The Bible states humans and animals have a soul.
Soul is the life force.
Plants are also alive. (experiments even show they have 'emotions')
But the Bible also tells us things like 'life/soul is in the blood'
Plants have no blood but still they are alive.
So do plants have a soul according to the Bible?
Plants are generally in the same class of beings as angels, although they're a natural, physical counterpart with many more restrictions, particularly since the fall. They're created to be the servants of man (Psalm 104:14). There's neither an Evolutionary reason, nor a reason from a Creationist perspective for them to be aware of the same demensions of pain and suffering as what human beings and animals are capable of suffering. They have no fight/flight responses that they're capable of, although some species can turn poisonous in the presence of certain insects in order to deal with excessive insects before the insects deal with them. But that's more of a preservation of the species of certain plants and a balancing of nature so that certain types of insects don't overrun the planet than any kind of self defense mechanism in the way that certain types of frogs and other animals produce poisons to avoid being someone's lunch.
I've heard it said by some Creationists that if you simulate the preflood conditions in a hyperbaric tank, along with certain other conditions being met, that snakes and spiders are no longer poisonous when kept within those parameters inside of those tanks that they've designed for their experiments. It may be conceivable that when certain plants release toxins in response to certain types of insects being present that when they were originally created that it wasn't meant to be toxic, but either just to be aromatic or to have some benefit towards the insects, but that's my speculation alone on the differences between God's original intent in Creation and what things have degenerated into after the fall. But plants have a degree of consciousness as dozens of experiments have demonstrated. They'll often die and/or get sick in the presence of heavier types of music and totally thrive in the presence of classical music, etc.
Quote from: martincisneros on December 11, 2008, 09:31:01 PM
There's neither an Evolutionary reason, nor a reason from a Creationist perspective for them to be aware of the same demensions of pain and suffering
Experments show plants do have fear and pain. But as you said on a different level. But thats also true between human and (certain) animals. And between animal species. The experience between cows and shellfish are different.
My point is that pain levels/awareness are not the (only) proof for a soul.
Quoteas what human beings and animals are capable of suffering. They have no fight/flight responses that they're capable of,
Few do. Venus flytrap. And some weed/grass that 'swings' away when touched.
QuoteI've heard it said by some Creationists that if you simulate the preflood conditions in a hyperbaric tank, along with certain other conditions being met, that snakes and spiders are no longer poisonous when kept within those parameters inside of those tanks that they've designed for their experiments. It may be conceivable that when certain plants release toxins in response to certain types of insects being present that when they were originally created that it wasn't meant to be toxic, but either just to be aromatic or to have some benefit towards the insects, but that's my speculation alone on the differences between God's original intent in Creation and what things have degenerated into after the fall.
There was a similar experiment in Japan IIRC with cocktail tomatos. Maybe the are called diffrently in the USA. Tomatoes the size of about 2 marbles. Green house with special tuned tempature. Pressure. And oxygen levels. Height, size, lifspan increased dramitically. at least 5x IIRC
QuoteBut plants have a degree of consciousness as dozens of experiments have demonstrated. They'll often die and/or get sick in the presence of heavier types of music and totally thrive in the presence of classical music, etc.
I must have deaf plants then :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 09:51:01 PM
There was a similar experiment in Japan IIRC with cocktail tomatos. Maybe the are called diffrently in the USA. Tomatoes the size of about 2 marbles. Green house with special tuned tempature. Pressure. And oxygen levels. Height, size, lifspan increased dramitically. at least 5x IIRC
If we're thinking of the same thing, then they would be called cherry tomatoes here, I think. Little bitty things that in that context are as big or bigger than regular tomatoes. The plants that are normally around bush size in the right environment turn into really huge trees. If we're not talking about the same thing, then there's still experiments that have conclusively proven that in the right environment, we could easily produce enough food to feed everybody on the whole planet if farming became more restrictive on the atmosphere for the plants and less poisonous with the pesticides. Everytime I hear about someone somewhere that's simulated the preflood world and has a plant producing crazy amounts of fruit that are unbelievably large compared to what's normally expected from a similar plant in a different/normal context, then I start wanting God to give me several extra billions of dollars that I don't have to obligate to anything else other than to see how far that this could be pushed into large scale food production to feed people. The only profits I'd be interested in would be if my ministry still needed anything and to have enough money to constantly expand the amount of food that would be being produced by those methods.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 09:51:01 PM
I must have deaf plants then :laughing7:
Plants are probably like people and animals where each is an individual. If you listen to much metal and got the plants when they were particularly young, then maybe they've enjoyed it during their version of their teen years, however long that would wind up being. Almost anybody or anything can get used to nearly anything if they're introduced to it early enough. I'm sure there's been as many less spectacular experiments with plants and music that don't get reported as quickly and as widely where somebody's plant somewhere preferred Marilyn Manson to Mozart, or didn't care for any music at all one way or the other. Perhaps there's plants somewhere that would absolutely love the art of Claude Monet, but would wilt over Vincent Van Gogh. That some react to any kind of music at all is miraculous enough to make you wonder what other types of sensory perception they have or that other species of plants have.
cherry or grape tomatoes. There's more than one kind of really small tomato.
Quote from: martincisneros on December 11, 2008, 10:22:38 PM
unbelievably large compared to what's normally expected from a similar plant in a different/normal context, then I start wanting God to give me several extra billions of dollars that I don't have to obligate to anything else other than to see how far that this could be pushed into large scale food production to feed people. The only profits I'd be interested in would be if my ministry still needed anything and to have enough money to constantly expand the amount of food that would be being produced by those methods.
Martin start your own ppv TV show. Don't forget to should donate for plants.
Seriously now; did you ever concider to record some UR lecture/sermons and put them on YouTube and GodTube?
About no food in certain parts of the world is more a political, trade barriers and other problems.
If you see how much food it literally destroyed in my own small country each day due to overproduction.
So you answer is a clear "yes (also) Biblical speaking plants have souls" Correct?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 10:43:12 PM
Seriously now; did you ever concider to record some UR lecture/sermons and put them on YouTube and GodTube?
Working on it. Very likely working on it with Not sure yet exactly when stuff will start to be online.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2008, 10:43:12 PM
So you answer is a clear "yes (also) Biblical speaking plants have souls" Correct?
Yes. I've had numerous spiritual experiences where it was obvious that plants around me were reacting and expressing deep interest in the Presence of God, whether I was at home or at a park. The Scriptures speak of trees clapping their hands. Although they lack fingers and bone structure, the analogy regarding their branches and twigs either moving in the wind or reacting to something or Someone is still pretty clear in Scripture. And then the things that you said about certain plants and grasses that move towards or away from stuff.
QuoteEverytime I hear about someone somewhere that's simulated the preflood world and has a plant producing crazy amounts of fruit that are unbelievably large compared to what's normally expected from a similar plant in a different/normal context, then I start wanting God to give me several extra billions of dollars that I don't have to obligate to anything else other than to see how far that this could be pushed into large scale food production to feed people. The only profits I'd be interested in would be if my ministry still needed anything and to have enough money to constantly expand the amount of food that would be being produced by those methods.
That would solve part of the problem, but what about overpopulation? There would have to be laws inforced that limited the number of children a person could have. That means we would have to insist that poorer nations submit to a law that we would never stand for. It's a tough situation.
Or we could just abolish all borders, go to a sales tax instead of an income tax, and if everyone is free to live where they wish, then there's no such thing as overpopulation. The planet could sustain ten to a hundred times the current population if we invested in irrigation of desert climates, well drilling, and various other projects that would reclaim the land, and then stopped paying farmers and grocers to destroy tons and tons of food every single day. Farmers are paid not to farm! Particularly putting those desert regions into the hands of ministers and Churches that know how to walk out the blessing with the Order of Melchezedec. Far North Canada, Greenland, the Antarctic, various deserts, and various other places thought to be uninhabitable could be reinhabited with just a few billion dollars. Maybe not even that much.
I've had the plan for how to do it for years if they wanted to put me in charge of the project. Cash, manpower, and all of these border and who's got the right to which area that nobody's living in anyway are the only current barriers. You'd just about need a global catastrophe to get 'em all willing to turn lose of such tight controls. But islands could literally vanish into these redevelopment projects, although it appears to me that just about every city in the world would have to collapse before they'd be willing to look at what I've got in mind or similar plans that others have devised where you could literally redo the whole planet for about a trillion dollars. And I'm not kidding. God gave me the plan at the same time as He dumped every aspect of the Hosea 2:18 Covenant into my lap in 2001. If He's given it to me, then likely others have it as well 'cause we're getting that close to when it'll become a reality.
As far as bugs, we haven't really seen those in thousands of years. All we've seen are the decayed remains of them ever since the tower of Babel incident. Dragon Flies have been found in the fossil record with a 6ft wing span. I'm not going to say how big some of the other stuff is SUPPOSED TO BE 'cause you wouldn't sleep at night with your mind trying to put that into a context of their present behaviour, lifespan, habitats, etc. For context on the fact that with one big supercontinent prior to the flood and then later with the dividing of the earth again during Peleg's life time, and then again at Babel, the rivers weren't like the rivers today. Beavers in the fossil record get to 20ft tall. Big dams and bridges, eh? You could drive a car over what a beaver that size could do! And it would probably be safer dams and bridges than anything we've got today that's man-made.
I'll be very, very mean by bringing up a question that I have absolutely no intention of answering. Not who, but what built the first pyramids? Think it through since beavers build dams and elephants build roads or pathways to walk by rearranging forests as God's natural gardeners. Think through the animal kingdoms and nations. Answer that question and Stonehenge and other oddities likewise start making sense.
Those idealistic notions are exactly the kind of thing that will be happening when the sons of God rule the nations.
The biggest problem is the monetary system. The only reason to place value on things is for those in control to funnel all of the wealth into their own pockets. Each person (worldwide) should be born with the right to choose a profession based on their talents and interests. We should all be sharing our expertise with one another as needed without requiring payment. The builders of dwellings would go from one piece of land to the next building homes for all. They would build them from materials manufactured by those who chose to be manufacturers in order to contribute to society. Those people could go to a hospital staffed by the best doctors who bid for their positions based on their level of expertise. The primary motivation should be to contribute to society, not to horde riches for oneself. It is the love of money that is the root of all evil, and most evil would vanish if our motivation changed from money to a sense of community and purpose.
Just imagine how many cures for diseases would materialize if the drug companies actually had some motivation to find them rather than making drugs that treat but never cure a disease. Why would a drug manufacturer ever want to cure a disease under the current system? They would be cutting their own throats. Not so if their motivation was to contribute something useful rather than profit from the world's misery. Imagine a legal system where lawyers were motivated to cooperate in order to get to the truth rather than to profit from their clients regardless of their guilt or innocence. This idealistic world can never exist in this aeon. Only when the "First Fruits", the "Sons of God", the chosen "Kings and Priests" of the millennial age are set in authority over the nations can these things occur. It will happen, but not in this age.
So, who do you think would be against this kind of system? That's right, those who stand to profit from the current system. Everyone else would be chomping at the bit to be able to live free from the worries associated with money. If you need food, just go get it. No monetary transaction required. Why would anyone need to steal if they could get anything they needed at any time? Crime would disappear. There is nothing to steal when all is feely given. The quality of food would increase exponentially. The reason we are the most obese nation in the world is that foods are produced as cheaply as possible in order to maximize profits. Without that being a factor, food manufacturers would take pride in producing the most quality product they could. The consumer's health would take precedence over any other concern. The government would exist solely to mediate and regulate. No taxes, no insurance, no burial expenses, no more traveling in aircraft built by the lowest bidder. It will eventually happen, but not yet.
Quote from: martincisneros on December 14, 2008, 09:59:13 AM
Or we could just abolish all borders, go to a sales tax instead of an income tax, and if everyone is free to live where they wish, then there's no such thing as overpopulation.
People will just concentrate even more on certain spots.
QuoteThe planet could sustain ten to a hundred times the current population if we invested in irrigation of desert climates, well drilling, and various other projects that would reclaim the land, and then stopped paying farmers and grocers to destroy tons and tons of food every single day.
But with open borders that won't happen. People will move to area's where it is good right now. Not in 2 generations (or more) We are seeing something similar here in Europe. The borders are more open. New poor members are added.
From Poland for example. Where you think they are gonna work? In their own country or in one of the richer countries where the wages are much much higher. Then a bit later you hear local construction companies in Poland complain they potentially have construction jobs but can't find no workmen because they are working elsewhere.
Cash for wells and irrigation is a good point. If water shows up life shows up. Then it would be better to close borders and force te local people to drill wells (that are financed). And forced to be maintained. You know its not only a money problem. But also a culural problem. I won't even say 'they are lazy' because they often have to work hard for a few grains of rice. But not every culture has the "more more, faster faster" way of life
QuoteFarmers are paid not to farm! Particularly putting those desert regions into the hands of ministers and Churches that know how to walk out the blessing with the Order of Melchezedec.
Surely there are decent people in every nation. But history sadly shows that church isn't any better then regular politics.
QuoteI've had the plan for how to do it for years if they wanted to put me in charge of the project. Cash, manpower, and all of these border and who's got the right to which area that nobody's living in anyway are the only current barriers.
Martin are you the guy from the movie Revelation? :laughing7:
Martin,
I wonder if it is even Biblically possible to have a planet that you describe. Without the hand of God/Jesus.
This is funny...
No, really. I don't know if this is a joke.
Quote from: B_T on December 14, 2008, 11:33:30 AM
This is funny...
No, really. I don't know if this is a joke.
Never underestimate a plant :laughing7:
QuoteBut do plants eat other plants?
Directly no.
Indirectly yes. Some plants are parasites. For example mushrooms that are attached to trees.
QuoteMaybe a very tiny frog in a Venus fly trap?
There are also other plants I don't know the name of.
A 'beker plant' traps insects inside and slowly digests them.
Lets ask the specialist in this matter.
Rose to you eat bugs? :laughing7:
Rose -> powerplant :cloud9: