Everlasting

[WhiteWings]

Tom,

Your OT verses are all good and fine. I'm not rejecting any of them. So just looking at them I would say: "The dead are just very dead."

But.....
When I think about Jesus, I always get the thought "He did something. He changed something. Perhaps the OT verses Tom correctly quoted are no longer relevant."

BTW, that's not a rebuttal. I honestly don't know.

[micah7:9]

Tom,

Your OT verses are all good and fine. I'm not rejecting any of them. So just looking at them I would say: "The dead are just very dead."

But.....
When I think about Jesus, I always get the thought "He did something. He changed something. Perhaps the OT verses Tom correctly quoted are no longer relevant."

BTW, that's not a rebuttal. I honestly don't know.

I agree with both of your statements as well as Tom, whose verses I believe are still relevant.
Yes Jesus did change something, and we await that change.  :2c:

[micah7:9]

I find the information in this thread a buffet. I sit here now typing this post with a  new understanding, yet understood[in my mind] concerning the grave, hades, sheol, and yes even death. I want to thank you all. :dsunny:

You all have opened and closed views I had. I believe there is much to be considered and re considered, I speak only for myself. :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

Tom,

Your OT verses are all good and fine. I'm not rejecting any of them. So just looking at them I would say: "The dead are just very dead."

But.....
When I think about Jesus, I always get the thought "He did something. He changed something. Perhaps the OT verses Tom correctly quoted are no longer relevant."

BTW, that's not a rebuttal. I honestly don't know.

I agree with both of your statements as well as Tom, whose verses I believe are still relevant.
Yes Jesus did change something, and we await that change.  :2c:

It's crazy how there's so much confusion about if the dead are really dead. It's really like comedy material, but I think folks need to understand it's just because of Plato's philosophy of immortality of the soul adopted by the church that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying"" (Genesis 3:4)

[eaglesway]

I believe the whole terminology "immortality of the soul" is misleading. There is only one who is "alone immortal and dwells in unapproachable light"- the Father.

I do believe however, that every soul created abides forever. Not one will pass away. God did not create then to dissasemble and reassemble them, but they are not "immortal" because they abide only at His pleasure and if He wished, they could be snuffed out. He cannot be shuffed out.

Jesus is filled with all the fulness of God because "So it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him" and having been exalted to the Father's right hand, He has received "the Spirit without measure"- I do not believe Jesus' soul ceased to exist during His 3 days "in the belly of the earth".

I also do not believe we cease to exist when we die- and it has nothing to do with Plato or any idea of "immortal souls".

It is because I read scriptures that for me, give evidence that the souls sleeps the sleep of death in the night of sheol, the grave, to be awakened at God's pleasure, to find itself "in the Day of His appearing".

I realize there is much disagreement on this and I do not consider it to be foundational, but no one, including myself, should be making pronouncements on this topic as if it is obvious or settled- cuz it aint  :laugh:

[rosered]

I believe the whole terminology "immortality of the soul" is misleading. There is only one who is "alone immortal and dwells in unapproachable light"- the Father.

I do believe however, that every soul created abides forever. Not one will pass away. God did not create then to dissasemble and reassemble them, but they are not "immortal" because they abide only at His pleasure and if He wished, they could be snuffed out. He cannot be shuffed out.

Jesus is filled with all the fulness of God because "So it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him" and having been exalted to the Father's right hand, He has received "the Spirit without measure"- I do not believe Jesus' soul ceased to exist during His 3 days "in the belly of the earth".

I also do not believe we cease to exist when we die- and it has nothing to do with Plato or any idea of "immortal souls".

It is because I read scriptures that for me, give evidence that the souls sleeps the sleep of death in the night of sheol, the grave, to be awakened at God's pleasure, to find itself "in the Day of His appearing".

I realize there is much disagreement on this and I do not consider it to be foundational, but no one, including myself, should be making pronouncements on this topic as if it is obvious or settled- cuz it aint  :laugh:

  :thumbsup:


  :iagree:     

[eaglesway]

I knew you would, having read your posts on the subject in the past :o)

[rosered]

I knew you would, having read your posts on the subject in the past :o)

   I cannot help it    bro !! :mblush:     I love everyone   and want you to know that     :HeartThrob:     But I believe Jesus  Words   [John 5 ] and am more of the internal    believer than the outward manifestation  of things

I really do believe  some  die and    held by death will not be resurrected till   confession time   [every knee bows and every tongue confesses the Lord Jesus Christ ,  ]  but some those given life  , never die just as Jesus tells us  its so , they die in the flesh of course ,  but are not held by death  any longer because they believed and obeyed Jesus Christ now and   they are alive in the SPIRIT of Jesus Christ   that has no end !!  HE IS OUR REWARD   

  I know that  death will be swallowed up in victory  in what Jesus Christ done on the cross , now we wait on the Lord Jesus Christ  to show us  the way    its done !   be  always  ready    :HeartThrob:

rev 22



    11"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

13"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

[Tom]

I believe the whole terminology "immortality of the soul" is misleading. There is only one who is "alone immortal and dwells in unapproachable light"- the Father.

I do believe however, that every soul created abides forever. Not one will pass away. God did not create then to dissasemble and reassemble them, but they are not "immortal" because they abide only at His pleasure and if He wished, they could be snuffed out. He cannot be shuffed out.

Jesus is filled with all the fulness of God because "So it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him" and having been exalted to the Father's right hand, He has received "the Spirit without measure"- I do not believe Jesus' soul ceased to exist during His 3 days "in the belly of the earth".

I also do not believe we cease to exist when we die- and it has nothing to do with Plato or any idea of "immortal souls".

It is because I read scriptures that for me, give evidence that the souls sleeps the sleep of death in the night of sheol, the grave, to be awakened at God's pleasure, to find itself "in the Day of His appearing".

I realize there is much disagreement on this and I do not consider it to be foundational, but no one, including myself, should be making pronouncements on this topic as if it is obvious or settled- cuz it aint  :laugh:

"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

Anytime I say something, bro, it's only my opinion unless I'm quoting scripture, and I know it ain't over till the fat lady sings. We've talked about this scripture before, and I remember that we disagreed about who it refers to. I think it's Christ because "mortal" means subject to death which he was at one time and indeed died. I think he was really dead for three days, and, while he was, his soul was "unseen." Then I believe he was made alive again by the power of the Father and the first one to be given immortality which we believers will also experience when he meets us in the air, and unbelievers will experience at the consummation of the eons. I understand what you saying when you say, "the souls sleep the sleep of death" because I know scripture says, "We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose." In other words death is likened to sleep in scripture, and scripture also says souls die. That's why I think immortality of the soul is a false idea. Living souls die, but then we will be made alive again in spiritual bodies.

"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting? " (1 Corinthians 15:42-55)
 

[eaglesway]

In any case, we agree that all shall be raised, and all shall be reconciled :o)

[Tom]

Amen, brother, and we'll find out about all the other details when the fat lady sings.

[WhiteWings]

Tom,

Your OT verses are all good and fine. I'm not rejecting any of them. So just looking at them I would say: "The dead are just very dead."

But.....
When I think about Jesus, I always get the thought "He did something. He changed something. Perhaps the OT verses Tom correctly quoted are no longer relevant."

BTW, that's not a rebuttal. I honestly don't know.

I agree with both of your statements as well as Tom, whose verses I believe are still relevant.
Yes Jesus did change something, and we await that change.  :2c:

It's crazy how there's so much confusion about if the dead are really dead. It's really like comedy material, but I think folks need to understand it's just because of Plato's philosophy of immortality of the soul adopted by the church that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying"" (Genesis 3:4)

Tom,

If the dead stay dead for just 1 second, then they died. They just got resurrected very quickly (because of Jesus)

The thing is that the verses that speak about death, sleep, etc are written before Jesus was resurrected.
And because of that quite useless in this discussion.


Maybe you should have quoted this  :winkgrin:

Acts 2

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,



But is that enough proof to settle this discussion?
Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The dust of David was dead still in the tomb. But what about his spirit?


BTW I have nothing to do with Plato and I have no church background/doctrine.

[eaglesway]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


post resurrection references to death as sleep.

[rosered]

  Thank you WW
  and Eagleway   for    saying as you said ,

I used to have such a hard time understanding this   in Acts 2   ,  but do you know what   Paul is declaring   here ...

He is saying  I  preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified !!        the Cross   is where   it all  newness   begins !  MERCY   over  Judgment  , by this gift of grace given ,   Yes Jesus    has the victory over death ,  He  defeated death !    death has no hold   over those    who slept in  hope   of Jesus Christ born under law

  David was saying I await    this    promise  of Gods mighty work/  miracle    to       show us all  that  Jesus Christ come and appeared in the FULLNESS OF TIMES    BORN by woman under law     and     showed us the power of God   by grace and than the cross    to    destroy the works of the devil    who    held many under the bondage of the LAW    , under law you are a servant   and not a son , this is why David said  , my Lord said to my Lord   sit at my right hand till I make  all my enemies my footstool     ,      His servant David was now given  right under the GRACE OF GOD to be called a son of God   
that   dwell in the HOUSE FOREVER
anyone born of God thought the seed of Christ is a son of God    , this was not   allowed under   the LAW  of Moses or Elijah 
  note the servants of God and friends of God  and man of God     ,  not till the SON OF GOD  ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER APPEARED BORN OF WOMAN     under the law /BONDAGE  OF SIN   was sinless    JESUS CHRIST IS HIS NAME !and there is no name UNDER HEAVEN  /UNDER LAW       BY WHICH YOU MUST BE SAVED !

This is why we have to  consider our bodies dead because of sin   but alive  in faith of  the work  of   GOD   though Jesus  Christ ,, in the Spirit   
the Holy Spirit is all those witlessness   of the old set free in Christ   , this was the reason for the      renewing   of the Holy Ghost / Spirit and   new birth seed  is Christ in us     , this coming and  being in the earth now , not waiting to die and go up  and ascend  , but he DESCENDED     coming  down in the earth our earthly bodies to make   known  righteousness in the earth   known  by the LIGHT OF THE WORLD &   KNOWLEDGE OF GOD     over sin and death    and the law that held them captive to it . 

Titus 3 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior


1John  3:*7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil;

for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



Again, I will say anyone who holds the testimony of Jesus Christ in their bosom     has the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY  in them   also  , THIS SAME WITNESS    that all the witnesses  of brethren  being born again as the Sons of God to HIS OWN GLORY     Who does  dwell in the house of GOD  FOREVER   Being sons   and heirs    to them promises      made by the Lord God himself , when  He died /testator  Hebrews 9   of the new covenant  came into effect         and     the inheritance  was distributed   as gifts to mankind by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself     , being the son of mankind and the Son of God    and by being the Lord / master of the dead and the living     ,  holding both      in HIS POWER     TO SAVE   WHOM HE WILL



   

Those under law were set free  just as we are also given the same     promises   being set t free    have   in them    being of   LORD/MASTER  OF HOSTS the HOLY SPIRIT    are with the Lord Jesus Christ we are surrounded by them   here and now             Hebrews   12   great cloud of witnesses 

  the law is the shadow    of the great things to come  , the greace of God is the glory of the Father though the Son and many sons of Glory though Him ...



18 and also upon My men-servants, and upon My maid-servants, in those days, I will pour out of My Spirit, and they shall prophesy;
19 and I will give wonders in the heaven above, and signs upon the earth beneath -- blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke,


20 the sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the day of the Lord -- the great and illustrious;
21 and it shall be, every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.
22 `Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known;
23 this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;
24 whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it,
25 for David saith in regard to him: I foresaw the Lord always before me -- because He is on my right hand -- that I may not be moved;
26 because of this was my heart cheered, and my tongue was glad, and yet -- my flesh also shall rest on hope,
27 because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;
28 Thou didst make known to me ways of life, Thou shalt fill me with joy with Thy countenance
29 `Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;

His tomb ,  and I see it as empty !!!!
3 a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne,
31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;
33 at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;
34 for David did not go up to the heavens, and he saith himself: The Lord saith to my lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
35 till I make thy foes thy footstool;
36 assuredly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know, that both Lord and Christ did God make him -- this Jesus whom ye did crucify.'
37 And having heard, they were pricked to the heart; they say also to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles, `What shall we do, men, brethren?'
38 and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,
39 for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.'

  I dont know what is happening , but I never knew before   now  and all   that I know    is Jesus Christ and Him crucified !!      to the Glory of   God  we are most thankful to know and understand   your precious work      in the earth  , to those whom are given ears to  hear what the Spirit is saying     and be   forgiven   and healed   by His holy grace   and redeemed  by the Blood of Christ   from the     good  in the   law   of   exposing  the evil  of  sin and    death     and death being  its reward   to  satan s only  hold on us    as servants to sin    , that we are able to be called the sons of God  though Jesus Christ  whom has the power and victory over   ALL !!!       Glory to God!!

[Tom]

Tom,

Your OT verses are all good and fine. I'm not rejecting any of them. So just looking at them I would say: "The dead are just very dead."

But.....
When I think about Jesus, I always get the thought "He did something. He changed something. Perhaps the OT verses Tom correctly quoted are no longer relevant."

BTW, that's not a rebuttal. I honestly don't know.

I agree with both of your statements as well as Tom, whose verses I believe are still relevant.
Yes Jesus did change something, and we await that change.  :2c:

It's crazy how there's so much confusion about if the dead are really dead. It's really like comedy material, but I think folks need to understand it's just because of Plato's philosophy of immortality of the soul adopted by the church that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying"" (Genesis 3:4)

Tom,

If the dead stay dead for just 1 second, then they died. They just got resurrected very quickly (because of Jesus)

The thing is that the verses that speak about death, sleep, etc are written before Jesus was resurrected.
And because of that quite useless in this discussion.


Maybe you should have quoted this  :winkgrin:

Acts 2

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,



But is that enough proof to settle this discussion?
Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The dust of David was dead still in the tomb. But what about his spirit?


BTW I have nothing to do with Plato and I have no church background/doctrine.

I think dead is dead, not another form of life, before or after Christ even though death is like sleep and spoken of figuratively as sleep in scripture. I also think the dead will probably sense no time passing between the moment they die and the moment they're resurrected because the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So I think death is God's creative way of compressing time for the dead. Dead unbelievers will not be alive for eonian life, which is what believers are promised, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[eaglesway]

I think it becomes a very fine line when you look at it. You think it is figurative- ok, I hav no problem with that, because I see "sleep" in exactly the same way you defined death. A compression of time from which every soul will awaken at there appointed resurrection(each in his own order). I take it literally- only because I do not believe the soul dissolves at death and recoalesces or whatever at resurrection time.

[Tom]

I think it becomes a very fine line when you look at it. You think it is figurative- ok, I hav no problem with that, because I see "sleep" in exactly the same way you defined death. A compression of time from which every soul will awaken at there appointed resurrection(each in his own order). I take it literally- only because I do not believe the soul dissolves at death and recoalesces or whatever at resurrection time.

I don't think I've ever seen the exact words "the soul dissolves at death," as you say, because I don't remember reading that in scripture. The Concordant Version does use the word "dissolution" though in 2 Timothy 4:6 which means "the act or process of dissolving" according to Merriam-Webster Online.

"For I am already a libation, and the period of my dissolution is imminent." (2 Timothy 4:6)

But I think that refers to the "dissolution" of a human into the basic elements of body, soul, and spirit.

I think scripture says the soul dies and is "unseen."

The Greek "koimao," literally "lie," is translated "repose," implying sleep. The noun "koimesis," literally "lie-ing," in John 11:13 shows that it refers to the repose of sleep.

The Greek "hupnos" is literally "sleep."

"He said these things, and after this He is saying to them, "Lazarus, our friend, has found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of sleep." The disciples, then, said to Him, "Lord, if he has repose, he shall be saved." Now Jesus had made a declaration concerning his death, yet they suppose that He is saying it concerning the repose of sleep. Jesus, then, said to them with boldness then, "Lazarus died."" (John 11:11-14)

It seems that there could have been some confusion about sleep and death because death was sometimes referred to as "sleep," but I think the difference is that a dead person usually doesn't wake up. That's why I think referring to death as "sleep" is speaking figuratively. I think scripture saying that we'll be resurrected in spiritual bodies kind of leaves us wondering about what's up with the soul. But, because scripture says the soul dies, I don't think the soul is immortal. When Christ meets us in the air, we will be immortalized in spiritual bodies. Scripture also says flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God and that the soul is in the blood. That tells me that our vivified bodies won't have flesh and therefore blood like we do now which tells me that we may not even have a soul or be considered "living souls" anymore because we will be more like immortalized spiritual bodies probably not subject to time and space the same way we are now. I think that's why Christ probably walked through the wall with the locked door of the upper room after his resurrection. I think we will be able to travel from earth to heaven and back because we will always be with the Lord. The soul is the result of a combination of spirit with an organic body, but we will have spiritual bodies when we are vivified which I think means we probably won't have or need a soul anymore. I think our perception will be much different then, not perceiving with our soul but more intuitively with our spirit; maybe communicating intuitively without spoken language; and our perception of time could be like everything is in the present. Time and space seem to be what's happening during the eons because God transcends time and space, but, at the consummation of the eons maybe time as we know it will cease to exist. Because there will be no mortality, maybe we'll all be young from then on. All of this sounds far out, but I experienced some sense of timeless intuitiveness in the light at one time that was also total peace and unconditional love. That's why, when somebody says what's the use of caring about eonian life when we're all going to be saved eventually anyway, I think they don't realize how much they would be missing out on. But it's all according to God's will who will do so anyway. I think we're all chosen for a specific purpose in God's plan, some for eonian life and some not, but God loves all mankind and will save all mankind from death at the consummation of the eons when all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled with God, and God will be all in all. I used to wonder what it was that left my body and was looking down at myself in that hospital bed. Was it my soul or my spirit? I think now that it was spiritual consciousness that I experienced which is a much higher vibration than the soulish perception we usually have in our bodies. I think we're all going to be very amazed and very glad to experience immortality with the Lord, but I think it's kind of mysterious in scripture about whether that will be perceived with or without a soul. I personally think the soul will not be necessary, but I could be wrong. That's just my own humble opinion. At least one of our brothers insists that we don't have a soul, but we are souls. I think scripture uses the word "soul" both ways, but I also think, when we're immortalized, that we won't really be "living souls" anymore. We'll be literally new creatures in Christ in spiritual bodies.   

[eaglesway]

Some people believe the soul ceases to exist at death, and is reconstituted in the resurrection.

I believe there is no confusion about sleep and death. Sleep is a term Paul used to describe the condition of the soul in death. I think that term works for Paul for a reason. I believe that I understand what that reason is, so I have no problem with using that term also. :o)

I also believe that we "are" a soul and that the soul, which we are, along with body and spirit, goes into a state Paul calls "sleep", at death.

[eaglesway]

I also believe that we will not all sleep- but we will all be changed, in the moment, in a twinkling of an eye, in the resurrection.

[Tom]

Some people believe the soul ceases to exist at death, and is reconstituted in the resurrection.

I believe there is no confusion about sleep and death. Sleep is a term Paul used to describe the condition of the soul in death. I think that term works for Paul for a reason. I believe that I understand what that reason is, so I have no problem with using that term also. :o)

I also believe that we "are" a soul and that the soul, which we are, along with body and spirit, goes into a state Paul calls "sleep", at death.

That's why it's sometimes said that the dead are sleeping with the fishes.

[eaglesway]

 :laugh:

[Tom]

I also believe that we will not all sleep- but we will all be changed, in the moment, in a twinkling of an eye, in the resurrection.

You may be right, brother. That makes sense to me too. That could be why sleep and death are used synonymously. But I think we will definitely have a much higher consciousness than we do now in these soulish bodies.

"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

[eaglesway]

I agree. We will, "Know as we are known". We will be "filled up to all the fulness of God".