On some boards elsewhere, I had the displeasure of running into two persons. One was a good while back, and he has since then been banned - this elderly gentleman was a hyper-dispensationalist, Paul-only, two-gospels sort of individual. And the other and most recent (over the past few days in fact) is a rather self-righteous Messianic Judaist.
Basically, over the course of a few months I've argued with the two extreme ends of Christendom it seems. "The Gentile Way" only --- "The Jewish Way" only.
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The hyper-dispensationalist, who I shall call Mr. Nineveh for the sake of anonymity was a very rude fellow. I managed to keep my cool with him and probably because it was abundantly clear that he was a half-troll at least. The crucible of his argument was thus;
"If you don't follow Paul, and Paul's commandments then you aren't following Christ - you're rejecting the Bible, you're rejecting Jesus, and <insert bad stuff here>."
And also, according to Mr. Nineveh --- I am in spiritual darkness, don't know how to rightly divide the word, I hate Jesus because I don't follow Paul as my spiritual leader, and because I have long hair, I am not only gay, but in rebellion against God, and godless in spiritual darkness.
Really this is laughable...I'm not gay, and for the rest of it I have no words to express such error on his part. But sufficed to say I faced the extreme end of Biblical legalism on the "Gentile" end. I despised it.
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The Messianic Judaist, whom I shall call Mr. Damascus for the sake of anonymity was not so much rude, as he was "self-righteous, and insistent" and unfortunately he found the edge of Lefein's flaming cherubim blade, though for certain reasons that need clarification. But in essence this man Mr. Damascus seems to be an avid follower of a "Chuck Missler" or who ever this man is - and the crucible of Mr. Damascus' argument was thus;
"If you don't keep the Torah, the Mosaic Law, the feasts, the Saturday sabbath, and "The Jewish Way" (as I termed it) exclusively - you're rejecting the Bible, you're rejecting Jesus, and <insert bad stuff here>."
With the additional provisions of;
"Jesus' name is Yahshua." (implication that it is somehow disrespectful or profane to call him Jesus, Iesous, Iesu, or the Greek, Latin, Anglicised names; IE: Hebrew only)
"Christmas, Easter, and the other Christianised pagan holidays are evil and should not be celebrated - you must observe only His Holy Days as written in the Torah"
"If you don't obey his commandments (The Mosaic Law, the Torah, observation of the feast days exclusively (no Christmas, or Easter) and other Jewish customs) you don't love God."
"Christ died to give the Gentiles "The Way" into being able to be grafted into the [old covenant] under the natural branches." (Basically, Jesus only died to give the Gentiles a legal right to practice Judaism, everyone is still under The Law)
"In the millennial reign Jesus will reinstitute the Temple practices as high priest, and we will worship as per the old Temple methods." (Essentially a humanity wide regression into the legalistic covenant of Moses and Mosaic Temple practice.)
In general there was a whole lot of emphasis on Hebrew and the Jewish Way as being the only "proper" way for a Christian to be a Christian. There is alot of negative displeasure over this that I can't really express. But to put it bluntly I felt as if I were being told that Hebrew is superior to the other languages, and that the Gentiles or "wild branches" were inferior to the "natural branches" and other...icky "Jews are better than you! Zionist Nationalism! Dirty dogs go home!" kind of feelings...
And worst of all, I had little ammo (because I was exceedingly worn out and didn't feel like making my usual thesis of argument) to combat his insistence that unless I keep the Torah, and the Mosaic law (the commandments) then I do not actually love my God. In much the same way that I felt Mr. Nineveh constricting and choking my faith as per the Gentile way - I felt Mr. Damascus doing so, and it has been worse so in fact. And of course, much like Mr. Nineveh with my long hair, Mr. Damascus had a thing to say against me also - which is what drew out my cherubim blade in the first place.
I was accused of detesting the Bible, because I said "Love fulfills The Law, God is Love - not stone lists translated into paper ones. God is not rules and laws, God IS." - to the end that he said I detest the Bible, I pulled the blade and called him rather bluntly...a liar. And this is where the frustration truly began. And of course as per usual; because I did not agree with his way as "The True Way" I was yet again...in spiritual darkness, and essentially ignorant of God, his scriptures, and ways.
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In the face of Mr. Nineveh, I felt like growing my hair out even longer...
In the face of Mr. Damascus, I felt like wearing holly wreaths and dancing skyclad in the moonlight on the eve of a Mid-Spring's night while singing praises to Iesous Xristos in old Gaelic...
Now, I am not Anti-Semitic, God forbid - and I love much of the Jewish ways especially the feast days. I myself celebrate Passover joyfully, as best I can anyway. But I am not fond of feeling like a wretched child, or "the lesser son" just because I celebrate Christmas, and don't particularly find "keeping the Torah a delight" (in fact, in prayer time I've been bold enough to tell God that because of all of this I hate the mosaic laws, and I wish he'd never made them, or that they'd remained broken on the mountain side). In general...I've grown so displeased with The Jewish Way, that I almost feel a kind of hate for it altogether (something akin to not liking a certain food you used to like, because of food poisoning).
In the case of Mr. Nineveh, well...All he did was exasperate an already brewing displeasure of Paul (a brewing displeasure because of proximity to my earthly father, who absolutely despises Paul to the point of pretending to mistakenly call him "Saul" instead of Paul; my earthly father believes that Paul was a cheat, a swindler, and basically your ancient day variant of a t.v moneybags preacher, but my earthly father has unfortunately been very disagreeable as of late on all matters of religion...).
So it seems like I have two issues, ironic ones actually. Because of two men, and their two extremes - I have grown to heavily disdain both Paul, as well as Moses.
My heart aches for a "Real! faith in realness" a faith and a relationship that is direct, and almost "just between us" (Jesus/God and I) no rules, no conditions, no laws, no restrictions, perfect freedom, where I am ever improving, perfecting, and becoming more Christlike.
I expressed on facebook one day;
"I do not want to seek for the hand of God only; not for his gifts or for satisfaction in resting my faith in him only on what that hand may have written in books. Neither do I want to seek his face only; to find his approving countenance or... to feel somehow superior in spirit having that countenance. I want to seek his heart, and to be if I can - a heart in the body. Beating as he beats, full of life as he is full of life, sustaining as he is sustaining, loving as he is loving, at the very center of his being.
If Christ could have a little brother, I would want to be him."
It feels almost like I "just want to go Home..." and burst upwards like a shooting star back into the hands of God, above the storm of everyone's "this is the truth! it is our way, we are right!" - I want THE TRUTH, without the stupidity of dealing with ten thousand interpretations and doctrines and imperfect....just nonsense and thorough nonsense at that! I want God, God's heart, I want to be immortally, and eternally, and expressively my true-self in the midst of perfect Truth, Love, Life, alive and happy, and away from the warfield of conflicting philosophies, theologies, and rituals. I am even tired of Bibles actually... :sigh:
I want to express my worship and love of him in ways that are "our way" not "His way as per the Torah" or "His way as per Paul" or "His way as per this man's interpretation, or this church's doctrines". And you know what else? I want to share it all with my companion that I am longing for...which she has not appeared yet...and every day seems a little less hopeful.
I am not sure what it is that I am really trying to express, only that I've expressed it to God in this way;
"I grew up on the spiritual battle field. Not as much as others have, but it is almost like I was born with a sword. If I am a knight, I haven't ever fully taken off my armour, put down my sword, and put on my princely robes and enjoyed peace in a safe castle.
I am 20 years old, and yet I feel at times like I've been in battles fit for a priest in his 50s. But it is alright, I'm sure others have had it worse, and it has done me good to learn how to fight, and to continue that perfecting of skill.
A good soldier in the King's army after all.
I just want to take off my armour, put down my sword, put on some soft clean princely robes, and feast in the safety and security and peace of my Lord's castle, with my own lady princess who I know is my lady princess, and not "everyone else's" and hasn't been anyone else's, and I want this to be my life.
I want to spend my knightly days, not constantly at war wearing my armour - I want to be Home in my noble clothes, writing poetry, writing prose, making art, making music, enjoying the romance of my life.
I want it to be that going out to war is a rare event, and when I go out to war I want it to be more like sport than desperation - where I am assured of victory, already triumphant, and the glory of battle is the fact that I am irreproachable, immortal, and that I can return home safely to my Lord and my lady knowing that they have been untainted and perfectly safe, that the Devil has taken no vengeance against my wife and family and house for having warred with him, that he hasn't stolen my lady and given her to be a harlot while I was gone."
Such things like that, at any rate.
...And on top of all of this...I've been dealing with alot of lust issues...and my campaign against lust has been fraught with failure...
Our Father is working on all of us, all our issues are being dealt with.Consider it pure joy when you go through trials and tribulations.God is considering that you are able to accomplish all these things
blessings :icon_king:
Keep writing. You're gonna write a book some day. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lefein
So it seems like I have two issues, ironic ones actually. Because of two men, and their two extremes - I have grown to heavily disdain both Paul, as well as Moses.
Hi Lefein,
Just my observation but it seems you let people and their words get to you? You must let what they say {roll off your back like water}. You know what they say isn't the way it really is so, just chalk it up as experience and dealings with those who don't see things the same as you.
Another thing, you are mad at the wrong people. Paul and Moses had nothing to do with what these two people have said. Direct your anger at the ones who cause you frustration. Actually, this is just a chance for you to show them what true love, patience, understanding, really is.
One other thing, HANG IN THERE!!! It will probably get worse before it gets any better. Don't worry, be happy. :happy3: :happy3:
CHB
Thank you all for the encouragement.
Just be prepared for your ironic disdain of the man of your own heart.
What do you mean?
What is within you that has a knowing of others is also what knows yourself. What we dispense to others from within has by that means been sown within. We reap what we sow.
We are defined by our enemies as well as by our friends. A few times I've told someone with whom I was arguing concerning the things of God, "You honor me by being my enemy."
Hmmn. So basically, the beam in my own eyes?
Quote from: Lefein on March 24, 2011, 07:21:08 AM
Hmmn. So basically, the beam in my own eyes?
I think in plain talk he is saying, if you spot it...you got it. :grin:
There is some truth to that. We tend to be irritated the most by qualities we have within ourselves. I don't know how many times I became angry with someone who was dislaying some behavior I found offensive, then look inward only to see I have a similar or the same trait. I have corrected someone and minutes later committed the same act.
Probably one of the big ones for me is seeing someone who believes their way is the only way to see it. They are right, everyone else is wrong...I find them arrogant. The reason it bothers me is because I have the same arrogance that needs to die. Over the years, it has lessened but it's still there.
Awareness is the key. If we look inward, it is the start of healing. We can bring that trait and lay it at the feet of Christ. He know our hearts. He knows if we are ready to give it up. If you seek you will find, ask and you will receive. I truly believe that with all my heart. If there is a trait, I am truly willing to let go of...all of it...God moves.
I wonder if this means I have a terrible issue with legalism. That would make sense...I have expressed it before.
Quote from: Lefein on March 24, 2011, 07:45:19 AM
I wonder if this means I have a terrible issue with legalism. That would make sense...I have expressed it before.
Many of us do. Old traits sometimes take awhile to fully disappear. But, if you are truly ready to let go of it...I believe God is willing to move.
I am curious as to the specific "type" of legalism I have - afterall, there are many different sorts. Any help or intell on that? (battlefield talk :icon_king:)
Quote from: Lefein on March 24, 2011, 07:56:27 AM
I am curious as to the specific "type" of legalism I have - afterall, there are many different sorts. Any help or intell on that? (battlefield talk :icon_king:)
I certainly wasn't analyzing you. I recognize the fact that the things that disturb us reveal much to us about us. It appears to be a universal truth.
Oh Lefein hahahaha
Quotebecause I have long hair, I am not only gay, but in rebellion against God, and godless in spiritual darkness.
And also bahahahaha
QuoteIn the face of Mr. Nineveh, I felt like growing my hair out even longer...
In the face of Mr. Damascus, I felt like wearing holly wreaths and dancing skyclad in the moonlight on the eve of a Mid-Spring's night while singing praises to Iesous Xristos in old Gaelic...
I think you already see the humour in these men's errors. It always helps me to think about where my "enemies" are coming from and to put myself in their shoes. Think about how obviously in the dark they are about many things and pray for them. I often find that feelings of love will come for them when I do this. Just a suggestion. :smile:
I believe we need to come to a place where we stop fighting everything and everybody. In my youth, I felt the world needed my insights and it was my job to correct. I would battle in ignorant debates, and convince myself that my stance was correct. There are certainly remenants of that man still within me.
So, when approached by someone who is legalistic, abrasive and maybe even abusive...I must realize that they are not my battle. It's God's job to change their heart. I will no longer beat my plow along dry and unfertile soil. I know today my knowledge is incomplete and in some areas probably completely wrong. But, I also know I am right where I am supposed to be. I take much solace in that.
So, how do we speak to ourselves? Who's story about us do we believe? Why is it that it's so hard to abide in his rest?
Another note...I have really appreciated your honesty about some of your struggles. I know several members here who battle with lust...myself included. You are not alone. But, find your rest in knowing the day is coming when God will overcome that in your life. Keep your focus on him...not doctrine, details, debates, yourself, your sin, abuses of others etc. As we fix our eyes on our Savior, we become more like him daily. When we focus on the carnal, we become more carnal.
There is alot of wisdom in what you've said Shawn.
QuoteWhen we focus on the carnal, we become more carnal.
This especially.
I was listening to a message several years ago by a pastor named Lynn Hiles . . .awesome speaker . .he to walks these same roads of belief we travel here. One of the things that really stuck with me was when he was talking to God about why did he have to go through all of the religion, all of the doctrine, all of the legalism in his life and then be set free from it at the end. Why did he have to go through all of the false stuff at all? And he then said God told him that he led him through those legalistic places so that he'd learn how those people thought, how they walked, what made them tick . . .so that when he entered into the land of freedom, he could go back to them and talk on their level of understanding.
I grew up in an extremely legalistic environment. It's actually become a bit of a back-lash at times even now. I've had ministers accuse me, because they knew how conformed I used to be, that as a result of that conformity, I now have thrown myself to the other extreme and now everything is all about liberation . . .almost an "anything goes" kind of theology, which isn't where I am at all, but in using that as their platform, then then can disregard whatever point I'm trying to get across to them because they think I've just merely left one ditch for another.
I live not in knowledge, but in faith. And I've found that in doing so, grace seems so much more powerful and dominant than mercy . . .mercy still has a role, but I've found many who see themselves in a victim mentality often emphasize mercy more than grace. But isn't there a passage that speaks about where sin is, grace abounds even more? Not mercy . . grace! I thank God for his mercy in my life, but his grace is what I want to be my idenity.
(Rom. 5:20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound, But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.
CHB