that all was, that's what was with God according to the Greek. So again, IMO, Jesus being the Word doesn't mean there are no other aspects to the "Word of God".
Dear brother jabcat
I believe, from your dialogue with brother Paul I gather your name is James, so may I also be granted the privilige to address you as such?
Forgive me for evesdropping on your discussion with brother Paul. That is exactly what I meant in my recent post to you. Jesus Christ is the Word, but the other aspect of the Word is the written or spoken word/Logos. This is the Word spoken by Jehovah who was Christ/Word at the command of His Father.
Love is of God..... Love is God...... This comes to all with love
Roy (UK)
QuoteIf I believe I am right and you are wrong, what happens if I have only convinced myself of that and it is the other way around. Well, coming to each other in the spirit of sharing will uncover that in love, not accusation. That rubs across and takes off a little dullness from each person at each pass
Dear brother Paul
You are quite right, it is all about sharing and that is what you, I and everyone else on this forum is doing - sharing what they believe God is disclosing to them. That is what I'm doing when I reply, I'm not trying to accuse or convince anyone, only God has the right to do that.
The thread is a controversial one and not all will see the point or agree. But when I'm questioned about some aspect of my post I just express my opinion on it. It is up to the individual to please themselves whether they agree or disagree and that is fair enough. I don't argue about it but simply express the way I believe the Spirit is directing me. As long as I believe it is right it matters not what others believe, I'm just sharing. And that is fair enough, don't you think?
Love is of God....... Love is God....... This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
yup, yup, yup.
QuotePerhaps, you could explain what you do with the bible if you do not study it.
Dear brother Paul
I am so pleased you put that question to me.
What do I do with my Bible if I don't
study it?
The honest truth is, I just read it as I would a beautiful romantic novel, because that is what it is to me. It is romance between man and His Creator in keeping with the Song of Solomon. I have read it cover to cover over and over again lierally hunreds of times, and at each reading new light is revealed, now it has become a such part of me that I have little need to read it, but only use it as a Holy Reference Book to ensure that when I quote a Scripture it is exactly as the Word of God says and nothing else.
The Bible to me is a Holy Reference Book and a Holy History Book of ancient and modern times in one. It is NOT a STUDY book to delve into areas that Almighty God has excluded man from by a specific Royal command, "But as for you, Daniel, CONCEAL these words and SEAL UP the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." I humbly obey that command.
That, brother, is what I do with my Bible.
I hope that answers your question?
Love is of God....... Love is God....... This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
QuoteHey Roy . . .
Not sure where you picked up on it at, but you're right, I'm a preacher. But I'm not a "seasoned" one by way of university.
I agree with all of your principles you've shared here . . .perhaps it's just the wording that causes the desire for clarifications.
Dear brother Nathan
Thank you and God bless you.
I was going to say I discerned that you were a preacher, but that would be wrong as discernment is from the Spirit and I don't think this was from that source, so let me say I guessed it.
Please tell me what part of my wording causes confusion and I will, with God's help, try to clarify it for you? I cannot do much if I don't know what I'm required to clarify.
Love is of God....... Love is God....... This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
QuoteKnowledge of the written word leads you to truth, experience in the Living Word ushers that Truth into you. We're saying the same things again.
Dear brother Nathan
That is absolutely true and I agree with it wholeheartedly.
There is only one knowledge and that is the
knowledge of God our Creator. He is the source of all knowledge and wisdom. All things were created by Him and belomg to Him, they are only on loan to us while we are on earth for our survival. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:3). And there is only one truth and He is that truth, and that truth leads to salvation, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (Jn.14:6).
Love is of God....... Love is God....... This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
Hi Roy...everything comes by the spirit of God....and it is only when our spirit is quickened that we understand it ...this is what gives life!!
So when you keep insisting "not to study" or "not to use our intellect"...you are repeatedly trying to MAKE us understand...but only the spirit gives us that at the right time; so my take on it is...give the word, and let it rest where it will rest.
Enjoy the life God has given us!
blessings :icon_king:
QuoteSo as great as the story is that you're sharing, it's a story from a day of laboring minds, the peace is in the Sabbath story . . .where the emphasis is no longer on "doing" works of light to project your relationship with the Father to others, but it's simply on "being" light . . .letting the light that's in you simply manifest through you . . .no works required anymore.
Dear brother Nathan
In order to project a relationship with the Father one must of necessity do the works of faith that the Father demands so that the light within can be manifested through us. Without the works of faith the light is extinguished and all relationship with the Father goes with it. So the works of faith is not the product of a labouring mind, but of peace and tranquillity, the peace and tranquillity that can only come through a close relationship with His Son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful." (Jn.14:27). So it's wrong for you to say that my story is one of a labouring mind and it's very misleading to say that works are no longer required. Faith without the works is dead; "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." (Jas.2:17).
As I've said before and I say it again 2Peter1:3-11 makes this more than abundantly clear. In fact I'd go as far as to say that salvation can only come through this channel, the constant practice of the works of faith toward perfection. With that mindset our relationship with the Son is perfected and He leads us to the Father -Salvation. "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (Jn.14:6).
God bless you
Love is of God....... Love is God....... This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
Let me put it this way . . .I beleive we should live life from the realm of rest, not from a laboring mind. I do believe the mind does play a role, but I think that it's a role submissive to the spirit, not dominant over spiritual matters. The mind has preconceived boundaries and limitations, it doesn't have the ability to comprehend spiritual truth in and of itself. It requires the intervention of the Spirit of God . .but the intervention can only manifest when my mind is in submission to my spirit . . .and even then, "intervention" may be too strong a word. It's simply the order of life. Spirit takes precedence over soul and body . . .if soul supercedes spirit, then the alignment is off and the spiritual flow is stopped as a result. Mind requires knowledge, spirit requires faith.
Faith without works is dead . . .sigh . . . the message there was not to emphasize works only . . .for me, it's saying "I don't do what I do in order to receive faith . . .I do what I do because faith is manifesting through me . . ." Requiring Scriptural proof for one's belief is not faith . . .it's knowledge. Knowledge of Scripture "leads to" faith, but faith doesn't require proof of anything. If it did, it wouldn't be faith.
We've been programmed to focus on the works of others and of ourselves as evidence that faith exists. And by those works, we then judge whether or not the other meets our standard of what a Christian should be. Who am I to judge another? Am I not to work out my own salvation? If by grace I am saved, then what right do I have in pointing my finger and telling another they are right or they are wrong . . .where's the grace in that?
I see Scripture much like a school book . . .the reason a verse can speak so differently to different individuals is due to one's level of maturity of relationship with the Father. A teenager will have a much different understanding than an adult . . .no one is wrong in their renderings, they're just at different places of maturity. And no one should be condemned or looked down upon for their positions in relationship with the Father . . .we don't condemn teenager's for acting and thinking like teenagers . . .we don't say they are wrong for being a teenager, we simply recognize them for what they are. Should they be offended for "being" a teenager? No. And if I am viewed as an adolecent spiritually, then I shouldn't be judged and condemned for it.
I'm sorry you disapprove of my comments, but I've never accused you to be wrong and I'm right, I'm simply commenting on what I see from my point of view. And from my point of view, there are things you've shared that I am in total agreement with, and other things you've shared that still appear to come from a laboring mind . .. Don't let me be an offense to you . . .it's just my observations, nothing more.
QuoteFor me, the passage you quoted is also about spiritual maturity. For those who embrace the literal understanding, apply only the moral values and continue to struggle and reject the spiritual (inward) patterns that lie beneath the surface of the written word are not "wrong" as much as they are simply in a different level of maturity in their relationship with Christ. When I was spiritually younger, my language was all about ministarial activities. The laborings of the church, the necessity and emphasis on the gifts, the works-based, warfare-thinking mind . . .all of that, as far as I'm concerned is where 'when I was a child, I spoke as a child" comes into play.
Dear brother Nathan
I sense, my brother, that I have given cause for some hurt here, it was not intended. I apologize! When Scripture is quoted that's how it can appear. The Spirit convicts without measure.
Let us see what that Scripture is saying; "....bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." 1Cor.13:7-10). These are all spiritual gifts, there is no mention of any physical labour based works of the church, or as you out it, the welfare thinking of the carnal mind. That thinking is of the carnal mind interpreting the spiritual.
It is talking about the greatest gift that man can receive from God - LOVE, which is Himself GOD. He is also talking about the lesser gifts of the Spirit,
prophesy, tongues, knowledge and all other minor gifts in relation to the one major gift of Love; "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" (Jn.3:10-12)
"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. He must increase, but I must decrease. (Jn.14:29-30) Here John the Baptist is saying that when the Bridegroom arrives, all the labouring of the lesser gifts - the friend of the Bridegroom, childish things – must be put aside and decrease, so that when the Bridegroom takes control, He can increase giving of Himself abundantly, that is, spiritual things, to be shared with all. , "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (Jn.14:25-26)
That's how I see that verse brother not as the gifts of a works-based warfare thinking mind. That is the mind of the child. My thinking is based purely and simply on Love.
When that gift comes, then all else ceases to serve any useful purpose. God is supreme, He speaks, we listen and receive His Word, then do His bidding, of which, one is to share and that is what we are all doing right here.
Love is of God....... Love is God....... This comes to all in love
Roy (UK)
QuoteTo "warn" another of their activity in their relationship is focusing on one's personal laboring to maintain the relationship. But instead, if our message is to simply encourage others to pursue Christ and plant our own experiences in our quest for him along the way, like the revelational things we see in Scripture aside from the traditional learnings . . .for me, is much more beneficial than evoking fear through warning about a possible distraction.
Truth be told, the one you are warning us from . . .the devil, Satan . .all of that . .. as far as I'm concerned is us in the first place. Devil = Traducer . . .Satan = Adversary . . .both of these definitions give explanation to the carnal mind of every man. My worst enemy is not some invisible spirit or entity that has hoards of little invisible imps at the ready to attack me at every corner . . .my worst enemy is my own mind. When I subdue that, I become the conquorer Scripture speaks about . .because that battle has already been won . . .and it wasn't by me, it was by the Son.
Dear brother Nathan
You fail to see what I am getting at.
I am not trying to frighten anyone or any such thing, and it is wrong of you to suggest such. What I have received to share is controversial and I don't expect everyone to accept it, but if one carefully examines the facts I've presented they will or should see it.
All that my message is saying is that,
studying the Word of God is wrong, it is blasphemy, it is a direct challenge to Almighty God's authority and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ's sole right to worthiness and the key to open what he (man) is trying to open in opposition to the Father's specific command.
To do such a blasphemous thing is to play into the hands of the Devil, Transducer, Satan, Adversary or whatever else you wish to call him. And if that puts fear into anyone, so be it. If it does cause them concern then the Spirit is convicting them, if it doesn't they will take no notice and continue in their old way. That is no concern of mine, I have said it before and I'll repeat it "I am not one of those crazy soul savers." We are commissioned to spread the message we receive only, just as we are doing here, and not to use our intellect to impose it on anyone else. That is the jurisdiction of the Holy Spirit and He will do the rest Himself without our help, by convicting those He chooses.
The Lord, through mercy and grace has not given me a powerful enough intellect so as to impose my beliefs on anyone else, praise God.
If you have Love, brother, and the peace and tranquillity that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ left us with, then trifling little things like invisible imps and spirit entities won't enter your mind, because God occupies it leaving no room in the inn for them, if you get what I mean? Our Lord says so and I for one believe Him; "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. (Jn.14:27). Is that assurance not good enough for you?
My message comes in love not to spread unnecessary fear, if anyone wants that they must enrol in the hell gang, this is the wrong place.
Love is of God....... Love is God....... This comes to all in love [/move
Roy (UK)
QuoteHi Roy...everything comes by the spirit of God....and it is only when our spirit is quickened that we understand it ...this is what gives life!!
So when you keep insisting "not to study" or "not to use our intellect"...you are repeatedly trying to MAKE us understand...but only the spirit gives us that at the right time; so my take on it is...give the word, and let it rest where it will rest.
Enjoy the life God has given us!
Dear brother onlytruth
I fully appreciate what you are saying and they are very valid points, but let me put it this way.
If that is what you believe I am about, that is up to you. I am not trying to MAKE any one understand my point of view. I am just delivering a message that I sincerely believe I have been given, and I am simply sharing it, as I have been commanded to do; "For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate." (Ezek.3:5-7). Are you trying to tell me that the Spirit wasn't "quickening" (as you put it) people's spirit in Ezekiel's day? I say that Ezekiel's message and insistence was the catalyst provided by God and He knew they would take no notice. When man learns to obey God and not blaspheme, the Spirit WILL quicken, if he doesn't then Satan will as he is presently doing in the world outside.
You use the phrase "constantly insisting not to study" that is true, but only in response to the mail I receive where people use that word - study. The Spirit has told me it is a blasphemy and I simply point that out by quoting; "But as for you, Daniel,
CONCEAL these words and
SEAL UP the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." (Dan.12:4). If you don't believe that Scripture and obey it that is up to you, but don't encourage your fellow brothers and sisters to stumble with messages like that. If you write to me and use that word , I can assure you, you
WILL receive the same, not in anger but in love, because I care.
I have never said not to use your intellect. Intellect is of the world and it is God's gracious provision for man to survive and advance in this world. Intellect is very good, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with using it, I would not be able to do what I am presently doing if I didn't use the small amount of intellect that God has graciously given me, but
NOT to delve into the forbidden ground of His Word. I put it this way to sister Sarah; if you have a licence to drive an automobile
(study Satan's seed ) in Satan's domain you cannot expect to be allowed to fly a 747 Jumbo jet
(God's word) with it, now could you? They are worlds apart, so they should be kept apart. So why is man trying to do the impossible and feed the world with lies because that is all he will receive from Satan? But you obviously don't agree, so what is the use of me wasting my time going any further?
Love is of God....... Love is God....... This comes to all in love [/move
Roy (UK)
QuoteLet me put it this way . . .I beleive we should live life from the realm of rest, not from a laboring mind. I do believe the mind does play a role, but I think that it's a role submissive to the spirit, not dominant over spiritual matters. The mind has preconceived boundaries and limitations, it doesn't have the ability to comprehend spiritual truth in and of itself . It requires the intervention of the Spirit of God . .but the intervention can only manifest when my mind is in submission to my spirit . . .and even then, "intervention" may be too strong a word. It's simply the order of life. Spirit takes precedence over soul and body . . .if soul supercedes spirit, then the alignment is off and the spiritual flow is stopped as a result. Mind requires knowledge, spirit requires faith
Dear brother Nathan
What do you suppose this thread "Through The Eyes Of A Child." is all about, if not directed at man's preconceived ideas and values. It is these ideas and values that need removing and a new start being made, that is, being Born Again in its true spiritual sense.
Please read this about your ancestor, Moses, whose intimacy with the Spirit of God was greater than anything you or I could ever hope to achieve, and learn true Humility, Obedience and Submission to God's will, and not just what's in your head.
Moses had a higher intellect than any of his day or ours. Being brought up in Pharaoh's palace as the adopted son of his daughter he received the best education in the religion and culture of the most advanced nation in the world of that time. In addition to this, he received the finest education in the religion and culture of his natural heritage Hebrew from his mother who was appointed as his nursemaid.
This man, using his own understanding, thought he was being called by God to help his brethren who were being ill-treated, so he killed one to prove the point. But this action only brought upon him the scorn of his people and the wrath of his adoptive father Pharaoh. As a consequence in fear for his life he fled to the wilderness and tended his father-in-laws flock for the next forty years.
It was then that God, not he, who decided to do something about His nation's plight and called him. The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up." When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Then He said, "Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground." He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. The Lord said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings." (Ex.3:2-7).
"Remove your sandals from your feet." The mighty Moses, regardless of his high intellect and worldly knowledge, was being taught the first of four lessons in the religion and culture of His God;
HUMILITY AND OBEDIENCE Ask yourself, what does man carry in his sandals other than the physical body? Is not his intellect with all its preconceived ideas and values a part of him?
Then came the shock; "Therefore, come now, and I will send you to Pharaoh, so that you may bring My people, the sons of Israel, out of Egypt." But Moses said to God, "Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?" (Ex.3:10-11). Moses tried every trick in the book to get out of this dangerous task;
Moses' Plea ...But Pharaoh wants to kill me!
God's Answer ...That's true, but that Pharaoh is dead, this a new Pharaoh.
Moses' Plea ......The people don't trust me they won't listen!
God's Answer......That is true, but there again this is a new generation, they don't know you. Just say to them that, I AM, has sent you for that is My name, and use this sign which I give you as proof.
.
Moses'Plea .....But, Lord, I stutter and stammer and they won't understand what I am saying to them, neither will Pharaoh!
God's Answer That also is true, but there is nothing wrong with your brother Aaron's voice, now is there? He can be your voice.
Moses ran out of excuses and gave up. He was being taught his third lesson in the religion and culture of his God;
COMPLETE SUBMISSION TO HIS FATHER'S WILL. . Well this is what God was requiring him to do, divest himself of all his preconceived ideas and values - and he had more of those than you and I put together - and start afresh with Him.
Be Born Again. I feel it is time for you to do the same, brother. IMO
All summed up in a singe phrase; "TRUST IN THE LORD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART, AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING " (Pro.3:5).
But the Lord had not finished with Moses, he had to be taught yet one more vital lesson; The Lord spoke to Moses that very same day, saying, "Go up to this mountain of the Abarim, Mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab opposite Jericho, and look at the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the sons of Israel for a possession. Then die on the mountain where you ascend, and be gathered to your people, as Aaron your brother died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people, because you broke faith with Me in the midst of the sons of Israel at the waters of Meribah-kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin, because you did not treat Me as holy in the midst of the sons of Israel. "For you shall see the land at a distance, but you shall not go there, into the land which I am giving the sons of Israel." (Deut.32:48-52).
Moses had now learned the last lesson in the religion and culture of God's kingdom, the result of
DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD'S COMMAND.All summed up in a single phrase; "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT ITS END IS THE WAY OF DEATH." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25)
But I ask you, Why am I quoting Scripture when Nathan only believes in what is in his head and relies on his own understanding. Brother with every post I have sent you I have gone to lengths to back what I am saying with the appropriate Scripture, but when I look at your replies I see no Scriptural quotes only Nathan and what Nathan thinks. I say this in love and mean no offence, but what we are about here is God's Word and not Nathan's. It has left me wondering as to what preaching, is it about God or what Nathan thinks?
QuoteFaith without works is dead . . .sigh . . . the message there was not to emphasize works only . . .for me, it's saying "I don't do what I do in order to receive faith . . .I do what I do because faith is manifesting through me . . ." Requiring Scriptural proof for one's belief is not faith . . .it's knowledge. Knowledge of Scripture "leads to" faith, but faith doesn't require proof of anything. If it did, it wouldn't be faith
.
This is an extraordinary comment Nathan, especially with the ...sigh. Do you believe God's Word or not. I quoted just a single line of that Scripture, have you taken the trouble to read all that the Apostle James has to say on the subject not to mention the Apostle Peter's verdict on it? I very much doubt it, as your comment are offensive not to me but to the Scriptures.
Please have more respect for God's Word even if you consider it to be an inaccurate translation or interpretation. Most of the popular Bibles render them virtually the same, so I put my trust in God and believe them and not my own understanding of what they might mean. There are too many meanings that can be put into these Scriptures and claimed to be spiritual, but the real Spiritual meaning hits one like a brick, and then you know it is the TRUTH.
QuoteLet me put it this way . . .I beleive we should live life from the realm of rest, not from a laboring mind. I do believe the mind does play a role, but I think that it's a role submissive to the spirit, not dominant over spiritual matters. The mind has preconceived boundaries and limitations, it doesn't have the ability to comprehend spiritual truth in and of itself . It requires the intervention of the Spirit of God . .but the intervention can only manifest when my mind is in submission to my spirit . . .and even
then, "intervention" may be too strong a word. It's simply the order of life. Spirit takes precedence over soul and body . . .if soul supercedes spirit, then the alignment is off and the spiritual flow is stopped as a result. Mind requires knowledge, spirit requires faith
Dear brother Nathan
What do you suppose this thread "Through The Eyes Of A Child." is all about, if not directed at man's preconceived ideas and values. It is these ideas and values that need removing and a new start being made, that is, being Born Again in its true spiritual sense.
Please read this about your ancestor, Moses, whose intimacy with the Spirit of God was greater than anything you or I could ever hope to achieve, and learn true Humility, Obedience and Submission to God's will, and not just what's in your head.
Moses had a higher intellect than any of his day or ours. Being brought up in Pharaoh's palace as the adopted son of his daughter he received the best education in the religion and culture of the most advanced nation in the world of that time. In addition to this, he received the finest education in the religion and culture of his natural heritage Hebrew from his mother who was appointed as his nursemaid.
This man, using his own understanding, thought he was being called by God to help his brethren who were being ill-treated, so he killed one to prove the point. But this action only brought upon him the scorn of his people and the wrath of his adoptive father Pharaoh. As a consequence in fear for his life he fled to the wilderness and tended his father-in-laws flock for the next forty years.
It was then that God, not he, who decided to do something about His nation's plight and called him.
The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up." When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Then He said, "Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground." He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. The Lord said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings." (Ex.3:2-7).
"Remove your sandals from your feet." The mighty Moses, regardless of his high intellect and worldly knowledge, was being taught the first of four lessons in the religion and culture of His God;
HUMILITY AND OBEDIENCE Ask yourself, what does man carry in his sandals other than the physical body? Is not his intellect with all its preconceived ideas and values a part of him?
Then came the shock; "Therefore, come now, and I will send you to Pharaoh, so that you may bring My people, the sons of Israel, out of Egypt." But Moses said to God, "Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?" (Ex.3:10-11). Moses tried every trick in the book to get out of this dangerous task;
Moses' Plea ...But Pharaoh wants to kill me!
God's Answer ...That's true, but that Pharaoh is dead, this a new Pharaoh.
Moses' Plea ......The people don't trust me they won't listen!
God's Answer......That is true, but there again this is a new generation, they don't know you. Just say to them that, I AM, has sent you for that is My name, and use this sign which I give you as proof.
.
Moses'Plea .....But, Lord, I stutter and stammer and they won't understand what I am saying to them, neither will Pharaoh!
God's Answer That also is true, but there is nothing wrong with your brother Aaron's voice, now is there? He can be your voice.
Moses ran out of excuses and gave up. He was being taught his third lesson in the religion and culture of his God;
COMPLETE SUBMISSION TO HIS FATHER'S WILL. . Well this is what God was requiring him to do, divest himself of all his preconceived ideas and values - and he had more of those than you and I put together - and start afresh with Him.
Be Born Again. I feel it is time for you to do the same, brother. IMO
All summed up in a singe phrase; "TRUST IN THE LORD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART, AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING " (Pro.3:5).
But the Lord had not finished with Moses, he had to be taught yet one more vital lesson; The Lord spoke to Moses that very same day, saying, "Go up to this mountain of the Abarim, Mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab opposite Jericho, and look at the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the sons of Israel for a possession. Then die on the mountain where you ascend, and be gathered to your people, as Aaron your brother died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people, because you broke faith with Me in the midst of the sons of Israel at the waters of Meribah-kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin, because you did not treat Me as holy in the midst of the sons of Israel. "For you shall see the land at a distance, but you shall not go there, into the land which I am giving the sons of Israel." (Deut.32:48-52).
Moses had now learned the last lesson in the religion and culture of God's kingdom, the result of
DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD'S COMMAND.All summed up in a single phrase; "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT ITS END IS THE WAY OF DEATH." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25)
But I ask you, Why am I quoting Scripture when Nathan only believes in what is in his head and relies on his own understanding. Brother with every post I have sent you I have gone to lengths to back what I am saying with the appropriate Scripture, but when I look at your replies I see no Scriptural quotes only Nathan and what Nathan thinks. I say this in love and mean no offence, but what we are about here is God's Word and not Nathan's. It has left me wondering as to what you are preaching, brother; is it God's Word or is it what's in Nathan's head and what he thinks it should be?
QuoteFaith without works is dead . . .sigh . . . the message there was not to emphasize works only . . .for me, it's saying "I don't do what I do in order to receive faith . . .I do what I do because faith is manifesting through me . . ." Requiring Scriptural proof for one's belief is not faith . . .it's knowledge. Knowledge of Scripture "leads to" faith, but faith doesn't require proof of anything. If it did, it wouldn't be faith
.
This is an extraordinary comment Nathan, especially with the ...sigh thrown in. Do you believe God's Word or not? I quoted just a single line of that Scripture thinking you'd take the trouble to read all that the Apostle James has to say on the subject not to mention the Apostle Peter's verdict on it? I very much doubt it you have read these two Scriptures, as your comment is an offence, not to me, but to the Scriptures themselves. Please don't let yourself get carried away with ideas of your own imagination.
Please have more respect for God's Word even if you consider it to be an inaccurate translation or interpretation. Most of the popular Bibles render them virtually the same, so I put my trust in God and believe them and not my own understanding of what they might mean. There are too many meanings that can be put into these Scriptures and claimed to be spiritual, but the real Spiritual meaning hits one like a brick, and then you know it is the TRUTH. Your opinion is yours, you stick to it and I'll keep mine, fair enough don't you think?
[move] Love is of God....... Love is God....... This comes to all in love [/move
Roy (UK)