Looking at this from a different perspective, as of late.
20For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness. 21What fruit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? The outcome of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:20 - 23
Death can be viewed 3 different ways, it seems. Death meaning eternal damnation, death meaning the death of the body, or death meaning the death of the 'old man' of the flesh.
I think most of us were taught to think of death of the body, for sure, with probably hell as an association to being a sinner.
But, I invite you to look at it another way. Let's read this Bible passage that comes before the one I just printed.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be raised to life as He was. 6We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. 7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. 10The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. 11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:5 - 11
It states, that if we die with Jesus, on the cross, we will live with Him in the Resurrection. So, our death is our death to ourselves, in this content. We die with Christ to be born into His new life.
Then, lets look at this passage:
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:25 - 26
So, it seems to me, our 'death' is not about a physical one, because Jesus is saying that even if we die, we will live; and if we believe in Jesus, we will never die.
Now, obviously, we all do die. So, Jesus is not talking about death of the body, but rather the unifying death we experience when we die to ourselves and become part of the body of Christ. As long as we believe in Jesus, we will never know 'death'.
Okay, one more.
11In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Colossians 2: 13 - 15
So, again, the same theme. When we die with Christ, we then rise with Him, into new life. It is the unity with Him, that takes away death and turns it into Resurrection.
So, the wages of sin, I believe, is first and foremost the 'death' of our carnal selves, so we can become born into Christ, and live forever.
Therefore, the price of the fall of Adam and Eve is to die to our mortal life, and to be made new through our faith, into the Life of Christ. Without Him, there is no life. That is why He is the only way to the Father. He is the Life of mankind; the Light of the World; the Word made flesh; the Vine of which we are the branches.
And, I believe, this puts a different twist to that passage, and eliminates the thought that death might imply the fiery death of Hell, to destroy us for our failure to live up to the Law.
For me, right now, it seems as obvious as the nose on my face. I have read these passages many, many times, but did not make this connection with them before.
What do you all think, folks? If I am not clear enough, please excuse me. Let me know and I will correct myself.
Also, if some of you eluded or spoke of this and I didn't catch it or agree with you before, just want you to know......I got it now. :egyptdance:
D.
P.S. Just saw this one and I had to add it:
John 1:4
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Personally, I believe the wages of sin being death means walking in a spiritually and emotionally destructive path. The unification of us with the crucifixion I believe is the death OF death, which is life.
Quote from: Dandelion on August 04, 2016, 05:00:06 AM
It states, that if we die with Jesus, on the cross, we will live with Him in the Resurrection. So, our death is our death to ourselves, in this content. We die with Christ to be born into His new life.
...absolutely! :iagree:
Quote from: Dandelion on August 04, 2016, 05:00:06 AM
"What fruit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? The outcome of those things is death."
like "dead man walking"? that it's kind of one and the same?.. the flawed nature and death.. for the outcome, is death.
[I think of death as nonlife, and not alive.. tho God can and does resurrect..]It's interesting to me that for John 11:25 - 26 - the interlinear says it like this.. "everyone who lives and believes in me shall in no wise die forever/"aiōn" ("perpetually?)
I was curious how Young's literal says it, so looked it up on bible gateway,
"Jesus said to her, `
I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;"
Quote from: Dandelion on August 04, 2016, 05:00:06 AM
Without Him, there is no life.
That's what I believe.. there is no living/life apart from the source of life, Yahweh and by extension, His Son which "all things were created through(in)" and our father is gathering all into..
Quote from: Dandelion on August 04, 2016, 05:00:06 AM
..to die to our mortal life, and to be made new through our faith, into the Life of Christ.
...born again..!
Quote from: Dandelion on August 04, 2016, 05:00:06 AM
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
And, I believe, this puts a different twist to that passage, and eliminates the thought that death might imply the fiery death of Hell, to destroy us for our failure to live up to the Law.
:banana: :banana: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
to say nothing of the ET idea one would
live, be
alive, forever in 'hell' (being tormented/tortured) when the outcome of sin is death..
"He breathed into Adam the breath of life and Adam became a living 'soul' " / a living being-New King James, ..
Quote from: Dandelion on August 04, 2016, 05:00:06 AM
P.S. Just saw this one and I had to add it:
John 1:4
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
P.S - I was curious about Genesis 2:7 -
Young's Literal Version
7 And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.
"being, creature" - #H5315
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
#H5314 - "nâphash
naw-fash' A primitive root; to breathe
( http://studybible.info/IHOT/genesis%202:7 )
Thank you, Marie and Seth.
It is interesting Seth.....death can be a destructive path, or it can be dying to one's self, so we don't go on that destructive path. Sort of the flip side of the coin.
Thank you Marie for your confirmation and understanding of where I was going. Not always easy to follow my thinking, or so I have been told by many. Sort of like the roller coaster in Coney Island, sometimes. :trampoline:
D.