I have been wondering about something lately. Namely why do ET believers/preachers get miracles if what they are teaching is not completely true? I'm not talking about healings and such, but things like angelic protection when preaching their message. For example, I went to a Bible University and a few of our students went on a missions trip to Haiti where they preached the "good news". All of a sudden their eyes were opened and they saw some huge angels and a bunch of little demons and basically they were seeing a spiritual battle going on while a witch doctor gave his life to Christ.
I also just read a similar story about a preacher preaching the "good news" in a prison with mentally insane inmates and his eyes were opened and he saw a bunch of huge angels protecting him. I just don't understand if their "good news" is not exactly the true good news, why does God protect them and their message? (Mind you I don't know exactly what was said by these preachers, if they mentioned anything about eternal hell or whatnot, but I at least know the students were ET believers.)
Fact, fantasy or lies?
:2c:
:cloud9: Because He only holds us accountable for what we KNOW. He looks at the motive of the heart, period. Blessings...
So it's best to know nothing?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2010, 07:03:04 PM
So it's best to know nothing?
LOL! Too late for you, ww.
I believe God is faithful to his name.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2010, 04:19:53 PM
Fact, fantasy or lies?
:2c:
IMO it's fact, at least the girls from my university were telling the truth. They are not the type of girls who would lie.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 05, 2010, 06:38:03 PM
:cloud9: Because He only holds us accountable for what we KNOW. He looks at the motive of the heart, period. Blessings...
Makes sense I guess. I just don't understand how people who so obviously want to follow Him and have dedicated their lives to Him aren't awakened to the understanding that He is saving the whole world. :dontknow:
Quote from: santikos on October 05, 2010, 07:48:26 PM
I believe God is faithful to his name.
Could you explain this further?
Thanks everyone for your input. :cloud9:
ET is a powerful doctrine of the devils, it is not going to go away easilly. That's why emotional appeals to an ET believer does nothing, the devils reinforce the message of eternal hell into them and take away the good seed.
God is no respector of persons so since most churches belive in hell, it would not be great for the kingdom of God if only non Et belivers received his protection and miracles. Also I notice that those in the non Et crowd are much more likely to bring their own beliefs with them . e.g they do not belive in Gods miracles. I often see people on youtube who are not part of the orthodox church who disagree with miracles and so if there are many people like this together in a org that does not belive in ET, then the fact that they do not belive in miracles makes it difficult for God to work miracles in that choked atmosphere.
There is a scripture somehwere in the gospels where Jesus cannot do great works because of their unbelief.
4But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
--Mark 6
Quote from: thinktank on October 05, 2010, 09:25:47 PMAlso I notice that those in the non Et crowd are much more likely to bring their own beliefs with them . e.g they do not belive in Gods miracles. I often see people on youtube who are not part of the orthodox church who disagree with miracles and so if there are many people like this together in a org that does not belive in ET, then the fact that they do not belive in miracles makes it difficult for God to work miracles in that choked atmosphere.
The world is filled with lies for all kind of reasons. Usually power and/or financial gain. I think that in such a world being sceptical is good. It might evenmake it easier for God to do miracles because if you believe about anything then every true miracle od offset with 100 fake ones. True or false is in the eye of the beholder.
It's not that hard to post a vision you never had. Would it be believed? Depends on what forum I post. If it fits their doctrine it's true if not it's a vision of satan.
I know absolutely nothing about lomarah's friends. How can I know it was real or fake? By just verifiying it with the Bible. Even that won't work because everyone with decent Bible knowledge can write such a thing.
Quote from: lomarah on October 05, 2010, 03:07:58 PM
All of a sudden their eyes were opened and they saw some huge angels and a bunch of little demons and basically they were seeing a spiritual battle going on while a witch doctor gave his life to Christ.
I have read something similar.
Someone had vision and saw a dead person near the edge of a cliff. Some sort of judgement was going on.
Demons tried to drag the body over the edge (into hell).
The angels tried to drag the body away from the cliff to safety.
who sinned?this man or his parents...its for the glory of God not man,Cardinal is right its the heart motive
Quote from: Molly on October 05, 2010, 09:49:23 PM
4But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
--Mark 6
lol, well done molly. You have a great gift at finding the right scripture. :thumbsup:
Quote from: lomarah on October 05, 2010, 08:47:15 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 05, 2010, 06:38:03 PM
:cloud9: Because He only holds us accountable for what we KNOW. He looks at the motive of the heart, period. Blessings...
Makes sense I guess. I just don't understand how people who so obviously want to follow Him and have dedicated their lives to Him aren't awakened to the understanding that He is saving the whole world. :dontknow:
:cloud9: Again, it's the motive of the heart and it can't be ascertained by man. What APPEARS to be righteous motive, in the HEART of man that He sees, it may be something for self-gain, like serving Him because it looks good, gets them respect in the community, pays well, ect.
We just never know. Our hearts are like onions with many layers of self that have to be peeled away to reveal Christ and learn to walk in a pure motive, out of a cleansed conscience. Sometimes, the layers are quite surprising even to the one having them exposed by the HG.
And there is also the growth factor. It's all men in their season, and you can't go from kindergarten to college. He also knows who is ready and willing to receive, and who has grown comfortable in their "oasis" and will refuse to follow the cloud and perish. So He leaves them where they are and works on them more, rather than expose them to something they will reject and THEN be accountable for. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: thinktank on October 05, 2010, 09:25:47 PM
God is no respector of persons so since most churches belive in hell, it would not be great for the kingdom of God if only non Et belivers received his protection and miracles.
Indeed, who of us has a 100% perfect theology after all? UR'ers, too, disagree with each other on certain things. For example some believe there will be a rapture, others believe the church will go to the tribulation, some believe the tribulation took place already in 70 A.D.
Quote from: Aleax on October 06, 2010, 03:28:26 PM
Quote from: thinktank on October 05, 2010, 09:25:47 PM
God is no respector of persons so since most churches belive in hell, it would not be great for the kingdom of God if only non Et belivers received his protection and miracles.
Indeed, who of us has a 100% perfect theology after all? UR'ers, too, disagree with each other on certain things. For example some believe there will be a rapture, others believe the church will go to the tribulation, some believe the tribulation took place already in 70 A.D.
Yes, I suppose this is true, most people do not have everything down, we see through a glass darkly. Thanks everyone for your replies. :cloud9:
Did you guys know that this same thing happened to Elijah? He had literal angels revive him, feed him, and encourage him only to lead him in the wrong direction. After that huge display of God's power burning up his bull, not to mention the water that saturated it, immediately after which Elijah ordered the deaths of all the false prophets of Jezebel to which she responded by putting a death warrant out on his life. So he ran.
If you check it on a map, you'll find that he ran all the way to the boarder of Israel where he gave it all up and waited for death to come. The angel showed up, woke him up, fed him and woke him up again, fed him again and then lead him 40 days across the boarder into the wilderness to where it's beleived to be the same place that God revealed to Moses his hinder parts . . .
The reason why I say he was lead in the wrong direction is because after the fire, whirlwind and earthquake (not sure of the actual order of that) the first thing God told him was . . . .to return to where he just came from. Angels led him all that way only for him to have to turn around and go back.
Quote from: santikos on October 05, 2010, 07:48:26 PM
I believe God is faithful to his name.
yes Eze20 speaks of this very thing.
peace
chuckt
Doing miracles/healing etc is not always evidence of God's approval, or even basic maturity.
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
(Mat 7:21-23)
Stewardship is a little understood facet of the kingdom of God in my opinion. There are things we can do in Jesus name because of faith- yet walking in great mixture/chaos/carnality.
The Corinthians came behind in no gift according to Paul, yet they were carnal, babes in Christ.
Peter did miracles and I assume Judas did as well, because of the authority Jesus gave them via a rhema command. Yet Jesus said to Peter....Get behind me Satan, and we all kno of Judas' infamy.
Also, I believe as Aleax said, "Who has perfect theology?" God looks n the heart. I did not notice any greater dimension of God's love towards me after I became convinced of UR. He always loved me, and I saw healings and deliverance in my service to the Lord long before- even at a time when I was very legalistic and short sighted in my understanding of the gospel.
So, only Jesus can "try the reins and the hearts". He knows-not I. But I do know that the "Lord worked with them, confirming the Word with signs and wonders". Even so, the proclamation of the glorious gospel of God is more important than miracles. Even as the disciples did miracles in Jesus name, He rebuked them, saying,"Don't you kno what spirit you are of?" We have been called into the ministry of reconciliation, and entrusted with the Word of reconciliation in accordance the high call of God in Christ, and His kind intention which He purposed in Himself, who causes all things to work in accord with the counsel of His will.
If there arises among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder comes to pass, and then he says unto you, Let us follow other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them; You shall not follow the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
(Deu 13:1-3)
Quote from: lomarah on October 05, 2010, 03:07:58 PMI also just read a similar story about a preacher preaching the "good news" in a prison with mentally insane inmates and his eyes were opened and he saw a bunch of huge angels protecting him. I just don't understand if their "good news" is not exactly the true good news, why does God protect them and their message?
Doesn't it prove that God has a plan? If He hated that preacher He would have withdrawn the guardian angels. Trick of satan? Lies mixed with truth often are more effective as just lies.
Quote(Mind you I don't know exactly what was said by these preachers, if they mentioned anything about eternal hell or whatnot, but I at least know the students were ET believers.)
Everyone believing in Jesus is saved. Also according to ET. Because they didn't need to be saved with a hell sermon the preacher maybe just used love verses.
Not enough info I think. Maybe even that is a trick of satan. With minimal/incomplete info there is confusion. Just as satan likes it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2010, 10:09:00 PM
Quote from: thinktank on October 05, 2010, 09:25:47 PMAlso I notice that those in the non Et crowd are much more likely to bring their own beliefs with them . e.g they do not belive in Gods miracles. I often see people on youtube who are not part of the orthodox church who disagree with miracles and so if there are many people like this together in a org that does not belive in ET, then the fact that they do not belive in miracles makes it difficult for God to work miracles in that choked atmosphere.
The world is filled with lies for all kind of reasons. Usually power and/or financial gain. I think that in such a world being sceptical is good. It might evenmake it easier for God to do miracles because if you believe about anything then every true miracle od offset with 100 fake ones. True or false is in the eye of the beholder.
It's not that hard to post a vision you never had. Would it be believed? Depends on what forum I post. If it fits their doctrine it's true if not it's a vision of satan.
I know absolutely nothing about lomarah's friends. How can I know it was real or fake? By just verifiying it with the Bible. Even that won't work because everyone with decent Bible knowledge can write such a thing.
I understand, but you must have faith. If one puts Jesus before miracles then one should be safe, so Jesus first then miracles. But if one puts miracles before Jesus then they are in danger, for in todays times there are many false miracle workers and the antichrist will use false miracles, so if one seeks after the miracles before Jesus, they will be deceived easilly.
It is Christ who does the calling, the preacher (ET or not) is just a relay tower through which the call is sent - and the Christian to be is made aware of the call that he then receives.
The Christian who gives his life to Christ doesn't look at the pastor when he says: Jesus! Rescue me! He looks at Jesus in his heart, or looks at Jesus through the message, given by the messenger.
The Angels protect the messenger, like soldiers protecting a communication's tower. If the tower falls, is the message not hindered? If it is hindered - reception of that message is hindered.
A faulty communication's tower, with a slightly garbled message is better than no tower at all when you are trying to send out a simple S.O.S.
"Submit. Obtain. Salvation."
Of course, like all communication's equipment, its much, much better with a clearer, more accurate message. :thumbsup: It is through the better equipment that you get to hear even better, and even more accurate, and clearer messages like Universal Reconciliation.
Amen Lefein
I am edified! :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 07, 2010, 12:14:06 AM
Amen Lefein
I am edified! :thumbsup:
Huh! edified? I thought you meant the same as lefein, that even an ET preacher can do miracles, that it may colden the heart, but faith and love in Christ still exists.
Also, I believe as Aleax said, "Who has perfect theology?" God looks n the heart. I did not notice any greater dimension of God's love towards me after I became convinced of UR. He always loved me, and
I saw healings and deliverance in my service to the Lord long before- even at a time when I was very legalistic and short sighted in my understanding of the gospel.eagle
Not sure I get your point Thinktank :dontknow:
My point was that even when my understanding was unfruitful, the Lord still moved upon and through my imperfect heart and soul, loving me- and I loving Him. We cannot always discern what is in the deepest place of someones heart- but God sees it clearly :o) Peace, John
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations. :thumbsup:
Great posts guys. Thanks Eaglesway and Lefein, you explained it very well for me. :dsunny:
Quote from: lomarah on October 05, 2010, 03:07:58 PM
I have been wondering about something lately. Namely why do ET believers/preachers get miracles if what they are teaching is not completely true? I'm not talking about healings and such, but things like angelic protection when preaching their message. For example, I went to a Bible University and a few of our students went on a missions trip to Haiti where they preached the "good news". All of a sudden their eyes were opened and they saw some huge angels and a bunch of little demons and basically they were seeing a spiritual battle going on while a witch doctor gave his life to Christ.
I also just read a similar story about a preacher preaching the "good news" in a prison with mentally insane inmates and his eyes were opened and he saw a bunch of huge angels protecting him. I just don't understand if their "good news" is not exactly the true good news, why does God protect them and their message? (Mind you I don't know exactly what was said by these preachers, if they mentioned anything about eternal hell or whatnot, but I at least know the students were ET believers.)
I find it interesting that in both cases you refer to there is a high incident of demonic activity- perhaps the demons were doing the miracles :mshock:
This has a parallel in the Book of Acts, where the demonic slave girl is following Paul around and saying "these men are messengers of the true God". In some churches today, this girl would be honored as a prophet, but Paul perceived she had a demon who was saying these things.
We should be careful friends not to make the mistake of "other denominations" by attributing the miracles in their gatherings to devils due to their doctrinal differences.
Remember what the Pharisees said to Christ when they attributed his wonders to the work of Beelzebub; "He hath a devil!"
Jesus silenced them; "A house divided against itself cannot stand! Don't blaspheme The Holy Ghost."
There are many mainstream protestant church assemblies that erroneously call tongues (the work of The Holy Spirit) to the devil, just because they are freaked out by it, they forget though that the Charismatic/Pentecostal church is their sister. Likewise, these same groups often say any Catholic is damned to Hell and unsaved due to doctrinal differences between themselves, and their Catholic mother.
High demonic activity is not a litmus test for attributing miracles (which are done by God's power alone, not the power of any pastor, priest, or pewman; ET, or UR it matters not) to their work.
A house divided against itself cannot stand, and a devil does not heal to the glory of Jesus Christ. Miracles are the grace of God on the just, and the unjust - on the ETer and the URer, we are both Christians alike only the ETer is like the mainstream groups who denounce tongues, instead denouncing the grace of God to save all men: But The Father hears their prayers too.
We don't have a monopoly on the works of our Father, just because He has miraculously opened our eyes to the truth of His saving power.
A devil cannot do miracles, he can only do false wonders. Why else does witchcraft cause so much mischief in the life of the crafter? Because the fire he or she plays with is either an illusion...or else it is a false fire that burns, steals, destroys, maims, and blackens - it never heals, it never edifies.
Miracles are always towards a positive goal in God's storyline.
Always is a VERY big word.
If there arises among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder comes to pass, and then he says unto you, Let us follow other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them; You shall not follow the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
(Deu 13:1-3)
So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the LORD had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts. For each one threw down his staff and they turned into serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.
(Exo 7:10-12)
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
(2Th 2:8-10)
Lets say a demon gives cancer. Now the same demon takes away that cancer and so it appears to be a miracle of God, but it was the demon who gave the cancer in the first place.
Just one way of how the demon would be seemingly be able to heal people. That's why I think that a true healer of God should heal every person, not just one or two and them instances being partial healings.
:cloud9: The only true healer of God is Jesus, and there are many reasons why not everyone receives healing in any given situation, and therefore that is not a litmus test for who is and is not a "true healer". My :2c: Blessings....
Lets also be careful not to attribute too much power, or influence to devils.
We shouldn't have to doubt every good thing - fearing that the healing might be a devil's plot. It is a slippery slope.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 08, 2010, 03:16:17 AM
:cloud9: The only true healer of God is Jesus, and there are many reasons why not everyone receives healing in any given situation, and therefore that is not a litmus test for who is and is not a "true healer". My :2c: Blessings....
Yes you are probably right that it is not a guranteed litmus test, but I based on the apsostles who healed all people. I think that they had something special to be able to heal all people. I mean today there is more emphasize on healing the character of the individual, because many illnesses today are caused by deep rooted bondages and fears and events and healing just the physical would only be a temporary healing, but I wonder, how did they heal deep rooted problems back then, perhaps they had a super special healing gift that not only healed the physical but also the history/spirit of the person. :2c:
:cloud9: I doubt the apostles healed everyone (servant not greater than the master), and Jesus didn't either, because he said that He could do no mighty works in His "hometown" because of their unbelief, ie. a prophet has no honor in his own country. That's because of people only looking at the flesh of the person, including Jesus's, instead of the Spirit. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Lefein on October 08, 2010, 03:20:10 AM
Lets also be careful not to attribute too much power, or influence to devils.
We shouldn't have to doubt every good thing - fearing that the healing might be a devil's plot. It is a slippery slope.
I don't want to cause paranoia, just figuiring out how certain non christians are able to heal people without Jesus.
I'm not sure though that a demon does leave once it enters a house. For Jesus said once the strongman enters it requires a strongerman to bind him and spoil his goods and only Jesus is the strongerman. But I wonder how can people in other religions receive healings, perhaps it is a placebo effect :dontknow:
Cardinal, do you think most people are unable to look at the spirit of a person?
That is something that took me a long time to be able to do.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM
:cloud9: I doubt the apostles healed everyone (servant not greater than the master), and Jesus didn't either, because he said that He could do no mighty works in His "hometown" because of their unbelief, ie. a prophet has no honor in his own country. That's because of people only looking at the flesh of the person, including Jesus's, instead of the Spirit. My :2c: Blessings.....
:cloud9: In opposition I'd say that Jesus said that greater works we will do because I go unto the father.
Also the word said he could not do great work in caupernaun because of their unbelief,
save healed a few people. . You might emphasize the few and denote that this means he did not heal all, but I say how many are sick in a town? only a few? and if the few be sick then it is only a few that be healed. :2c:
:cloud9: @ Molly....It is hard to see the Spirit of Him in the flesh. How much more so it must have been for those who knew Him as a boy, or as his natural father's son? And so they said, "Is not this the carpenter's son?" Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 08, 2010, 03:38:08 AM
:cloud9: @ Molly....It is hard to see the Spirit of Him in the flesh. How much more so it must have been for those who knew Him as a boy, or as his natural father's son? And so they said, "Is not this the carpenter's son?" Blessings....
Yeah people do this all the time. They have certain expectations of people and when they are not met either in the posotive or negative, they don't like it.
Who are you to walk around doing miracles, we know this boy he comes from gailee nothing good comes from that place.
Also his townpeople like you said, thought of him as the local carpenter not the miracle man of God.
Quote from: thinktank on October 08, 2010, 03:36:38 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM
:cloud9: I doubt the apostles healed everyone (servant not greater than the master), and Jesus didn't either, because he said that He could do no mighty works in His "hometown" because of their unbelief, ie. a prophet has no honor in his own country. That's because of people only looking at the flesh of the person, including Jesus's, instead of the Spirit. My :2c: Blessings.....
:cloud9: In opposition I'd say that Jesus said that greater works we will do because I go unto the father.
I don't think that's opposition, I don't think it relates because they had a different "job" to do.
Also the word said he could not do great work in caupernaun because of their unbelief, save healed a few people. . You might emphasize the few and denote that this means he did not heal all, but I say how many are sick in a town? only a few? and if the few be sick then it is only a few that be healed. :2c:
That might be true, but I personally tend to think it was healing He was referring to, because if Father intended for there to be anything happening there of a general nature applicable to all, like turning water to wine, then I think He would have done something like that anyway for HIS purposes. Healing is personal in nature, and faith, or the lack thereof, affects it. My :2c: Blessings....
QuoteBut I wonder how can people in other religions receive healings, perhaps it is a placebo effect
Remember the Truth, and the True Gospel; The same God who saves all men, is the same God who heals all men in his due time, and his due pleasure, for his due glory.
Rain falls on the just, and the unjust alike - so too does the mercy and grace of God.
God even loves the pagans, and will heal them - especially since they do not know who to call upon for the healing they need. God loves, and pities those who are ignorant of him very much, in the same way that we soften our own hearts when we see someone who is handicapped.
That might be true, but I personally tend to think it was healing He was referring to, because if Father intended for there to be anything happening there of a general nature applicable to all, like turning water to wine, then I think He would have done something like that anyway for HIS purposes. Healing is personal in nature, and faith, or the lack thereof, affects it. My 2c Blessings....
cardinal
That's a good point and I belive it to be true but to me when the verse says he could not do great works, that to me doesn't mean physical healings, but rather the greater work which is to believe that God sent his son in the flesh and thou shalt be saved.
For God healed all, but not all believed in him that he was the messiah their saviour, so to me salvation is the greater work, even though healing is spectacular and I hope and pray that the church will rise up with healing in her wings and be able to heal the sick in the masses.
What is easier to say
Son thy sins be forgiven or to say rise up and walk.
Too God, saying rise up and walk is easy, but to say son thy sins be forgiven takes a massive sacrifice.
blessings to you also cardinal in Jesus name :bigGrin:
:cloud9: Hey bro....you noticed, LOL.....did you know that praying, "in Jesus's name" means to pray in His nature? And on that subject :hijacked:; to God, a name denotes the nature of a person or thing, thus all the names in there mean something relevant to our walk, spiritually speaking.
I think probably the RCC took the life out of that concept and substituted their theology, since it's where so many of the "church's" things have been passed down from. My :2c: Carry on....Blessings....
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 07, 2010, 08:33:31 AM
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations. :thumbsup:
Well, since I got no response - to you guys think all these stories are real?
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 08, 2010, 03:09:59 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 07, 2010, 08:33:31 AM
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations. :thumbsup:
Well, since I got no response - to you guys think all these stories are real?
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations. But even if they were real, there is nothing in them to say they last forever, so they do not "confirm" ET. I think aionian fire is something beyond our faculties of perception, so even in such visions, God may be using representative imagery to show the torment of people in the grips of sin, oppression, murder, abuse, disease, starvation- IN THE NOW. I have misenterpreted visions God gave me for periods of years until the true meaning was revealed to me at the proper time. I prefer the clear testimony of the word of God.
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)
Quote from: eaglesway on October 08, 2010, 04:09:26 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 08, 2010, 03:09:59 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 07, 2010, 08:33:31 AM
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations. :thumbsup:
Well, since I got no response - to you guys think all these stories are real?
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations. But even if they were real, there is nothing in them to say they last forever, so they do not "confirm" ET. I think aionian fire is something beyond our faculties of perception, so even in such visions, God may be using representative imagery to show the torment of people in the grips of sin, oppression, murder, abuse, disease, starvation- IN THE NOW. I have misenterpreted visions God gave me for periods of years until the true meaning was revealed to me at the proper time. I prefer the clear testimony of the word of God.
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)
I find that interesting eaglesway, do you feel the angels and demons are just representative imagery and not necessarily "real"? I am asking because I have been wondering about these things lately.
To firstborn888 - I said earlier, I do believe the girls at my school were telling the truth and it could not have been a hallucination since they all saw the same thing.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 08, 2010, 03:09:59 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 07, 2010, 08:33:31 AM
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations. :thumbsup:
Well, since I got no response - to you guys think all these stories are real?
There seems to be human imaginations, demonic imaginations and holy spirit revelation.
What often happens is there is a mixture of these three things.
The human imagination comes from God, for we are made in his image, hence scientists and inventors who never even heard of Jesus can receive revelation's of truth that advance science and make the world a better place to live. It is unclear why that some human imagination such as various dreams are not good, perhaps it is because we have the power to do good or evil, the tree. The scripture says that false prophets being exposed will cry because they prophecied deceits from their own imaginations and are not a prophet at all but are a sheperd who keeps cattle.
Demonic influences are rare but do happen to people, such as budda, and various other religions that deny jesus christ came in the flesh. John said test the spirit if they be of God, he who denies that Jesus christ has come in the flesh has a spirit of antichrist.
I recently came across a pop video that contained revelation, it appeared to be from God's holy spirit, but after praying the source was from a demon who in this video is mocking non belivers of the faith. I then found a video that the singer in question revealed a demon threatened her in her dreams.
holy spirit revelation is what wrote the bible and some prophecies by christians. This is a problem to find out what is holy spirit breathed and what is not, I belive it takes skill and a gift of God to discern between false and true. :2c:
I believe demons are real. I don't think all the things seen in dreams and visions are real tho. I believe the scriptures are real and the very word of God- but I don't think my understanding is complete. So when I see or read about stories of visions and dreams and experiences that seem to confirm things like ET, or some other things that I believe the word is clear about- I look at them to see if they could be valid but misinterpreted by the receiver- or if they are just deceptions some enemy is trying to sow among the wheat.
I don't automatically accept or reject anything unless I have already previously evaluated it or the Lord has already given me clear understanding.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2010, 04:44:05 AM
I don't automatically accept or reject anything unless I have already previously evaluated it or the Lord has already given me clear understanding.
:cloud9: And learning to do this "simple" exercise is oft times the difference in receiving from the Lord, and not. :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2010, 04:44:05 AM
I believe demons are real. I don't think all the things seen in dreams and visions are real tho. I believe the scriptures are real and the very word of God- but I don't think my understanding is complete. So when I see or read about stories of visions and dreams and experiences that seem to confirm things like ET, or some other things that I believe the word is clear about- I look at them to see if they could be valid but misinterpreted by the receiver- or if they are just deceptions some enemy is trying to sow among the wheat.
I don't automatically accept or reject anything unless I have already previously evaluated it or the Lord has already given me clear understanding.
Good post, you showed sharp eagle eyed discernment :thumbsup:
Thank you my brother. Grace leads to edification....."to the praise of the glory of His grace".
Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2010, 04:44:05 AM
I believe demons are real. I don't think all the things seen in dreams and visions are real tho. I believe the scriptures are real and the very word of God- but I don't think my understanding is complete. So when I see or read about stories of visions and dreams and experiences that seem to confirm things like ET, or some other things that I believe the word is clear about- I look at them to see if they could be valid but misinterpreted by the receiver- or if they are just deceptions some enemy is trying to sow among the wheat.
I don't automatically accept or reject anything unless I have already previously evaluated it or the Lord has already given me clear understanding.
Good post :grin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 09, 2010, 09:24:36 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2010, 04:44:05 AM
I believe demons are real. I don't think all the things seen in dreams and visions are real tho. I believe the scriptures are real and the very word of God- but I don't think my understanding is complete. So when I see or read about stories of visions and dreams and experiences that seem to confirm things like ET, or some other things that I believe the word is clear about- I look at them to see if they could be valid but misinterpreted by the receiver- or if they are just deceptions some enemy is trying to sow among the wheat.
I don't automatically accept or reject anything unless I have already previously evaluated it or the Lord has already given me clear understanding.
Good post :grin:
Agreed. :smile:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2010, 04:44:05 AM
I believe demons are real. I don't think all the things seen in dreams and visions are real tho. I believe the scriptures are real and the very word of God- but I don't think my understanding is complete. So when I see or read about stories of visions and dreams and experiences that seem to confirm things like ET, or some other things that I believe the word is clear about- I look at them to see if they could be valid but misinterpreted by the receiver- or if they are just deceptions some enemy is trying to sow among the wheat.
I don't automatically accept or reject anything unless I have already previously evaluated it or the Lord has already given me clear understanding.
personally i dont like the word ""demon"" but i do beleive in evil spirits.
here is a pic of a ""demon""" :sigh:
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_demon_pic__03743-269x246.jpg)
I personnally do not believe in satan and evil spirits as sentient beings with evil spiritual power. I used to believe in these and the fruit of it was fear which is not a fruit of the Spirit.
Since being revealed the true nature of these "beings", I've been freed from fear.
I used to fear them even though I intellectually knew Christ had power over them and experienced different evil spirit experience which I now see as discerning of the "evil power" that is in the world created by the evil and sin in man.
So now, knowing that there is no "superpowerfull evil spiritual being named Satan which hates me", I'm not afraid anymore because Christ has defeated adversity which was found in HIS flesh and He is defeating the adversity which is found in my flesh daily.
I know that is not a concensus around here and I mean no disrespect toward those who believe in Satan with a capital "S".
Bless you.
Although I do believe in Satan and spirits with a capital S- I am by no means offended :o).
I do not however, have any fear of them, they were forged in the furnace of God to accomplish His purposes and we have been givens weapons, mighty through God, like the gospel, the sword of the spirit, the shield of faith, the name of Jesus, etc with which to destroy(render powerless) the works of the devil. I simply believe all of this is a part of another furnace within which we are being purified as gold, so that we can hammered into a lampstand fit to shine through the ages of the restoration of all things- as sons of God.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:18-19)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:6-7)
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
(1Jn 2:14)
Of course, I do believe we overcome the wicked one(external) by overcoming the wicked one(internal) within.
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS US!!! :laughing7:
:cloud9: There's a lot of truth in that statement, LOL.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 09, 2010, 05:06:53 PM
I personnally do not believe in satan and evil spirits as sentient beings with evil spiritual power. I used to believe in these and the fruit of it was fear which is not a fruit of the Spirit.
Since being revealed the true nature of these "beings", I've been freed from fear.
I used to fear them even though I intellectually knew Christ had power over them and experienced different evil spirit experience which I now see as discerning of the "evil power" that is in the world created by the evil and sin in man.
So now, knowing that there is no "superpowerfull evil spiritual being named Satan which hates me", I'm not afraid anymore because Christ has defeated adversity which was found in HIS flesh and He is defeating the adversity which is found in my flesh daily.
I know that is not a concensus around here and I mean no disrespect toward those who believe in Satan with a capital "S".
Bless you.
I am in agreement my friend, I also believe that the word "satan" has become more of a christian legend, Adversary would be a better and more understood word. My :2c:
I think Adversary is a better word/name also.
It seems to me that you have to do some strange things with the gospels if you do not believe that "Legion" spoke from sentient beings within the man Jesus set free. "Do not torment us before the time", etc. As well as the temptation on the mount. Is this all myth or allegory within your paradigm? Not historical?
This is why (forgive me) I make a point at times of re-iterating the unity between history and prophecy. Physical and spiritual. The importance of past, present, and future. The fact that what God is saying in THE NOW is tied together with what He has done in the past, and what He has said in the scripture historicly amplifies what He is saying to us eternally(in the spirit).
If an ostrich finds comfort with his head in a hole, that does not mean that at some point a lion might not come along. Jesus gave some specific attention to the casting out of demons and the subject of the Adversary that goes beyond a principle of the carnal mind and the old man/nature.
7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short."
--Rev 12
I'm also one that sees satan as an adversary within me rather than a leader of evil spirits around me. And as I come in to that, there are other areas, such as where Card pointed out, that are difficult to explain. I don't beleive "S"atan tempted Jesus at all. I believe the carnal adversary within him made and attempt to rise up and he held it at bay with knowing the word, but turned it away completey by personally engaging and commanding it to return to it's proper alignment.
I guess that's what walking in faith is all about. It's about accepting what you can see even though it may create questions in other areas where you can't yet see. I also believe the church has turned this into a whole organized career of fear. People have built great reputations by emphasizing and focusing on deliverance and demons.
The only thing about that guy who is said to have the legion in him that drove the pigs into the sea, in the end, one of the last things Scripture makes about his condition after he was delivered was . . .he was of a sound mind. I still think there's a greater connection between demonic activity and mental bondage than all the hoopla the church has made it out to be.
"If" my pursuit is toward the goal "in" Christ through experiencing his nature of love, life and light . .these subjects of death and darkness really don't have any influence on me regardless of how inflated they may become.
What I "do" know is, my MIND is to be in subjection to my SPIRIT before anything spiritual can flow in, through or out of me, period.
So just because my head can't come up with an explanation to certain matters, is not justification to reject what my spirit is trying to reveal to me . . . the rest will come in his time. For now, in faith, I can only receive what I'm seeing. And in this case, I see satan to be the carnal nature of this realm. Anyone who was born into flesh experiences carnality on one level or another within them . . .including Jesus himself when he walked on this earth.
And for now, to me the demons are nothing more than the offspring of that carnality that will take us over if we don't throw ourselves into the higher power of the Love of the Father. Love casts out all fear. Fear thrives for unclean beings. When left up to it's own powers, fear will cause those unclean beings to find the shortest route to death as possible.
So . . .anyone ever ask . . .where'd the demons go after they ran the pigs off into the sea? Did they then go for the fish in the sea? Did they become bound to the realm of the waters from then on? Or were they like the wicked witch of the west and when water made contact with them, they were destroyed and no longer existed?
If there is any truth that demons are as real as the church embraces them to be . . .shouldn't there also be an easy explanation to where they went? We see the easy explanation of what happened with the guy they were in . . . he was returned to a sound mind.
I'm just sayin'.
Unless Angels are a metaphor for the good parts of our mind, there is indeed a person who is The Adversary, who accuses us before the throne of God.
The flesh is riddled with death, but someone had to have killed us, or else convinced us to kill ourselves. Us being the human race.
Evil spirits, and demons - principalities and powers in the celestial spheres; the invisible supernatural realm superimposed over the natural - are busy waging spiritual war. The ones in the pigs, most likely went back to their post after being rebuked by the voice of God himself. I'm sure they needed to recover, and at the very least where forced to obey and leave.
It seems strange, that an ailment of the mind could be contagious from one human, to a whole herd of swine...I don't think it was therefore, an ailment in his flesh that was the demon, but a demon, or group of them rather, that caused the ailments in his flesh, and mind.
I believe we're once again trying to find a carnal explanation to a spiritual event. It is the only place in the gospel that demons ask to go in something else, there is much to say about the symbolism of pigs or why they jumped in the water when "infected/possessed" by "legion".
In my understanding, in a recent past, people with chemical defects in their brain were rejected and persecuted as demon possessed while today with the advance of medecine, they take drugs and live "normally".
Sure delivrance is better than taking drugs but it goes on to show that or these are demon possession and that these demons are affected by drugs or they are deep hurt of the spirit which creates these sicknesses of the mind.
Demons are finite, they can only work with what they are given to work with.
A mind that is pure, they have to corrupt, if a corrupt mind is broken - it is against their nature to repair it for more intelligent use.
Someone who is born with a very handicapped mind is of little use to a Demon to use. But a brilliant mind that they can corrupt, or shatter - is their delightful delicacy.
Hitler was an artist who was scorned by his peers, and tormented by his own inferiority in a hopeless country - yet he was brilliant, and it showed through the gift of his ability to speak eloquently. He abused it, and many people believe he became demon possessed (as do I also). They saw the opportunity to use an already corrupt mind, a manipulatable pawn - and so they used him to further devilish goals. The Final Solution, occult practices, aryan humanism, euthanasia, selective breeding, racism on grievous scales, terrible warfare...etc.
While we should be careful not to "over-carnalise the spiritual", we must not forget that there is a real flower behind the metaphor that we find in her petals, a dead flower or rose it matters not.
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 09, 2010, 05:06:53 PM
I personnally do not believe in satan and evil spirits as sentient beings with evil spiritual power. I used to believe in these and the fruit of it was fear which is not a fruit of the Spirit.
Since being revealed the true nature of these "beings", I've been freed from fear.
I used to fear them even though I intellectually knew Christ had power over them and experienced different evil spirit experience which I now see as discerning of the "evil power" that is in the world created by the evil and sin in man.
So now, knowing that there is no "superpowerfull evil spiritual being named Satan which hates me", I'm not afraid anymore because Christ has defeated adversity which was found in HIS flesh and He is defeating the adversity which is found in my flesh daily.
I know that is not a concensus around here and I mean no disrespect toward those who believe in Satan with a capital "S".
Bless you.
This is the root, that Satan causes fear, so sticking ones head in the sand is easier than facing the enemy. But God gives us courage to face our goliaths, sticking ones head in the sand won't make the enemy go away, I encourage you to pray for courage to overcome and also ask others to pray for you. Of course you don't have to face the enemy, God grants some of us a life where the demonic realm does not inerfere with our lives, but some of us have to do spiritual battle and don't have much choice but to face the enemy and send him running, the key is that we do not have to battle, it is christ within us that overcomes. If you are terrified of Satan then pray for Gods mercy that you never have to deal with him or his demonic hordes at least until you develop the courage.
A lot of christians need to battle their flesh what you call adversity, but there are lot of people out there who need deliverance from dark forces, that have invaded their lives and even houses. These people need the true gospel message and the power of Christ to cast out demons, for these people do not simply have temptation, their lives are full of darkness which only the power of christ can deliver them from. My concern is that when they turn to christians for help, the best thay can do is send them to counsellor or mind control medicine the carnal world's way (only band aids), of dealing with dark forces and not the gospel victorious way, you know deep in your heart that I speak the truth.
Lefein, You are seemingly making statements as they are fact rather than your observations. This is where condemnation often takes shape. You say they can only work with what they are given to work with . . .I'm sorry but where does Scripture teach this?
One with a broken mind a demon will over look? Again, how would you come to know this? These aren't facts, merely your observations and you're presenting your point as though it's based on fact.
For me, the whole goal in all of our lives is to be free from the bondage of our "self" and walk in the spirit, not after the flesh. It's so easy to get lost in debates on things like this because some choose to embrace literal while others choose to pursue spiritual.
"if" spiritual is set above natural, why then emphasize the natural? Why must we try to impress on others the literal when it's clear everyone's natural mind can come to conclusions of their own volition. Yet it's the spiritual implications that are hidden from our understanding and can only be revealed through spiritual relationship with the Father.
If the demons are real, what now? Should we cower in fear? Should we warn the world of their power? Should we take advantage of the situation and build great reputations on how to rid the world of them? Or should we just brush them off as we continue to pursue our goal of maturing our relationship into the deeper things of God?
For me . . ."if" they are as we've been taught, then Jesus really "was" tempted by "S"atan, the greatest adversary against God. . .and yet that would mean that darkness actually would have something that Light desired otherwise, how else could light be tempted at all in the first place? It's all connected on one level or another.
And "if" demons are real and I'm just full of poopiness, is it that big of a deal anyway? Do we not have the power to walk on serpents and not be harmed?
Quote from: thinktank on October 09, 2010, 11:42:00 PM
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 09, 2010, 05:06:53 PM
I personnally do not believe in satan and evil spirits as sentient beings with evil spiritual power. I used to believe in these and the fruit of it was fear which is not a fruit of the Spirit.
Since being revealed the true nature of these "beings", I've been freed from fear.
I used to fear them even though I intellectually knew Christ had power over them and experienced different evil spirit experience which I now see as discerning of the "evil power" that is in the world created by the evil and sin in man.
So now, knowing that there is no "superpowerfull evil spiritual being named Satan which hates me", I'm not afraid anymore because Christ has defeated adversity which was found in HIS flesh and He is defeating the adversity which is found in my flesh daily.
I know that is not a concensus around here and I mean no disrespect toward those who believe in Satan with a capital "S".
Bless you.
This is the root, that Satan causes fear, so sticking ones head in the sand is easier than facing the enemy. But God gives us courage to face our goliaths, sticking ones head in the sand won't make the enemy go away, I encourage you to pray for courage to overcome and also ask others to pray for you. Of course you don't have to face the enemy, God grants some of us a life where the demonic realm does not inerfere with our lives, but some of us have to do spiritual battle and don't have much choice but to face the enemy and send him running, the key is that we do not have to battle, it is christ within us that overcomes. If you are terrified of Satan then pray for Gods mercy that you never have to deal with him or his demonic hordes at least until you develop the courage.
A lot of christians need to battle their flesh what you call adversity, but there are lot of people out there who need deliverance from dark forces, that have invaded their lives and even houses. These people need the true gospel message and the power of Christ to cast out demons, for these people do not simply have temptation, their lives are full of darkness which only the power of christ can deliver them from. My concern is that when they turn to christians for help, the best thay can do is send them to counsellor or mind control medicine the carnal world's way (only band aids), of dealing with dark forces and not the gospel victorious way, you know deep in your heart that I speak the truth.
I do not fear satan anymore because I do not believe he is what I was taught he is. It is not putting my head into the sand, I was revealed the truth of UR after having fought with the contradictions of hell for years because I cannot put my head in the sand, I'm one of those who cannot help but live what they believe in whatever that is. The fear of satan went away because I experienced the Truth that made me free.
It is a conviction laid on my heart by the Father for His own purpose.
QuoteLefein, You are seemingly making statements as they are fact rather than your observations. This is where condemnation often takes shape. You say they can only work with what they are given to work with . . .I'm sorry but where does Scripture teach this?
Satan had to ask God for permission before he did anything with Job, and even then, he couldn't make anything out of thin air, he can't create ex-nihilo.
He can't enter where you don't open a door, if he can't create his ammo, and he can't get ammo where he is not allowed inside, and if he can only go where God allows, then he can only work with what he is given.
Logic.
QuoteOne with a broken mind a demon will over look? Again, how would you come to know this? These aren't facts, merely your observations and you're presenting your point as though it's based on fact.
How often is a person born, or naturally made to be as a vegetable used by a demon for a dwelling?
These are not dumb spirits, they know that a car without tires, or gas isn't going to get them very far down the road.
QuoteFor me, the whole goal in all of our lives is to be free from the bondage of our "self" and walk in the spirit, not after the flesh. It's so easy to get lost in debates on things like this because some choose to embrace literal while others choose to pursue spiritual.
Then don't fight me...Work on yourself.
Quote"if" spiritual is set above natural, why then emphasize the natural? Why must we try to impress on others the literal when it's clear everyone's natural mind can come to conclusions of their own volition. Yet it's the spiritual implications that are hidden from our understanding and can only be revealed through spiritual relationship with the Father.
Because the Spiritual and the Natural are not two separate Realities. The whole world isn't a metaphor to be taken any which way we wish.
Fish do indeed have bones, and rocks hurt when they hit your foot...You can make a metaphor out of these facts, but the facts still exist and should not be ignored.
QuoteIf the demons are real, what now? Should we cower in fear? Should we warn the world of their power? Should we take advantage of the situation and build great reputations on how to rid the world of them? Or should we just brush them off as we continue to pursue our goal of maturing our relationship into the deeper things of God?
Obviously you should not cower in fear, but it is poor stewardship, and I daresay stupidity to ignore the enemy at your gate, even if you are superior to him in might.
We are not to become devil minded, but we don't outright ignore the enemy when he attacks us.
We are told to submit to God, and resist the Devil, and he shall flee.
It does not say; Submit to God, ignore the Devil, and he'll get bored and go away.
QuoteFor me . . ."if" they are as we've been taught, then Jesus really "was" tempted by "S"atan, the greatest adversary against God. . .and yet that would mean that darkness actually would have something that Light desired otherwise, how else could light be tempted at all in the first place? It's all connected on one level or another.
"Tested" is a more accurate translation of the Greek word "perisathenai" or literally translated "to be tried"
Jesus went to be tried. Just because you are tried, doesn't mean you desire what is being offered.
I could be 'tempted', or offered by someone to sleep with an aids filled man...but I hardly desire to accept that offer. Jesus knew well what Satan was offering, and he knew well enough to not desire it. It is not a sin to be tried.
QuoteAnd "if" demons are real and I'm just full of poopiness, is it that big of a deal anyway? Do we not have the power to walk on serpents and not be harmed?
I think you are assuming that I have attacked you...This is false.
But clearly dear friend, that is the whole point...We have power over the devil, and darkness. But just because we are mighty, doesn't mean we have liberty to metaphorise the enemy into a philosophical equivalence to the flesh.
Job's flesh didn't walk up to God and say - He only loves you because you bless him! "Someone" did, that someone is called The Accuser.
The Accuser isn't some force who is full of dark glory...But he is a pest enough to not ignore if he infests a certain area of our lives. He isn't our flesh either - otherwise he'd have been called our flesh.
Quote"Tested" is a more accurate translation of the Greek word "perisathenai" or literally translated "to be tried"
Jesus went to be tried. Just because you are tried, doesn't mean you desire what is being offered.
I could be 'tempted', or offered by someone to sleep with an aids filled man...but I hardly desire to accept that offer. Jesus knew well what Satan was offering, and he knew well enough to not desire it. It is not a sin to be tried.
Er, I'd hardly find any temptations in sleeping with a man, even my flesh is in adversity agaisnt that sort of thought.
Anything that tempt us has to be enticing, else it is no temptation at all.
Every "test" faced by Jesus in the desert were about evading the cross and reigning in the flesh, this is the test Jesus faced in the garden too and it is the test we have to live through every day.
To be tried doesn't mean to be enticed. It means to be accused in some way or form, or to be put under some act by which you may be accused later, a trial.
I accuse you Jesus, by stating that if you are really, and I mean really The Son of God...throw yourself down from this temple! If you don't you aren't really The Son of God...so ha...
Or in this scenario:
Hey...I accuse you of being weak because you didn't yell back at this guy, you're so pitiful!
*Hey you! #*(#@!*
Ah-Ha! Lookie God, I told you he had a potty mouth! Some Christian indeed!
---
Being enticed is only one of the multiple ways in which one can be tried. Satan is quite the lawyer, he has more than one trick up his sleeve when it comes to trying to bring the Defendant (us) down.
Quote from: LefeinHey...I accuse you of being weak because you didn't yell back at this guy, you're so pitiful!
*Hey you! #*(#@!*
Ah-Ha! Lookie God, I told you he had a potty mouth! Some Christian indeed!
Yes, in other words, we are put in a no win situation.
But, Jesus is all about win/win and it is he who justifies us.
Galatians 1:10
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Quote from: Lefein on October 10, 2010, 12:38:39 AM
To be tried doesn't mean to be enticed. It means to be accused in some way or form, or to be put under some act by which you may be accused later, a trial.
I accuse you Jesus, by stating that if you are really, and I mean really The Son of God...throw yourself down from this temple! If you don't you aren't really The Son of God...so ha...
Or in this scenario:
Hey...I accuse you of being weak because you didn't yell back at this guy, you're so pitiful!
*Hey you! #*(#@!*
Ah-Ha! Lookie God, I told you he had a potty mouth! Some Christian indeed!
---
Being enticed is only one of the multiple ways in which one can be tried. Satan is quite the lawyer, he has more than one trick up his sleeve when it comes to trying to bring the Defendant (us) down.
I'm not argueing that you're wrong about the trials but that everything you say can be said of the adversity in the flesh. It is the pride in me which accuses me of being weak in not answering someone.
I wasn't arguing either. I was just reinforcing that the flesh while our biggest enemy, is not our only enemy.
:cloud9: Having been in deliverance ministry in the beginning of my walk, I can't see it any other way, but literal demonic spirits. The Lord had to teach me and lead me in that, as it was before almost any in the churches even believed in it being necessary. That's my experience and my :2c:. I have also been shown a heart of man application as to origin, which I won't belabor here right now.
One episode: As a home health person, I was sent to an elderly couple one day many years ago. The woman had advanced Parkinsons. When I took her into the bathroom to get her personal needs attended to (she was wheelchair bound), I asked her privately if I could pray for her, feeling an urgency since she was not going to be a regular patient for me since I was filling in that day.
She said, in an eerily creepy voice, "Oh, NOooo, I don't want you to pray for me. I don't want you to pray for me at all."
Lunchtime rolled around, and as she required feeding, I asked her if she wanted a particular food, and was puzzled by her lack of a reply. Her husband said, "Honey, she can't speak anymore, she hasn't spoken to anyone in 20 years." :mshock:
The next trip to the bathroom took a much different turn, as I realized that I been conned by what was in her. I never saw her again. Blessings....
Quote, Lefein "Satan had to ask God for permission before he did anything with Job, and even then, he couldn't make anything out of thin air, he can't create ex-nihilo.
He can't enter where you don't open a door, if he can't create his ammo, and he can't get ammo where he is not allowed inside, and if he can only go where God allows, then he can only work with what he is given.
Logic."
I must remember it was Jehovah who set the whole thing up, it was not the Adversary who came up with the cause and circumstance.
And as Nathan has pointed out in sevearl other posts as well as this one, the "mind" is what is tested. I agree. It was the the "mind" in Genesis 3 that "saw"
that caused her(the mind, the woman)( my reasoning) to take;
Pauls writings say much about the "mind" that it is weak to wiles, until the "mind" of Christ is birthed(ICor. 2:16).
2Co 11:3 and I fear, lest, as the serpent did beguile Eve in his subtilty, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in the Christ; The teachings of Roman 7 and 8 speak much of the mind.
The Adversary is very real, but as to pinning down an identity, remains a mystery to me
Quote from: Cardinal on October 10, 2010, 03:34:11 AM
:cloud9: Having been in deliverance ministry in the beginning of my walk, I can't see it any other way, but literal demonic spirits. The Lord had to teach me and lead me in that, as it was before almost any in the churches even believed in it being necessary. That's my experience and my :2c:. I have also been shown a heart of man application as to origin, which I won't belabor here right now.
One episode: As a home health person, I was sent to an elderly couple one day many years ago. The woman had advanced Parkinsons. When I took her into the bathroom to get her personal needs attended to (she was wheelchair bound), I asked her privately if I could pray for her, feeling an urgency since she was not going to be a regular patient for me since I was filling in that day.
She said, in an eerily creepy voice, "Oh, NOooo, I don't want you to pray for me. I don't want you to pray for me at all."
Lunchtime rolled around, and as she required feeding, I asked her if she wanted a particular food, and was puzzled by her lack of a reply. Her husband said, "Honey, she can't speak anymore, she hasn't spoken to anyone in 20 years." :mshock:
The next trip to the bathroom took a much different turn, as I realized that I been conned by what was in her. I never saw her again. Blessings....
Here's what I don't understand though. If we can be controlled by something other than ourselves then how are we still accountable for our actions? I think it was Paul who said to submit to God and resist the devil and he will flee from us, right? Was it too late for her to do that for herself?
Quote from: lomarah on October 10, 2010, 09:00:24 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 10, 2010, 03:34:11 AM
:cloud9: Having been in deliverance ministry in the beginning of my walk, I can't see it any other way, but literal demonic spirits. The Lord had to teach me and lead me in that, as it was before almost any in the churches even believed in it being necessary. That's my experience and my :2c:. I have also been shown a heart of man application as to origin, which I won't belabor here right now.
One episode: As a home health person, I was sent to an elderly couple one day many years ago. The woman had advanced Parkinsons. When I took her into the bathroom to get her personal needs attended to (she was wheelchair bound), I asked her privately if I could pray for her, feeling an urgency since she was not going to be a regular patient for me since I was filling in that day.
She said, in an eerily creepy voice, "Oh, NOooo, I don't want you to pray for me. I don't want you to pray for me at all."
Lunchtime rolled around, and as she required feeding, I asked her if she wanted a particular food, and was puzzled by her lack of a reply. Her husband said, "Honey, she can't speak anymore, she hasn't spoken to anyone in 20 years." :mshock:
The next trip to the bathroom took a much different turn, as I realized that I been conned by what was in her. I never saw her again. Blessings....
Here's what I don't understand though. If we can be controlled by something other than ourselves then how are we still accountable for our actions? I think it was Paul who said to submit to God and resist the devil and he will flee from us, right? Was it too late for her to do that for herself?
You probably think of demons as being like those in horror movies. Demons are more subtle than that, apart from some instances in the bible such as the man with legions and the boy etc. These days these instances are kept behind closed doors and often the person in question was involved with the occult and gave permission for the demons to enter their house.
But your average joe might have unclean spirits of lust, pride, a religious person might have a spirit of pride, antichrist spirit etc. Trying to understand the relationship between the carnality of the mind and unclean spirits is difficult and I think this is what people in the church have difficulty with because the scripture shows that we battle not flesh and blood, but also teaches that a man is tempted after he is enticed by his own lusts, so we have seemingly 2 different teachings that are contrary to each other. It takes holy spirit revelation to understand how they work. :2c:
As for the old woman she was probably tired which allowed the spirit to dominate her own spirit. That's a good indication if one has an unclean spirit is if they fell they are battling against their own self all the time, no peace.
Quote from: lomarah on October 10, 2010, 09:00:24 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 10, 2010, 03:34:11 AM
:cloud9: Having been in deliverance ministry in the beginning of my walk, I can't see it any other way, but literal demonic spirits. The Lord had to teach me and lead me in that, as it was before almost any in the churches even believed in it being necessary. That's my experience and my :2c:. I have also been shown a heart of man application as to origin, which I won't belabor here right now.
One episode: As a home health person, I was sent to an elderly couple one day many years ago. The woman had advanced Parkinsons. When I took her into the bathroom to get her personal needs attended to (she was wheelchair bound), I asked her privately if I could pray for her, feeling an urgency since she was not going to be a regular patient for me since I was filling in that day.
She said, in an eerily creepy voice, "Oh, NOooo, I don't want you to pray for me. I don't want you to pray for me at all."
Lunchtime rolled around, and as she required feeding, I asked her if she wanted a particular food, and was puzzled by her lack of a reply. Her husband said, "Honey, she can't speak anymore, she hasn't spoken to anyone in 20 years." :mshock:
The next trip to the bathroom took a much different turn, as I realized that I been conned by what was in her. I never saw her again. Blessings....
Here's what I don't understand though. If we can be controlled by something other than ourselves then how are we still accountable for our actions? I think it was Paul who said to submit to God and resist the devil and he will flee from us, right? Was it too late for her to do that for herself?
:cloud9: Because we're only accountable for what we know, ie. have revealed to us by the Spirit. Most people were never taught about deliverance, much less deliverance for Christians, so they don't know. So they are easy prey for the enemy of our soul. And since most of the churches seem to think that a Christian doesn't need deliverance, then once again, they become easy prey.
The thing is, and what you can not get very many to believe, is that we all need to go thru deliverances, there is no shame in it, He lowered us into the dust realm, which is the serpent's meat! So he is happily consuming us, if we are not wise as the serpent.
And another interesting or quite shocking revelation for me was that what I thought was just a part of my personality, was actually something in my flesh. This is what Paul was talking about when he said that that he didn't want to do, he did.
Well, what made him do what he didn't want to do? The sin that was in his members. To sin is to miss the mark, the mark is the mind of Christ, the mind of Christ, is thinking about things the way God thinks about them. Paul said it's not the idol (sin), it's the spirit behind the idol. Anything we allow any part of our triune being to be in subjection to, the same is an idol, and it has a spirit behind it. Take not an unclean thing into your house, lest your worship that thing. It's not only our wood and stone houses He's talking about there. Twenty first century Christians think the Buddists, ISlamists, Catholics, to name a few, are the idolators, not realizing that idolatry is alive and well in their PERSONAL members.
If thy eye offend thee......well when our eye offends us is when the eye is being used as a gate into the city within us, to overthrow the King that resides there. Same way with the hand, ect. Whatever you give to be ruler over you, the same is your master. My :2c: Blessings....
Yes, that makes much sense Cardinal. One thing I never thought about before is that we all need deliverance. It's so true though, thanks for opening my eyes to that. I guess when I think of deliverance I am still thinking about movies like the exorcist which freak the heck out of me. But I have read many stories of people having been delivered from an evil spirit by someone and then the spirit entering back into them because they are unwilling to give up a particular sin. I have also read stories about people who were quite mentally out of it and then with a simple lifestyle change (eg devoting their lives to helping others) they became of sound mind.
I guess i'm just confused as to how deliverance works and why some people need others to deliver them. I am an avid believer in being able to change ourselves (with God's help of course). The whole submit to God and resisit the devil deal. So I just don't understand how or why some people need intercession?
My :2c:
There are different reasons. The devil comes to steal, kill and destroy(enforce and celebrate death and bondage) but Jesus is destroying the "works of the devil"- delivering, healing, celebrating life and freedom. Sometimes people have a breach in their natural armor do to something they have participated in, or perhaps due to the way they were raised, like abuse, or witchcraft in the home. Sometimes people are afflicted from birth by a spirit that causes a physical affliction. According to Jesus one blind man (or was it the lame man) was as He was "so that God might be glorified".
I look at it like this. Not everyone gets sick. Not everyone who gets sick needs or gets supernatural healing. But some do need it and get it. Why? The answers are varied but it is so. I think deliverance is much like that. There are all kinds of opinions on whether and to what degree a Christian can be afflicted by an unclean spirit. I am not sure about that myself, but I am sure that when the body of Christ is functioning properly and a person receives "salvation" (sozo-deliverance, healing) in the fullness of the Spirit demons can't hang around.
I'm still not convinced it's all that. According to some of your comments about how vulnerable people are to demons, you'd think the first thing Jesus would have done then when he first called the disciples would be to have them go through a "deliverance". ESPECIALLY JUDAS.
For me, it again questions the power of the gift of salvation. I too have been on both sides of the deliverance ministry. And I see how much the church credits demons for mere human cravings. It's not the person that did that . . .they've just got a spirit of lust, a spirit of anger a spirit of . . .fill in the blank . . .
Our minds once again lie to us about the power of the Truth. Asking Jesus in to your heart isn't enough . . .you need us to anoint you with oil and call out the demons. If anything, I beleive the purpose for the "cleansing" that Jesus manifested in the examples Scripture gives is as a SIGN to others that he has power over EVERY force, seen and unseen. No where does it show that it was the Christians, the followers of Christ that needed demonic deliverance like the church seems to believe.
I still believe this is 99% mental control and 1% demonic. If my head is in it's proper alignment with the Spirit, there will be no "demonic" activity to manifest because I still see that the adversary is my head . . .my mind. And there is still much untapped and unexplainable power that our minds have that can manipulate the atmosphere around us that man has not even touched the surface of discovering.
And I think when someone has a broken mind, they mess with areas in their subconscious that they know nothing about, it affects their surroundings . . mind over matter . . .
Either way, I think we as a body have given too much power to the enemy with this and we pass everything off as a demonic spirit rather than taking responsibility for our own actions, our own dominion and our own authority.
But that's just me.
Recently, there was a young boy who told me he was afraid of demons at night and he asked me if I was afraid of them too.
I said no; They're afraid of me!
Quote from: Nathan on October 11, 2010, 04:28:58 PM
I'm still not convinced it's all that. According to some of your comments about how vulnerable people are to demons, you'd think the first thing Jesus would have done then when he first called the disciples would be to have them go through a "deliverance". ESPECIALLY JUDAS.
For me, it again questions the power of the gift of salvation. I too have been on both sides of the deliverance ministry. And I see how much the church credits demons for mere human cravings. It's not the person that did that . . .they've just got a spirit of lust, a spirit of anger a spirit of . . .fill in the blank . . .
Our minds once again lie to us about the power of the Truth. Asking Jesus in to your heart isn't enough . . .you need us to anoint you with oil and call out the demons. If anything, I beleive the purpose for the "cleansing" that Jesus manifested in the examples Scripture gives is as a SIGN to others that he has power over EVERY force, seen and unseen. No where does it show that it was the Christians, the followers of Christ that needed demonic deliverance like the church seems to believe.
I still believe this is 99% mental control and 1% demonic. If my head is in it's proper alignment with the Spirit, there will be no "demonic" activity to manifest because I still see that the adversary is my head . . .my mind. And there is still much untapped and unexplainable power that our minds have that can manipulate the atmosphere around us that man has not even touched the surface of discovering.
And I think when someone has a broken mind, they mess with areas in their subconscious that they know nothing about, it affects their surroundings . . mind over matter . . .
Either way, I think we as a body have given too much power to the enemy with this and we pass everything off as a demonic spirit rather than taking responsibility for our own actions, our own dominion and our own authority.
But that's just me.
I totally agree, I've seen these kinds of manifestations, I've chased some with the name of Jesus and if I do not believe there are demons, I sure believe there is something spiritual and mysterious about evil and it IS a power.
It is just not intelligent and doesn't have an agenda. Evil is not a being, it is a powerful power until Jesus came in that is.
QuoteRecently, there was a young boy who told me he was afraid of demons at night and he asked me if I was afraid of them too.
I said no; They're afraid of me!
Hehe, once heard a preacher in Africa who was talking about sorcerers, demons and black magic and said that if Jesus was given ALL authority and ALL power, that means these sorcerers have NONE.
:laughing7:
Hi Nathan,
I hope you will grant that my brief comments were not indicating that I see widespread demon possession everywhere :o). I was just saying that for people who become afflicted by spirits, there are a variety of reasons.
I believe people are naturally protected against demons in general- God did not create us to be random receptacles of any ol spirit that drifts by. However, I have dealt with demonic afflictions and demonic possession on numerous occasions, and seen the power of faith in the name of Jesus work to set a person free- totally transformed. That is my testimony, not a theory I am proposing. Who knos, maybe I am deluded, but I don't think so, and I think the scriptures testify to these things as well. Peace, John
Quote from: eaglesway on October 12, 2010, 12:26:29 AM
Hi Nathan,
I hope you will grant that my brief comments were not indicating that I see widespread demon possession everywhere :o). I was just saying that for people who become afflicted by spirits, there are a variety of reasons.
I believe people are naturally protected against demons in general- God did not create us to be random receptacles of any ol spirit that drifts by. However, I have dealt with demonic afflictions and demonic possession on numerous occasions, and seen the power of faith in the name of Jesus work to set a person free- totally transformed. That is my testimony, not a theory I am proposing. Who knos, maybe I am deluded, but I don't think so, and I think the scriptures testify to these things as well. Peace, John
I'll testify to that John :thumbsup:
Quote from: lomarah on October 11, 2010, 03:37:51 PM
Yes, that makes much sense Cardinal. One thing I never thought about before is that we all need deliverance. It's so true though, thanks for opening my eyes to that. I guess when I think of deliverance I am still thinking about movies like the exorcist which freak the heck out of me. But I have read many stories of people having been delivered from an evil spirit by someone and then the spirit entering back into them because they are unwilling to give up a particular sin. I have also read stories about people who were quite mentally out of it and then with a simple lifestyle change (eg devoting their lives to helping others) they became of sound mind.
I guess i'm just confused as to how deliverance works and why some people need others to deliver them. I am an avid believer in being able to change ourselves (with God's help of course). The whole submit to God and resisit the devil deal. So I just don't understand how or why some people need intercession?
:cloud9: Lomarah, when I first came to the Lord He opened my eyes to 2 principles which He showed me all the way thru from Genesis to Revelation. They were, deliverance and the fullness, opposites, if you will. I had 5 legal pads of notes and chaining scriptures when He was done.
I personally believe there is a difference between evil spirits and demons, but I lack the words to explain it. As for why you need someone to deliver you, you don't, always. If your heart is turned towards Father, it's as simple as recognizing a thought was not yours, coming against it on the outside of you, and if it persists, coming against it on the inside of you.
This is done by putting your hand on your heart area and commanding anything not like the Lord out, and loosing the fire of the HG on it. This is my personal experience. I think one of the reasons it's not discussed even among those who know of it, is because of the stigma that gets attached by those that don't understand it, and because it is humbling, especially to those who think or have been taught by their denomination, that Christians can't "have anything".
I'm talking evil spirits here, not demons, in the above scenario. People with true demonic possession have a tough time getting free without a direct intervention of the Lord Himself or the assistance of another believer.
They exit the body by coughs, that rise up out of the heart of you, like air escaping that causes you to cough. I've heard of people having them leave them with vomiting, ect. I think part of it is in just how real the Lord wants it to be to you, so you KNOW something left you, if you need a faith builder that when you spoke it, it happened.
Other times, just the realization that a particular dream meant something was in the "house" unwanted, was enough to be delivered. Sometimes it takes a fast, but I don't think it's as much for Him as it is for ME to focus and show my willingness to die the death, so to speak. He reveals things thru different means, and it's up to the seeker of Him to be alert and pressing in.
As for delivering someone, I learned from Him, not to command anything out, EVEN IF I KNEW IT WAS THERE, unless He told me to. When there is no true repentance, or when the person refuses to increase in the Lord in the weak area, you can make their state worse than when you started. The Lord leads, we follow. The abuses of it in the few churches that had a glimmer, missed Him in that simple area.
Is it my focus? No. Do I see devils at every turn? No. Am I ALWAYS listening and watching, in case He might speak or otherwise direct my path in the direction of ridding myself or someone else of a tare? ASOLUTELY. It's a big part of how we decrease so that He can increase, and I want this over so He can be all in all of ME, to begin with. IF we rule (over WHAT exactly, it's NOT each other) with Him, we shall reign with Him. I'll share some more, if anyone is interested. Blessings....
Well, I'm interested!
You should have your own thread Card, just your posts!
And Brother Willie, too!
Building tabernacles?
---
Anyway...It is interesting Cardinal, it makes me run back through some of my experiences, though they aren't perhaps specifically 'exorcistic' in nature. I have felt glares from outside and around me while praying for something really bold before...Almost as if Satan himself knew it was going to be answered, and hated it. I'd never felt glares while praying before. It wasn't just like that subtle feeling of condemnation that you get when you ask for something and you "feel-hear" this idea that "you don't deserve this, you're a bastard to ask for it!"...I felt an outright glare.
Yes please Cardinal! The coughing thing, I had heard of that before too. And I have often felt something at the back of my throat, ready to come out and wondering if that is what it was... but I have never experienced the coming out... then again I have never commanded anything to come out. The whole thing does creep me out a bit because it's so foreign to me (and of course scary movies about these things don't help either :mshock:). But anything that's not of Him needs to come out now or later and i'd rather it be now and He could be All in All in me so post away sister!
Btw, I have also been discovering more and more recently what you said about people doing things without the Lord's direction. Even if it "seems" like the right thing to do, if God didn't tell you to do it then it's not! (I believe this includes sharing spiritual things with people, correct me if i'm wrong?)
All those who are led by the Spirit, even these are the sons of God.
The Spirit blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you dont kno where it is coming from or where it is going to so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
I only do that which I hear from my Father.
Quote from: Lefein on October 13, 2010, 05:55:48 AM
Building tabernacles?
---
Anyway...It is interesting Cardinal, it makes me run back through some of my experiences, though they aren't perhaps specifically 'exorcistic' in nature. I have felt glares from outside and around me while praying for something really bold before...Almost as if Satan himself knew it was going to be answered, and hated it. I'd never felt glares while praying before. It wasn't just like that subtle feeling of condemnation that you get when you ask for something and you "feel-hear" this idea that "you don't deserve this, you're a bastard to ask for it!"...I felt an outright glare.
:cloud9: Yes, opposition, even if you can't see it, is a given. People would never be able to sleep nights if they knew the true state of things, ie. what was around them, and everywhere they go. I know the first 2 months of my walk, I didn't, because He had opened my spiritual eyes. He had to "supernaturally" deliver me of fear; without it I would have surely lost my mind.
Turns out, that was the plan, LOL. Had to "lose" mine to receive His. Once I was delivered of it, I had to stand up to a demon that was after my friend. Once raised up in His authority, truly knowing who Christ was in me and who I was in Christ, it was a whole new "ballgame" for the next 3 years He had anointed me to walk in deliverance ministry. Blessings....
Quote from: CardinalPeople would never be able to sleep nights if they knew the true state of things, ie. what was around them, and everywhere they go.
I often have had this feeling of bright light surrounding me, especially when I am trying to accomplish something that is important to me. Once, when things were particularly bad around me, I had this feeling of a heavy [and comforting] robe on my shoulders. I know the light is cutting through something but I have never seen what, maybe it's what you are describing.
Quote from: lomarah on October 13, 2010, 02:46:52 PM
Yes please Cardinal! The coughing thing, I had heard of that before too. And I have often felt something at the back of my throat, ready to come out and wondering if that is what it was... but I have never experienced the coming out... then again I have never commanded anything to come out. The whole thing does creep me out a bit because it's so foreign to me (and of course scary movies about these things don't help either :mshock:). But anything that's not of Him needs to come out now or later and i'd rather it be now and He could be All in All in me so post away sister!
:cloud9: Scary movies aside......this is one reason I feel we need to understand these things. True story. I was getting my clinicals in, in a nursing home. I was only there for 3.5 weeks. Anyway, my first midnite shift there, there was an RN, and one CNA on duty. I had done home health for some time already, so I asked if the RN would just give me a list of rooms to do, since I didn't need training, and that way the other staff wouldn't be so far behind because of me. So she did and they thought I would start at room 17, but I started at room 1 since I didn't know the patients.
So I went in and there was an obviously mentally deficient woman in the bed, naked, uncovered and in need of some serious clean up. She had tardive dyskinsia, I could tell right off, her tongue hanging out of her mouth, repeating over and over, "Help me, I'm in hell."
I put my hand on her head, and asked the Lord to remove anything that He could at this time, when I commanded them out. I commanded out anything that was not like God, and asked her to cry out to Jesus in her head (she was non-verbal other than repeating things over and over) and ask Him to save her.
She began to cough and I knew she was being delivered, and then she began to settle down, movements wise, and I told her I was going to clean her up and dress her, which I did. I then asked her if she was hungry (she was SO skinny), and I felt she was trying to say yes, so I went out to the RN and asked her what I could give the woman in room 1 to eat. She looked startled, and asked me WHY I had gone to that room FIRST???
I said, so I wouldn't get in the way of the other staff and slow her down. She then asked me how I knew the woman wanted something to eat. I said, "Because she told me???" She told me where the Ensures were kept, and told me she'd be right there in a minute. I got it, and when she came she got as far as the door and stopped dead in her tracks, speechless, and tears started running down her face. She yelled for the other staff to come and see this.
My first thought was, "BUSTED", because I thought when I was cleaning the woman, if she can only say one thing over and over, then at least I'll make it "work" for her, so I taught her the "Jesus" song, ie. J_E_S_U_S, You are my everything, J_E_S_U_S, my everthing. Since places get federal money, most health institutions I've worked for, go balistic if you try to "push" or even say Jesus to anyone in there, so I figured I was in trouble.
So the woman is clean, dressed, arms folded, singing that song, sipping on an Ensure, when the RN walked to the door, then the other staff, who is also crying. Now the other part of the story. Except for repeating usually non-sensical things non-stop, the woman had not spoken in 20 years. She was only in there from the local State mental hospital, because of bed sores. She had been dumped there by her husband 40 years ago, right after giving birth to her son she never got to see. He had her committed. She had had shock treatments and every psychotropic drug known to man, most of which back then had severe side effects worse than the condition they were supposed to be treating, so she lost what little she had left.
As they were to find out 2 weeks later, she had been raped by staff members over the years in the hospital, abused by her husband, and really was "in hell" for 40 years. She was, because of all this, combative and it normally took 3 people to clean her up, or feed her and she would rip her clothes off and hurt staff, and throw food, ect.
So their seeing her, stable, clean, arms folded, singing about Jesus, with me giving her sips of Ensure, caused their reactions. I was oblivious, since no one had told me. They were going to go in and help me, since they thought it was my LAST room to go to. So imagine their shock.....and the RN told me she wanted to talk to me before I went into another room, so I'm thinking, I'm probably gone now.
She confronted me by asking me what I did in there. I told her the truth. She and the other staff came to my bible study the next week, and received the baptism in the Spirit.
God is good. I didn't see the RN at work after that for several days, but she drew me aside to tell me all the nursing staff was talking about the "remarkable change" in this woman, who was now talking intelligently to them, telling them what all had happened to her. She told the RN to tell me she loved me (my clinicals were over in there). We serve an amazing God and He wants us to BELIEVE His Word and walk in it like we do. He gave us authority, Amen? Blessings..
PS. Because of the Jesus and the federal money thing, no one but me, and the RN and other staff ever knew what the catylyst was for the "remarkable change" in the woman.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 13, 2010, 05:29:39 PM
All those who are led by the Spirit, even these are the sons of God.
The Spirit blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you dont kno where it is coming from or where it is going to so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
I only do that which I hear from my Father.
Amen eaglesway.
wow, we do surely share the same spirit.
Now, John, He is wanting us to not only hear the spirit and be led by the spirit — but to WALK EVERY STEP BY THE SPIRIT.
In Him we live and breathe and have our being.
Cardinal that story made me cry and really touched me as I have been in the nursing home/home care profession for the past few years. I wish God would deliver them all. I mean I know He will eventually. But oh the horrible things that have happened to people, it's so sad.
Why is it that it's usually the ones who have been abused though? Like serial killers and abusive people have all usually had horrible childhoods. (But some people who had horrible childhoods choose a better life.)
I always thought of it like Jesus said the truth will set us free, they are filled with the lies that they are worthless and that nobody could love them, that all people are abusive, etc and that is what makes them act out? I am wondering because I have always felt that there is more than one way to cast out evil spirits: the way you described Card, and replacing the lies with the Truth? (Forgive me i'm just trying to figure all this out...)
I really appreciate your posts! :dsunny:
No offense but I find America a strange country.
My first thought was, "BUSTED", because I thought when I was cleaning the woman, if she can only say one thing over and over, then at least I'll make it "work" for her, so I taught her the "Jesus" song, ie. J_E_S_U_S, You are my everything, J_E_S_U_S, my everthing. Since places get federal money, most health institutions I've worked for, go balistic if you try to "push" or even say Jesus to anyone in there, so I figured I was in trouble.
A supposedly christian nation and religious freedom doesn't even allow one to mention the name of Jesus in a place where they need Jesus the most.
Thats like Saudi Arabia, banning Mohmamed or a church where one cannot worship Jesus.
What does that mean? Does it mean that America worships mammon before Jesus and doesnt want people in hospitals to be healed, bad for business?
or is America a nation of hypocrosy?
Quote from: lomarah on October 13, 2010, 10:47:48 PM
Cardinal that story made me cry and really touched me as I have been in the nursing home/home care profession for the past few years. I wish God would deliver them all. I mean I know He will eventually. But oh the horrible things that have happened to people, it's so sad.
Why is it that it's usually the ones who have been abused though? Like serial killers and abusive people have all usually had horrible childhoods. (But some people who had horrible childhoods choose a better life.)
I always thought of it like Jesus said the truth will set us free, they are filled with the lies that they are worthless and that nobody could love them, that all people are abusive, etc and that is what makes them act out? I am wondering because I have always felt that there is more than one way to cast out evil spirits: the way you described Card, and replacing the lies with the Truth? (Forgive me i'm just trying to figure all this out...)
I really appreciate your posts! :dsunny:
:cloud9: I think the way you described works also. Every situation is different if only slightly. All I had to do was read the truth about something the first time, and I was delivered that night. God looks at the motive of the heart.
I believe as Pentecost is the inpart realm, a walk is coming where the power that will anoint the words the sons of God utter, will literally set the others free. In fact, I think they will be set free by His presence in those that make it to the top of the mountain, without them even needing to say anything. I had one taste of this, and I believe that is what is coming, when the veil is not only doctrinally rent, but literally rent in individuals that have been seeking His face.
BUT: going from glory to glory doesn't mean we discard what works because we see something greater, it means it builds upon the foundation that was laid as all Truth does. So we remain open to do as the Lord would have us do, being all things to all people in whatever situation we find ourselves.
Not sure what your other question is....? Blessings....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 11, 2010, 05:22:02 PM
Recently, there was a young boy who told me he was afraid of demons at night and he asked me if I was afraid of them too.
I said no; They're afraid of me!
That's the spirit :thumbsup:
Quote from: CardinalI had one taste of this
Can you describe this more?
Quote from: thinktank on October 13, 2010, 11:25:31 PM
No offense but I find America a strange country.
My first thought was, "BUSTED", because I thought when I was cleaning the woman, if she can only say one thing over and over, then at least I'll make it "work" for her, so I taught her the "Jesus" song, ie. J_E_S_U_S, You are my everything, J_E_S_U_S, my everthing. Since places get federal money, most health institutions I've worked for, go balistic if you try to "push" or even say Jesus to anyone in there, so I figured I was in trouble.
A supposedly christian nation and religious freedom doesn't even allow one to mention the name of Jesus in a place where they need Jesus the most.
Thats like Saudi Arabia, banning Mohmamed or a church where one cannot worship Jesus.
What does that mean? Does it mean that America worships mammon before Jesus and doesnt want people in hospitals to be healed, bad for business?
or is America a nation of hypocrosy?
None taken. So do we :laughing7: Seriously, though, it has to do with separation of church and State which IMO has been distorted to remove God from the very places that need Him the most, like no prayer in schools. One company owner I worked for, fired Christians. The secretary came up to me my first week there, and said, "I wanted to warn you because I think you're one of us."
I said, "Well, if us is a Christian, then yes you're right, LOL." She told me to hide it, or I would be fired. I figured I'd last about a week (and I was almost right: have this "bad" habit of praying for patients). :winkgrin: Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 12:37:47 AM
Quote from: CardinalI had one taste of this
Can you describe this more?
:cloud9: In a nutshell, the Lord sent me to the west coast on a plane, 2 weeks after 9/11, for the feast of tabernacles being celebrated at a pastor's church I was familiar with. He moved doing a work when I was there, and when I returned I awoke at 6 am to find my X was crying, said he didn't know what was wrong with him, he'd been crying all night beside me.
I had never seen him cry, and I first thought he was making it up for some strange reason (history there) until I got up 3 hours later to make breakfast and he was still crying, and jerking, and I was stunned to find he was repenting to God for some things, saying he'd been a bitter man all his life, ect.
So it finally sunk in, he was really doing something, and I asked the Lord what was wrong with him. He said, "It's the bread of My presence." Apparently, He can pull back the veil in His time and place, and we can be unaware of it, except for the effect it has on someone in close proximity to us. :dontknow:
I didn't even remember that the shewbread, one name for it, was the bread of His presence, I had to look it up. I was astounded, and went back in and told him it was the Lord doing a work in him, to continue to cry out to the Lord, and prayed for him. He had him a bawling mess until 1 pm that day, so he had cried for about 12 hours, if he started as soon as I went to sleep.
This, and a dream I had, is why I believe this is what's coming, full time after we have been "changed". I think it's the spirit of Holiness, that is going to make the difference. I have felt His holiness one time, and you can't do anything BUT bawl. Blessings....
wow, your a great example for us all. Keep up the good work Gods servant :thumbsup:
I said, "Well, if us is a Christian, then yes you're right, LOL." She told me to hide it, or I would be fired. I figured I'd last about a week (and I was almost right: have this "bad" habit of praying for patients). winkgrin Blessings....
QuoteThis, and a dream I had, is why I believe this is what's coming, full time after we have been "changed". I think it's the spirit of Holiness, that is going to make the difference. I have felt His holiness one time, and you can't do anything BUT bawl. Blessings....
That is why I absolutely believe that no one can outright reject God when in His glorious presence, it doesn't make sense.
Only possible reaction is immediate repentance.
Those denying this are making me doubt about their own repentance. Maybe they are the same who thinks that no hell = I can sin like there's no tomorrow?
Quote from: CardinalThis, and a dream I had, is why I believe this is what's coming, full time after we have been "changed". I think it's the spirit of Holiness, that is going to make the difference. I have felt His holiness one time, and you can't do anything BUT bawl. Blessings....
I believe that, which is why he just gives us a 'taste' now, otherwise the old wineskins would burst...
Hebrews 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world [age] to come,..
Quote from: thinktank on October 14, 2010, 01:18:17 AM
wow, your a great example for us all. Keep up the good work Gods servant :thumbsup:
I said, "Well, if us is a Christian, then yes you're right, LOL." She told me to hide it, or I would be fired. I figured I'd last about a week (and I was almost right: have this "bad" habit of praying for patients). winkgrin Blessings....
:cloud9: Thanks for the encouragement, but I'm only an example of His unmerited favor/saving grace at work. Otherwise, I'd only be an example of what NOT to do.... :mblush:
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 02:03:14 AM
QuoteThis, and a dream I had, is why I believe this is what's coming, full time after we have been "changed". I think it's the spirit of Holiness, that is going to make the difference. I have felt His holiness one time, and you can't do anything BUT bawl. Blessings....
That is why I absolutely believe that no one can outright reject God when in His glorious presence, it doesn't make sense.
Only possible reaction is immediate repentance.
Those denying this are making me doubt about their own repentance. Maybe they are the same who thinks that no hell = I can sin like there's no tomorrow?
:cloud9: Exactly....me, too. Fear and wanting to run like they did in the garden would be the other reaction possible, but heart rejection, I just can't see it happening, either. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 02:37:04 AM
Quote from: CardinalThis, and a dream I had, is why I believe this is what's coming, full time after we have been "changed". I think it's the spirit of Holiness, that is going to make the difference. I have felt His holiness one time, and you can't do anything BUT bawl. Blessings....
I believe that, which is why he just gives us a 'taste' now, otherwise the old wineskins would burst...
Hebrews 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world [age] to come,..
:cloud9: Yes, we couldn't contain it. I also asked Him once, why the taste of this or that, why didn't it stay, and He said that just like when we wake up and stretch our members first thing in the morning before we get up and walk, so too does He "awaken" different parts of Him in us, leading to HIM getting up and walking, in us. Blessings....
Speaking of miracles...
ALL 33 MEN RESCUED IN CHILI
:icon_queen:
3 O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol;
You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
--Psa 30
Quotegoing from glory to glory doesn't mean we discard what works because we see something greater, it means it builds upon the foundation that was laid as all Truth does. So we remain open to do as the Lord would have us do, being all things to all people in whatever situation we find ourselves.
:cloud9:
Thinktank you are right about the US being a strange country and Canada (where I live) is pretty much the same. Why would people NOT want the sick to be healed?!? You know what's even crazier though is that if any person of another faith wanted to pray or do some type of incantation it wouldn't be nearly as frowned upon as a Christian saying a prayer for someone in Jesus' name. (Here in Canada, not sure about US.) It's ridiculous. Canada is a country that tries to pride ourselves on having cultural and religious acceptance but we don't even accept the main religion of our own land. :dontknow:
Of course Canada is not all bad - hockey and toques, eh? :2thumbs:
Quote from: lomarah on October 14, 2010, 03:55:55 PM
Quotegoing from glory to glory doesn't mean we discard what works because we see something greater, it means it builds upon the foundation that was laid as all Truth does. So we remain open to do as the Lord would have us do, being all things to all people in whatever situation we find ourselves.
:cloud9:
Thinktank you are right about the US being a strange country and Canada (where I live) is pretty much the same. Why would people NOT want the sick to be healed?!? You know what's even crazier though is that if any person of another faith wanted to pray or do some type of incantation it wouldn't be nearly as frowned upon as a Christian saying a prayer for someone in Jesus' name. (Here in Canada, not sure about US.) It's ridiculous. Canada is a country that tries to pride ourselves on having cultural and religious acceptance but we don't even accept the main religion of our own land. :dontknow:
Of course Canada is not all bad - hockey and toques, eh? :2thumbs:
Multiculteralism is cultural genocide.
Wake up now or after your culture is dead.
Once a culture has been destroyed it is almost impossible to resurrect.
The problem is uncontrolled immigration.
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
Quote from: lomarah on October 14, 2010, 03:55:55 PM
Quotegoing from glory to glory doesn't mean we discard what works because we see something greater, it means it builds upon the foundation that was laid as all Truth does. So we remain open to do as the Lord would have us do, being all things to all people in whatever situation we find ourselves.
:cloud9:
Thinktank you are right about the US being a strange country and Canada (where I live) is pretty much the same. Why would people NOT want the sick to be healed?!? You know what's even crazier though is that if any person of another faith wanted to pray or do some type of incantation it wouldn't be nearly as frowned upon as a Christian saying a prayer for someone in Jesus' name. (Here in Canada, not sure about US.) It's ridiculous. Canada is a country that tries to pride ourselves on having cultural and religious acceptance but we don't even accept the main religion of our own land. :dontknow:
Of course Canada is not all bad - hockey and toques, eh? :2thumbs:
Multiculteralism is cultural genocide.
Wake up now or after your culture is dead.
Once a culture has been destroyed it is almost impossible to resurrect.
The problem is uncontrolled immigration.
I heartily disagree with that commentary Molly, what is so great about our culture that we'd want to ressurect it?
Let the new culture arise.
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 06:00:19 PMLet the new culture arise.
Eventually a new culture arises.
But mixing causes destruction of a culture.
YLTGen 119 therefore hath one called its name Babel, for there hath Jehovah mingled the pronunciation of all the earth, and from thence hath Jehovah scattered them over the face of all the earth.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 14, 2010, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 06:00:19 PMLet the new culture arise.
Eventually a new culture arises.
But mixing causes destruction of a culture.
YLTGen 11
9 therefore hath one called its name Babel, for there hath Jehovah mingled the pronunciation of all the earth, and from thence hath Jehovah scattered them over the face of all the earth.
The new culture is arising and quickly--babylon--it's really an old culture--confusion.
Just talking to a friend who has just discovered her 15 year old is an alcoholic.
And, everything in the new culture is rewarding this behavior in her child.
This might seem hard to believe but 50 years ago this child would not have been exposed to the forces which are causing this.
I am afraid to have a daughter in this culture. :crywipe:
Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 06:23:37 PMI am afraid to have a daughter in this culture. :crywipe:
There are always problems of some kind. People often talk about a few decades back as if the world was free of any problems 30 years ago....
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 14, 2010, 06:26:45 PM
Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 06:23:37 PMI am afraid to have a daughter in this culture. :crywipe:
There are always problems of some kind. People often talk about a few decades back as if the world was free of any problems 30 years ago....
The plan is pretty simple. Flood the country with drugs, movies, and music to commit cultural genocide and soften it up for the next stage--outlaw the culture [Christianity] and flood with immigrants who come from a different culture and take over.
In every culture, we are a kingdom of priests unto God. There is no earthly kingdom that endures, altho, "Blessed is the nation who's God is the Lord". I think we forget sometimes that because of our country(and IMO the Christians in it), with all its imperfections, institutional racism has been overcome; the European continent was rescued from Hitler; the Hebrews were re-patriated to "the land"; the Soviet block evaporated because the people smelled the freedom of America. As I see it, even the so-called church in America is full of contradiction and confusion- "If the salt has lost its savor"- but the Body of Christ is still the salt of the earth and the hope of the world dwells within us. "If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and turn from their evil ways.... I will hear from heaven and heal their land.
As long as the intercessors stand there is hope. Whatever emerges from the chaos of today, will only be visible when the Lord speaks...."Let their be Light"! So all we who call Jesus Lord cry out to Him for the resurrection of the testimony. It is the testimony of God that brings forth justice, mercy, wholeness, holiness and equity in the earth.
For it is time for judgment to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem.
Evrything that can be shaken will be shaken until only that which cannot be shaken remains.
Theirs a whole lotta shakin goin on! :o)
pray and turn!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 14, 2010, 06:50:27 PM
pray and turn!
Repent = turn
Religion = re-turn to a former state
:bgdance:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 14, 2010, 06:47:04 PM
In every culture, we are a kingdom of priests unto God. There is no earthly kingdom that endures, altho, "Blessed is the nation who's God is the Lord". I think we forget sometimes that because of our country(and IMO the Christians in it), with all its imperfections, institutional racism has been overcome; the European continent was rescued from Hitler; the Hebrews were re-patriated to "the land"; the Soviet block evaporated because the people smelled the freedom of America. As I see it, even the so-called church in America is full of contradiction and confusion- "If the salt has lost its savor"- but the Body of Christ is still the salt of the earth and the hope of the world dwells within us. "If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and turn from their evil ways.... I will hear from heaven and heal their land.
As long as the intercessors stand there is hope. Whatever emerges from the chaos of today, will only be visible when the Lord speaks...."Let their be Light"! So all we who call Jesus Lord cry out to Him for the resurrection of the testimony. It is the testimony of God that brings forth justice, mercy, wholeness, holiness and equity in the earth.
For it is time for judgment to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem.
Evrything that can be shaken will be shaken until only that which cannot be shaken remains.
Theirs a whole lotta shakin goin on! :o)
The church must fly like an eagle to be above and not beneath, the head and not the tail. But first must repent or God will deal her many chastisments. The church in America, uk and europe is similar to this church
The Message to Laodicea
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans [1] write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art
lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest,
I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten:
be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:
if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Todays church is similar to that above, would rather turn to earthly goods than the lord, relies more on mans philosophy than that what Jesus said, relies on the government for money, relies on the medical establishment for healing, more interested in new chandaliers and grave stones than healing the sick.
Multiculteralism is cultural genocide.
But hasn't the usa allways been multicultural?
The Irish and the Chinese built the railroads. There's tons of Italians, polish, American Indians (Originals), British and Black Affricans, Jewish and other ethnic groups.
Wake up now or after your culture is dead.
Possibly if there are too many of a certain group that come in, e.g a million chinese come in, it would affect the language and vertain sections of cities.
Once a culture has been destroyed it is almost impossible to resurrect.
Probably, but there are advantages such as new ideas and philosphies (not allways good) interesting folk from other countries. Look at all the Italian resteraunts and mexican dishes, served by the ethnics, yummu food served by the immigrants? New architect designs? New clothes etc.
The problem is uncontrolled immigration.
Yes, to many coming in at the same time, but isnt it challenging to migrate to the USA? A lot of immigrants are illegal, how can they be stopped?
QuoteThe problem is uncontrolled immigration.
Yes, to many coming in at the same time, but isnt it challenging to migrate to the USA? A lot of immigrants are illegal, how can they be stopped?
Shouldn't we be the first to help people come here and escape from whatever they are fleeing from?
North Americans need to get in touch with self-sacrificing love.
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 11:41:56 PM
QuoteThe problem is uncontrolled immigration.
Yes, to many coming in at the same time, but isnt it challenging to migrate to the USA? A lot of immigrants are illegal, how can they be stopped?
Shouldn't we be the first to help people come here and escape from whatever they are fleeing from?
North Americans need to get in touch with self-sacrificing love.
You can't save anyone else while you yourself are being destroyed.
For this reason, immigration was controlled until the 1960's.
It is easier for an overlord [satan] to control confusion than many of one mind.
I believe 'divide and conquer' is the cliche.
QuoteBut hasn't the usa allways been multicultural?
Not really. The idea of melting pot is largely a myth. Until very recently this country was predominantly white European and Christian.
Melting pot meant that Christian Catholics were welcomed by the largely Protestant population. They were more alike than disimilar.
The problem I'd say isn't culture coming in and infecting us, it is that the church is content to stay underground and not convert what comes into its presence.
The Catholics Christianised alot of pagan things, especially the people. Which isn't actually a bad thing to do, Christ took sinners and made them righteous, why not take the holly branch and use it as a teaching tool? (just a thought, bear with me on that)
So, in light of that...We are failing to assimilate the beautiful things that are in culture, and offer them up to Christ who appointed the existences of these nations to begin with.
Take in the wheat, get rid of the chaff, that applies to cultures as well as individuals. We can't do that if all the harvesters and reapers are content to live like moles! Quiet and underground...
Well, you've seen what happens now when Christian missionaries go to Dearborn, MI. Not only are they not welcomed, they are arrested.
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 11:41:56 PM
QuoteThe problem is uncontrolled immigration.
Yes, to many coming in at the same time, but isnt it challenging to migrate to the USA? A lot of immigrants are illegal, how can they be stopped?
Shouldn't we be the first to help people come here and escape from whatever they are fleeing from?
North Americans need to get in touch with self-sacrificing love.
Ideally yes, but how?
There are millions of people on this earth who need food and jobs etc. While the Usa already has a lot of unemployed.
The solution is not drag them over to USa but rather, Get the church over there, to bring the transforming gospel of Christ to all the nations of the world.
At one point in history the Usa was just a large wilderness not fit for living, but through Gods grace he has transformed it through his people, physically and spiritually, but now as the people are in rebellion the USA is losing its power and according to some will no longer be the number one country but fall behind to China. This may in fact be a good thing, so that Americans can focus less on their competitive egos being number 1 and focus more on the lord. The lord might do something like this to bring change :dontknow:
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on October 15, 2010, 12:10:54 AM
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 14, 2010, 11:41:56 PM
QuoteThe problem is uncontrolled immigration.
Yes, to many coming in at the same time, but isnt it challenging to migrate to the USA? A lot of immigrants are illegal, how can they be stopped?
Shouldn't we be the first to help people come here and escape from whatever they are fleeing from?
North Americans need to get in touch with self-sacrificing love.
Ideally yes, but how?
There are millions of people on this earth who need food and jobs etc. While the Usa already has a lot of unemployed.
The solution is not drag them over to USa but rather, Get the church over there, to bring the transforming gospel of Christ to all the nations of the world.
At one point in history the Usa was just a large wilderness not fit for living, but through Gods grace he has transformed it through his people, physically and spiritually, but now as the people are in rebellion the USA is losing its power and according to some will no longer be the number one country but fall behind to China. This may in fact be a good thing, so that Americans can focus less on their competitive egos being number 1 and focus more on the lord. The lord might do something like this to bring change :dontknow:
:2c:
Yet most of earth's richest people are living in the US.
Christians have to sell those billions $ buildings and start feeding the hungry, I think non-christians are right to rebel because christians are fat with the blood of the worlds' poorer.
But yet, I'm canadian...we are perfect. :msealed: :icon_jokercolor:
Yet most of earth's richest people are living in the US.
Christians have to sell those billions $ buildings and start feeding the hungry, I think non-christians are right to rebel because christians are fat with the blood of the worlds' poorer.
But yet, I'm canadian...we are perfect. :msealed: :icon_jokercolor:
I agree give to the poor, this is a worthy cause. In fact there are benefits to giving to the poor, such as God's promise to keep us from evil and he also promises us riches in heaven, so giving to the poor is not just about loving people, there are also selfish benefits too promised by God.
But my quote Q is the attitude that people take, where they look to USA or in fact their own rich neighbourhood and they look upon them with envy, hatred and jealousy. These attributes are not healthy and it seems that today many people have a "bad attitude" towards the rich.
In the old days rich people were well respected as being blessed and people that would be looked upon as living hope that God is good, that he has plenty of resources so that people can be rich. It is also a fact that money is a strong survival instinct, a poor person might look at the rich persons nice car and dream one day of having his own car :cloud9:. So we can see that being rich is not evil as such and can indeed motivate people, but it depends on the attitude the people take. Obviously not all rich people are "good" and use their riches for evil, but to me these rich celebrities and business people seem an ok lot, they might not be mother teresa, but they are not "drug lords", which is good, it means people can be rich doing business with morality and they do not have to be a drug cartel in order to be rich.
Wisdom is the best thing you can give to the poor. It is wisdom that teaches a man how to fish.
Quote from: lomarah on October 09, 2010, 02:09:08 AM
To firstborn888 - I said earlier, I do believe the girls at my school were telling the truth and it could not have been a hallucination since they all saw the same thing.
Minds which are working together can "see" the same things. It happens all the time. Here's a famous example:
"In 1842 at La Salette, in France, two cowherds, an eleven year old boy, Maximin, and a fourteen year old girl, Melanie, saw a sudden flash of light from which a lady appeared, dressed in white and gold, with a cap of roses on her head. She was surrounded by a brilliant light and was weeping. The Lady complained that Sunday was being desecrated and the peasants were blaspheming the saints in swearing. (The Cure d'Ars and other clergy were regularly complaining about these very sins in their sermons). If there was no amendment, there would be great disasters—the harvest would fail and people would starve—as the Lady could no longer restrain her Son from inflicting punishment".
I have heard many many examples, even by family members. More than one person seeing the same thing "in the Spirit" and yet - when there was an accompanying meaning (word/prophecy) it never materializes.
Just sayin' :dontknow:
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 11:54:09 PM
QuoteBut hasn't the usa allways been multicultural?
Not really. The idea of melting pot is largely a myth. Until very recently this country was predominantly white European and Christian.
Until very recently there were no European or Christians.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 17, 2010, 02:30:40 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 11:54:09 PM
QuoteBut hasn't the usa allways been multicultural?
Not really. The idea of melting pot is largely a myth. Until very recently this country was predominantly white European and Christian.
Until very recently there were no European or Christians.
And until very very recently, there was no such thing as Liberty.
And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
(Rev 5:9)
And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
(Rev 14:6)
The biggest lie ever told is that there is not enough to go around. The earth replenishes itself (because of the word of God) at an astounding rate. It is the very wicked stewards of our nation(and the other nations), the rulers of this cosmos and their puppets, who want us to think that the reason things are hard is because there are "too many pigs at the trough". The reason is really that a few wolves at the top are strangling the world economy in the blood of their thefts and corruption.
"We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms...."
"Our weapons are not natural but mighty through God for the pulling down of every stronghold and tower that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God...."
I pray that the aionian gospel of Jesus will be broadcast from mid-heaven, destroying the works of the devil....bringing freedom and justice to men everywhere.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 17, 2010, 07:14:05 PM
And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
(Rev 5:9)
And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
(Rev 14:6)
The biggest lie ever told is that there is not enough to go around. The earth replenishes itself (because of the word of God) at an astounding rate. It is the very wicked stewards of our nation(and the other nations), the rulers of this cosmos and their puppets, who want us to think that the reason things are hard is because there are "too many pigs at the trough". The reason is really that a few wolves at the top are strangling the world economy in the blood of their thefts and corruption.
"We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms...."
"Our weapons are not natural but mighty through God for the pulling down of every stronghold and tower that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God...."
I pray that the aionian gospel of Jesus will be broadcast from mid-heaven, destroying the works of the devil....bringing freedom and justice to men everywhere.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteThe biggest lie ever told is that there is not enough to go around
Of course. The breadbaskets on four continents produce enough to feed the whole world.
Yet, we have paid our farmers not to farm when people in the world were starving to death.
Now the breadbaskets are being taken over by those who would patent the seeds that produce food.
Can you imagine? They would patent life itself if they were given a chance, and then kill you because you violate their patent.
They are examples of the law gone haywire, of the covenant with death.
I personally do not believe there are 7 billion people on the planet [look who's doing the counting. They lie about everything, and they are telling the truth about this?]. But, even if there were, there is still more than enough of everything that all should live like kings.
The love of money is the root of all kings of evil.
Greed is the very antithesis of Grace.
Quote from: Lefein on October 17, 2010, 07:34:12 PM
The love of money is the root of all kings of evil.
Greed is the very antithesis of Grace.
Yes, because money is the currency of Bablyon. And, money is based on paucity.
But, the currency of the kingdom is miracles and grace.
16Then he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude.
17And they did eat, and were all filled: and there was taken up of fragments that remained to them twelve baskets.--Luke 9
Quote from: eaglesway on October 17, 2010, 07:14:05 PM
And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
(Rev 5:9)
And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
(Rev 14:6)
The biggest lie ever told is that there is not enough to go around. The earth replenishes itself (because of the word of God) at an astounding rate. It is the very wicked stewards of our nation(and the other nations), the rulers of this cosmos and their puppets, who want us to think that the reason things are hard is because there are "too many pigs at the trough". The reason is really that a few wolves at the top are strangling the world economy in the blood of their thefts and corruption.
"We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms...."
"Our weapons are not natural but mighty through God for the pulling down of every stronghold and tower that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God...."
I pray that the aionian gospel of Jesus will be broadcast from mid-heaven, destroying the works of the devil....bringing freedom and justice to men everywhere.
Great post Eaglesway, :thumbsup: :thumbsup: you were flying with this one. What we need are more minds that think like this and the resulting faith, which replaces the fear of lack, produces supernatural power for change in the very earth, even producing more gold, water, soil, fruitfull land, you name it, we as saints can claim it and bless with it. Powerfull.
In Jesus name, in Jesus christ name. amen
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 06:40:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 14, 2010, 06:26:45 PM
Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 06:23:37 PMI am afraid to have a daughter in this culture. :crywipe:
There are always problems of some kind. People often talk about a few decades back as if the world was free of any problems 30 years ago....
The plan is pretty simple. Flood the country with drugs, movies, and music to commit cultural genocide and soften it up for the next stage--outlaw the culture [Christianity] and flood with immigrants who come from a different culture and take over.
Yeah, just like back in the 60's the red commies were pushing drugs and rock music to covertly destroy the country, right? :mblush: And "flood with Immigrants who come from a different culture and take over"? A native American would say that sounds familiar. :mshock:
Poetic justice, isn't it?
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 18, 2010, 06:43:46 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 06:40:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 14, 2010, 06:26:45 PM
Quote from: Lefein on October 14, 2010, 06:23:37 PMI am afraid to have a daughter in this culture. :crywipe:
There are always problems of some kind. People often talk about a few decades back as if the world was free of any problems 30 years ago....
The plan is pretty simple. Flood the country with drugs, movies, and music to commit cultural genocide and soften it up for the next stage--outlaw the culture [Christianity] and flood with immigrants who come from a different culture and take over.
Yeah, just like back in the 60's the red commies were pushing drugs and rock music to covertly destroy the country, right? :mblush: And "flood with Immigrants who come from a different culture and take over"? A native American would say that sounds familiar. :mshock:
Poetic justice, isn't it?
Back in the 60's is when they started all this. It wasn't that long ago. They needed to divert the baby boom from anything having to do with politics so they could carry out their agenda in peace.
If the war on drugs has to do with anything other than wiping out the competition, it's a 40 year failure. Otherwise it's a success.
But--Seems to me the baby boom is starting to wake up.
Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 06:57:18 AM
Back in the 60's is when they started all this. It wasn't that long ago. They needed to divert the baby boom from anything having to do with politics so they could carry out their agenda in peace.
If the war on drugs has to do with anything other than wiping out the competition, it's a 40 year failure. Otherwise it's a success.
But--Seems to me the baby boom is starting to wake up.
I saw something heart-breaking on a documentary the other night. It was about "religion in America". It showed a clip of a gentleman, school personnel standing in front of a classroom of 8-10 year old students. Old black and white film. He said, "today we're going to read from Psalms". He proceeded to read about God Almighty, ruler of heaven and earth, to those young ears and minds. It showed them sitting, listening, paying attention to a reading of the Word of God.
Then they bowed their heads and all recited the Lord's prayer.
It then detailed how several families sued, and the process of how open prayer was banned in schools. A congressman then was shown, (a Democrat, I believe) who stated something like "this will go down as one of the darkest days in American history".
It was pretty heart-wrenching. 1962.
Do we really believe satan doesn't have an agenda? Thankfully, God has an even greater plan, or we'd be toast.
If not for the grace of God, we'd all be consumed.
Alot of preachers say that it is God's grace that keeps him from killing us all...This is true I think, but I think there is something more.
If not for the grace of God, we'd all be consumed by the agenda of the Enemy, who seeks to make us slaves to his will.
Years ago, in The Coming World-Wide Famine Is Planned, there was quoted an estimate that if all the land that was arable, that is, capable of growing food, was put into production and all the oceans were sustainably farmed and everything produced maximally, no weather, pests, war, or other factors destroying the food, enough would be produced to sustain more than 13 trillion people.
I really should try to get another copy of 10 Lies About World Famine,or, Top 10 Lies About World Famine (etc.) It clearly showed the problem is bad politics and bad religion.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 07:16:32 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 06:57:18 AM
Back in the 60's is when they started all this. It wasn't that long ago. They needed to divert the baby boom from anything having to do with politics so they could carry out their agenda in peace.
If the war on drugs has to do with anything other than wiping out the competition, it's a 40 year failure. Otherwise it's a success.
But--Seems to me the baby boom is starting to wake up.
I saw something heart-breaking on a documentary the other night. It was about "religion in America". It showed a clip of a gentleman, school personnel standing in front of a classroom of 8-10 year old students. Old black and white film. He said, "today we're going to read from Psalms". He proceeded to read about God Almighty, ruler of heaven and earth, to those young ears and minds. It showed them sitting, listening, paying attention to a reading of the Word of God.
Then they bowed their heads and all recited the Lord's prayer.
It then detailed how several families sued, and the process of how open prayer was banned in schools. A congressman then was shown, (a Democrat, I believe) who stated something like "this will go down as one of the darkest days in American history".
It was pretty heart-wrenching. 1962.
Do we really believe satan doesn't have an agenda? Thankfully, God has an even greater plan, or we'd be toast.
Look - here's the deal. If government run schools allow teachers to lead prayers from the bible then they could (and must/should) allow teachers leading from the qur'an or pagan prayer books or whatever. Follow me so far?
The founders did not found the US on freedom to practice Christianity - they founded upon freedom - period.
In the process though they trampled on the rights of others in a very non Christlike fashion (we all know this do we not?) :dontknow:
Eventually the ideas in the constitution were upheld and blacks other minorities and women etc. got equal rights - something they were denied for centuries in SPITE of the constitution.
When I was a child (early 60's) the principal read "the Lord's prayer" every morning. Soon - he stopped.
Why did he stop? Because finally - constitutional ideas/principles caught up (eventually - just like minorities and women eventually got their rights).
How would you like it if a satanist principal read from the satanic bible every morning in your kid's school? I assume you wouldn't.
That's why officially sponsored prayer is prohibited (in government schools). It's NOT constitutional and has no place whatsoever in
government organizations. We are 100% free to home school or private school our kids in Christian beliefs or Baha'i beliefs or whatever. THAT is freedom of religion.
What ya'll are complaining about is that not everyone wears the label "Christian" and therefore the government can't endorse Christianity. Well, that is as it should be. How else should it be done (pray tell).
I really hope my post helps because it seems that fundamentalist Christianity is one of the most superstitious and close-minded people groups on earth. And I'm a bit shocked that even CUs are caught up in this "us verses them" nonsense.
Thank you for your opinion.
"What ya'll are complaining about is that not everyone wears the label "Christian" and therefore the government can't endorse Christianity." I haven't seen anyone say that.
As far as the "us vs. them nonsense"? "...and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans; for not everyone belongs to the Faith!" 2 Thes. 3:2
I personally don't disagree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone is talking about hating or abusing anyone, or endorsing "fundamentalist Christianity". Believing in a faith that disputes "anything goes"? Wishing for a culture that embraces Jesus Christ and His ways? You bet. And God will bring it about. I believe there's a purpose for the decline/falling away, as He works everything according to His will.
"When your judgments are upon the earth the people learn righteousness", "and the end of the Lord is merciful". Good News!
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
Thank you for your opinion.
"What ya'll are complaining about is that not everyone wears the label "Christian" and therefore the government can't endorse Christianity." I haven't seen anyone say that.
That's what it boils down to though. Atheists complained because a government institution (government schools) were endorsing a specific religious belief system. They were right and the correct changes were made. Yet many Christians disagree with the constitution and want a totalitarian Christian state. Want proof? Virtually none of those bemoaning the removal of Christian prayer from government schools are calling for instating Wiccan prayers or Hindu prayers in public schools.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
As far as the "us vs. them nonsense"? "...and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans; for not everyone belongs to the Faith!" 2 Thes. 3:2
Perfect example. You (apparently) want government schools to endorse Christian prayers and (apparently) label everyone else as abnormal and wicked. The facts of the matter is that many who pray Christian prayers are abnormal and wicked (do you follow current events?) and many who do not are not.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AMI personally don't disagree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone is talking about hating or abusing anyone, or endorsing "fundamentalist Christianity". Believing in a faith that disputes "anything goes"? Wishing for a culture that embraces Jesus Christ and His ways? You bet.
You are free to believe whatever you wish - and so is everyone else. That's the point. The founders fled Christian states fully understanding that state sponsored religion in any form is a recipe for oppression/disaster. That's why Jesus is never mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
And God will bring it about. I believe there's a purpose for the decline/falling away, as He works everything according to His will.
People are seeing through the facade of fundamentalist superstition and so naturally some sects of Christianity will see a decline.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
"When your judgments are upon the earth the people learn righteousness", "and the end of the Lord is merciful". Good News!
Yes! AISI God is interested in practical fruit (equity/fairness/truth telling) etc. etc. - we all know what that means. Loving our neighbor as ourselves fulfills all righteousness. Governmental endorsement of a creedal religious belief system (Christian or otherwise) is completely outside of it's jurisdiction. A free/open society is the best possible scenario for good things to happen. :thumbsup:
Quote from: lomarah on October 09, 2010, 02:09:08 AMI said earlier, I do believe the girls at my school were telling the truth and it could not have been a hallucination since they all saw the same thing.
Here's another case - 7 youths all went through a tunnel to hell - seeing things they were taught and most of those things having no basis in scripture in the first place.
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/7_Jovenes/English_7_Jovenes_Hell.htm
I too disagree with all you said. If you take God out of the founding of this nation you would not have this nation or the Constitution of this nation.
I can tell by your writing that you have no understanding of either the Constitution of the united States, or the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.
If you prefer the politics of church and state, you need to read the writings of one Thomas Jefferson on that very thought and how his thoughts have been totally guttted from his oringial meaning by the misleadings of payed lawyers. The phrase "seperation of church and state" is nowhere to be found in either the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. It is a concept of "the twiststation of words" by lawyers and money whose only one wish and desire is to see the new and experimental nation of the united States to fail. I try very hard to stay out of politics when I am on this forum but your post and the lacking of the history and knowledge of this country along with your opinions, rattled a door I really try to keep closed.
I'm not american but I have to agree with Firstborn. Christianity and the state is just another Babylon and when given political control, the church becomes a monster. Medieval catholicism is a huge proof of that and americans are blinding themselves if they think their christian country is better. In fact, christians politics in the States have created more hate against christians around the world than anything else.
:2c:
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 18, 2010, 06:03:48 PM
I'm not american but I have to agree with Firstborn. Christianity and the state is just another Babylon and when given political control, the church becomes a monster. Medieval catholicism is a huge proof of that and americans are blinding themselves if they think their christian country is better. In fact, christians politics in the States have created more hate against christians around the world than anything else.
:2c:
I would totally concur, christianity is Babylon and it is corrupting. My statement was about Kingdom of God, not christianity, I suggest there is a great difference.
Quote from: Quaesitor on October 18, 2010, 06:03:48 PM
I'm not american but I have to agree with Firstborn. Christianity and the state is just another Babylon and when given political control, the church becomes a monster. Medieval catholicism is a huge proof of that and americans are blinding themselves if they think their christian country is better. In fact, christians politics in the States have created more hate against christians around the world than anything else.
:2c:
Unfortunately, the american people keep trying to correct the problems and look what happens--they just get worse. That alone should tell you, we are being consistently lied to and manipulated. The same thing is happening in Canada, the UK, and the EU, at an even faster rate. Preaching from portions of the Bible is a hate crime in Canada, is it not? Haven't you put preachers in jail? This is a worldwide problem having to do with a challenge to the sovereignty of nations, and, in this country, of people. The only religion that is becoming outlawed is Christianity. You can still read Harry Potter in public school [witchcraft], celebrate earth day[paganism], and sing praises to the president [cult of personality], but you cannot sing Silent Night.
Don't kid your self that we have seperation of church and state, we are moving deeper and deeper into state approved religions only. And, they're not Christianity, at least not anything I would recognize as Christianity.
Blessed is the nation whose God is Yahweh.
How unfortunate that our god is Mammon, and behold, Mammon has abandoned us to recession, and unemployment. What a pitiful god is he.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 18, 2010, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
Thank you for your opinion.
"What ya'll are complaining about is that not everyone wears the label "Christian" and therefore the government can't endorse Christianity." I haven't seen anyone say that.
That's what it boils down to though. Atheists complained because a government institution (government schools) were endorsing a specific religious belief system. They were right and the correct changes were made. Yet many Christians disagree with the constitution and want a totalitarian Christian state. Want proof? Virtually none of those bemoaning the removal of Christian prayer from government schools are calling for instating Wiccan prayers or Hindu prayers in public schools.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
As far as the "us vs. them nonsense"? "...and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans; for not everyone belongs to the Faith!" 2 Thes. 3:2
Perfect example. You (apparently) want government schools to endorse Christian prayers and (apparently) label everyone else as abnormal and wicked. The facts of the matter is that many who pray Christian prayers are abnormal and wicked (do you follow current events?) and many who do not are not.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AMI personally don't disagree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone is talking about hating or abusing anyone, or endorsing "fundamentalist Christianity". Believing in a faith that disputes "anything goes"? Wishing for a culture that embraces Jesus Christ and His ways? You bet.
You are free to believe whatever you wish - and so is everyone else. That's the point. The founders fled Christian states fully understanding that state sponsored religion in any form is a recipe for oppression/disaster. That's why Jesus is never mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
And God will bring it about. I believe there's a purpose for the decline/falling away, as He works everything according to His will.
People are seeing through the facade of fundamentalist superstition and so naturally some sects of Christianity will see a decline.
Byron, I didn't say everyone who didn't pray Christian prayers were abnormal or wicked. I believe that's your assumption. I was addressing you saying "us vs. them nonsense". If you don't see there's a difference in believers and unbelievers, I probably can't fix that. It's all through the Book and IMO, God-revealed.
As far as further discussion on this matter, I believe I'll try to refrain. I really don't enjoy discussing when someone takes 1 +2 and adds it up to 4. You're mind's obviously already made up, and you also want to tell me what I think. If I can't just share my thoughts and them be taken as how I say and mean them, I really don't want to take the time and energy trying to keep correcting misapplied motives to what I'm saying.
It's fine, I still love you, I just don't want to engage in fruitless debates - especially when what I believe and say ends up being interpreted as something else. James.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 06:55:25 PM
I would totally concur, christianity is Babylon and it is corrupting. My statement was about Kingdom of God, not christianity, I suggest there is a great difference.
Right, amen. But if there already is a presumption of what "everyone" is saying, then they don't hear what your heart truly is. Maybe Q doesn't reallly know what specifici individuals in this topic really believe though, and IMO, that's a different matter than applying one's own motive to others thoughts and beliefs. :2c:
Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 07:35:25 PM
Blessed is the nation whose God is Yahweh.
How unfortunate that our god is Mammon, and behold, Mammon has abandoned us to recession, and unemployment. What a pitiful god is he.
Isa 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil,
I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
:cloud9: Amen Micah......generally speaking, Christianity and the Kingdom are not the same thing. Christianity displays bits and pieces of the Kingdom, here and there, just as we display bits and pieces of the Kingdom until He be all in all, fully manifested.
As for the separation of church and State, it was distorted to mean something the founding fathers never meant. They came here for freedom of religion from the RCC primarily, both Jews and Protestants, and they didn't want a State FORCED religion like the one they came out from under. They did not have to deal with Islam, Satanists, Humanist thinking, ect., so they did not anticipate their freedom would be used against them to further corrupt men away from God and His Word. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 18, 2010, 08:24:52 PM
:cloud9: Amen Micah......generally speaking, Christianity and the Kingdom are not the same thing. Christianity displays bits and pieces of the Kingdom, here and there, just as we display bits and pieces of the Kingdom until He be all in all, fully manifested.
As for the separation of church and State, it was distorted to mean something the founding fathers never meant. They came here for freedom of religion from the RCC primarily, both Jews and Protestants, and they didn't want a State FORCED religion like the one they came out from under. They did not have to deal with Islam, Satanists, Humanist thinking, ect., so they did not anticipate their freedom would be used against them to further corrupt men away from God and His Word. My :2c: Blessings....
Amen. As I said, I know of no one [here] that's talking about abuse, or even unkindness towards others. But going to extremes the other direction, IMO, isn't a good idea either. IMO, the falling away is pretty clear - and it will certainly take God to redeem and restore us.
Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 07:35:25 PM
Blessed is the nation whose God is Yahweh.
Amen! God reclaim and restore us.
If the salt has lost its savor it is no longer good for anything but to b cast out and trodden under foot by men.
No laws pro or con can make the difference an empowered kingdom of priests can. Or the difference a lamp set up on the lampstand can. Or the difference a city set on a hill can. Or the difference a body full of light can. Or the difference the intercessors who are crying out from under the altar can.
The eye is the light od the soul. If the eye is single then the whole body will be full of light. So let your light shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify God. No man sets a lamp under the bushel basket, but rather sets it on top of the bushel basket so it may shine light into all the house.
The bushel basket is the construction of man. It is not evil in itself, it is simply deficient until properly used.
If we walk in the light as He is in the light then we will have fellowship(koinonea-union, oneness) together and the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all sin.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 08:03:33 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 18, 2010, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
Thank you for your opinion.
"What ya'll are complaining about is that not everyone wears the label "Christian" and therefore the government can't endorse Christianity." I haven't seen anyone say that.
That's what it boils down to though. Atheists complained because a government institution (government schools) were endorsing a specific religious belief system. They were right and the correct changes were made. Yet many Christians disagree with the constitution and want a totalitarian Christian state. Want proof? Virtually none of those bemoaning the removal of Christian prayer from government schools are calling for instating Wiccan prayers or Hindu prayers in public schools.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
As far as the "us vs. them nonsense"? "...and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans; for not everyone belongs to the Faith!" 2 Thes. 3:2
Perfect example. You (apparently) want government schools to endorse Christian prayers and (apparently) label everyone else as abnormal and wicked. The facts of the matter is that many who pray Christian prayers are abnormal and wicked (do you follow current events?) and many who do not are not.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AMI personally don't disagree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone is talking about hating or abusing anyone, or endorsing "fundamentalist Christianity". Believing in a faith that disputes "anything goes"? Wishing for a culture that embraces Jesus Christ and His ways? You bet.
You are free to believe whatever you wish - and so is everyone else. That's the point. The founders fled Christian states fully understanding that state sponsored religion in any form is a recipe for oppression/disaster. That's why Jesus is never mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
And God will bring it about. I believe there's a purpose for the decline/falling away, as He works everything according to His will.
People are seeing through the facade of fundamentalist superstition and so naturally some sects of Christianity will see a decline.
Byron, I didn't say everyone who didn't pray Christian prayers were abnormal or wicked. I believe that's your assumption. I was addressing you saying "us vs. them nonsense". If you don't see there's a difference in believers and unbelievers, I probably can't fix that. It's all through the Book and IMO, God-revealed.
As far as further discussion on this matter, I believe I'll try to refrain. I really don't enjoy discussing when someone takes 1 +2 and adds it up to 4. You're mind's obviously already made up, and you also want to tell me what I think. If I can't just share my thoughts and them be taken as how I say and mean them, I really don't want to take the time and energy trying to keep correcting misapplied motives to what I'm saying.
It's fine, I still love you, I just don't want to engage in fruitless debates - especially when what I believe and say ends up being interpreted as something else. James.
You know I like to think big picture :dontknow:. When someone expresses ideas I try to see what the idea is like if followed through upon to it's implied goal. When we make statements bemoaning the absence of state sponsored prayer then I like to get to the heart of the matter - that's why I extend the ideas to their logical/illogical end. So I'm not really doing 1+2 = 4 but I'm filling in the unspoken gaps to fill out the equation.
Sorry for my generalizing and using your statements as a springboard to make my points. It's just how my mind works. :mblush:
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:04:00 PM
I too disagree with all you said.
You
too? Who else disagreed with all I said? [/quote]
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
I personally don't disagree with everything you've said.
I'm assuming you may have misread the above?
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:04:00 PM
If you take God out of the founding of this nation you would not have this nation or the Constitution of this nation.
This seems to be the general knee-jerk reaction to statements concerning the founders obvious concern with state sponsored religion.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:04:00 PM
I can tell by your writing that you have no understanding of either the Constitution of the united States, or the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.
Do you see any validity in the points I made?
Just a few general remarks.
People often don't see the flaws in themself.
Things are similar when looking at the country one lives in. Our the constitution.
I think it's good to define religion.
Personally I think religion at the time of the writing of the constitution in the US or many EU contries simply means forms of Christianity.
Freedom of religion simply meant: Catholics are not allowed to kill protestants. A protestant major won't close Catholic schools in his town.
I very much doubt wicca, satanism, tree worship, islam etc were considered religions.
So my guess is if the constitution says schools are allowed to teach all religions that originally excluded for example islam.
Even right now UR is called a sect (at best).
Do you think people that lived 200 years ago would consider satanism a religion?
People back then considered Satanism to be the complete opposite of Religion, at least as far as the general populace was concerned.
QuoteDo you think people that lived 200 years ago would consider satanism a religion?
Sure. Hence the burning of witches.
Even the Old Testament mentions witches, magic, soothsayers, and the like--these are those who consort with demons.
You are right that the Founders only had different flavors of Christianity in mind when they considered freedom of religion, though. If we are ever no longer a Christian country, the whole nature of our country and our Constitution will change--as we can see happening already today.
Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 11:58:18 PM
People back then considered Satanism to be the complete opposite of Religion, at least as far as the general populace was concerned.
Exactly.
So when you read the word religion in the constitution or documents of that time it simply meant Christianity.
And certainly not satanism, islam etc.
In other words the constitution grands zero rights to people of those religions.
The other religions would argue otherwise. :laughing7:
My only problem is the hypocrisy and reverse discrimination.
You can't have prayer in school because it offends the Atheists, yet the religion of Atheism is gladly taught, so much for separation of Church and State...The closest thing to a person without a religion is a True Agnostic, which quite frankly...doesn't exist. Our current system isn't Agnostic, clearly it isn't when you can't even pray, or discuss religion without an Atheist (a member of the religion that holds to the belief of the absence, and non-existence of God) getting in a hissy fit over it.
There are only three realms in the spectrum of ideology (I believe) when it comes to matters of Faith.
Knowing <-- Belief --> Ignorance
Knowing is absolutely knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt the conclusion of the evidence. In essence, you are One with what is True.
Belief is driven by faith and trust in your interpretation and choice based on the presented facts of evidence.
Ignorance is absolutely not knowing, which can only be achieved by a complete lack of evidence, or complete inability to perceive in any sense or form; said evidence. One would have to be completely psychotic (in the sense of being detached from reality) in order for this to be true for an individual.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 18, 2010, 10:48:41 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 08:03:33 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 18, 2010, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
Thank you for your opinion.
"What ya'll are complaining about is that not everyone wears the label "Christian" and therefore the government can't endorse Christianity." I haven't seen anyone say that.
That's what it boils down to though. Atheists complained because a government institution (government schools) were endorsing a specific religious belief system. They were right and the correct changes were made. Yet many Christians disagree with the constitution and want a totalitarian Christian state. Want proof? Virtually none of those bemoaning the removal of Christian prayer from government schools are calling for instating Wiccan prayers or Hindu prayers in public schools.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
As far as the "us vs. them nonsense"? "...and so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans; for not everyone belongs to the Faith!" 2 Thes. 3:2
Perfect example. You (apparently) want government schools to endorse Christian prayers and (apparently) label everyone else as abnormal and wicked. The facts of the matter is that many who pray Christian prayers are abnormal and wicked (do you follow current events?) and many who do not are not.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AMI personally don't disagree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone is talking about hating or abusing anyone, or endorsing "fundamentalist Christianity". Believing in a faith that disputes "anything goes"? Wishing for a culture that embraces Jesus Christ and His ways? You bet.
You are free to believe whatever you wish - and so is everyone else. That's the point. The founders fled Christian states fully understanding that state sponsored religion in any form is a recipe for oppression/disaster. That's why Jesus is never mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.
Quote from: jabcat on October 18, 2010, 09:18:29 AM
And God will bring it about. I believe there's a purpose for the decline/falling away, as He works everything according to His will.
People are seeing through the facade of fundamentalist superstition and so naturally some sects of Christianity will see a decline.
Byron, I didn't say everyone who didn't pray Christian prayers were abnormal or wicked. I believe that's your assumption. I was addressing you saying "us vs. them nonsense". If you don't see there's a difference in believers and unbelievers, I probably can't fix that. It's all through the Book and IMO, God-revealed.
As far as further discussion on this matter, I believe I'll try to refrain. I really don't enjoy discussing when someone takes 1 +2 and adds it up to 4. You're mind's obviously already made up, and you also want to tell me what I think. If I can't just share my thoughts and them be taken as how I say and mean them, I really don't want to take the time and energy trying to keep correcting misapplied motives to what I'm saying.
It's fine, I still love you, I just don't want to engage in fruitless debates - especially when what I believe and say ends up being interpreted as something else. James.
You know I like to think big picture :dontknow:. When someone expresses ideas I try to see what the idea is like if followed through upon to it's implied goal. When we make statements bemoaning the absence of state sponsored prayer then I like to get to the heart of the matter - that's why I extend the ideas to their logical/illogical end. So I'm not really doing 1+2 = 4 but I'm filling in the unspoken gaps to fill out the equation.
Sorry for my generalizing and using your statements as a springboard to make my points. It's just how my mind works. :mblush:
:bigGrin: And my OCD mind works down to every jot and every tittle LOL - and if I feel I have to keep going back, clarifying, and re-laying the groundwork of what I was attempting to say, then I'll often opt out. When someone addresses me directly, I take it as directed at me. LOL. Forgive me as well.
I had written up some thoughts for clarification, because I do like to be clear (and taken on point, as well). I'll post this, as I believe it's a good summary for what I'd like to say, and hopefully any further wrangling on my part won't be necessary. Everyone has an understanding, a point of view.
It would be great to have one nation, under God. A nation and a people who's God is YHWH, Father of His son, Yesu.
Not where open worship is legally mandated,
nor where it is condemned and outlawed; where it
is encouraged, embraced, and permeates the culture and society. Laws can't ensure the latter, "the ideal". However,
negative laws can discourage it and ban it, when those laws are allowed to exist and be enforced; when the hearts and minds of the people have grown cold and far from God.
It must come from the heart, and come from God moving amongst His people; intervening, and setting straight the crooked paths.
A good prayer and a contrite heart may be, that each of us would be a help and not a hindrance.
Noach webster dictionary 1852
Religion is following God(s commandments) (http://books.google.nl/books?id=UnoCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=webster+dictionary&hl=nl&ei=abu8TPjkGo7oOezHldIM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=religion&f=false)
God=jehovha (http://books.google.nl/books?id=UnoCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=webster+dictionary&hl=nl&ei=abu8TPjkGo7oOezHldIM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=god&f=false)
1799
Religion is following our Creator (http://books.google.nl/books?id=a6MRAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=dictionary&hl=nl&ei=57-8TLSJIcacOq2Z_fsI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=religion&f=false)
http://books.google.nl/books?id=a6MRAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=dictionary&hl=nl&ei=57-8TLSJIcacOq2Z_fsI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=god&f=false (http://books.google.nl/books?id=a6MRAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=dictionary&hl=nl&ei=57-8TLSJIcacOq2Z_fsI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=god&f=false)
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2010, 12:14:37 AM
Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 11:58:18 PM
People back then considered Satanism to be the complete opposite of Religion, at least as far as the general populace was concerned.
Exactly.
So when you read the word religion in the constitution or documents of that time it simply meant Christianity.
And certainly not satanism, islam etc.
In other words the constitution grands zero rights to people of those religions.
Ok, I see what you're saying. Too bad they didn't spell it out as freedom of Christianity, though. lol
Their biggest fear [at least of people like John Adams]--seems to be a total lack of Christianity.
:2c:
Their were a number of religions represented among the writers and signers of the Constitution. They were not all Christian. They did not all agree upon what Christianity is. They, therefore wanted to avoid the imposition of any particular 'brand' of religion upon the people- recognizing that many evils are done in the name of good. I've read Jefferson, most people would not define him as a Christian, he had some real problems with atonement-did not see the blood of Jesus as a propitiation for sin.The Pilgrims did not leave England to escape Catholicism, they were running from King Henry's oppressive and dogmatic Protestantism of the church of England.
I think the reason Islam is such a problem is that it seeks to establish an earthly kingdom by the power of man. If we do the same, we are resisting the Kingdom of God in the name of good, which we do in the impotence of reason and logic and morality - having a form of godliness and denying the power of it. Only the Spirit can save our nation, by the prayer and repentance of the intercessors, in the power of God by the manifestation of the truth. Salty salt is our only hope :o).
"So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary. "O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion. "O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name."
(Dan 9:13-19)
Really the whole problem is that we are ignoring the fundamentals of genuine truth to begin with.
We are trying to institute laws to ensure freedom, when freedom is the very lack of laws to begin with. Replacing laws (outward pressure) with love (inward pressure) to do good, and be good. That is why the Mosaic law could not save, because it was a set of laws, not a change of heart, which no form of law can do.
You can only perform under the institution of law, you cannot be. This includes our democratic institutions of law.
I trully believe the "problem" if there is a problem would become more solved in those who have Christ in them the hope of glory, to stop..and in the midst of all the politics and no prayer in school, all the earthy stuff and remember and know....
Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await--the Lord Jesus Christ--
this knowledge will sweep us past all the obstacles it would "seem" we have here in this house of clay in waiting for the twinkling of an eye.
My :2c:
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 02:56:03 AM
I trully believe the "problem" if there is a problem would become more solved in those who have Christ in them the hope of glory, to stop..and in the midst of all the politics and no prayer in school, all the earthy stuff and remember and know....
Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await--the Lord Jesus Christ--
this knowledge will sweep us past all the obstacles it would "seem" we have here in this house of clay in waiting for the twinkling of an eye.
My :2c:
Peace and Love Through Jesus
:2thumbs: :happy3:
what are you guys thoughts on creating a christian states in the US. This way the non christian whoever they may be can live over at x point and the christians can live at x point on the USA map.
The christians states would be founded on the constitution, since its tried and tested.
So a bit like how Judah split from Israel.
I mean how long can Christains live side by side with non christians?
Shouldn't God lead his people into their own land if things get out of hand?
Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 03:48:47 AM
what are you guys thoughts on creating a christian states in the US. This way the non christian whoever they may be can live over at x point and the christians can live at x point on the USA map.
The christians states would be founded on the constitution, since its tried and tested.
So a bit like how Judah split from Israel.
I mean how long can Christains live side by side with non christians?
Shouldn't God lead his people into their own land if things get out of hand?
I think it could be done, if you don't take federal assistance for public schools, for instance. Could you outlaw abortion in your state? I'm not sure about that. I doubt it, given the federal law. But, you could maybe refuse to fund it. It's an interesting thought--as people think more and more about states' rights.
We are to be salt in the Earth. God would merely spread us apart again even at our very attempt to build our Babel.
Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 04:14:01 AM
We are to be salt in the Earth. God would merely spread us apart again even at our very attempt to build our Babel.
Maybe not, he commanded Israel to build Israel
Thats a country with Gods covenant.
Some states have a high amount of christian percentage, if it be Gods will and in his timing they could have their own state laws.
The drug dealers are already doing this, they own many neighbourhoods, but they do it for evil purposes.
:2c:
Joh 17:15 I do not ask that Thou mayest take them out of the world, but that Thou mayest keep them out of the evil.
Joh 17:16 `Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not;
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 05:03:42 AM
Joh 17:15 I do not ask that Thou mayest take them out of the world, but that Thou mayest keep them out of the evil.
Joh 17:16 `Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not;
You probably find it to early yet to pack and leave, perhaps you would if conditions got out of hand, but I know many christians who are brave enough would stay to minister to others, such as those that right now are ministering to rough neighbourhoods full of gangsters and criminals.
There are a few christians who are already setting up communities in parts of the states. I sometimes think of doing the same to live as moses in the wilderness, ok maybe not as moses, but to be in a loving community where we grown our own crops etc, sounds good, but I would miss many things though about the modern world.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 05:26:09 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 05:03:42 AM
Joh 17:15 I do not ask that Thou mayest take them out of the world, but that Thou mayest keep them out of the evil.
Joh 17:16 `Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not;
You probably find it to early yet to pack and leave, perhaps you would if conditions got out of hand, but I know many christians who are brave enough would stay to minister to others, such as those that right now are ministering to rough neighbourhoods full of gangsters and criminals.
There are a few christians who are already setting up communities in parts of the states. I sometimes think of doing the same to live as moses in the wilderness, ok maybe not as moses, but to be in a loving community where we grown our own crops etc, sounds good, but I would miss many things though about the modern world.
:2c:
I have no expectations of going anywhere, nor do I have asperations of setrting up a commune of some kind. My pattern is the Son and I will stop with this:
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;
Rom 8:19 for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
The Federalist Papers give the mind set of the framers of the U. S. Constitution, what they intended in it.
________________________________________
God showed me those who seem at the moment about to prevail in establishing anti-christ and anti-biblical positions in our government as a basis for persecuting Christians are like autumn leaves that can be blown away by the breezes...
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14; AV)
I don't see evidence, however, that these threats are being taken seriously by the people I talk to or their leaders in the so-called Christian media.
Interesting, how we've come into an era of "rock star" authority for most of those who say they're believers. Their faith is shaped and their Bible exegesis is done by rock star like figures in the media. These must appeal to the largest doner base to be able to afford their air time. At their best they keep you in the shallow end of the pool. Deep things are controversial; so, don't expect it from them. Besides, those who have even broached certain topics are swiftly and summarially removed. God can, however, raise up other "feeds" into the sucklings.
The reason the Church has so little effect on society is because the Church has no effect on the church. We have paid professionals for that. Possibly this explains something I've wondered about for a while: where are the Christian kids in the public schools? If they understood who they are and what they have, the education system would have to change to accomadate them. The school grounds are still in the USA where freedom of speech, including religious speech is protected.
This may seem a bit odd, but alot of what you just stated Reformer, is why I don't believe "The end is near" like alot of other Christians say after every hurricane or earthquake. The end is coming, and my watch is not empty, but I feel like we're still in the Christian era equivalent of the book of Judges, if that makes any sort of sense. There isn't yet a king, and everyone does as they please.
Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
But a king is coming...Saul first perhaps, but then shall reign The Son of David!
Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2010, 12:40:08 AM
It would be great to have one nation, under God. A nation and a people who's God is YHWH, Father of His son, Yesu.
All nations are "under" God: "The earth is the LORD's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein"
And yet - I understand exactly what you are saying, yet a nation cannot be Christian as a nation is not a person and cannot be reborn, Spirit filled etc.
What I see happening is a right wing fundie movement which wants a "Christian state" which is an oxymoron, a misnomer and an impossibility. It's the same mistake which wrought havoc in centuries past.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2010, 12:14:37 AM
In other words the constitution grands zero rights to people of those religions.
:sigh: Really? People of non-Christian religions have zero rights under the constitution? :mshock: It's no wonder minority religions and atheists are terrified of the religious right with sentiments like that floating around. Here's some info:
Madison's original proposal for a bill of rights provision concerning religion read: ''The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' The language was altered in the House to read: ''Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or to prevent the free exercise thereof, or to infringe the rights of conscience.'' In the Senate, the section adopted read: ''Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith, or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion, . . .'' It was in the conference committee of the two bodies, chaired by Madison, that the present language was written with its some what more indefinite ''respecting'' phraseology.
These men were not stupid and knew exactly what was being stated.
Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 12:00:07 AM
You are right that the Founders only had different flavors of Christianity in mind when they considered freedom of religion, though.
They made absolutely NO distinction whatsoever. Again - these men were not ignorant of what they were doing.
Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 01:01:37 AM
Too bad they didn't spell it out as freedom of Christianity, though. lol
Not only did they not spell it out they made the intent crystal clear by not mentioning Jesus at all. These were people who were sick sick SICK of oppression. Virtually every religious state in the history of mankind has a very bad human rights track record (ie: they were oppressive).
The worst day for Christianity is when it became the official Roman state religion.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 02:56:03 AM
I trully believe the "problem" if there is a problem would become more solved in those who have Christ in them the hope of glory, to stop..and in the midst of all the politics and no prayer in school, all the earthy stuff and remember and know....
Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await--the Lord Jesus Christ--
this knowledge will sweep us past all the obstacles it would "seem" we have here in this house of clay in waiting for the twinkling of an eye.
My :2c:
Peace and Love Through Jesus
After reading the above I cannot possibly understand why you would be in disagreement with everything I said earlier.
Quote from: reFORMer on October 19, 2010, 07:07:23 AM
The Federalist Papers give the mind set of the framers of the U. S. Constitution, what they intended in it.
________________________________________
God showed me those who seem at the moment about to prevail in establishing anti-christ and anti-biblical positions in our government as a basis for persecuting Christians are like autumn leaves that can be blown away by the breezes...
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14; AV)
I don't see evidence, however, that these threats are being taken seriously by the people I talk to or their leaders in the so-called Christian media.
Interesting, how we've come into an era of "rock star" authority for most of those who say they're believers. Their faith is shaped and their Bible exegesis is doner by figures like rock stars in the media.
This is called "Christian persecution complex". Here's an interesting article on the phenomenon:
http://politicalcartel.org/2010/03/05/christian-persecution-complex/
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 19, 2010, 07:21:34 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on October 19, 2010, 07:07:23 AM
The Federalist Papers give the mind set of the framers of the U. S. Constitution, what they intended in it.
________________________________________
God showed me those who seem at the moment about to prevail in establishing anti-christ and anti-biblical positions in our government as a basis for persecuting Christians are like autumn leaves that can be blown away by the breezes...
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14; AV)
I don't see evidence, however, that these threats are being taken seriously by the people I talk to or their leaders in the so-called Christian media.
Interesting, how we've come into an era of "rock star" authority for most of those who say they're believers. Their faith is shaped and their Bible exegesis is doner by figures like rock stars in the media.
This is called "Christian persecution complex". Here's an interesting article on the phenomenon:
http://politicalcartel.org/2010/03/05/christian-persecution-complex/
And we're supposed to believe this source over a Spirit-filled believer, a Berean searching the scriptures daily to see if these things are true - and the scriptures themselves? I see quite an atheistic (satanic) influence on the site. I AM NOT saying nothing they have to say is valid. I just wouldn't swallow it all hook, line, and sinker, personally. That's my POV.
Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 03:48:47 AM
what are you guys thoughts on creating a christian states in the US. This way the non christian whoever they may be can live over at x point and the christians can live at x point on the USA map.
The christians states would be founded on the constitution, since its tried and tested.
So a bit like how Judah split from Israel.
I mean how long can Christains live side by side with non christians?
Shouldn't God lead his people into their own land if things get out of hand?
I would suggest this article http://politicalcartel.org/2010/03/05/christian-persecution-complex/ for more info about the Christian persecution complex in the U.S.
Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2010, 07:32:50 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 19, 2010, 07:21:34 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on October 19, 2010, 07:07:23 AM
The Federalist Papers give the mind set of the framers of the U. S. Constitution, what they intended in it.
________________________________________
God showed me those who seem at the moment about to prevail in establishing anti-christ and anti-biblical positions in our government as a basis for persecuting Christians are like autumn leaves that can be blown away by the breezes...
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14; AV)
I don't see evidence, however, that these threats are being taken seriously by the people I talk to or their leaders in the so-called Christian media.
Interesting, how we've come into an era of "rock star" authority for most of those who say they're believers. Their faith is shaped and their Bible exegesis is doner by figures like rock stars in the media.
This is called "Christian persecution complex". Here's an interesting article on the phenomenon:
http://politicalcartel.org/2010/03/05/christian-persecution-complex/
And we're supposed to believe this source over a Spirit-filled believer, a Berean searching the scriptures daily to see if these things are true? I'll pass.
It just explains some of the ends and outs of the tribal "us verses them" mentality of fundamentalism. There is a specific psychology attached to it and none of us are immune.
Oh I agree we can learn from many sources. I just know things can be biased - sometimes EXTREMELY so, on either side of the equation. I'm careful, and I personally lean to prefering what I'd term as a Christ-centered, scriptural approach. Again though, I'm not saying nothing they say there is true, I'm sure much of it is. It just appears much discernment and spiritual "in-tuneness" :laughing7: (made that up) would likely be in order. Do you think so?
Also, plz keep in mind my education and field in which I work is probably one of the most liberal, humanistic, God-ignoring fields there is (you mentioned "psychology" - yep, that's the field I'm talking about :mblush:). So I'm not a total rube or snob to "outside" information - (I've read stuff purporting to be the truth, a legitimate, pure thing, that would make your head spin/your spirit ache) - I just think some things are unecessarily and dangerously biased. (And I agree, we can all be affected by many things.)
But when I see "deconversion", "I'm now an atheist and better off than when I was a Christian", etc. flashing at me, I take notice. :icon_rr:
Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2010, 07:40:36 AM
Oh I agree we can learn from many sources. I just know things can be biased - sometimes EXTREMELY so, on either side of the equation.
I think the article is well rounded. It is even clear that an aggressive atheist agenda (the atheist fringe) in responsible for some of the paranoia.
Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2010, 07:42:55 AM
(you mentioned "psychology" - yep, that's the field I'm talking about :mblush:). So I'm not a total rube or snob to "outside" information - (I've read stuff purporting to be the truth, a legitimate, pure thing, that would make your head spin/your spirit ache) -
I use the term to describe the mental processes. And, of course, I've read
some Christian scholarship purporting to be the truth, a legitimate, pure thing with a similar result as you describe. More than an ache though - more of an intense anguish.
Quote from: jabcat on October 19, 2010, 07:42:55 AMBut when I see "deconversion", "I'm now an atheist and better off than when I was a Christian", etc. flashing at me, I take notice. :icon_rr:
The vast majority of deconversions I know about come about from someone never having a heart experience with God (raised a Catholic, raised a Baptist - whatever). It actually can be a step forward for someone to recognize they have lived a lie. I (for example) completely abandoned my Christian upbringing and became an atheist before my conversion.
:bigGrin:
:cloud9: Who was it that said, "There are no athiests in foxholes." :dontknow: All they do is dig themselves a deeper pit from which to cry out to the living God from. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: reFORMer on October 19, 2010, 07:07:23 AM
The Federalist Papers give the mind set of the framers of the U. S. Constitution, what they intended in it.
________________________________________
God showed me those who seem at the moment about to prevail in establishing anti-christ and anti-biblical positions in our government as a basis for persecuting Christians are like autumn leaves that can be blown away by the breezes...
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14; AV)
I don't see evidence, however, that these threats are being taken seriously by the people I talk to or their leaders in the so-called Christian media.
Interesting, how we've come into an era of "rock star" authority for most of those who say they're believers. Their faith is shaped and their Bible exegesis is done by rock star like figures in the media. These must appeal to the largest doner base to be able to afford their air time. At their best they keep you in the shallow end of the pool. Deep things are controversial; so, don't expect it from them. Besides, those who have even broached certain topics are swiftly and summarially removed. God can, however, raise up other "feeds" into the sucklings.
The reason the Church has so little effect on society is because the Church has no effect on the church. We have paid professionals for that. Possibly this explains something I've wondered about for a while: where are the Christian kids in the public schools? If they understood who they are and what they have, the education system would have to change to accomadate them. The school grounds are still in the USA where freedom of speech, including religious speech is protected.
Good post, very true. You know when people think of Nazi Germany they think 'oh hitler and his government were so evil' but they forget that the people of Germany, Japan and Italy were active particpants of this evil, they cheered them on, fought for them, voted for them, worked for them etc. So in essence governments are often a reflection of the peoples heart.
In king Davids day the people of Israel were behaving well, into the time of solomon, when Israel entered her most wonderfull time of peace and prosperity, but afterward they tunred away from the lord and the kingdom fell.
So it is true that if the people turn away from their sins and turn to God, God will heal the land and take care of politics. USa is still a free country and it is not to difficult to swing back into the right direction, but if it swings to much into the side of evil, it might be hard to recover.
:2c:
Quote from: firstbornNot only did they not spell it out they made the intent crystal clear by not mentioning Jesus at all. These were people who were sick sick SICK of oppression. Virtually every religious state in the history of mankind has a very bad human rights track record (ie: they were oppressive).
The worst day for Christianity is when it became the official Roman state religion.
They mentioned Jesus constantly in their private writings, but the oppression they were experiencing in the countries they were fleeing was at the hands of state imposed flavor of Christianity--whether it be episcople or catholic. Let's be very clear about this--they wanted to worship God according to their own Christian beliefs which were at that time Protestant. This country was a church relocation project for Protestants.
People like to point to Jefferson as some type of example of someone who wasn't a Christian, yet completely ignore that he put together his own Bible as a statement of his beliefs. It is clear that he loved Jesus and he ended his life as a born again Christian.
More than anything else, these Founders were illustrating that our relationshipwith the Christian God was profoundly personal ,and all of New England was founded by one Protestant church group splitting off from another and moving to a different location. Because as you know, Protestants read the Bible--and the Bible is a spiritual journey that keeps us moving alongside the living God.
As far as Constantine is concerned, his conversion is nothing short of a miracle, since at the time Christians were being wiped off the face of the earth, and most likely, wouldn't have made it into the next century wihout him.
The problem with a christian country or rather christian government is that it would not take long for the wolves to come in and spoil the fun. Making various biblical truths as law and thus causing division, this is what happened in the past.
Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 08:29:48 PM
The problem with a christian country or rather christian government is that it would not take long for the wolves to come in and spoil the fun. Making various biblical truths as law and thus causing division, this is what happened in the past.
But, what I'm trying to say is that this started as a Christian government and has always been one to the extent that we have been able to preserve it even despite the assault of the recent decades. We already have a Christian Constitution, based on the Bible, based on the freedom that we have in Christ, with its three branches of government and Bill of Rights.
This, we the people, as it was envisioned by our Founders, is what a Christian country looks like. And, they started their congressional sessions with prayer and put quotations from the Bible all over their public buildings, which is the bane of atheists to this very day. Our Founders did that. Why have people forgotten this? How brainwashed is everyone?
Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 08:16:58 PM
Quote from: firstbornNot only did they not spell it out they made the intent crystal clear by not mentioning Jesus at all. These were people who were sick sick SICK of oppression. Virtually every religious state in the history of mankind has a very bad human rights track record (ie: they were oppressive).
The worst day for Christianity is when it became the official Roman state religion.
They mentioned Jesus constantly in their private writings, but the oppression they were experiencing in the countries they were fleeing was at the hands of state imposed flavor of Christianity--whether it be episcople or catholic. Let's be very clear about this--they wanted to worship God according to their own Christian beliefs which were at that time Protestant. This country was a church relocation project for Protestants.
People like to point to Jefferson as some type of example of someone who wasn't a Christian, yet completely ignore that he put together his own Bible as a statement of his beliefs. It is clear that he loved Jesus and he ended his life as a born again Christian.
More than anything else, these Founders were illustrating that our relationshipwith the Christian God was profoundly personal ,and all of New England was founded by one Protestant church group splitting off from another and moving to a different location. Because as you know, Protestants read the Bible--and the Bible is a spiritual journey that keeps us moving alongside the living God.
As far as Constantine is concerned, his conversion is nothing short of a miracle, since at the time Christians were being wiped off the face of the earth, and most likely, wouldn't have made it into the next century wihout him.
Agreed on most of this and it remains clear to me that they knew exactly what was being set up (liberty to hold any belief or no belief without being persecuted for it).
As far as Constantine, it is good to have friends in high places but this politicizing of Christianity became a huge problem, did it not?
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 19, 2010, 08:55:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 08:16:58 PM
Quote from: firstbornNot only did they not spell it out they made the intent crystal clear by not mentioning Jesus at all. These were people who were sick sick SICK of oppression. Virtually every religious state in the history of mankind has a very bad human rights track record (ie: they were oppressive).
The worst day for Christianity is when it became the official Roman state religion.
They mentioned Jesus constantly in their private writings, but the oppression they were experiencing in the countries they were fleeing was at the hands of state imposed flavor of Christianity--whether it be episcople or catholic. Let's be very clear about this--they wanted to worship God according to their own Christian beliefs which were at that time Protestant. This country was a church relocation project for Protestants.
People like to point to Jefferson as some type of example of someone who wasn't a Christian, yet completely ignore that he put together his own Bible as a statement of his beliefs. It is clear that he loved Jesus and he ended his life as a born again Christian.
More than anything else, these Founders were illustrating that our relationshipwith the Christian God was profoundly personal ,and all of New England was founded by one Protestant church group splitting off from another and moving to a different location. Because as you know, Protestants read the Bible--and the Bible is a spiritual journey that keeps us moving alongside the living God.
As far as Constantine is concerned, his conversion is nothing short of a miracle, since at the time Christians were being wiped off the face of the earth, and most likely, wouldn't have made it into the next century wihout him.
Agreed on most of this and it remains clear to me that they knew exactly what was being set up (liberty to hold any belief or no belief without being persecuted for it).
As far as Constantine, it is good to have friends in high places but this politicizing of Christianity became a huge problem, did it not?
In a sense it did to the extent it was used as tyranny by political figures using religion to perpetrate their own power. But, our Founders did their best to protect us from tyranny--not from the Christian religion, but from tyranny. The Bible itself is not inherently political with the exception of its emphasis on Liberty through Christ, if you want to call that political. But, they themselves admitted that what they set up would only work for a moral people of God--all the more reason for us to insist that our Christian principles be passed on to the next generation in our public schools. There is no good to be served by moving backwards from the Founders position--and to the extent that we have, we have always regretted it.
What you may be forgetting is the Founders left it up to the States and the people--the tenth amendment.
From many of the writings of Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin that I have read, I found that christianity is mentioned very little, or Jesus even mentioned.
In fact Jefferson translated the NT and he denys even the virgin birth. I believe you can get his translation on line.
The founders were anti religion for control, but very much believers in Divine Providence, God, The Creator they believed in a Higher Power and Intelligence. They did found this nation on A Creator, higher than mankind. The OT certainly can be seen in much of our early history, especially with words etched in the stone of our Washington builders. And certainly opening sessions of government with prayer. But christianity, they did not want to identify with a named religion, they had left that across the water. I believe christianity with all its myths, and fables is much of our problem today, christianity, most of the stories of christianity are found in much earlier religions and their writings.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 19, 2010, 08:55:45 PMAs far as Constantine, it is good to have friends in high places but this politicizing of Christianity became a huge problem, did it not?
It changed changed a small Christian community into a large paganized Christian community.
What's best? A little community with full truth or a large community with paganized truth?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2010, 09:37:44 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 19, 2010, 08:55:45 PMAs far as Constantine, it is good to have friends in high places but this politicizing of Christianity became a huge problem, did it not?
It changed changed a small Christian community into a large paganized Christian community.
What's best? A little full truth or a lot half truth?
Can we add only the Truth?
Micah, I don't understand your answer/question. I editted my message.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2010, 10:06:02 PM
Micah, I don't understand your answer/question. I editted my message.
I thought this was you
"It changed changed a small Christian community into a large paganized Christian community.
What's best?
A little full truth or a lot half truth?"And my answer was can we not have
the whole truth?
Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 08:38:10 PM
Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 08:29:48 PM
The problem with a christian country or rather christian government is that it would not take long for the wolves to come in and spoil the fun. Making various biblical truths as law and thus causing division, this is what happened in the past.
But, what I'm trying to say is that this started as a Christian government and has always been one to the extent that we have been able to preserve it even despite the assault of the recent decades. We already have a Christian Constitution, based on the Bible, based on the freedom that we have in Christ, with its three branches of government and Bill of Rights. This, we the people, as it was envisioned by our Founders, is what a Christian country looks like. And, they started their congressional sessions with prayer and put quotations from the Bible all over their public buildings, which is the bane of atheists to this very day. Our Founders did that. Why have people forgotten this? How brainwashed is everyone?
By Faith, Abraham believed God, by faith Moses opened the read sea, .....
By faith the us constitution was devised, that is the source of its power. However, there is not much power when it is law, to become a Christian or how to worship. For without faith it is impossible to please him, and the problem with a church controlled government is that the laws of the church can be passed onto the country, such as wrong doctrine, and if one does not abide to these commonly held doctrines then they will be punished. Not all have faith....but most people want to live in a free society, where there is freedom of speech, private property, a fair society, no murder, no thieving etc and this is what the constitution is about, the source of its power being faith in a loving, just and wise God, who just happens to be Jesus. I think an aethist would have no problem with the constitution, unless they hate the freedom of hearing people sing hymns all the time.
What I see is people who no longer care for liberty. Under the double-speak word "tolerance" we are being brain washed to not express any thought that offends somebody else. It's only a matter of time until this becomes institutionalized in the bureauchracy to the the extent outspoken critics of deviant sexual behavior or other government policies, like war efforts are persecuted (doesn't anyone remember the '60's?) The concern of radical gay organizations for years has unabashedly been to silence the Church. While I regard their idea of "the Church" to refer to Institutional Christianity, those not aligned with any intstitution will yet bear persecution for openly influencing what the politicos increasingly regard as their country. With so many millions across the face of the earth being persecuted now and in the last century for bearing the name of Jesus I can't agree it is just a personality peculiarity afflicting a subset of Christian believers contrary to the facts.
A vast many Christians are killed every day in Africa, the Asian Isles, North Korea, persecuted in Asia mostly, just a few years ago (about 50) Soviet Russia, Cambodia, Laos, the whole communist block martyred Christians as being against the state...The church in China is underground - you can't take Bibles into the country, it is illegal to do so.
The list goes on...There is more to the world than our little extension of Rome (Europe, America, Canada; The Western powers)
Quote from: Lefein on October 20, 2010, 03:00:14 AM
A vast many Christians are killed every day in Africa, the Asian Isles, North Korea, persecuted in Asia mostly, just a few years ago (about 50) Soviet Russia, Cambodia, Laos, the whole communist block martyred Christians as being against the state...The church in China is underground - you can't take Bibles into the country, it is illegal to do so.
The list goes on...There is more to the world than our little extension of Rome (Europe, America, Canada; The Western powers)
I was specifically referring to the U.S. Christian persecution complex phenomenon. That is - the imaginary persecution which Christians believe they suffer here in the U.S. where I live.
Persecution in the US is existent, but on a sneakier sort of scale.
The problem is that it is a different sort of persecutive behaviour than is expected; we aren't being burnt at stakes. But a good deal of the large-scale battles and food fights between Christian groups, and other groups...is mostly self-inflicted.
Homosexuals blame Christians for persecuting them - Stop running around in leather cod pieces, and trying to press homosexual material into the hands of kindergarden children and their parents won't try and shut you up.
Christians blame Atheists for persecuting them by removing prayer and icons from public view - It'd help if you didn't constantly tell them that they are godless immoral people, who are damned to Eternal Hell where their father the devil is going to poke them with a large, angry stick...
But then you have legitimate cases, like getting fired for having an ictus fish on your desk at work.
Quote from: reFORMer on October 20, 2010, 02:50:29 AM
What I see is people who no longer care for liberty. Under the double-speak word "tolerance" we are being brain washed to not express any thought that offends somebody else. It's only a matter of time until this becomes institutionalized in the bureauchracy to the the extent outspoken critics of deviant sexual behavior or other government policies, like war efforts are persecuted (soesn't anyone remember the '60's?) The concern of radical gay organizations for years has unabashedly been to silence the Church. While I regard their idea of "the Church" to refer to Institutional Christianity, those not aligned with any intstitution will yet bear persecution for openly influencing what the politicos increasingly regard as their country. With so many millions across the face of the earth being persecuted now and in the last century for bearing the name of Jesus I can't agree it is just a personality peculiarity afflicting a subset of Christian believers contrary to the facts.
It's not about Christianity though - it's about free speech. I absolutely agree that the 1st amendment MUST vigorously be protected. So far with both Fred Phelps and gay marches being protected we seem to be okay at both ends of the spectrum but MUST be always vigilant.
What bugs me is when Christians think they are being attacked by the devil at every turn and claim the government is going to padlock all the churches etc. Utter nonsense. They've been spreading those rumors since the 60's.
Quote from: Lefein on October 20, 2010, 03:42:08 AM
Persecution in the US is existent, but on a sneakier sort of scale.
The problem is that it is a different sort of persecutive behaviour than is expected; we aren't being burnt at stakes. But a good deal of the large-scale battles and food fights between Christian groups, and other groups...is mostly self-inflicted.
Homosexuals blame Christians for persecuting them - Stop running around in leather cod pieces, and trying to press homosexual material into the hands of kindergarden children and their parents won't try and shut you up.
Christians blame Atheists for persecuting them by removing prayer and icons from public view - It'd help if you didn't constantly tell them that they are godless immoral people, who are damned to Eternal Hell where their father the devil is going to poke them with a large, angry stick...
But then you have legitimate cases, like getting fired for having an ictus fish on your desk at work.
If Christians would fight against the persecution of Muslims or gays then that would be Christlike behavior. As it is - they (mainly) look out for their own rights and interests just like every other people group.
It is because we (Christians in general in the US, most of which are nominal to not thoroughly serious in the Faith) are working under a false premise.
"If you aren't for us, you're against us"
Of course, most Christians aren't Universal Reconciliationists either. Once that becomes the accepted doctrine of Salvation, the persecutions will be met with a very, very different (and inevitably much more positive) response.
Christian being "attacked" by an unbeliever in the present situtation:
"I'll see you in Hell! You godless sinner! (after getting a wrong order at starbucks)"
Christian being attacked by an unbeliever in the future situtation:
"I'll see you in Heaven eventually, see ya! *gets burnt at the stake*"
As I see it, persecution in the West has been as frequently by "Christians" against "Christians". The history of Europe is full of wars of religion conducted by "Christians" against other "Christians". The larger groups of "Christians" in this country will persecute any voices that rise up out of the midst to declare the counsels of the Lord. When Peter says it is time for judgment (separation/exposure/clarification/correction) to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem- we quail and rail.... "That's not us!" We're so sure of ourselves here in Laodicea. But the real church is often hidden inPhiladelphia , suffering with Him outside the camp. "You will be persecuted by all nations for my namesake".
I think we are so afraid of being rejected, we have forgotten how to be salt and light. IMO the moral majority is only moral until you ask them to redress the inequities in our society.... then they say "God helps those who help themselves".
When Jesus says not one stone will be left standing upon another, we say, "That's not us, we are living stones!" Living stones are the tabernacle of the Spirit. The proof is in the pudding. Where there is life, there God is dwelling in the midst. Where God is dwelling there is a lamp shining light into all the house, exposing all that is hidden in darkness. How many Christians have been burned at the stake of the orthodox opinion? "If the light that is in you is darkness how great is that darkness?"
I think Christians do what Jesus did. He spoke up. He got killed for it. He didnt spend all His time arguing out theological questions,or political ones- He went to the heart of the issue- the issues of the heart. He said, "Many will say unto me on that day, "Lord, Lord"........ They will all tell about how they were good Christians. He will tell them how they missed the point. "Love your enemies, do good to them that curse you and spitefully use you. Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing."
We are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, and so shine like lights in the midst of a wicked and perverse generation. The only nation doing that is the holy nation- that peculiar people. They kno that the Father who sees in secret will reward them openly- they give without letting one hand speak to the other. They give freely expecting no return.
Perhaps we need this darkness to increase so that we will be driven to an overcoming faith.
:cloud9: Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: FurstbornIt's not about Christianity though - it's about free speech.
Really.
Name the Muslim or Atheist [Communist], Hindu or Buddhist country that has free speech guaranteed by its Constitution and upheld in the courts...
I suppose you think we can decouple our Constitution from its roots? Good luck with that. History says you are wrong.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 20, 2010, 06:23:43 AM
:cloud9: Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My :2c: Blessings....
The Enemy truly is craft as far as the United States is concerned. Subtle persecution, the sort that isn't easy to counter through laws, and courts, a stake burner would go to prison, but getting caught on fire, being fired from a job, being persecuted in a different way is easy to dismiss from the legal system...
But blessed is our Lord who is so clever! When we cannot appeal to the laws, and courts of men we go straight for the Throne of the Highest, the supremest of courts, the court of the one who is above all other names Supreme by Being, that great I AM who can over turn nations, and wipe away verdant land into deserts, and make deserts into living fertile grounds, the one saviour of all men, and the father of every nation! Who chastens his children - for he is a good father indeed! Every nation is his child, and the Lord shall chasten for their remedy the straying of their ways - Blessed is the name of our mighty God whose judgments are righteous! And whose wonders are beyond compare!
Mammon the idol of The West will be broken, and the prophets who dance around him will be slain, the poles of Ashera, and the fertility gods of sex, and whoredom will burn in their groves! O' Blessed are you beautiful God of purity! You who are an all consuming fire who will burn away the dross of our iniquity with your omnipresent hand! You who searches the hearts of our congressmen, our politicians, and our economists! You who will turn evil into good, and make pity into power! You who by your glory and for your glory shall cleanse the world from its vices, and raise up a godly generation who will worship you in Spirit and in Truth!
Let thy kingdom come o' King of Kings, Let thy kingdom come and never end! Your reign is deathless, into the ages of the ages, and beyond to the incorruptible width, and breadth, and span that is your infinite grace, strength, and majesty!
In Jesus' name let your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, with obedience from the heart, with obedience out of Love, where strife ceases, and hatred is dead, filled with the love that is Life! Mighty God, may your will be done, and blessed Father, let the wills of your children align with yours!
May you raise up a genuine generation, an honest host, and a truthful tribe, to be blessed among the nations, who will infect the world with your testimony, and with your triumphant glory! Immune to the plagues of iniquity, and immune to the pestilence of sinful, and adulterous cultures!
A spiritual Israel, real and made manifest out of the womb of your power, and your giving, sustaining, vivifying Love!
In Jesus' name! In the name of Ieshua! Your son and the saviour of every soul ever made who died on a cross for Death itself to die along with Him, never to rise again, left in the tomb where it belongs, as our resurrected Lord did leave it behind, Truth, Love, and Life living once more amongst the Living - to live forever, and forever to stay!
Amen!
Quote from: Lefein on October 20, 2010, 03:53:40 AM
It is because we (Christians in general in the US, most of which are nominal to not thoroughly serious in the Faith) are working under a false premise.
"If you aren't for us, you're against us"
Of course, most Christians aren't Universal Reconciliationists either. Once that becomes the accepted doctrine of Salvation, the persecutions will be met with a very, very different (and inevitably much more positive) response.
Christian being "attacked" by an unbeliever in the present situtation:
"I'll see you in Hell! You godless sinner! (after getting a wrong order at starbucks)"
Christian being attacked by an unbeliever in the future situtation:
"I'll see you in Heaven eventually, see ya! *gets burnt at the stake*"
:mshock: :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 06:25:22 AM
Quote from: FurstbornIt's not about Christianity though - it's about free speech.
Really.
Name the Muslim or Atheist [Communist], Hindu or Buddhist country that has free speech guaranteed by its Constitution and upheld in the courts...
I suppose you think we can decouple our Constitution from its roots? Good luck with that. History says you are wrong.
I like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.
You still label countries by religion. Countries aren't people. They are systems/regions which have agendas.
You are still out to proclaim "we are superior" which is not a part of the answer - it's a part of the problem.
But you yourself are obviously out to help in the best way you know how, so please take my (frank) words in the spirit of love in which they are intended. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on October 20, 2010, 06:23:43 AM
:cloud9: Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My :2c: Blessings....
Cardinal - you know I love. So please hear me.
I have heard for over 50 years (yep - since I was 3) about how the Russians were going to invade us, about how the government was going to padlock all the churches and put all the "Christians" in concentration camps.
The real deal is that:
The powers that be have always oppressed certain people groups for various reasons. AISI the true Spirit of Christ is that which fights oppression, fights for the poor, and fights for equity.
If people don't like you or look at you funny because you have ideas that are foreign to them - that does NOT = oppression/persecution. Are you being arrested for your faith? No, you aren't. Are you being killed in the U.S, for being a Christian? No. Therefore - you are NOT being persecuted.
Yet most fundamentalists claim they are being persecuted - even as the ACLU backs up Fred Phelps in the name of liberty.
See what I mean? :dontknow:
Quote from: FirstbornI like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.
well, I'm not being glib about it. I'm trying to stick to history because history predicts the future more reliably than anything else.
State atheism has been defined as the official "promotion of atheism" by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1].
State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practised during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Only socialist states have done so since. State atheism may include active opposition to religion, and persecution of religious institutions, leaders and believers. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[2] in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism and stay away from churches; this attitude was especially militant under Joseph Stalin.[3][4][5] The Soviet Union attempted to suppress religion over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia.[6] The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion.[7
By 1970 all 22 nations of central and eastern Europe which were behind the Iron Curtain were de jure atheistic, promoting it, ideologically linked to it and opposed on principle to all religion.[17] Communist regimes elsewhere took similar approaches.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheismAnd, so forth...
But, of course, atheists like to pretend they are pristine of all religion--so seperation of church and state would never apply to them.
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 08:44:02 AM
Quote from: FirstbornI like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.
well, I'm not being glib about it. I'm trying to stick to history because history predicts the future more reliably than anything else.
State atheism has been defined as the official "promotion of atheism" by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1].
State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practised during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Only socialist states have done so since. State atheism may include active opposition to religion, and persecution of religious institutions, leaders and believers. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[2] in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism and stay away from churches; this attitude was especially militant under Joseph Stalin.[3][4][5] The Soviet Union attempted to suppress religion over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia.[6] The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion.[7
By 1970 all 22 nations of central and eastern Europe which were behind the Iron Curtain were de jure atheistic, promoting it, ideologically linked to it and opposed on principle to all religion.[17] Communist regimes elsewhere took similar approaches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
And, so forth...
But, of course, atheists like to pretend they are pristine of all religion--so seperation of church and state would never apply to them.
Atheists have a fringe just like Christianity does. Both would like to oppress and shut down the other. Both are un-Christ-like.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 20, 2010, 08:54:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 08:44:02 AM
Quote from: FirstbornI like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.
well, I'm not being glib about it. I'm trying to stick to history because history predicts the future more reliably than anything else.
State atheism has been defined as the official "promotion of atheism" by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1].
State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practised during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Only socialist states have done so since. State atheism may include active opposition to religion, and persecution of religious institutions, leaders and believers. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[2] in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism and stay away from churches; this attitude was especially militant under Joseph Stalin.[3][4][5] The Soviet Union attempted to suppress religion over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia.[6] The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion.[7
By 1970 all 22 nations of central and eastern Europe which were behind the Iron Curtain were de jure atheistic, promoting it, ideologically linked to it and opposed on principle to all religion.[17] Communist regimes elsewhere took similar approaches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
And, so forth...
But, of course, atheists like to pretend they are pristine of all religion--so seperation of church and state would never apply to them.
Atheists have a fringe just like Christianity does. Both would like to oppress and shut down the other. Both are un-Christ-like.
22 nations of eastern and central europe plus all of communist China is not a fringe. It's several billion people living under atheistic governments that outlaw, suppress, and murder those of faith.
Practically speaking, I don't want to live there. Do you?
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 09:00:10 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 20, 2010, 08:54:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 08:44:02 AM
Quote from: FirstbornI like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.
well, I'm not being glib about it. I'm trying to stick to history because history predicts the future more reliably than anything else.
State atheism has been defined as the official "promotion of atheism" by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1].
State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practised during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Only socialist states have done so since. State atheism may include active opposition to religion, and persecution of religious institutions, leaders and believers. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[2] in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism and stay away from churches; this attitude was especially militant under Joseph Stalin.[3][4][5] The Soviet Union attempted to suppress religion over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia.[6] The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion.[7
By 1970 all 22 nations of central and eastern Europe which were behind the Iron Curtain were de jure atheistic, promoting it, ideologically linked to it and opposed on principle to all religion.[17] Communist regimes elsewhere took similar approaches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
And, so forth...
But, of course, atheists like to pretend they are pristine of all religion--so seperation of church and state would never apply to them.
Atheists have a fringe just like Christianity does. Both would like to oppress and shut down the other. Both are un-Christ-like.
22 nations of eastern and central europe plus all of communist China is not a fringe. It's several billion people living under atheistic governments that outlaw, suppress, and murder those of faith.
Practically speaking, I don't want to live there. Do you?
Okay - I see you are talking about state mandated atheism/communism, while I was talking about democracy loving atheists in America.
We are in agreement about human freedom.
This red commie atheist scare hype needs to be put to rest though. No one is proposing a state mandated ban on freedom of religion in America. All I am arguing against is the state backing any religious creed and the American Christian paranoia about atheists in the U.S.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 20, 2010, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 20, 2010, 06:23:43 AM
:cloud9: Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My :2c: Blessings....
Cardinal - you know I love. So please hear me.
I have heard for over 50 years (yep - since I was 3) about how the Russians were going to invade us, about how the government was going to padlock all the churches and put all the "Christians" in concentration camps.
The real deal is that:
The powers that be have always oppressed certain people groups for various reasons. AISI the true Spirit of Christ is that which fights oppression, fights for the poor, and fights for equity.
If people don't like you or look at you funny because you have ideas that are foreign to them - that does NOT = oppression/persecution. Are you being arrested for your faith? No, you aren't. Are you being killed in the U.S, for being a Christian? No. Therefore - you are NOT being persecuted.
Yet most fundamentalists claim they are being persecuted - even as the ACLU backs up Fred Phelps in the name of liberty.
See what I mean? :dontknow:
:cloud9: I see what you are saying, but you didn't define persecution as being murdered, or arrested. I guess loss of jobs, being black-balled from churches, loss of spouses, rejection of family members, ect., does not count as persecution under that strict definition, but they are a real thorn in the flesh to those of us who have experienced that aspect of the cross, are they not? THAT was my point.......Blessings.....
That's exactly what I woke up thinking this morning; what's the definition of persecution.
persecute - 1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.
We can be paranoid and exaggerate. But I personally don't think one has to do so to see a true believer in Yesu will have trials, tribulations, aka, persecutions. "Take up your cross..."
I ran a little scripture search on persecution;
"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
—Matthew 5:10-12
John 15:18-20
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. —John 15:18-20
Acts 14:21-22
...encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
Romans 8:35-39
As it is written,
"For your sake we are being killed [spiritually] all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
2 Corinthians 4:8-11
We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; ["EXPERIENCE OF THE CROSS"] always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.—2 Corinthians 4:8-11
2 Timothy 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
1 Peter 4:12-14
...If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.
1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
Thought; God said the world hates Him, and would hate true believers who stand for the truth. So why would a God-hating world want to admit their persecution of Christians? I think they would tend to minimize it, normalize it, and villify the recipient. Persecution to death? Many places in the world. From www.freerepublic.com - More Christians have been killed for their faith in the 20th century than have been martyred in the total history of Christianity. In America? NOT YET. Pray that God intervenes and heals us individually, and our nation as a whole.
Count it all joy! Pray for those who persecute you. Seek first the Kingdom of God!
God has never lost control.
I believe you are correct Jab yet the meanings of persecution and tribulation are somewhat different from what todays understandings are. I trully believe that people in any country who have controllers that are full of hate and wickedness do not
need a religion to commit the persecution and atrocities. I dont think it really makes a difference, if these rulers want to
persecute they will. My :2c:
"God has never lost control." Amen and Amen!
Yeah, I believe there's a wide range within the definition. I think, dislike, disdain, avoidance, harrassment, rejection all fit in the category - and the one the scriptures specifically mention is 'hate'.
I think of "what fellowship has light with darkness", "you are not of the world", etc. As I see it, the difference is/should be, it's natural for the world (those not as yet spiritually renewed from above, who reject the things of God and identify with satanic influence) to hate believers on Yesu - but we are to love our enemies, not repay evil with evil, and pray for those who persecute us - thus being salt and light. :2c:
You know, also, I don't personally feel real persecuted. I think it's probably at least partially because I don't speak up enough for things of the Lord, be more of a witness, etc. :mblush:
Not everyone suffers the same way Jabcat. Sometimes, we just don't notice when we are being persecuted. Silent lambs, and we don't even know if we're supposed to bleat or not :laughing7: we are that focused on Jesus. :thumbsup:
Thats how "we" may "feel" but its been my experience to be silent[especially when "i" want to speak] and bind the "times." I have spoke up years ago and began more heated debates that did good, but when "i" wait and KNOW that it is the Lord, then should I recieve "troubles" I regard that and know it as a blessing.
I really believe that alot of the problems that are happening in America today that christianity calls persecution is just the "christian movement" getting in the face of their opposition and provoking, just to create the heat.
Example, school prayer, Ive always felt that if I were in a place that didnt approve of me praying, Id just pray like I always pray and nobody would ever be upset. I've always felt that the school prayer movement was like the guy standing there and boastng of may things and the other guy praying in humilty not wanting to make a spectacle. (Cant find the verse)
Quote from: Cardinal on October 20, 2010, 03:28:05 PM
:cloud9: I see what you are saying, but you didn't define persecution as being murdered, or arrested. I guess loss of jobs, being black-balled from churches, loss of spouses, rejection of family members, ect., does not count as persecution under that strict definition, but they are a real thorn in the flesh to those of us who have experienced that aspect of the cross, are they not? THAT was my point.......Blessings.....
Then the exact same thing could be said about Wiccans, gays, atheists - whoever. Here in the bible belt those people groups can be really harassed - just for being different.
Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2010, 09:14:28 PM
Yeah, I believe there's a wide range within the definition. I think, dislike, disdain, avoidance, harrassment, rejection all fit in the category - and the one the scriptures specifically mention is 'hate'.
I think of "what fellowship has light with darkness", "you are not of the world", etc. As I see it, the difference is/should be, it's natural for the world (those not as yet spiritually renewed from above, who reject the things of God and identify with satanic influence) to hate believers on Yesu - but we are to love our enemies, not repay evil with evil, and pray for those who persecute us - thus being salt and light. :2c:
AISI being "persecuted" for righteousness would mean suffering for not going along with other's plans to NOT love one's neighbor as one's self, that is, to be hated for defending the rights of the oppressed and the outcasts and those rejected/neglected by society. Calling out the corrupt powers which profit from the misery of others will get you some real persecution for sure.
What I see though is that many Christians (especially the right wing religious movement I have a problem with), instead of fighting for justice and equity fight for dominance and preference in society
and fight against their own perceived persecution.
For example - when people run around saying that God is fixing to come and burn all the unbelievers with torturous fire forever and that all the gays are going straight to hell and Obama (or the Pope) is the anti-Christ etc. - the average person instinctively knows this is hogwash. Then, when the negative reaction occurs those proclaiming this nonsense claim "persecution".
To all: I'm a conservative. I think government is too big and that government based socialism is a really bad idea. So I do appreciate the aspect of the right wing and tea party movements which wants to turn things around fiscally.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 10:38:49 PM
Thats how "we" may "feel" but its been my experience to be silent[especially when "i" want to speak] and bind the "times." I have spoke up years ago and began more heated debates that did good, but when "i" wait and KNOW that it is the Lord, then should I recieve "troubles" I regard that and know it as a blessing.
I really believe that alot of the problems that are happening in America today that christianity calls persecution is just the "christian movement" getting in the face of their opposition and provoking, just to create the heat.
Example, school prayer, Ive always felt that if I were in a place that didnt approve of me praying, Id just pray like I always pray and nobody would ever be upset. I've always felt that the school prayer movement was like the guy standing there and boastng of may things and the other guy praying in humilty not wanting to make a spectacle. (Cant find the verse)
"When you pray enter into your closet" (ie: be not as the Pharisees who make long public prayers for a show).
:cloud9: Which would be praying in the Spirit, the heart/closet. The priesthood of the had a section in the middle for the priests, the name of which lines up with chamber/rib. Blessings....
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 20, 2010, 11:09:14 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 20, 2010, 03:28:05 PM
:cloud9: I see what you are saying, but you didn't define persecution as being murdered, or arrested. I guess loss of jobs, being black-balled from churches, loss of spouses, rejection of family members, ect., does not count as persecution under that strict definition, but they are a real thorn in the flesh to those of us who have experienced that aspect of the cross, are they not? THAT was my point.......Blessings.....
Then the exact same thing could be said about Wiccans, gays, atheists - whoever. Here in the bible belt those people groups can be really harassed - just for being different.
:cloud9: The difference is, from what I've observed of His ways, one group was persecuted for righteousness, the other for unrighteousness. It's a hard concept to express but God is not at all bothered by what some perceive as "discrimination". Think OT for examples.
He rains on the just and the unjust equally, but the EFFECT of the rain is by design quite different on both, as that rain is as a double edged sword. It makes whole the spirit, but slaughters the flesh. So the more flesh you are walking in as opposed to walking in His Spirit, the more that rain feels like fire. So with this principle, it's obvious that those that are pretty much blinded to His Spirit such as the ones you mentioned above, are in a sense, being discrimated against by divine order.
The difference there is, the motive of the heart. God's motive in that "discrimination" is that His judgments are unto victory. When carnal men dish it out, the motive is impure by it's very nature. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 20, 2010, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 20, 2010, 06:23:43 AM
:cloud9: Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My :2c: Blessings....
Cardinal - you know I love. So please hear me.
I have heard for over 50 years (yep - since I was 3) about how the Russians were going to invade us, about how the government was going to padlock all the churches and put all the "Christians" in concentration camps.
The real deal is that:
The powers that be have always oppressed certain people groups for various reasons. AISI the true Spirit of Christ is that which fights oppression, fights for the poor, and fights for equity.
If people don't like you or look at you funny because you have ideas that are foreign to them - that does NOT = oppression/persecution. Are you being arrested for your faith? No, you aren't. Are you being killed in the U.S, for being a Christian? No. Therefore - you are NOT being persecuted.
Yet most fundamentalists claim they are being persecuted - even as the ACLU backs up Fred Phelps in the name of liberty.
See what I mean? :dontknow:
It's about living righteous. Today in the western world, christians don't get killed because they proclaim Jesus, but today living rightoeusly in a corrupt environment is a major challenge. When there are violent gangsters on the streets, prostitutes, bad language at every turn, laws passed to prevent someone wearing a cross and seductive billboard ads, overtaxation, taxes used to fund evil foundations with temptations everywhere, spirits of violence and filth everywhere this according to the bible vexes the righteous soul and can be defined as persecution.
Numbers 20:15
How our fathers went down into Egypt, and we have dwelt in Egypt a long time; and the Egyptians vexed us, and our fathers:
Judges 2:18
And when the Lord raised them up judges, then the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the Lord because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
When a christian swims in vomit it's not a pleasant experience and many christians end up being consumed by the constant temptations, thus no longer a soldier of christ they becomes one as the enemy, the pride of some christians think they are invincible because their God is, only to find out the hard way as solomon did, that constantly hanging around with the woman (The world) draw them away from God and his commandments.
2Peter2
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Judges 16:16
And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, so that his soul was vexed unto death;
Today we live in a democratic legalistic world where words kill, and those snakes who use these words of death then mock their enemies by saying that those words are as nothing.
How true are these scriptures for USA
Ezekiel 22:29
The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.
Ezekiel 22:5
Those that be near, and those that be far from thee, shall mock thee, which art infamous and much vexed.
Psalm 14:4
Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.
But fear not my people sayeth the lord
Nehemiah 9:27
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble,
when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
Wow, some of you guys are so good at handling these quote boxes. I don't kno how you do it! :laughing7:
:cloud9: You just hit the quote button of whosever post you want to quote......if you don't want the whole of it reproduced, just delete out what you don't want. As long as the beginning frame and the end "[/quote]" is at the end of whatever you chose, it will reproduce it. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on October 21, 2010, 01:05:13 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 20, 2010, 11:09:14 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 20, 2010, 03:28:05 PM
:cloud9: I see what you are saying, but you didn't define persecution as being murdered, or arrested. I guess loss of jobs, being black-balled from churches, loss of spouses, rejection of family members, ect., does not count as persecution under that strict definition, but they are a real thorn in the flesh to those of us who have experienced that aspect of the cross, are they not? THAT was my point.......Blessings.....
Then the exact same thing could be said about Wiccans, gays, atheists - whoever. Here in the bible belt those people groups can be really harassed - just for being different.
:cloud9: The difference is, from what I've observed of His ways, one group was persecuted for righteousness, the other for unrighteousness. It's a hard concept to express but God is not at all bothered by what some perceive as "discrimination". Think OT for examples.
He rains on the just and the unjust equally, but the EFFECT of the rain is by design quite different on both, as that rain is as a double edged sword. It makes whole the spirit, but slaughters the flesh. So the more flesh you are walking in as opposed to walking in His Spirit, the more that rain feels like fire. So with this principle, it's obvious that those that are pretty much blinded to His Spirit such as the ones you mentioned above, are in a sense, being discrimated against by divine order.
The difference there is, the motive of the heart. God's motive in that "discrimination" is that His judgments are unto victory. When carnal men dish it out, the motive is impure by it's very nature. My :2c: Blessings....
You're ascribing evil to people simply because they don't belong to your creedal group ("Christianity") instead of ascribing it accurately (by the contents of their hearts). If they are
not the ones oppressing the poor, not the ones harming, not the ones abusing others and if they are in fact feeding and clothing and visiting those in need and why would you judge them as deserving of divine persecution?
Notice how Jesus never ever complained about these types of people. Only about the ones who ascribed righteousness to themselves and unrighteousness to others simply because the others didn't belong to their special group. This is the way of the world, the way of hypocrisy.
It seems to me that some have been inside their exclusive bible club for so long that they fail to see reality any longer. They judge righteousness by correct catch phrases, correct theology and by using bible verses to back up everything they think and say. By their own perceived closeness to God and other's distance, seeing their lives as spiritual and others as carnal - even when the practical evidence shows otherwise.
I too was once a persecutor of those outside the bounds of "Christianity".
:cloud9: No, I'm not persecuting anyone because they are not of my "creed", I'm applying revealed spiritual principles to what exists "out there". There are principles established that are not subject to our ideas about them, that's just the way it is because He said so. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so there is no guesswork involved in ascertaining those groups heart motives.
Just because some do what appears to be good works, that does not exempt them from the principle, ie. that they are subject to the rain that burns like fire until every knee has bowed and every tongue confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord (IN them), which is the only abundance of the heart that counts for anything. Good works don't work for anyone in this dispensation, because the HG has been given the works to do THRU us, and His primary function is to change our hearts first and then the rest of humanity. He came to drag us to the cross; some go willingly, others, uh, not so much, LOL.
Even though God is all about UR, that doesn't mean He doesn't use judgment to bring the flesh in line with the Spirit. A man that does not disipline his child HATES his child, and God does not hate his children. "Permissive" love, that seems to be an stumbling block to some that have gained their freedom thru the knowledge of UR, is not God's love. The unconditional love that accompanies the UR message has been used unrighteously to condone and thereby reward unrighteousness, IMO. From my point of view, it's become almost an "I'm ok, you're ok" humanist message.
In my own life, my daughter (who was born after the "flood", LOL) has never known anything but unconditional love from me and she recognizes it as such. But what I've found is, that that alone is insufficient to bring up a child in the way they should go, because though we love them unconditionally, there must be a judgment to the things of flesh, cutting off the tares, else the tare will thrive from the lawlessness and overcome the wheat. This kind of unconditional love without an aspect of judgment to the flesh, is as salt with the savor removed that is good for nothing but to be cast out. Salt is the part of it that SHOULD burn, and also acts as a preservative and a sanctifier. This is why the offerings were given with salt. My :2c: Blessings....
Altho martyrdom is the clearest and most extreme form of persecution- loss of jobs, property, exclusion by family and ejection from churches are, IMO, absolutely forms of persecution. The idea that there is not persecution in the USA because no one is being murdered by the government (yet) is short sighted. It will not be long now before Christians go to jail for teaching their own children that homosexuality is a dysfunctional lifestyle and not acceptable before God. Soon the government will be intruding into church services in order to prevent believers from offering salvation to the homosexual community, and creating a line of distinction concerning proper conduct.
The wages of sin is death. Whether we declare it or not. But the salt that preserves our offerings is tied up in the declaration, because in it the discernment/judgment of God is revealed. Proclaiming the gospel is not persecution of anyone- but it certainly offends, and it is supposed to. Our Saviour is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. Blessed are the ones who are not offended in Him. The prophetic word functions inside the house as fire on the offerings, offending as it exposes and enlightens. Outside the house it offends as it exposes the works of darkness and presents the appeal, "Be saved from this wicked and perverse generation".
If any man will live godly in Christ Jesus he shall suffer persecution.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 21, 2010, 03:48:24 PMThe idea that there is not persecution in the USA because no one is being murdered by the government (yet) is short sighted. It will not be long now before Christians go to jail for teaching their own children that homosexuality is a dysfunctional lifestyle and not acceptable before God. Soon the government will be intruding into church services in order to prevent believers from offering salvation to the homosexual community, and creating a line of distinction concerning proper conduct.
Won't be long, eh? Don't hold your breath :winkgrin:. They've been saying "it won't be long" since my mom was a little girl 7 decades ago.
I'm trying to be frank but kind. This end-time fear mongering/expectation of doom and gloom is a carnal expectation. Even though Paul said almost 2000 years ago "The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light" human nature somehow wants to hold onto the certainty of doom and gloom and evil prevailing. This belief is a misunderstanding of spiritual truths and actually perpetuates the darkness.
It is only a carnal expectation to those who have not experienced it.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 21, 2010, 02:40:42 PM
:cloud9: No, I'm not persecuting anyone because they are not of my "creed", I'm applying revealed spiritual principles to what exists "out there". There are principles established that are not subject to our ideas about them, that's just the way it is because He said so. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so there is no guesswork involved in ascertaining those groups heart motives.
Just because some do what appears to be good works, that does not exempt them from the principle, ie. that they are subject to the rain that burns like fire until every knee has bowed and every tongue confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord (IN them), which is the only abundance of the heart that counts for anything. Good works don't work for anyone in this dispensation, because the HG has been given the works to do THRU us, and His primary function is to change our hearts first and then the rest of humanity. He came to drag us to the cross; some go willingly, others, uh, not so much, LOL.
Even though God is all about UR, that doesn't mean He doesn't use judgment to bring the flesh in line with the Spirit. A man that does not disipline his child HATES his child, and God does not hate his children. "Permissive" love, that seems to be an stumbling block to some that have gained their freedom thru the knowledge of UR, is not God's love. The unconditional love that accompanies the UR message has been used unrighteously to condone and thereby reward unrighteousness, IMO. From my point of view, it's become almost an "I'm ok, you're ok" humanist message.
In my own life, my daughter (who was born after the "flood", LOL) has never known anything but unconditional love from me and she recognizes it as such. But what I've found is, that that alone is insufficient to bring up a child in the way they should go, because though we love them unconditionally, there must be a judgment to the things of flesh, cutting off the tares, else the tare will thrive from the lawlessness and overcome the wheat. This kind of unconditional love without an aspect of judgment to the flesh, is as salt with the savor removed that is good for nothing but to be cast out. Salt is the part of it that SHOULD burn, and also acts as a preservative and a sanctifier. This is why the offerings were given with salt. My :2c: Blessings....
I don't disagree with much of what you wrote above EXCEPT the notion that only people who believe the bible or call themselves Christians are a part of the burning/cleansing/transformation. It actually has nothing to do with receiving unconditional love either - it ONLY involves empathy - the ability to love another as yourself and put yourself in another's shoes.
Religion separates humanity from God and complicates simple spiritual truths. In religion "human" becomes a dirty word and perpetuates the false sense of guilt and unworthiness already perpetuating the spiritual ignorance/blindness in the masses. In short - it becomes just another brick in the wall and in Christianity - it reduces the name "Jesus" to a magic phrase which you repeat in order to be "okay with God" and if anyone doesn't say the magic word then their love and pain and fire trials and abundance are seen as meaningless.
The reason I'm making a fuss here is because of the many posts proving that many do not see humanity as God sees humanity. Worrying about their own rights instead of fighting for the rights of all humans to live in peace, - for those things you rightfully say "are not subject to our ideas about them".
As long as we take an "us verses them" tribal mentality we become a part of the problem - not a part of the answer.
And as confident as I may seem in my correctness, this is, as you say, just my :2c: worth (I do understand that part!).
I hope I am opening some eyes at least a little to see something new. I learn something from every post I read AND write so really, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to think. If my words don't resonate with you - just chunk 'em! :laughing7:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 21, 2010, 04:24:55 PM
It is only a carnal expectation to those who have not experienced it.
I'm not sure what you mean by that (exactly). Could you expound a bit?
End-time fear mongering is such a catch all phrase. I have been a disciple of Christ for 33 years and the trends in this country are really very distinct. It is not my intention to say that by the day after tomoro we will all be hiding in our basements from big brother, or from the devil. I don't believe in "salvation through America".
What I am saying is that persecution of Christians in the US is becoming a reality, and will continue to be more so unless something occurs to change the current trends. Personally, I have no fear of this, it is merely an opportunity for the true gospel to shine. However, I will say that militant homosexuality is a trend identifier, a timing device, if you will - evidence that the salt is no longer preserving, and corruption is eating into the very marrow of a society. I believe that the selective enforcement of speech laws against Christians and in favor of homosexuals and other militant minorities is just one example of a climate change in our country that believers ought to be aware of. These "carnal expectations" as you call them, may just be signs of the times that you are indifferent to, or unaware of.
Quote from: FirstbornThe reason I'm making a fuss here is because of the many posts proving that many do not see humanity as God sees humanity. Worrying about their own rights instead of fighting for the rights of all humans to live in peace, - for those things you rightfully say "are not subject to our ideas about them".
If a standing army were marching across our borders, would you take this attitude? Yet, that is what is happening today and it has been happening for decades. When that event happened 9 years ago, I said over and over again, instead of trashing our Constitution because we are supposedly no longer safe inside our own country, why don't they just close our borders? People just stared at me. It was not something they seemed to be able to process. But to leave our borders wide open while simultaneously building up a huge internal legal and bureacratic threat to freedom makes no sense unless that is the plan. Today you can no longer board a plane without facing the prospect of literally undressing in front of strangers, and 'homelandsecurity' represents the biggest expansion to government since the new deal. This is not the country I grew up in.
You will know them by their fruits. They are trashing our Constitution because that is their goal, and they are letting standing armies cross our border, indeed, even inviting them in because that is their goal. Someone is trying to change the very nature of this country, and they are succeeding. If no one pushes back, you will not recognize the country you were born into--my guess, within the next 5 to 10 years.
I consider the country I grew up in a gift from God. My freedom is very precious to me. I thank God I grew up in a Christian country. But, I have also seen vast changes in my lifetime. About 15 years ago, they started with the political correctness nonsense and beating the drum on tolerance in preparation for their last big immigration push. We no longer have the freedom of speech we had 15 years ago because of it. I've watched Canada and the western nations fall one by one as political correctness started becoming legalized. "hate speech' legislation is the beginning of the end for freedom of speech. Christians are being arrested for their faith in Dearborn, MI and English is becoming a second language in some parts of the southwest. The indigenous population seems to be the only ones practicing tolerance.
Last year, about 700 thousand people became legal citizens. Hundreds of thousands more poured across our borders illegally. Whoever is controlling this influx of new people, it isn't me. Whoever is controlling it could care less what I think about anything. I know this because they keep marching forward with their plan, no matter what I or anyone else like me has to say about it. We are a country of about 300 million people. What do you think is going to happen the day congress grants amnesty to 50 million people [my guess at the current number] who are not citizens but living within our borders and puts them on a fast track to citizenship? The nature of this country will virtually change overnight. And, how it does will not be up to you because not everyone around the world considers freedom the most precious gift that God has given us, and a gift that is not appreciated will be easily taken away.
The problem is that when you mix politics with anything, even government, it becomes one gigantic muddy mess.
Religion and politics don't mix, government and politics don't mix...heck, even BEANS and politics don't mix!
I dunno, I like a little beans with my politics :icon_joker:
Quote from: Molly on October 21, 2010, 05:50:29 PM
Quote from: FirstbornThe reason I'm making a fuss here is because of the many posts proving that many do not see humanity as God sees humanity. Worrying about their own rights instead of fighting for the rights of all humans to live in peace, - for those things you rightfully say "are not subject to our ideas about them".
If a standing army were marching across our borders, would you take this attitude? Yet, that is what is happening today and it has been happening for decades. When that event happened 9 years ago, I said over and over again, instead of trashing our Constitution because we are supposedly no longer safe inside our own country, why don't they just close our borders? People just stared at me. It was not something they seemed to be able to process. But to leave our borders wide open while simultaneously building up a huge internal legal and bureacratic threat to freedom makes no sense unless that is the plan. Today you can no longer board a plane without facing the prospect of literally undressing in front of strangers, and 'homelandsecurity' represents the biggest expansion to government since the new deal. This is not the country I grew up in.
You will know them by their fruits. They are trashing our Constitution because that is their goal, and they are letting standing armies cross our border, indeed, even inviting them in because that is their goal. Someone is trying to change the very nature of this country, and they are succeeding. If no one pushes back, you will not recognize the country you were born into--my guess, within the next 5 to 10 years.
I consider the country I grew up in a gift from God. My freedom is very precious to me. I thank God I grew up in a Christian country. But, I have also seen vast changes in my lifetime. About 15 years ago, they started with the political correctness nonsense and beating the drum on tolerance in preparation for their last big immigration push. We no longer have the freedom of speech we had 15 years ago because of it. I've watched Canada and the western nations fall one by one as political correctness started becoming legalized. "hate speech' legislation is the beginning of the end for freedom of speech. Christians are being arrested for their faith in Dearborn, MI and English is becoming a second language in some parts of the southwest. The indigenous population seems to be the only ones practicing tolerance.
Last year, about 700 thousand people became legal citizens. Hundreds of thousands more poured across our borders illegally. Whoever is controlling this influx of new people, it isn't me. Whoever is controlling it could care less what I think about anything. I know this because they keep marching forward with their plan, no matter what I or anyone else like me has to say about it. We are a country of about 300 million people. What do you think is going to happen the day congress grants amnesty to 50 million people [my guess at the current number] who are not citizens but living within our borders and puts them on a fast track to citizenship? The nature of this country will virtually change overnight. And, how it does will not be up to you because not everyone around the world considers freedom the most precious gift that God has given us, and a gift that is not appreciated will be easily taken away.
Once again - I am in agreement with most of your points. Once again my main disagreement comes from the perceived Christian persecution. When 4 people in Dearborn get arrested, then released and charges dropped AND the DPD is getting sued over it I think it's WAY over the top to say "Christians
are being arrested for their faith in Dearborn, MI. You make it sound like they are out rounding up Christians which (of course) is not the case at all.
Maybe it will happen one day but when these little incidents have to be seized upon and then exaggerated - that tells me something.
Keep fighting the good fight Molly. We need to keep America free which includes keeping the government the hell out of spiritual matters.
I'm just thankful the Kingdom of God will be devoid of politics entirely. Politics really is the single most useless invention mankind ever made...Sometimes I think the bible mistranslated Genesis when it came to the curse; Thou shalt have politics the rest of thy days! :icon_joker:
In all seriousness though, when it comes to both parties, and this...weird thing "Tea party" I'm completely disgusted with it all. I miss the good old days, when you could just...Raid the next town, and steal their gold, goods, and women...Have a recession? Well its because you didn't have enough soldiers! :icon_joker:
...And pork was what you ate, not what you hid in a bill :laughing7: Ah the good old days, when pigs were pigs, and eating them was an abomination...lol.
Anyway, back to being really serious; I don't think government is the problem, so much as the complete dishonesty in the whole situation. I'd rather have an honest government, than an effective political movement any day.
Why were they arrested? I haven't looked into it. Is it, or is it not alarming that could even possibly happen in America? And if they weren't being "totally inappropriate" (however that may best be defined), why would we not see their arrest as a) incredible, b)unacceptable, and c) alarming if not frightening? Does anyone really believe that would have been remotely possible even 25 years ago?
Again, I don't know the details...I'm just sayin' "if", then IMO, this doesn't have to be "overblown" to know we got trouble in Motor City.
But......................God has called us to speak the truth, live peaceably, expect to be rebuffed by the world, rejoice and live joyfully (count it all joy), love our enemies, pray for those that persecute us, don't repay evil with evil, care for the orphans and widows - AND SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD. It's spiritual warfare. Seeking Jesus is the answer, seeking the Kingdom, and then all things will be added...
:cloud9: I don't understand why people think "religion" and politics shouldn't mix. :dontknow: I see this as a lie of the enemy that made Christians think they were staying out of the "world" by not "taking the land" their feet stood upon. Our God appointed kings and brought down kings; sound pretty political to me, LOL. Blessings....
Here's the outcome of the arrested Christians in Dearborn. They were taken to trial by the city and won.--
Jury Acquits the Four Christian Evangelists Arrested For Proselytizing at the Dearborn Arab Festival .
Wednesday, 29 September 2010 06:13 Right Side News .Even after the acquittals, Dearborn's mayor, Jack O'Reilly, continued his ongoing and unprecedented personal attacks on the Christian evangelists, accusing them of being anti–Muslim bigots
ANN ARBOR, MI – Late Friday evening, a jury of six Dearborn, Michigan residents returned a unanimous verdict of not guilty of breach of the peace charges, which were brought by the Dearborn Police Department against four Christian evangelists as they were peacefully proselytizing to Muslim youths during the Arab International Festival on June 18, 2010.
http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010092911783/us/islam-in-america/jury-acquits-the-four-christian-evangelists-arrested-for-proselytizing-at-the-dearborn-arab-festival.html
Here's a video of what was happening when the Christians were arrested--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJSwfalU5Gc
Sounds like persecution to me. Would it be considered persecution if Muslims attempting to hand out tracts to Christians were arrested?
IMO, extremes are extremes. Saying everything is persecution (which I really don't know anyone that does that, unless they're mentally ill, paranoid) is extreme. OTOH, saying nothing other than martyrdom qualifies as persecution, so there's therefor no persecution occurring in the US, is also extreme. As is often the case, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on October 22, 2010, 07:27:56 AM
Sounds like persecution to me. Would it be considered persecution if Muslims attempting to hand out tracts to Christians were arrested?
Bottom line: One mayor in one town has a problem. The Christians
won their case. Conclusion: free speech is still the law and Christians are NOT being persecuted in America anymore than the other zillion people who have been arrested for whatever and then cleared.
NO churches are being padlocked (like the fear-mongers have been claiming was "about" to happen at LEAST since the 40's).
Second conclusion: Christian persecution complex is operating. Overtime.
This is a simple free-speech issue. No big devil getting ready to take over.
Quote from: jabcat on October 22, 2010, 07:27:56 AM
IMO, extremes are extremes. Saying everything is persecution (which I really don't know anyone that does that, unless they're mentally ill, paranoid) is extreme. OTOH, saying nothing other than martyrdom qualifies as persecution, so there's therefor no persecution occurring in the US, is also extreme. As is often the case, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. :2c:
Biblically - any national persecution involved (at a minimum) people being displaced and "scattered abroad" through fear of harm. Christians are not leaving the U.S. en masse (if at all) due to fear of harm. Big clue that it is not happening at this time, right?
I believe I may have a broader definition (as I noted earlier, including with multiple scripture) and/or you're talking about something I'm not exactly talking about. Again, I don't personally think an extreme view in either direction is accurate. I believe we're constantly affected and influenced by experiences and influences that color our view; sometimes, we can over-react and be affected to the point of being biased and distorted in our view and opinions - to one extreme or another. As stated, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle in this discussion.
I believe there are various types of persecution, different levels on a continuum - and that any true believer who stands for the truth will experience it. No, doors aren't being locked on churches, or people beheaded in the US. But on what do you base the belief that couldn't eventually happen? It's happening in many places in the world right now. Do you believe things are going to just keep getting better from here? If so, is that based on a full preterist POV, some particular experiences/influences, or something else? I personally have some partial preterist leanings, but I certainly don't think things are going to get better - in fact, will continue to get worse, as in "falling away" - until God steps in and miraculously brings us into the next age. (There are about 9,011.5 different interpretations on that continuum as well.) I don't think that means either a) there is persecution under every stone, or b) there's NO persecution occurring at all because it doesn't fit my very narrow definition of the absolute worst 1% of possibilities.
Also, if you don't believe satan's agenda is to destroy the things of God, what do you base that on? (some definitions and descriptions of satan - liar, thief, destroyer, confuser...)
Edit, in retrospect - I see several different things. You appear to be talking about a wide-spread societal/national persecution. I'm probably more so talking about personal, perhaps even spiritual persecution. However, I also do see a continued deterioration within the fabric of our society, including a more hostile view toward those who name the name of Jesus - that portends the possibility of the eventual development of a more wide-spread, more intense persecution. But whether or no, depends on God's plans. So as to not live in fear, paranoia, or joust at windmills, I believe it's time to trust God and pray more, keep our eyes on Him, seek first the Kingdom and hold fast to the hope that He will make all things new. I find it hard to see anything wrong with that.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on October 22, 2010, 08:09:00 AM
I believe I may have a broader definition (as I noted earlier, including with multiple scripture) and/or you're talking about something I'm not exactly talking about. Again, I don't personally think an extreme view in either direction is accurate. I believe we're constantly affected and influenced by experiences and influences that color our view; sometimes, we can over-react and be affected to the point of being biased and distorted in our view and opinions - to one extreme or another. As stated, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle in this discussion.
Agreed - but should it not be incumbent upon the most dominant spiritual belief system in the history of mankind (which claims to have the flawless truth written down in black and white) to take the high road and defend the downtrodden of the world rather than complaining about being disliked in the U.S.? This is what puzzles me. What would Jesus do?
Again - I see (generally) Christians (here) reacting like any "worldly" people group - defending their own rights and fearful of losing them. Very sure of their own rightness and of the evil of all who speak against their group.
Quote from: jabcat on October 22, 2010, 08:09:00 AM
I believe there are various types of persecution, different levels on a continuum - and that any true believer who stands for the truth will experience it. No, doors aren't being locked on churches, or people beheaded in the US. But on what do you base the belief that couldn't eventually happen? It's happening in many places in the world right now.
It could happen - things happen. I did state this in one of my posts IIRC. Persecution has been around forever. It's primitive, tribal fear driven behavior. The Turkish Muslims severely persecuted Armenian Christians early last century http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html although our own government still will not officially acknowledge it (much less the Turkish government). The Christians are not immune to this disease (genocide) themselves as recently as the 1990s when "Christian" Serbs decimated Bosnian Muslims - men, women and children.
Could this type of persecution happen here in the U.S.? Of course. Look what "Christian" whites did to blacks. The big point is that it absolutely is not happening now to Christians in the U.S. Churches are flourishing and people attend them with absolutely no fear at all (unless maybe if they're doing the Fred Phelps type things). Yet - Phelps church is doing fine and even the liberal ACLU is backing their right to do what they do.
Quote from: jabcat on October 22, 2010, 08:09:00 AM
Do you believe things are going to just keep getting better from here? If so, is that based on a full preterist POV, some particular experiences/influences, or something else? I personally have some partial preterist leanings, but I certainly don't think things are going to get better - in fact, will continue to get worse, as in "falling away" - until God steps in and miraculously brings us into the next age.
Preterism has something to do with it I guess. Yet - the world is a great big swirling mass of mess - at least on the surface, no doubt about that. I absolutely do NOT believe that we are headed for some unavoidable doomsday scenario. I mean - people have been living in decaying dust in ignorance and suffering and death for thousands of years. Even the majority of "Christians" live in fear and superstition. How much more falling away do you want? There are many many many reasons to be hopeful. I have crazy faith about "God steps in and miraculously". :happygrin:
Quote from: jabcat on October 22, 2010, 08:09:00 AM
Also, if you don't believe satan's agenda is to destroy the things of God, what do you base that on? (some definitions and descriptions of satan - liar, thief, destroyer, confuser...)
I think things are going quite well for satan. The tribal "us verses them" self preservation mentality displayed by many proves that.
Quote from: jabcat on October 22, 2010, 08:09:00 AM
Edit, in retrospect - I see several different things. You appear to be talking about a wide-spread societal/national persecution. I'm probably more so talking about personal, perhaps even spiritual persecution. However, I also do see a continued deterioration within the fabric of our society, including a more hostile view toward those who name the name of Jesus - that portends the possibility of the eventual development of a more wide-spread, more intense persecution. But whether or no, depends on God's plans. So as to not live in fear, paranoia, or joust at windmills, I believe it's time to trust God and pray more, keep our eyes on Him, seek first the Kingdom and hold fast to the hope that He will make all things new. I find it hard to see anything wrong with that.
You have a healthy approach outlined there. I am not blind to the bad trends in society but I am not blind to the good ones either. Humans are all basically the same and when they are bound in spiritual ignorance - bad things happen.
OTOH - Much of the animosity toward the "church" has been brought on by the church's own bad behavior. THEN they cry "I'm being persecuted because of righteousness". :mblush: As stated before - from my POV the only legitimate "persecution for righteousness" is occurring when someone (any person, any group) is attacked for standing up to those who oppress the weak/poor and profit from the suffering of others.
Even after the acquittals, Dearborn's mayor, Jack O'Reilly, continued his ongoing and unprecedented personal attacks on the Christian evangelists, accusing them of being anti–Muslim bigots. O'Reilly's continuous anti-Christian rhetoric was clearly an attempt to curry favor with Dearborn's large Muslim population, which also explains the Police Department's alarming mobilization to arrest the four Christians.
So you think its acceptable for the mayor of the town to call these evangelists bigots, because they are handing out leaflets to muslims?
Not only does this incite an arrest but also arouse the hatred towards the christians and cause violence. Mayors are supposed to be intelligent but yet is apparently appealing to the crowd to curry favour with the muslim population, I can already see corruption displayed there, but again I don't know the whole story, maybe these minority christains hiding behind the label of Christian were behaving in a bad manner shouting abusive names etc , which might have got the mayors attention. But there is nothing about such things on the article provided here, only that they were handing out leaflets.
But on that note I think that its not the best move to go out fishing for disciples within a Muslim festival. There are plenty of other places one can go and witness to muslims, it's unlikely one is going to make a convert of a muslim in a festival they they deliberatly went to in order to celebrate their religion and in some ways is provoking them, but I'd hate to see outright bans being put in place all over the world on certain festivals, but maybe it's best for the peace, but who knows maybe that's too extreme and might in itself cause unrest, tensions and violence. :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on October 22, 2010, 07:15:25 AM
:cloud9: I don't understand why people think "religion" and politics shouldn't mix. :dontknow: I see this as a lie of the enemy that made Christians think they were staying out of the "world" by not "taking the land" their feet stood upon. Our God appointed kings and brought down kings; sound pretty political to me, LOL. Blessings....
Because "Politics" ruins everything it touches.
Isn't that rebellion though?. Politics has a purpose, the alternative is a monarchy. Without both there would be anarchy, so political corruption is no longer watched on tv, because someone nicked it!
Religion ruins everything it touches as well :0)
If 'religion and politics ruin everything,' what is causing the ruination and what is being ruined?
Sorry, I don't understand what is being said.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.
One Nation Under Allah? .
Thursday, 21 October 2010 02:32 William Kilpatrick - FrontPageMag.com .
President Eisenhower famously observed that "our form of government has no sense unless it is founded on a deeply felt religious faith, and I don't care what it is." Now that we are beginning to see the consequences when Muslims act on their deeply felt faith, it's time to revisit Eisenhower's statement. The question is, can we still afford to take an "I don't care what it is" attitude toward religion? In short, does the content of a religion matter?
Or are we to assume that all religions share the same essential truths, as Eisenhower seemed to assume?
It's ironic that the part of Eisenhower's statement which evoked criticism in the early 1950's would pass almost unnoticed today, while the part that seemed unremarkable then would be challenged in many quarters today. When Eisenhower said, "our form of government has no sense unless it is founded on a deeply felt religious faith," he was merely echoing a widespread belief. Even William O. Douglas, the most liberal member of the Supreme Court at the time, and not a particularly religious man, opined in a 1952 decision that "We are a religious people, whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being." Since then, however, we've grown accustomed to the notion that religion ought to have little or no influence on our government and institutions. More and more, religion is looked upon as something that should be confined to the private sphere. As a result, religion has been pushed steadily out of public life—one Christmas crèche, one school prayer, one court decision at a time. These days, most of our institutions, particularly the press, the courts, and the schools, seem to presume that secularism is the officially established belief.
Conversely, the part of Eisenhower's statement that caused many to snicker in the 1950's would strike most today as self-evidently true. Numerous priests, pastors, rabbis, and theologians took Eisenhower to task for adding, "and I don't care what it is" to his endorsement of religion. Long before the threat of Islamization, thoughtful Americans realized that the content of a religion mattered very much. They protested that a vague "faith in faith" would not be enough to sustain our form of society in difficult times.
By contrast, after several decades of multicultural indoctrination we have now reached a pass where "I don't care what it is" seems the height of enlightened wisdom. Our present society is so thoroughly invested in the doctrine of cultural equivalence that hardly anyone dares to publicly express a preference or partiality for one religion over another—except, of course, if the religion happens to be Islam. In that case the neutrality rule seems dispensable. For example, New York's city fathers granted almost immediate approval to the Ground Zero mosque project, but after nine years, the plan to rebuild St. Nicholas Orthodox Church, which was destroyed by the 9/11 blast, has met with nothing but opposition. But, apart from the occasional favoritism shown to Islam, the notion that all religions are equally OK suits us just fine.
Still, the introduction of Islam into the American equation forces us to look more closely than we ever have before at the church/state question. Is the state supposed to ignore religion, or should it encourage it? Are some religions more conducive than others to a healthy social order? Eisenhower's famous statement provides a good starting point for framing some answers. "Ike" was right in saying our form of government doesn't make sense without a religious foundation. The Declaration of Independence, for instance, has religion written all over it. No matter how you parse it, it's difficult to read "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God," "endowed by their Creator," "appealing to the Divine Judge of the World," and "a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence" as an endorsement of secularism. And the benefits of a religious foundation don't end with the establishment of inalienable rights for individual citizens. Religion provides a service to the state, as well; a service that the state can't perform for itself—at least, not very successfully. What is it? In brief, the sacred realm makes sense out of life. Religious faith imparts a conviction of ultimate meaning. And this, in turn, is good for the state because people with meaningful lives tend to be better behaved citizens.
Ah, yes!" exclaims the half-educated leftist, "Religion—the opium of the people!" Not quite. Marx, who had a shallow understanding of religion, thought of religion as an escapist fantasy—an opium dream devised to keep people in a state of passivity. With their eyes focused on the next world, said Marx, believers wouldn't work to change this one. But actual religious people aren't like that. The more actively people practice their faith, the more likely they will be involved in trying to improve their community. That's not just a theory, it's been shown by a number of studies. Just as importantly, religious people feel a duty to improve themselves. Christians, for example, are supposed to try to conform their lives to Christ. The upshot is that people who take their religion seriously have strong incentives to practice virtue and avoid vice. All told, people who learn to govern themselves out of religious motives are better candidates for self-government than people who don't practice self-restraint. This is what John Adams meant when he said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
Thus, a society that hopes to maintain a free and self-governing citizenry will want to do everything it can to encourage and foster religion. Just because the government shouldn't be in the business of establishing a specific religion, doesn't mean it should be neutral as between religion and irreligion. If, as Adams wrote, our Constitution would only work with a moral and religious people, then it makes sense for the state to do what it can to provide a favorable climate for religion—as it does, for example, by providing tax exempt status to churches. Joe Sobran once made the point that although the First Amendment right to a free press implies a right not to read, along with the right to read, no one ever suggests that the state should remain neutral as between reading and non-reading. Reading, like religion, has its dangers but, on the whole, literacy is good for the health of a society. Thus, for example, lessons in reading and writing are not optional for the elementary school set.
As President Eisenhower correctly noted, our form of government doesn't make much sense apart from "deeply felt religious faith." But exactly what religion are we talking about? Will any "deeply felt faith" do? Or were Eisenhower, Douglas, and the rest implicitly assuming a Judeo-Christian framework?
It's the second part of Eisenhower's statement that is problematic—the "and I don't care what it is" part. The question is, are religions interchangeable? Will any religion provide a proper foundation for our form of government? Does every religion confer equal benefits to society and to individuals? Suppose Eisenhower had said "Our form of government has no sense unless it is founded on a deeply held religious faith such as Islam?" It would sound strange, to say the least. And it's a good bet that Islam was pretty far from Eisenhower's thoughts on the occasion of his speech. The man who named the war against the Nazis "the Crusade in Europe" was obviously thinking of another religion when he made his famous statement.
How about Justice William O. Douglas? When he said, "We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being," which Supreme Being did he have in mind? Considering that he was speaking about the American people and their institutions, it's highly unlikely that he was thinking of Allah.
According to the Declaration of Independence, all men are created equal, but are all Supreme Beings equal? The Declaration states that men are "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights," but which Creator is the Declaration referring to? It would make no sense to claim that Allah would qualify for the position, because in Islam all men are not created equal. Muslims, who are described in the Koran as "the best of people," are considered to be decidedly superior to non-Muslims. For example, under Shariah law a Muslim who kills another Muslim may have to pay with his life, but a Muslim who kills a non-Muslim need only pay "blood money" to the murdered man's relatives. Islamic charity isn't dispensed equally, either. It's only meant for other Muslims. During the recent flooding in Pakistan, police and local clerics refused aid and shelter to Christians and Hindus, despite the fact that the majority of relief money and supplies came from non-Muslim countries. "With charity toward all" is an alien concept in much of the Muslim world.
The Supreme Being as depicted in the Koran is an entirely different sort of being from the one depicted in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Although a lot of Christians like to say that "We all worship the same God," the Koran explicitly rejects Christianity and the Christian notion of God. It does this on several occasions and in no uncertain terms. The Jesus of the Koran, for example, seems to have been introduced into it for the sole purpose of denying the claims of Jesus of Nazareth.
In any event, Muslims are not called to the imitation of the Muslim Jesus, but to the imitation of Muhammad. In Islamic tradition he is considered the perfect man, the supreme model of conduct. Just as Christians are supposed to conform their lives to Christ, Muslims are expected to conform their lives to Muhammad. Unfortunately, for those who think that religions are interchangeable, the imitation of Muhammad leads in a very different direction than the imitation of Christ. The imitation of Muhammad leads to unequal treatment of believers and non-believers, to child brides, polygamy, wife beating, stoning for adulterers, the murder of apostates, and various other, shall we say, un-American activities.
Granted, not every American feels called upon to follow Christ, but even lax Christians and non-Christian Americans are the heirs of a culture that was shaped by Christian beliefs. Not everyone practices Christian virtues or recognizes that our moral standards are derived from Jewish and Christian sources, but most Americans recognize that our society benefits when those standards are observed. On the other hand, the taken-for-granted nature of Judeo-Christian standards makes it easy to suppose that what is, in fact, a unique cultural and religious achievement is simply the normal condition of mankind. That's why for many Americans it's extremely difficult to imagine what life would be like under an Islamic moral code.
For a long time we've had the luxury of not having to think very deeply about the relationship between our form of government and our religious tradition. Now that mosques are popping up all over, it's time to ask whether our institutions presuppose merely a generic religion or whether they are linked to a specific religious tradition. When John Adams said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people," what religion and what morality did he have in mind? Do we really have the luxury of saying "I don't care what it is?"
A few months ago, Steve Chapman, a columnist for the Chicago Tribune, wrote a piece criticizing opponents of the Ground Zero mosque. In it, Chapman maintained that even if Islam were "inherently violent and totalitarian" it would still deserve the full protection of the First Amendment. Can that really be true? "I may disagree with your head-chopping policy, but I will defend to the death your right to exercise it?" Even Voltaire would have balked at that.
The profound ignorance and dysfunctionality of Islamic societies suggests that all religions are not equal in their capacity to benefit society. Just as it's not wise for a society to maintain a strict neutrality between religion and irreligion, it's equally unwise to pretend that the content of a religious tradition is a matter of complete indifference. They've tried that experiment in Europe and the results have been disastrous. Several years ago the framers of the European Constitution refused to acknowledge the Christian contribution to European civilization. Of course, that was just the confirmation of the post-Christian direction European elites had chosen decades before. And how is the new Christian-free Europe faring? Well, let's see: you can't teach the Holocaust or the Crusades in British schools, forced marriages are the norm in the Midlands, there are "no-go" zones in every French city, female genital mutilation is widely practiced, people who offend Islam go on trial, Jews are fleeing Sweden, and native Dutch and Britons are leaving their respective countries in droves. In short, the dysfunctional culture of the Middle East has set up branch offices in England and on the Continent. Thanks to the multicultural insistence on the moral equivalence of all cultures and religions, post-Christian Europe is rapidly becoming post-free Europe.
Can't happen here? It can and it will unless we rid ourselves of the notion that religions are interchangeable. Nothing facilitates jihad like naivete. And one of our biggest blind spots is the failure to recognize that different religious beliefs can and do result in radically different cultures.
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William Kilpatrick's articles have appeared in FrontPage Magazine, First Things, Catholic World Report, National Catholic Register, Jihad Watch, World, and Investor's Business Daily.
This is interesting; thought-provoking.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/22/civil-rights-complaint-filed-christian-roommate-advertisement/?test=latestnews
That law is unconstitutional. It goes against the amendment for freedom of, and expression of religion, as well as free speech...not to mention common sense freedom of who you get to live with, and having a peaceful home.
If it were to say for instance, "Muslim roommate wanted"...wouldn't you just shrug, say "OK, that's fine", and go on about your business?
Seems to me something is "creeping in"...as has been said before :winkgrin:, "know who your enemy is".
"For we battle not against flesh and blood..." Apostle Paul.
"Sound the cry, there's a battle going on
Though there are many unaware, the conflict still is strong
It's not neighbor against neighbor, or against a country overseas
The fight is light against darkness, and it's fought best on our knees". jabcat :bigGrin:
You wax poetic dear friend, and you speak wisdom in your stanzas.
hmmmn...That is indeed a blatant case of persecution of the subtle sort I was talking about. We are not yet burned at stakes, and our fundamentalist brethren aren't being locked out of their temples...But there is a spirit at work, and he is malice...
Thankfully, God is moving. Did anyone see the NBC nightly news broadcast on house churches becoming more and more common? If it is on NBC nightly news...it is obvious news. I am thankful that God is moving indeed, it is a sign that the revival many of us (or atleast I have) been smelling on the air, is soon to make its appearance.
Darkness in culture, economy, and government...It was when Israel was at its evilest that revival came, or judgement overthrew them...May the Josiahs amongst us read the word, and with the Spirit, tear down the idols and Asherah poles in the hearts of the people.
Thank you, and amen, amen! Darkness comes before dawn, and joy comes in the morning!
House churches, I am indeed interested in. Back to a personal, simple, fellowship, with "the power thereof".
:cloud9: That's definitely the move of the Spirit, and has been for at least the last 2 decades or so, IMO. God is tired of business as usual in the churches, where He seldom is welcomed in. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: thinktank on October 22, 2010, 01:48:57 PM
So you think its acceptable for the mayor of the town to call these evangelists bigots, because they are handing out leaflets to muslims?
Not only does this incite an arrest but also arouse the hatred towards the christians and cause violence. Mayors are supposed to be intelligent but yet is apparently appealing to the crowd to curry favour with the muslim population, I can already see corruption displayed there, but again I don't know the whole story, maybe these minority christains hiding behind the label of Christian were behaving in a bad manner shouting abusive names etc , which might have got the mayors attention. But there is nothing about such things on the article provided here, only that they were handing out leaflets.
Apparently the Christians did nothing wrong. Free speech must be upheld and people who oppose it need to be put out of office. The Mayor can call them whatever he wants, but the arrest was wrong and the outcome the right one. I hope the lawsuit against the city is successful to teach them a lesson in the 1st amendment. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2010, 05:00:09 AM
This is interesting; thought-provoking.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/22/civil-rights-complaint-filed-christian-roommate-advertisement/?test=latestnews
Seems crazy, no? I understand why the laws exist though. Many rental contracts used to read "no negros" or "whites only" before the civil rights act was passed in '64. When it comes to private property though it seems like you should be able to rent to whoever you want to and exclude whoever you want to for whatever reason you want to. But if that were the case we would still have restaurants and stores (privately owned of course) with signs that said "no blacks" - so, what to do?
Is forcing a private business owner to serve Muslims or blacks an infringement to personal freedom? Should private renters be allowed to restrict who they rent to based on religion or race?
Quote from: Cardinal on October 23, 2010, 06:31:35 AM
:cloud9: That's definitely the move of the Spirit, and has been for at least the last 2 decades or so, IMO. God is tired of business as usual in the churches, where He seldom is welcomed in. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2010, 06:29:55 AM
Thank you, and amen, amen! Darkness comes before dawn, and joy comes in the morning!
House churches, I am indeed interested in. Back to a personal, simple, fellowship, with "the power thereof".
Whenever two or more are gathered together in my name, THERE AM I IN THE MIDST OF YOU- I call that the tabernacle effect ;o)
or to put it another way..... sounds like church to me
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling(tabernacle) of God in the Spirit.
(Eph 2:19-22)
Quote from: Molly on October 22, 2010, 04:54:27 PM
One Nation Under Allah? .-
Can't happen here? It can and it will unless we rid ourselves of the notion that religions are interchangeable. Nothing facilitates jihad like naivete. And one of our biggest blind spots is the failure to recognize that different religious beliefs can and do result in radically different cultures.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
William Kilpatrick's articles have appeared in FrontPage Magazine, First Things, Catholic World Report, National Catholic Register, Jihad Watch, World, and Investor's Business Daily.
Were the founders dumb and clueless to allow any and all religious beliefs to flourish freely? As long as no civil laws are broken - then that's exactly the case in America. You can worship mother goose and even claim that mother goose wants you to kill all the Micky Mouse worshipers. As long as you abide by the laws of the land you are free to believe whatever you want.
I personally believe there is a danger if some Islamic principles were to be incorporated into the constitution. How would that happen? Only if those in favor of Sharia law were to become a majority in both houses and make amendments to the constitution which would allow the government to enforce Islamic laws which are now unconstitutional principles.
May I ask - Molly - what is your plan for forcing people not to be Muslims in the U.S. and for stopping them from building Mosques etc. ? Please give practical pragmatic ways to accomplish this.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 23, 2010, 06:52:07 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 23, 2010, 06:31:35 AM
:cloud9: That's definitely the move of the Spirit, and has been for at least the last 2 decades or so, IMO. God is tired of business as usual in the churches, where He seldom is welcomed in. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2010, 06:29:55 AM
Thank you, and amen, amen! Darkness comes before dawn, and joy comes in the morning!
House churches, I am indeed interested in. Back to a personal, simple, fellowship, with "the power thereof".
Whenever two or more are gathered together in my name, THERE AM I IN THE MIDST OF YOU- I call that the tabernacle effect ;o)
or to put it another way..... sounds like church to me
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling(tabernacle) of God in the Spirit.
(Eph 2:19-22)
I had a thought one day, after seeing some of the posts saying "no stone left on another".
It brought to mind, no one being above the other in the kingdom of God, servant is king, least is greatest, all are equal heirs in Christ who are saved by the saviour of All men our Lord Jesus. I am sure that no living stone standing on another was the message behind whoever posted it, but that's what I got anyway. ^^
But then this thought came to me...
Stones all together forming a foundation, or a tiled floor, a bit like the expanse of sapphire under God's throne, and The Holy Spirit is the tent, the protecting fabric, and the shelter that covers the foundation of living stones, stretched out over it like a tabernacle.
Does anyone have any word, or scripture perhaps that might support, or even refute this? How does this resonate with everyone? :)
I always read that as Jesus saying not one stone of the tabernacle of man (the natural temple, traditions of men, mans works)would be left standing on another. (we seek a city , made without hands, with foundations in the heavens whose builder and maker is God)
This statement:
Stones all together forming a foundation, or a tiled floor, a bit like the expanse of sapphire under God's throne, and The Holy Spirit is the tent, the protecting fabric, and the shelter that covers the foundation of living stones, stretched out over it like a tabernacle.
To me is beautiful and true
1Pe 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
A dear friend of mine had a vision many years ago. Jesus was sitting beside a loose pile of translucent stones. He was sorting them, setting the clear ones in a tiled floor and setting the cloudy ones aside. He looked at my friend and said, "God love a cheerful giver". This was not about money IMO, it was about the "glorious liberty of the sons of God".... "Behold, it is written in the volume of the book of me, 'I come to do Thy will O God'"....."Zeal for thine house consumes me"..... "Here I am, I and the children thou hast given Me."
Feast of booths........ Lil tents - Wouldn't it be cool...joint heirs, all just humbly campin out in the wilderness, remembering where they came from ;o)
Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 07:13:03 PM
Preaching from portions of the Bible is a hate crime in Canada, is it not? Haven't you put preachers in jail? This is a worldwide problem having to do with a challenge to the sovereignty of nations, and, in this country, of people. The only religion that is becoming outlawed is Christianity.
Once again - why must this Canadian incident be exaggerated and misrepresented as the beginning of the end? I've seen this (Canada's anti-hate speech law) referred to literally hundreds of times as proof that the end is near (and coming soon to America).
For your info : Two people (preachers) were arrested for saying that gays should be put to death. Both had the charges dropped and the Canadian human rights tribunal has repealed the hate-speech law citing that it is too restrictive of the free speech guaranteed to Canadian citizens.
So where is the end of the world affront to Christianity in North America? Answer: it doesn't exist.
For YEARS I received this email from alarmed Christian friends: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/fcc.asp
People were FRANTIC - and sure this was the end. Unbelievable gullibility.
If Christianity is on the decline at all, try blaming pedophile priests and filthy rich fear mongering televangelists - not the devil or Islam.
Is this article a lie? Have these commissions been disbanded?
Catholicism – A Hate Crime in Canada?
June 4th, 2008 by Pete Vere, JCL Print This Article · ShareThis
"If one, because of one's sincerely held moral beliefs, whether it be Jew, Muslim, Christian, Catholic, opposes the idea of same-sex marriage in Canada, is that considered 'hate'?"
The question was not rhetorical. Nor was it theoretical. Fr. Alphonse de Valk, a Basilian priest and pro-life activist known throughout Canada for his orthodoxy, is currently being investigated by the Canadian Human Rights Commission (CHRC) — a quasi-judicial investigative body with the power of the Canadian government behind it. The CHRC is using section 13 of Canada's Human Rights Act to investigate the priest. This is a section under which no defendant has ever won once the allegation has gone to tribunal — the next stage of the process.
Most defendants end up paying thousands of dollars in fines and compensation. This is in addition to various court costs. Moreover, defendants are responsible for their own legal defense. In contrast, the commission provides free legal assistance to the complainant.
What was Father de Valk's alleged 'hate act'?
Father defended the Church's teaching on marriage during Canada's same-sex 'marriage' debate, quoting extensively from the Bible, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and Pope John Paul II's encyclicals. Each of these documents contains official Catholic teaching. And like millions of other people throughout the world and the ages – many of who are non-Catholics and non-Christians — Father believes that marriage is an exclusive union between a man and a woman.
The response from Mark van Dusen, a media consultant and spokesperson for CHRC, shocked me. I have interviewed van Dusen in the past and he has always struck me as an honest person willing to field tough questions on behalf of the commission. If he feels an accusation against the commission is hogwash, he states so plainly. If he feels the CHRC and its personnel are being unfairly tainted, he states so boldly.
Yet van Dusen did not dismiss the question out-of-hand as I thought he would. "We investigate complaints, Mr. Vere," he said, "we don't set public policy or moral standards. We investigate complaints based on the circumstances and the details outlined in the complaint. And ...if...upon investigation, deem that there is sufficient evidence, then we may forward the complaint to the tribunal, but the hate is defined in the Human Rights Act under section 13-1."
In other words, individual Jews, Muslims, Catholics and other Christians who, for reasons of conscience, hold to their faith's traditional teaching concerning marriage, could very well be guilty of promoting hate in Canada. The same is true of any faith community in Canada that does not embrace this modern redefinition of one of the world's oldest institutions — a redefinition that even the highly-secularist France rejects.
"Our job is to look at it, compare it to the act, to accumulated case law, tribunal and court decisions that have reflected on hate and decide whether to advance the complaint, dismiss it or whether there is room for a settlement between parties," van Dusen continued. The truth of the CHRC considering adherence to Catholicism or Islam a possible hate crime was made real by van Dusen's implicit admission that the commission could dismiss the complaint against Fr. De Valk. Over six months have passed since the commission first notified Father of the complaint. There has been no hint of the commission dropping the complaint.
Father de Valk publishes Catholic Insight, a Canadian magazine that "bases itself on the Church's teaching and applies it to various circumstances in our time." He is being accused by a homosexual activist of promoting "extreme hatred and contempt" against homosexuals.
Yet following the example of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XV, Father has stated on several occasions that we must love homosexuals and treat them with the dignity due every human person. "The basic view of the Church is that homosexual acts are a sin, but we love the sinner," Father told me during an interview. "Opposing same-sex marriage is not the same as rejecting homosexuals as persons." This is the deeply-held belief of orthodox Christians that is now considered a possible hate act warranting state intervention. This is what happens when government agencies broadly define homophobia as opposition to any homosexual act.
Yet the complaint against Father de Valk is just one of several in recent years that has been pursued against Christians by Canada's human rights commissions. In 2005, the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal fined a Knights of Columbus council over $1,000 dollars for declining to rent their hall to a couple for a lesbian marriage ceremony.
Five years previous, the Ontario Human Rights Commission fined Protestant printer Scott Brockie $5,000 for declining to print homosexual-themed stationary. The Saskatchewan Human Rights Tribunal fined Hugh Owens thousands of dollars for quoting a couple of Bible verses in a letter to the local newspaper. And Mayor Diane Haskett in London, Ontario, was fined $10,000 plus interest for declining to proclaim a gay pride day.
Nor have Canada's bishops been spared. Bishop Fred Henry, one of Canada's most outspoken defenders of the sanctity of life and marriage, was brought before a human rights commission for upholding Catholic moral teaching. While the complaint was ultimately withdrawn — not by the commission, but by the individual who originally filed the complaint — Bishop Henry incurred thousands of dollars of legal costs.
Thus Bishop Henry sympathizes with Father de Valk, who the bishop praises as a model of Catholic orthodoxy and fidelity to Christian teaching. "The social climate right now is that we're into a new form of censorship and thought control, and the commissions are being used as thought police," His Excellency states.
Additionally, a message posted to a popular Catholic internet forum has reportedly made its way before the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal. The alleged poster, who is an American writing from America, was commenting on an article written by Mark Steyn — a Canadian author who now lives in New Hampshire. The tribunal accepted this posting as evidence that Steyn promoted "hatred". While the website is never mentioned by name in news reports – referred to only as "a Catholic website" — a source at the tribunal told me, off-the-record, that the website was Catholic Answers.
While the claim is unconfirmed as of this writing, the controversial Mark Steyn article, over which the British Columbia hearing is being held, was posted to the Catholic Answers message forum. Moreoever, popular Jewish-Canadian blogger Ezra Levant, who is blogging live from the hearing, and who is the subject of his own human rights commission complaint, published a description of the unnamed Catholic forum. Several details match, including the screen names of two participants to the Catholic Answers forum discussion of Steyn's article.
Imagine that! Canada's human rights tribunals are now attempting to prosecute a case against an American resident, based upon what an American citizen allegedly posted to a mainstream American Catholic website. What passes for mainstream Catholic discussion in America is now the basis for a hate complaint in Canada.
Moreover, Christians in America are not immune from what is happening to their co-religionists across the border. This past April, the New Mexico Human Rights Commission ordered Elaine Huguenin, a self-employed Christian photographer, to pay a lesbian couple $6,600 for having declined to photograph their same-sex commitment ceremony. This fine and stress from the legal proceedings come at a time when Huguenin and her husband are expecting their first child.
The New Mexico commission ignored the fact that photography is a form of artistic expression. The state commission ignored the fact that the First Amendment protects individuals from compelled speech — that is, coercion from the state to give artistic expression that violates one's most deeply held beliefs. The commission's one-page ruling simply stated that Huguenin had "discriminated against [the lesbian complainant] because of sexual orientation." As this New Mexico Human Rights Commission ruling shows, Americans are in grave danger of having their religious liberty ripped away from them by Canadian-style human rights commissions.
Pete Vere, JCL, is a canon lawyer and Catholic journalist. He writes from Sault Ste. Marie, a twin city in Northern Ontario and Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He is the co-author of Surprised by Canon Law, volumes one and two.
http://catholicexchange.com/2008/06/04/112780/
Ahh! But now John, no longer small stick-built huts, more like, perhaps, Chariots of Fire!
Quote from: Lefein on October 23, 2010, 06:59:35 AM
I had a thought one day, after seeing some of the posts saying "no stone left on another".
It brought to mind, no one being above the other in the kingdom of God, servant is king, least is greatest, all are equal heirs in Christ who are saved by the saviour of All men our Lord Jesus. I am sure that no living stone standing on another was the message behind whoever posted it, but that's what I got anyway. ^^
But then this thought came to me...
Stones all together forming a foundation, or a tiled floor, a bit like the expanse of sapphire under God's throne, and The Holy Spirit is the tent, the protecting fabric, and the shelter that covers the foundation of living stones, stretched out over it like a tabernacle.
Does anyone have any word, or scripture perhaps that might support, or even refute this? How does this resonate with everyone? :)
:cloud9: I'm the one that posted that revelation I got that day, as I read that scripture someone posted about no stone left standing upon another, meaning no men standing on one another in usurped authority, as in the sin of the Nicolaitians (sp).
I don't have a scripture, but I'd say that thought was God, because I had a dream/vision the night after I led a Catholic Italian war bride to the Lord in prayer, when I was doing home health and staying with her at night. I saw the most beautiful sapphire tiled floor under her (foundation). They were about an inch square, all the same color of deep blue, obviously beginning to be laid under her, as it looked like a Scrabble board when you're done playing, with some pieces missing. It was exquisite. Then I jolted awake, LOL. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 23, 2010, 05:54:12 PM
Quote from: Lefein on October 23, 2010, 06:59:35 AM
I had a thought one day, after seeing some of the posts saying "no stone left on another".
It brought to mind, no one being above the other in the kingdom of God, servant is king, least is greatest, all are equal heirs in Christ who are saved by the saviour of All men our Lord Jesus. I am sure that no living stone standing on another was the message behind whoever posted it, but that's what I got anyway. ^^
But then this thought came to me...
Stones all together forming a foundation, or a tiled floor, a bit like the expanse of sapphire under God's throne, and The Holy Spirit is the tent, the protecting fabric, and the shelter that covers the foundation of living stones, stretched out over it like a tabernacle.
Does anyone have any word, or scripture perhaps that might support, or even refute this? How does this resonate with everyone? :)
:cloud9: I'm the one that posted that revelation I got that day, as I read that scripture someone posted about no stone left standing upon another, meaning no men standing on one another in usurped authority, as in the sin of the Nicolaitians (sp).
I don't have a scripture, but I'd say that thought was God, because I had a dream/vision the night after I led a Catholic Italian war bride to the Lord in prayer, when I was doing home health and staying with her at night. I saw the most beautiful sapphire tiled floor under her (foundation). They were about an inch square, all the same color of deep blue, obviously beginning to be laid under her, as it looked like a Scrabble board when you're done playing, with some pieces missing. It was exquisite. Then I jolted awake, LOL. Blessings.....
Regarding the tile floor under you---we are actually standing on something, the faith of Christ. I'm sure if you could see it with your eyes, it would be quite as beautiful as Cardinal describes.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."substance"G5287
ὑπόστασις
hupostasis
hoop-os'-tas-is
From
a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): - confidence, confident, person, substance.
...and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.--Gal 2:20
1 Corinthians 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Quote from: Molly on October 23, 2010, 03:31:27 PM
Is this article a lie? Have these commissions been disbanded?
The info I gave you was from this year. Some on the tribunal got happy with the hate speech rule just like the Dearborn mayor got happy with the Christian arrests. In both situations free speech (which is a fine line BTW) is being tested and has prevailed from what I understand. I studied about how the 2 pastor/preacher cases turned out but did not research how some of the older cases you mentioned turned out, so some injustices may have prevailed in those cases. :dontknow: not sure.
Like i said - Fred Phelps proved we are okay in the U.S. at this time. Yet - we must ALWAYS be vigilant to fight against those who would oppose free speech. But if we cry wolf and misrepresent/exaggerate facts then some credibility is lost, no?
If you find any of my info is in error PLEASE let me know as I will be the first to protest and rally for free speech. Seriously.
Also - I didn't see where you responded to my question below:
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 23, 2010, 06:57:47 AM
May I ask - Molly - what is your plan for forcing people not to be Muslims in the U.S. and for stopping them from building Mosques etc. ? Please give practical pragmatic ways to accomplish this.
If I missed it - please point me in the right direction.
Quote
Regarding the tile floor under you---we are actually standing on something, the faith of Christ. I'm sure if you could see it with your eyes, it would be quite as beautiful as Cardinal describes.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
"substance"
G5287
ὑπόστασις
hupostasis
hoop-os'-tas-is
From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): - confidence, confident, person, substance.
...and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
--Gal 2:20
1 Corinthians 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 24, 2010, 06:28:20 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 23, 2010, 03:31:27 PM
Is this article a lie? Have these commissions been disbanded?
The info I gave you was from this year. Some on the tribunal got happy with the hate speech rule just like the Dearborn mayor got happy with the Christian arrests. In both situations free speech (which is a fine line BTW) is being tested and has prevailed from what I understand. I studied about how the 2 pastor/preacher cases turned out but did not research how some of the older cases you mentioned turned out, so some injustices may have prevailed in those cases. :dontknow: not sure.
Like i said - Fred Phelps proved we are okay in the U.S. at this time. Yet - we must ALWAYS be vigilant to fight against those who would oppose free speech. But if we cry wolf and misrepresent/exaggerate facts then some credibility is lost, no?
If you find any of my info is in error PLEASE let me know as I will be the first to protest and rally for free speech. Seriously.
Also - I didn't see where you responded to my question below:
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 23, 2010, 06:57:47 AM
May I ask - Molly - what is your plan for forcing people not to be Muslims in the U.S. and for stopping them from building Mosques etc. ? Please give practical pragmatic ways to accomplish this.
If I missed it - please point me in the right direction.
Molly, I really would like to know what you feel solution is. :dontknow:
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 24, 2010, 06:28:20 AMThe info I gave you was from this year. Some on the tribunal got happy with the hate speech rule just like the Dearborn mayor got happy with the Christian arrests. In both situations free speech (which is a fine line BTW)
Free speech is not a fine line. It's a very simple and clear line. Putting a single restriction on speech means it's no longer free.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 23, 2010, 06:57:47 AM
May I ask - Molly - what is your plan for forcing people not to be Muslims in the U.S. and for stopping them from building Mosques etc. ? Please give practical pragmatic ways to accomplish this.
That's simple. Outlaw free speech...
What is the solution? Lower the number of immigrants to pre-1965 levels or, preferably much lower, allow only Christians, and mostly Europeans. Close our borders. Bring troops back from the middle east to patrol our borders. Deport illegal immigrants.
As of 2006, the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than all other countries in the world combined.[1] Since the liberalization of immigration policy in 1965,[2] the number of first- generation immigrants living in the United States has quadrupled,[3] from 9.6 million in 1970 to about 38 millionin 2007.[4] 1,046,539 persons were naturalized as U.S. citizens in 2008. The leading emigrating countries to the United States were Mexico, India, and the Philippines.[5]
Family reunification accounts for approximately two-thirds of legal immigration to the US every year.[8]
American immigration history can be viewed in four epochs: the colonial period, the mid-nineteenth century, the turn of the twentieth, and post-1965. Each epoch brought distinct national groups, races, and ethnicities to the United States. During the seveneenth century, approximately 175,000 Englishmen migrated to Colonial America.[9] Over half of all European immigrants to Colonial America during the 17th and 18th centuries arrived as indentured servants.[10] The mid-nineteenth century saw mainly an influx from northern Europe; the early twentieth-century mainly from Southern and Eastern Europe; post-1965 mostly from Latin America and Asia.
The Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of 1965, also known as the Hart-Cellar Act, abolished the system of national-origin quotas. By equalizing immigration policies, the act resulted in new immigration from non-European nations, which changed the ethnic make-up of the United States.[25] While European immigrants accounted for nearly 60% of the total foreign population in 1970, they accounted for only 15% in 2000.[26] Immigration doubled between 1965 and 1970, and againbetween 1970 and 1990.[27] In 1990, President George H. W. Bush signed the Immigration Act of 1990,[28] which increased legal immigration to the United States by 40%.[29] Nearly eight million immigrants came to the United States from 2000 to 2005, more than in any other five-year period in the nation's history.[30] Almost half entered illegally.[31] Since 1986, Congress has passed seven amnesties for illegal immigrants.[32] Hispanic immigrants were among the first victims of the late-2000s recession.[33] 1.1 million immigrants were granted legal residence in 2009.[34]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States
IMMIGRATION BY THE NUMBERS--THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF CONGRESS REFUSES TO LOWER IMMIGRATION RATES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ
2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Our Constitution has accordingly fixed the limits to which, and no further, our confidence may go... In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:388
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 25, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 24, 2010, 06:28:20 AMThe info I gave you was from this year. Some on the tribunal got happy with the hate speech rule just like the Dearborn mayor got happy with the Christian arrests. In both situations free speech (which is a fine line BTW)
Free speech is not a fine line. It's a very simple and clear line. Putting a single restriction on speech means it's no longer free.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 23, 2010, 06:57:47 AM
May I ask - Molly - what is your plan for forcing people not to be Muslims in the U.S. and for stopping them from building Mosques etc. ? Please give practical pragmatic ways to accomplish this.
That's simple. Outlaw free speech...
There is fine line - threats, inciting riots/violence ect. are not covered by free speech laws. There is a fine line between preaching hate (including suggesting it's okay to harm/kill certain people or people groups) and actually threatening to harm/kill them or inciting others to actually harm/kill them.
That's the fine line and some court somewhere has to determine when than line is crossed.
Quote from: Molly on October 25, 2010, 03:43:21 PM
What is the solution? Lower the number of immigrants to pre-1965 levels or, preferably much lower, allow only Christians, and mostly Europeans. Close our borders. Bring troops back from the middle east to patrol our borders. Deport illegal immigrants.
Closing our physical borders will do little/nothing to curb Islam. Your illegal immigration points are spot on (as well as securing the borders - duh!).
The rest of your comments are simple religious/racial bigotry and (in my view) should be appalling to anyone who names the name of Christ.
There is not even the slightest hint in the entire N.T. of being concerned that your neighbors may have a different belief than Christianity (except to be ready to give them a reason for the hope Christians have - in hopes of winning them over) or that your neighbors may be a different race than you. Really sad that you feel the gospel is so weak it cannot prevail outside of your cultural racial bounds.
I think you sum up the far right racial/religious fundamentalist Christian movement and ideology very well. It might actually work with no constitution and with a totalitarian Christian state in place. Good luck with that. :mblush:
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 26, 2010, 12:08:18 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 25, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 24, 2010, 06:28:20 AMThe info I gave you was from this year. Some on the tribunal got happy with the hate speech rule just like the Dearborn mayor got happy with the Christian arrests. In both situations free speech (which is a fine line BTW)
Free speech is not a fine line. It's a very simple and clear line. Putting a single restriction on speech means it's no longer free.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 23, 2010, 06:57:47 AM
May I ask - Molly - what is your plan for forcing people not to be Muslims in the U.S. and for stopping them from building Mosques etc. ? Please give practical pragmatic ways to accomplish this.
That's simple. Outlaw free speech...
There is fine line - threats, inciting riots/violence ect. are not covered by free speech laws.
You speak of free speech. But there is
NO free speech.
If there was truely free speech everything would be allowed to be discussed. Including speeches that will cause mass riots with 100% certainty.
So free speech has NO fine line. It has no line at all.
LIMITED free speech has a line. But because it's limited it's no longer free....
Quote from: FirstbornClosing our physical borders will do little/nothing to curb Islam.
I'm not 'trying to curb Islam," I'm trying to curb immigration.
I'm curious, did you actually watch the video I provided, Immigration Gumballs?
Calling people names doesn't really work anymore.
But, not to worry--we will be a third world country sooner than you can say, 'racist.' So, the discussion is probably already moot.
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 02:02:58 AM
Quote from: FirstbornClosing our physical borders will do little/nothing to curb Islam.
I'm not 'trying to curb Islam," I'm trying to curb immigration.
I'm curious, did you actually watch the video I provided, Immigration Gumballs?
Calling people names doesn't really work anymore.
But, not to worry--we will be a third world country sooner than you can say, 'racist.' So, the discussion is probably already moot.
I thought you handled that well molly considering what he was atacking you with.
I think that it might be best to have some time in the presence of the Prince of Peace.
Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2010, 02:18:05 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 02:02:58 AM
Quote from: FirstbornClosing our physical borders will do little/nothing to curb Islam.
I'm not 'trying to curb Islam," I'm trying to curb immigration.
I'm curious, did you actually watch the video I provided, Immigration Gumballs?
Calling people names doesn't really work anymore.
But, not to worry--we will be a third world country sooner than you can say, 'racist.' So, the discussion is probably already moot.
I thought you handled that well molly considering what he was atacking you with.
I don't attack people - I attack
concepts. If we need to stop immigration because of overcrowding or whatever - then fine. BUT - if we are going to have an inquisition as to the potential immigrant's racial background and spiritual beliefs before they are allowed to immigrate, then that is anti-christic and bigotry.
What if instead we do the best research we can to determine if a potential immigrant is a peace loving person wanting to be a productive member of society?
Please feel free to attack my concepts. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: Lefein on October 26, 2010, 05:26:24 AM
I think that it might be best to have some time in the presence of the Prince of Peace.
No "might" about it. :winkgrin: :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 12:42:46 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 26, 2010, 12:08:18 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 25, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 24, 2010, 06:28:20 AMThe info I gave you was from this year. Some on the tribunal got happy with the hate speech rule just like the Dearborn mayor got happy with the Christian arrests. In both situations free speech (which is a fine line BTW)
Free speech is not a fine line. It's a very simple and clear line. Putting a single restriction on speech means it's no longer free.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 23, 2010, 06:57:47 AM
May I ask - Molly - what is your plan for forcing people not to be Muslims in the U.S. and for stopping them from building Mosques etc. ? Please give practical pragmatic ways to accomplish this.
That's simple. Outlaw free speech...
There is fine line - threats, inciting riots/violence ect. are not covered by free speech laws.
You speak of free speech. But there is NO free speech.
If there was truely free speech everything would be allowed to be discussed. Including speeches that will cause mass riots with 100% certainty.
So free speech has NO fine line. It has no line at all.
LIMITED free speech has a line. But because it's limited it's no longer free....
Don't be shy WW - tell us how you REALLY feel! :grin:
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 26, 2010, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 12:42:46 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 26, 2010, 12:08:18 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 25, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 24, 2010, 06:28:20 AMThe info I gave you was from this year. Some on the tribunal got happy with the hate speech rule just like the Dearborn mayor got happy with the Christian arrests. In both situations free speech (which is a fine line BTW)
Free speech is not a fine line. It's a very simple and clear line. Putting a single restriction on speech means it's no longer free.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 23, 2010, 06:57:47 AM
May I ask - Molly - what is your plan for forcing people not to be Muslims in the U.S. and for stopping them from building Mosques etc. ? Please give practical pragmatic ways to accomplish this.
That's simple. Outlaw free speech...
There is fine line - threats, inciting riots/violence ect. are not covered by free speech laws.
You speak of free speech. But there is NO free speech.
If there was truely free speech everything would be allowed to be discussed. Including speeches that will cause mass riots with 100% certainty.
So free speech has NO fine line. It has no line at all.
LIMITED free speech has a line. But because it's limited it's no longer free....
Don't be shy WW - tell us how you REALLY feel! :grin:
That's easy.
a] There is no free speech.
b] Your reply #300 is unrealistic.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 08:30:54 AMThat's easy.
a] There is no free speech.
Well alrighty then.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 08:30:54 AM
b] Your reply #300 is unrealistic.
Then please tell us your more realistic plan. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 02:02:58 AM
I'm not 'trying to curb Islam," I'm trying to curb immigration.
I'm curious, did you actually watch the video I provided, Immigration Gumballs?
No, I missed it. Please re-post - I'd LOVE to see it!
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 02:02:58 AM
Calling people names doesn't really work anymore.
Re-read my post. I called your "comments" according to their content and did not call anyone any names. :HeartThrob: I also described a "movement" and an "ideology" according to their content (which you represent quite well).
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 02:02:58 AM
But, not to worry--we will be a third world country sooner than you can say, 'racist.' So, the discussion is probably already moot.
Third world? And you're blaming that on non European immigration?
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 26, 2010, 10:20:24 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 08:30:54 AMThat's easy.
a] There is no free speech.
Well alrighty then.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 08:30:54 AM
b] Your reply #300 is unrealistic.
Then please tell us your more realistic plan. :Sparkletooth:
You keep speaking about plans. I never proposed a plan because the only plan that can work needs lots of laws to be rewritten.
But I'll keep it very simple.
The only way to preserve a Christian state is to remove everything that oposses it.
Other religions are like an infection. Or other cultures in general.
I don't understand you don't see that. It's so extremly simple.
If you put one Republican in the democratic party not much changes. But if, say, 50% of the Democatic party are actual Republicans and Independants is it still "the Democrats"?
Put a little leaven in the bread....
You can't mix red paint with green paint and expects it stays red.
America and Europe are being eaten from inside.
The choice is this.
If "you" want to keep things as they are stop the influx of changing elements.
If you don't care what the USA looks like in 50 years then by all means open the gates.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
Put a little leaven in the bread....
You can't mix red paint with green paint and expects it stays red.
America and Europe are being eaten from inside.
The choice is this.
If "you" want to keep things as they are stop the influx of changing elements.
If you don't care what the USA looks like in 50 years then by all means open the gates.
Molly; "I'm not 'trying to curb Islam," I'm trying to curb immigration."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/25/al-qaeda-video-asks-detroit-area-muslims-terrorize/
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
The only way to preserve a Christian state is to remove everything that oposses it.
What "Christian state" are you speaking of? How will you be removing "everything that opposes it". ?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
Other religions are like an infection. Or other cultures in general.
I don't understand you don't see that. It's so extremly simple.
Well, at least I can now see the extreme simplicity of your ideas.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
If "you" want to keep things as they are stop the influx of changing elements.
Problem WW. This is a multi-cultural country. The Spanish were already in Texas. The native Americans were not completely exterminated. The Jews, Irish, Italians ALL came with different cultures early on. Then hundreds of thousands of African slaves were brought here. Early on there were Chinese immigrants as well.
What's happening is - these minorities are growing and those who have been in charge are getting their first glimpse of what being a minority is like their own selves.
So - as to your "non-plan": What will you do about all the cultures which are already here?
Honestly, I'm a bit shocked by mindsets being expressed. There are some good movements you guys can join. From the sounds of it we need some doctrine enforcers (religion police) and a few ethnic cleansing squads to save the country. No joke - what are you guys saying?
"The only way to preserve a Christian state is to remove everything that oposses it." :mshock: :mshock: :mshock:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
You keep speaking about plans. I never proposed a plan because the only plan that can work needs lots of laws to be rewritten.
Lot of laws rewritten, eh? I'll say! More like - tear up the constitution and start over.
Quote from: jabcat on October 26, 2010, 11:47:15 AM
Molly; "I'm not 'trying to curb Islam," I'm trying to curb immigration."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/25/al-qaeda-video-asks-detroit-area-muslims-terrorize/
Allowing anyone and everyone to immigrate to the U.S. is not good policy. The open borders is a problem as well, huge problem. Terrorism is a continuing threat and must be dealt with seriously.
But the idea that "Only Christians and mostly Europeans" should be allowed into the country is impractical, unconstitutional and unenforecable (how does one "prove" their Christianity to an immigration board?).
What is being proposed here - (per WW): "removing everything which opposes (a Christian state)" and allowing (per Molly) "Only Christians and mostly Europeans" to come in and (per WW) "So when you read the word religion in the constitution or documents of that time it simply meant Christianity" ( and adding other religions have "no rights under the constitution").
Is THIS the answer to the dilemma? :
Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 03:48:47 AM
what are you guys thoughts on creating a christian states in the US. This way the non christian whoever they may be can live over at x point and the christians can live at x point on the USA map.
The christians states would be founded on the constitution, since its tried and tested.
So a bit like how Judah split from Israel.
I mean how long can Christains live side by side with non christians?
Shouldn't God lead his people into their own land if things get out of hand?
What's really being called for is a totalitarian Christian state. That is something America is not, has never been and will never be unless our current constitution is burned and a new one re-written.
I would suggest alternative answers are searched for. All three posters I quoted seem to pretty much concede that purging America from it's multiculturalism and from it's many religions is not even possible.
The only way to accomplish what is being sought (a Christian state) is to arrest all non-Christians and deport them immediately. Oh - and remove any practice of "foreign" culture since:
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
Multiculteralism is cultural genocide.
Maybe we can start with the Jewish culture. They don't believe in Jesus and (oh yeah) they
killed Jesus. :mblush:
Sound familiar?
BTW - my brother is a skinhead and he says the exact same things that the posters above are saying.
I personally think we need to be very strict with our immigration policies - not based necessarily on religion or culture, but on ideology and willingness to be a legal, law-abiding citizen of the United States. A problem there seems to be, being able to effectively sort through that, given many of the mixed messages within Islam, for example. I personally know people of Middle Eastern descent, including Muslims. Most of the ones I know are peaceful, law-abiding citizens. What I don't know is, what's "secretly" built into their religion and belief system, that under "what" circumstances might they be influenced "against the infidels". I'm not saying I know that, I'm saying I don't know, that concerns me. If forced to, I'd probably say the ones I know, with one notable exception, are probably mostly trust-worthy. But there is apparently a LOT of evidence that there are many expectations within the Muslim religion that could indeed be detrimental to America, given the "right amount" of the population becoming Muslim, as well as certain allowances made within societies that allows them to gain power, make demands, and begin to undermine the societies within which they proliferate (not assimilate, proliferate). It's more than I want to get into, I'd have to dig too much for exact numbers. But there is much evidence that based on what percentage of a society becomes Muslim, there are increasing demands and expectations regarding Sharia Law for instance, and the damage and chaos to a society that can be incurred. I've looked at those numbers, I can't recall them exactly off the top of my head. But I'll guess WW can testify to at least some of that, as The Netherlands have been a testing ground for some of the above. Bringing this full circle, I said we should not discriminate (as in totally disallow) against other cultures and religions. The caveat is, based on hard evidence, this should be controlled, limited, and monitored very closely - not just "come one, come all, do whatever you please - we'll bend over and bow to your wishes". So the laws and culture of America, IMO, should be staunchly maintained. My concern is, I believe there is evidence of danger(s), as witnessed by a couple of the articles I've personally posted in this thread. So yes, everyone should have their rights, liberty, respect - but within certain parameters, expectations, and controls including an insistence on the law of the land being followed, and immigration being tightly controlled - North, South, East and West.
Briefly, any vestige of Sharia Law should not be given ANY foothold in our society at large. It's not our law, it's based on a (perverted) religion, and is dangerous. I see a problem that a foothold is being given, ground is being surrendered, the alert is not high enough, people need to wake up and not fight against our values, but uphold them - carefully, lovingly, not indiscriminately - but very clearly and strongly just the same.
Honestly, I don't think we'll get this done, unless God steps in, wakes people up, and provides us with His guidance and mercy to do it. Humankind as a whole is too inept, divided, blinded, and sin-damaged to run a society as God would have it run. We can't even run our own lives without divine intervention, much less a whole society. History is littered with the evidence, including within the scriptures themselves.
So bottom line, honestly, I'm personally probably somewhere in the middle. I think there's more of a concern and more frightening issues involved that what I PERCEIVE as you presenting Byron, yet I also don't think we need to totally isolate, shut everyone else out, discriminate, etc. against others that are different. We're called to be salt and light - yet, as a nation, I believe we also need to use some discretion and set limits. But we can only do that if we look to God, follow His ways, and seek Him to heal us and heal our land.
Those are my thoughts, my opinions, if something's not clear, please don't assume or extrapolate. I typed this quickly, I may have mis-spoken somewhere, I may need to clarify or re-think something. Many of my beliefs, in many areas, are in flux and have been for some time. These are my thoughts right now.
James.
P.S. But you know what? I realize almost all the above I wrote is political. And when it's all said and done, I don't think politics are the answer. I believe whatever is happening around us, we need to be aware, inform others; but most of all, pray, seek God, His will, walk humbly before Him, ask and trust HIS will be done, love others, take up our cross and FOLLOW HIM. The protection is in the shelter of His wings, in the cleft of the Rock. I don't believe a Christian can't be involved in politics, but I do believe the spiritual perspective and aspects need to FAR outweigh anything else in our focus. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on October 26, 2010, 01:49:23 PMI said we should not discriminate (as in totally disallow) against other cultures and religions. The caveat is, based on hard evidence, this should be controlled, limited, and monitored very closely - not just "come one, come all, do whatever you please - we'll bend over and bow to your wishes". So the laws and culture of America, IMO, should be staunchly maintained.
Absolutely agree 100%. Really - if someone does not like what America is they can stay the hell out as far as I'm concerned.
I know I tend to see the positives but I believe multiculturalism is awesome, here to stay
and works fine - IF people understand tolerance for our differences and respect for the constitution. I have a very diverse group of friends and we all do fine together even when we disagree.
To me - THIS is the strength of America, not the abolishing of "other" cultures or "other" religions. Freedom IS the culture of America, freedom to be different without being persecuted for it.
What's really being called for is a totalitarian Christian state. That is something America is not, has never been and will never be unless our current constitution is burned and a new one re-written.
I would suggest alternative answers are searched for. All three posters I quoted seem to pretty much concede that purging America from it's multiculturalism and from it's many religions is not even possible.
The only way to accomplish what is being sought (a Christian state) is to arrest all non-Christians and deport them immediately. Oh - and remove any practice of "foreign" culture since:
That's not the type of thing I was suggsting at all, copying stalin. What I'm saying is whats wrong with a gathering of christians into one state? Whats the difference between this idea and christians who gather at the local church?
The only difference would be that the christians would all live close to each other instead of just worshipping together for one sunday. The Jewish people you mentioned who "killed" Jesus they had a state of believers for thousands of years by Gods command, do you call them bigots too? because they have their own country?
In any case it is way to early for Usa to take this type of idea on, but what Im saying is that in future, let's say there is a greater difference between the people of light and the people of dark, then the only peacefull places would be those where the lights are in a great proportion, so therefore deporting people would not be necessary, because the dark cannot hang around the light for too long, unless they also want to become the light. In this case race would not matter, only that they are a light to the community and that their religion doesn't bring any type of evil. So a muslim would be able to practice their religion but only if they do not belive in Jihad and other similar doctrines of death which do not benefit the community.
:2c:
QuoteI personally think we need to be very strict with our immigration policies - not based necessarily on religion or culture, but on ideology and willingness to be a legal, law-abiding citizen of the United States
Agree on reversing this disastrous immigration policy, but I just wanted to point out that ideology is based on religion and culture--that what we have had in the past in this country is an ideology based on Christianity and on cultures that were more similar than not. That has been slowly eroded over the past 100 years, and now the erosion is going exponential because the powers that be need to weaken america from the inside for the final push towards a new world order, a phrase that has been used by prominent people from g.h.w. bush to heinz kissinger.
People need to look at trends and intentions. It is not by accident that Europe is becoming over run and diluted by muslim populations. We didn't just trip and fall and get up to find 30 million illegal aliens moved into our home. This is being done by design. It's called overwhelming the system until it collapses by its own weight. Our jobs have been shipped overseas by the globalists for 20 years--no one listened to me on that one, either--and now what? They are not coming back without some sort of intervention or miracle. We are now facing no jobs, no money, and no Christian based culture happening all at the same time.
Where in the Bible do we see melting pot communities? We see groups being brought in as slaves. We see the Israelites being sent into captivity to another nation as punishment, but what country do we see surviving and thriving as a melting pot of different cultures, different religions, and different ideologies? God has separated the nations in Deuteronomy for a reason, and kept Israel for himself.
What is happening to us now is judgment because we have become too rich, too ignorant, and too lukewarm--he is spitting us out of his mouth. We are 14 trillion dollars in debt which is about equal to our GDP except that 70 percent of our GDP is based on consumerism and there are no more jobs and we are running out of credit. Yet, we think we can absorb huge alien populations and give them homes, schools, healthcare, services--our cities and states are going broke! Are people living in some kind of delusional dreamworld? Yes, I think they are. We have had it so good for so long we cannot imagine it being otherwise. Soon we will not have to imagine--it is already here for millions of americans. What happens when the unemployment checks run out? What happens when the banks close from the subprime mortgage fallout [houses for people who couldn't afford them] and other derivatives that have been allowed to be carried off the books and there is no way anymore to bail them out with the sweat of our unborn grandchildren? Oh, and the dollar, has anyone noticed what the dollar is doing? If you want to know, look at the price of gold.
This either has to stop or we need to prepare to see what a country that turns its back on the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob looks like from the inside.
1 Kings 19:10
And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
:cloud9: I agree Molly.
I also agree with the idea that when you get a number of Muslims together they immediately start asking for Sharia law, as Michigan is finding out, and as some European nations are finding out. It's not just that they're "different", it's that they have a "religion" that presupposes everyone else should be killed. The only reason they are quiet about that aspect of it in other places, is because they don't have the numbers yet to feel confident they can get away with it. It is written in the Koran that's it's ok to lie to an infidel to advance your own aims, and so they feel no qualms about espousing peace with a dagger behind their back.
We are to be gentle as a dove, but wise as a serpent. Allowing people with an agenda of their own to infiltrate and take over is not being wise. There was a commercial south of the border for a liquor that got pulled because enough Americans saw it. The gist of it was, that the Mexicans were in the process of reclaiming their lands by flooding us with illegals.
In one year the Mexican army crossed our borders 8 times, and you didn't see it on the national news, but the locals sure noticed it. Wonder why the national news didn't pick up the story? And wonder why the Mexican president was upset when we talked of actually stopping immigration with a fence, ect.? It should be obvious to anyone that we have been sold out by our leaders, who owe their "handlers" millions for getting them in office, whoever "they" are. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 26, 2010, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
The only way to preserve a Christian state is to remove everything that oposses it.
What "Christian state" are you speaking of? How will you be removing "everything that opposes it". ?
Did you even read what I wrote?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
Other religions are like an infection. Or other cultures in general.
I don't understand you don't see that. It's so extremly simple.
Well, at least I can now see the extreme simplicity of your ideas.
Firstly I would like to call them facts.
Extreme simple facts you don't seem to understand. Or didn't bother to read my post.
You keep mixing up facts with possible solutions and the will/possibility to carry out those solutions.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
If "you" want to keep things as they are stop the influx of changing elements.
Problem WW. This is a multi-cultural country. The Spanish were already in Texas. The native Americans were not completely exterminated. The Jews, Irish, Italians ALL came with different cultures early on. Then hundreds of thousands of African slaves were brought here. Early on there were Chinese immigrants as well.
Do you really don't see you just proved my point? What happend to the culture of the native Americans when the Europeans and later others poured in? The culture is gone.
QuoteWhat's happening is - these minorities are growing and those who have been in charge are getting their first glimpse of what being a minority is like their own selves.
So - as to your "non-plan": What will you do about all the cultures which are already here?
Honestly, I'm a bit shocked by mindsets being expressed. There are some good movements you guys can join. From the sounds of it we need some doctrine enforcers (religion police) and a few ethnic cleansing squads to save the country. No joke - what are you guys saying?
Were did I state all that? You should stop assume things of which you obviously have no clue.
I stated facts. I stated there are solutions. I stated they are against current laws. All facts.
The questions are:
- Should things continue as they are going right now?
- Should things be 'frozen' (close borders)?
- Or is it prefered the process accelerates (no more borders)?
- Should laws be rewritten to acomplish any of the above?
Quote"The only way to preserve a Christian state is to remove everything that oposses it." :mshock: :mshock: :mshock:
Why 3 "shocked" icons?
I simply stated facts. Those icons show only lack of arguments or understanding what I wrote.
As I wrote you can't keep red paint if you keep adding green paint.
The question for the USA is: Do we want red paint, brown pain or green paint. If the answer answer is red then the next questions is: Does the USA has the will/power to keep the paint red.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
You keep speaking about plans. I never proposed a plan because the only plan that can work needs lots of laws to be rewritten.
Lot of laws rewritten, eh? I'll say! More like - tear up the constitution and start over.
I'm no lawyer and don't live in the USA. But I really doubt if the constitution needs to be rewritten to change things. The Europeans rampaged the new continent took everything they could use. Slaughtered all that got in their path. While the blood on their hands was still wet they wrote the constitution. In a country with borders.... What would you think they would have done if say after a year millions of people with other religions entered the USA and started demanding all kind of changes? I think the answer is more blood.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 26, 2010, 01:19:45 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 26, 2010, 11:47:15 AM
Molly; "I'm not 'trying to curb Islam," I'm trying to curb immigration."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/25/al-qaeda-video-asks-detroit-area-muslims-terrorize/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/25/al-qaeda-video-asks-detroit-area-muslims-terrorize/)
Allowing anyone and everyone to immigrate to the U.S. is not good policy. The open borders is a problem as well, huge problem. Terrorism is a continuing threat and must be dealt with seriously.
But the idea that "Only Christians and mostly Europeans" should be allowed into the country is impractical, unconstitutional and unenforecable (how does one "prove" their Christianity to an immigration board?).
That's very hard/impossible. But a nice test would be to let teh immigrant spit on for example the quran :winkgrin:
QuoteWhat is being proposed here - (per WW): "removing everything which opposes (a Christian state)"
Show me were I wrote that.
Quote from: TTI mean how long can Christains live side by side with non christians?
Shouldn't God lead his people into their own land if things get out of hand?
Maybe that's what already happening....
QuoteWhat's really being called for is a totalitarian Christian state. That is something America is not, has never been and will never be unless our current constitution is burned and a new one re-written.
I would suggest alternative answers are searched for. All three posters I quoted seem to pretty much concede that purging America from it's multiculturalism and from it's many religions is not even possible.
The answer is stop mixing paint. At least it's a good start. Jesus spoke with others but never gave in to the slightest non Christian/Jewish demand.
QuoteOh - and remove any practice of "foreign" culture since: Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
Multiculteralism is cultural genocide.
That's a simple fact. The question is: is multiculturalism an improvement. If yes tehn by all means continue.
QuoteMaybe we can start with the Jewish culture. They don't believe in Jesus and (oh yeah) they killed Jesus. :mblush:
Sound familiar?
BTW - my brother is a skinhead and he says the exact same things that the posters above are saying.
My broter is deaf and blind and likes your posts.
Quote from: FirstbornBUT - if we are going to have an inquisition as to the potential immigrant's racial background and spiritual beliefs before they are allowed to immigrate, then that is anti-christic and bigotry.
I don't know where anyone would get the idea that who we allow to immigrate to our country should be in the same sentence with 'antichrist' and 'bigotry.'
Is Israel a bigot for only allowing Jews to immigrate? Even Christians are not allowed to immigrate to Israel. Are you prepared to call them bigoted?
Jesus himself called those who would not accept his message as 'dust.' He told his disciples, wipe the dust from your feet and move on. God has always been kind to the stranger, instructing Israel to share with them and treat them like their own. But the stranger was not allowed in the Temple. He instructed the Israelites not to intermarry with cultures that practiced idolatry--why not? Is God a bigot and an antichrist?
You can see that our immigration policies were liberalized in 1965 by Congress. Before that, most immigrants were European and undoubtedly Christian. So for 200 years this country was antichrist and bigoted? Moving ourselves back to pre-1965 immigration policies and closing our borders and deporting illegals would not only be not bigoted, it would be prudent.
God has always set apart his people, starting with Adam and Eve.
Quote from: jabcat on October 26, 2010, 01:49:23 PMBut there is much evidence that based on what percentage of a society becomes Muslim, there are increasing demands and expectations regarding Sharia Law for instance,
There is already one in the UK.
In the Netherlands we are in the "maybe it should be made possible somehow" fase.
Quoteand the damage and chaos to a society that can be incurred. I've looked at those numbers, I can't recall them exactly off the top of my head. But I'll guess WW can testify to at least some of that, as The Netherlands have been a testing ground for some of the above.
The Netherlands is a rich country.
Laws are very weakly enforced. And still possibly to live very well when without a job.
What's happening right now (for decades) is Islamic influx of mostly Turkey and Marocco.
There are schools in those countries. Many graduate from uni etc etc.
But the unedicated/jobless people move to the Netherlands. Here they have very little chance for jobs.
Many can't even read or write in their own language. Here about every job requires reading an computer skills.
Result no jobs. Seperate society. Imams are poking up the fire. Islam is peaceful... sure. Pitty there are no peaceful verses in their book that aren't overruled by later verses.
Wolves in sheepskin. Just look at that guy at teh mosque near ground zero. Listen to his cheerful speeches in English. The read what he says in speeches in Islamic countries.
It's not just a problem they just be here. They only take. Refuse to give. And refuse to mix.
Society in society.
The weird thing is that in Turkey they restrain Islam more that in the Netherlands.
I always remeber what a Chinese student said about his fellow Chinamen.
We (Dutch Chinese) are following Chinese customs of 50 years ago.
A strange statement...
Obama: US 'one of the largest Muslim countries in the world'
June 3rd, 2009 12:14 pm ET
Speaking with France's Canal Plus TV ahead of his Mid East tour, which will include stops in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, President Barack Obama tried to explain to the interviewer how he was going to "remake relations between the United States and the countries of the Muslim world."
Not long into the interview, however, he went off track a bit when he claimed:
What I want to do is to create a better dialogue so that the Muslim world understands more effectively how the United States but also how the West thinks about many of these difficult issues like terrorism, like democracy, to discuss the framework for what's happened in Iraq and Afghanistan and our outreach to Iran, and also how we view the prospects for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians.Now, the flip side is I think that the United States and the West generally, we have to educate ourselves more effectively on Islam. And one of the points I want to make is, is that if you actually took the number of Muslims Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world. And so there's got to be a better dialogue and a better understanding between the two peoples.
The assertion that the United States is one of the largest Muslim countries in the world is baffling, considering the US is estimated to have roughly six million Muslims.
As Toby Harnden of UK's Telegraph points out, having six million Muslims would still put America behind Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Nigeria, China, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morocco, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iraq, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan, Yemen, Tanzania, Syria, Malaysia, Niger, Senegal, Ghana, Tunisia, Somalia, Guinea, Kenya, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Burkina Faso and Tajikistan in number of Muslims, which would make the US the 34th largest Muslim country in the world.
http://www.examiner.com/world-news-in-national/obama-us-one-of-the-largest-muslim-countries-the-world
IMO
We are in the world not of it. We cannot escape it by political means. We have to pray, testify and have faith. We can do all that our faith allows within the divine natureI in other words, we can work in politics, if God so leads, if conscience approve, as long as we remain Christ -like about it. If we act like the world, we are just deceived carnal believers. The story of Esther is the most applicable vision in my opinion. The preservation or chastisement of the United States will not turn on politics, it will turn on salt. "If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their evil ways, then I will hear from heaven and heal their land."
God raised this country up for a reason filled with reasons, but IMO unless Christians unify and pray mightily it gonna go down hill before it goes anywhere else, :o)
I think lukewarm, worldly, spiritually ignorant Christians are twice the problem Muslims are.
QuoteI think lukewarm, worldly, spiritually ignorant Christians are twice the problem Muslims are.
Indeed. Muslims don't have any True power, fear and carnal weapons are all they can muster. But Christians...even lukewarm Christians are image bearers for the conquering God, princes, kings, priests, and stewards...Carriers of Majesty and abusers of it in our lukewarm apathy.
Muslims are dark and in darkness, they do not have any light, the best they can do if anyone of them does an act of evil is put a veil over the land like they veil the faces of their women, and so blind men before they kill them.
But Christians are ministers of fire, candles of light. The most heinous Muslim can only kill in the dark - but a Christian who abuses his place is like a fierce and flaming cherub who can set the whole Earth ablaze and turn it into ashes. Killing in the light, and by it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 05:11:55 PM
Did you even read what I wrote?
Do you really don't see you just proved my point? What happend to the culture of the native Americans when the Europeans and later others poured in? The culture is gone.
I stated facts. I stated there are solutions. I stated they are against current laws. All facts.
The questions are:
- Should things continue as they are going right now?
- Should things be 'frozen' (close borders)?
- Or is it prefered the process accelerates (no more borders)?
- Should laws be rewritten to acomplish any of the above?
What you are saying is clear and easy to understand. And all true. I agreed (early on) that too much immigration and open borders is a huge problem which needs to be fixed.
As to the rest - my point is simply that you are trying to unscramble an egg - it won't work. You say my solutions (such as better background checks for immigrants) are not practical and you start talking about how to preserve a Christian state (where none even exists in the first place) so how is that *(removing all that opposes "it") a practical solution? It's not.
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 05:38:58 PM
Quote from: FirstbornBUT - if we are going to have an inquisition as to the potential immigrant's racial background and spiritual beliefs before they are allowed to immigrate, then that is anti-christic and bigotry.
I don't know where anyone would get the idea that who we allow to immigrate to our country should be in the same sentence with 'antichrist' and 'bigotry.'
Is Israel a bigot for only allowing Jews to immigrate? Even Christians are not allowed to immigrate to Israel. Are you prepared to call them bigoted?
I have no idea what the Jewish constitution says. OURS however says that all men are created equal and says NOTHING about allowing only white European Christians in. Follow me so far?
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 05:38:58 PM
Jesus himself called those who would not accept his message as 'dust.' He told his disciples, wipe the dust from your feet and move on. God has always been kind to the stranger, instructing Israel to share with them and treat them like their own. But the stranger was not allowed in the Temple. He instructed the Israelites not to intermarry with cultures that practiced idolatry--why not? Is God a bigot and an antichrist?
So - all non-Christians are dust to be wiped off our feet? Well that would be fine if the constitution stated anything about this - at all - even one word. It doesn't. Still follow me?
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 05:38:58 PM
You can see that our immigration policies were liberalized in 1965 by Congress. Before that, most immigrants were European and undoubtedly Christian. So for 200 years this country was antichrist and bigoted?
If you were among thse captured and forced across the sea into slave labor you may have a different view of whether the U.S. in her history is guilty of antichristic behavior and bigotry. My answer is - obviously, she is guilty.
BTW - I noticed you dropped the "white" before the word European this time.
Now I'm starting to wonder if you opposed the civil rights movement. Or maybe I shouldn't (please answer, I'm very curious.
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 05:38:58 PM
Moving ourselves back to pre-1965 immigration policies and closing our borders and deporting illegals would not only be not bigoted, it would be prudent.
All illegal immigrants should be deported. As far as your "white Europeans and Christians only" I don't think that was our policy before 1965.
Quote from: Molly on October 26, 2010, 05:38:58 PM
God has always set apart his people, starting with Adam and Eve.
Looks like all the separatists need to find an island somewhere. No kidding. Obviously you will never be comfortable with all the blacks and Asians and Indians which are here now by the millions. :mblush:
God have mercy on anyone stuck on THAT island.
This thread's becoming a little too personal, a little too insulting and presumptive, including with unnecessary inuendo, IMO. Some of the statements being made are uncomfortably close to personal attacks due to the apparent assigning of motive and conjecture to others' statements. I've received a "red flag" message this evening, and I just noticed the past couple of posts.
Why don't we take a step back and examine how we may be coming across, who we may insulting, and possibly injuring in the process. This thread has been allowed to continue in this vein, probably too long already. I'm not seeing a lot of tie-in to UR, which is what Gary's wishes are. If we stay on the high road, factual, not becoming too personal or stirring strife, etc., we can often continue "off-course" a bit with no harm/no foul. However, my guess is he would probably not appreciate the outright high degree of politicization of this discussion, especially if it is strifeful.
Is there something productive to be done here, or are we at a point of "I'll win my case at whatever cost"? If the former exists, let's continue. If this is just a struggle of wills at this point, I'd suggest we either move this back to the OP (gee, I don't even remember what it was at this point) or move onto another discussion.
Thanks, James.
Thank you James. Peace and Love Through Jesus THE :icon_king:
Blessings, micah. Stir somethin' good up tonight!!!!! :boydance:
(nothing yet from The Christian Bible folks :(
Quote from: lomarah on October 05, 2010, 03:07:58 PM
I have been wondering about something lately. Namely why do ET believers/preachers get miracles if what they are teaching is not completely true? I'm not talking about healings and such, but things like angelic protection when preaching their message. For example, I went to a Bible University and a few of our students went on a missions trip to Haiti where they preached the "good news". All of a sudden their eyes were opened and they saw some huge angels and a bunch of little demons and basically they were seeing a spiritual battle going on while a witch doctor gave his life to Christ.
I also just read a similar story about a preacher preaching the "good news" in a prison with mentally insane inmates and his eyes were opened and he saw a bunch of huge angels protecting him. I just don't understand if their "good news" is not exactly the true good news, why does God protect them and their message? (Mind you I don't know exactly what was said by these preachers, if they mentioned anything about eternal hell or whatnot, but I at least know the students were ET believers.)
Bump
Rom 11:29 For, not to be regretted, are the gifts and the calling of God:—
Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him—Do not forbid; for, whosoever is not against you, is, for you.
Mar 9:40 For, whosoever is not, against, us, is, for, us;
Quote from: jabcat on October 27, 2010, 06:19:29 AM
This thread's becoming a little too personal, a little too insulting and presumptive, including with unnecessary inuendo, IMO. Some of the statements being made are uncomfortably close to personal attacks due to the apparent assigning of motive and conjecture to others' statements. I've received a "red flag" message this evening, and I just noticed the past couple of posts.
Why don't we take a step back and examine how we may be coming across, who we may insulting, and possibly injuring in the process. This thread has been allowed to continue in this vein, probably too long already. I'm not seeing a lot of tie-in to UR, which is what Gary's wishes are. If we stay on the high road, factual, not becoming too personal or stirring strife, etc., we can often continue "off-course" a bit with no harm/no foul. However, my guess is he would probably not appreciate the outright high degree of politicization of this discussion, especially if it is strifeful.
Is there something productive to be done here, or are we at a point of "I'll win my case at whatever cost"? If the former exists, let's continue. If this is just a struggle of wills at this point, I'd suggest we either move this back to the OP (gee, I don't even remember what it was at this point) or move onto another discussion.
Thanks, James.
Understood James. I didn't take the thread down this road but definitely responded to those who did. It does sadden me a bit when some who espouse UR (seemingly) don't understand the power of God's plan and want to take the path of "the world" (AKA: a tribal "us vs. them" mentality).
Anyway, it's been eye opening.
Just try to picture Jesus freaking out about multiculturalism. Even Paul didn't do that. I hope both "sides" (the radical "anything goes" crowd and the "only Christians" crowd) can get the real message of America:
Let freedom reign and the truth finds itself.
Selah and goodbye (for now :winkgrin:). :Sparkletooth:
That's ok, Jab. I just want to let you know that I have not been feeling strife with anyone given the nature of the discussion, and compared to these discussions in real life--at least I couldn't hear anyone yelling. :laughing7:
I just wanted to repost this video for Firstborn since he asked me to--
Immigration by the numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ
Regarding the opening post, I think God is very patient with us, the same way we are with our own children, and brings us along a path of spiritual growth as we are able. These churches which preach what some would call wrong doctrines are still churches of God, and God surely knows how to turn it to good in the lives of their members. In this age, he is calling out and choosing his own, no matter what the circumstances. So we see many on this board who suffered under said churches, but have still found the good and righteous God--- because He intended that they would.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Thanks for understanding guys. I kind of expected a beatin'. :Sparkletooth:
Really, what I asked was a step-back, a re-examination of how we may be coming across - and try to remain factual rather than assign our own perceptions to each other's statements, even though that may not be what that other person is really saying. Again, if there were more that needed to be said that might actually be productive, edifying, etc. - and especially if it was indeed UR related, then continue. However, if that were the case, we really probably should split off from this topic that it appears we're getting back on track with. :thumbsup:
But if most has already been said that's helpful, that's good too!
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 27, 2010, 05:15:16 AM
As to the rest - my point is simply that you are trying to unscramble an egg - it won't work. You say my solutions (such as better background checks for immigrants) are not practical and you start talking about how to preserve a Christian state (where none even exists in the first place) so how is that *(removing all that opposes "it") a practical solution? It's not.
Shutting borders is a first step. And a very big step. If I look at the situation here. People enter with no perspective. It gets far out of hand. Then they are allowed to reunite with their family. But family has family too. Then they are allowed to get their partner from their original country. That escalates.
The next thing is enforce laws. Then I mean enforce laws equally for all. That's not being done right now. Just because everything is called discrimination. That increases pressure even more. Those countries seem to have extreme high rates of twins and triplets. And of course 'we'have to pay child support for childeren that are supposed to live in far away countries.
But if laws would be enforced (equally) thier paradise ends. That will slow down immigration considerbly. I think it will even cause de-immigration.
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2010, 07:49:40 AM
That's ok, Jab. I just want to let you know that I have not been feeling strife with anyone given the nature of the discussion, and compared to these discussions in real life--at least I couldn't hear anyone yelling. :laughing7:
I just wanted to repost this video for Firstborn since he asked me to--
Immigration by the numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ
Thank you. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2010, 07:49:40 AM
That's ok, Jab. I just want to let you know that I have not been feeling strife with anyone given the nature of the discussion, and compared to these discussions in real life--at least I couldn't hear anyone yelling. :laughing7:
I just wanted to repost this video for Firstborn since he asked me to--
Immigration by the numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ
I understand the problems laid out. And I understand your pessimism about holding the status-quo standard of living.
My big big problem is when people bring Jesus and race into the equation when this is simply just a
human issue.
God did not empower Christian Europeans to come and cruelly wipe out millions of native Americans (including death marches, forced relocation to inhospitable lands, destruction of the native food supply etc). American Indians were even used for target practice! Now - I know many don't like to hear this but what better way to start than on a foundation of truth, right?
Think any blacks signed up for the slave ships? As I said in my first or second post in this genre of the thread - some serious poetic justice is going on here. I know those on top feel they are entitled to it and are greatly afraid of losing their comfort and freedom. Am I afraid? Yes. But I know enough NOT to claim that I have a divine right to live in peace and prosperity created by cruel plunder with no repercussions whatsoever. Even though I do think the mass immigration is a bad policy.
As a third grader I figured out that I was destined to become a minority in my own town (my Hispanic friends generally had 7-10 brothers and sisters and my Anglo friends 1-4). I didn't know the term "exponential growth" but I saw the concept at an early age.
45 years later, it is as I foretold.
So, my suggestion for a follower of Christ is to state the case for immigration reform and leave the "superiority of European Christians over all others" part out. Because by dividing by race and religion it becomes the "same 'ol same 'ol" world. Humans acting like animals toward one another.
Some will do what we must to try and keep America as it is - but if we succeed, please don't imagine we will be told in heaven: "Well done! You kept your standard of living high and separated yourselves well from the nonbelievers and crushed their onslaught of your sacred land".
That's just delusional.
Anyway, this is a bit off topic from the OP and I think I have said all I wish on the subject for now. Thanks for the discussion. As always, I learned a lot about myself and others. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
It is just a matter of policy decision--who and how many immigrants we allow in this country.
It is just a matter of policy decision--who and how many illegals we deport.
Right now--I guarantee you--that decision is not being made by the american people.
Most do not even understand what is going on, and those who do are very angry [ciite: arizona].
People need to be made aware of the problem and see how easy it is to handle it--[new law in Congress, enforce already existing laws for illegals]--and handle it.
No need for anything other than that. No need to justify it, or defend it, or anything else. Just do it.
But if they are not aware of the problem, that video shows what will happen given our current policy.
This reminds me of Psalm 91, and Matthew 4. With Psalm 91, it looks as if the true believers who take refuge in God will not be harmed in anyway. No cuts, bruises, illnesses, misfortune, ect. However in Matthew 4, Satan tempts Jesus with this same scripture to try and talk him out of this unpleasant experience. However it doesnt seem like much has changed. You hear quite a bit of this in the Evangelical denominations about being born again, and healed from Alcoholism, cancer, blindness, deafness, as a sign that God has shown you some type of reward for surrendering to Jesus. There is also that Joel Osteen prosperity gospel of "Follow the Lord and you shall recieve great wealth." Then there are some Marian movements in the Catholic Church, for example Medjudgorge. Unfortunately I was sucked into it, and put me through hell. With Medjudgorge, its the same thing. Magical healing cloths that can cure you of any disease, constant repititions of the Rosary, and you can achieve any desire, and that fasting on carbs on Wednesday and Friday while attending Thursday and Saturday morning mass can also get you special benefits. Guess what. These experiences are far and few. Most people get nothing out of these so called spiritual interventions. Most people still go day to day with illnesses, troubles, and the same problems as if they never attended. So, does Psalm 91 really guarantee no harm to true believers? It seem more like the Psalm is saying these harms are only miniscule, and cannot permanently harm us. In fact, the hymn "On Eagles Wings", perfectly alludes to this. The hymn is based on Psalm 91, and Isaiah 40:31, and is real popular with funerals. The point is that not even death is not the end. Now I dont want to demonize these experiences. Miracles have happened to all people regaurdless of their religion. As to why, that is not certain at this time. However the religious systems say that it was for having the most devotions, like meditating on the Torah, fasting for so many days, praying facing Mecca 5 times a day on time, taking the sacraments, praying the sinners prayer, attending weekly church services, attending synagogue or mosque, saying the most mantras, meditating on the great OM, or practicing yoga. However the lie is that these miracles didnt occur because of choosing the right religion, or performing the right rituals, or being the most righteous. They occur because of some higher purpose. Then those who dont recieve these special gifts are told that they just were rejected, because they werent devout enough, chose the wrong religion, or still lived in too much sin, or even worse were just not favored by God. So, the main answer is not "sorry rejected", but something like "Not yet, be patient", or "Its not in your best interests"
:cloud9: Again it all comes down to relationship. If someone has a relationship experience with Him, where you really meet Him, you are changed, and healing is a part of that, either sooner or later, because no man can be in His presence and not be changed. We are told to prosper and be in health, even as our soul prospers. I've been on both sides of this, the healed and the not healed. My :2c: Blessings....
If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him....
If anyone will live godly in Christ Jesus they will suffer persecution....
The rain falls on the just and the unjust....
The Lord knows what is going on- why when we are troubled and deliverance does not seem to manifest in a timely manner- but kno one should judge anyone.... we just do not have the perspective to do that. We intercede and press into the grace of God.
I believe in healing and deliverance, and being proactive about it, but also believe that we abide in Him and trust Him regardless of "results". Methodology is short sighted. Relationship is what its all about.
In whatever state we find ourselves we give thanks. Our destiny is secure..... and we will understand it better by and by.
Abide in Me. I am the Vine, you are the branches.