Hi! All
Did Jesus go to heaven?
Peace!
Roy UK :thinking:? :idea2:? :thinking:?
If he didn't there can't be a second coming.
But it depends on how you define that because the second coming was 12 days after crucifixion
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:16-17
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:26-27
Didn't change your post. Just corrected a system bug.
I believe that Jesus did go to heaven. My point in quoting so many translations on this verse is to evaluate if a multitude of translators thought that "heaven" was the best translation for the particular passage that I'm citing:
11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11 NIV)
11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11 NASB)
11who also said, `Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.' (Acts 1:11 Young's Literal)
11Who said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, Who was caught away and lifted up from among you into heaven, will return in [just] the same way in which you saw Him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11 Amplified)
11 who say also, "Men! Galileans! Why do you stand, looking into heaven? This Jesus Who is being taken up from you into heaven shall come thus, in the manner in which you gaze at Him going into heaven." (Acts 1:11 Concordant Literal)
11Who also said - Men of Galilee! why stand ye looking into heaven? This Jesus who hath been taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, in like manner as ye yourselves have gazed upon him going into heaven. (Acts 1:11 Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)
11who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking up to the heaven? This Jesus, the One being taken from you into the heaven, will come in the way you saw Him going into the heaven. (Acts 1:11 Green's Literal)
11who also said, Men of Galilee, why do ye stand looking into heaven? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven. (Acts 1:11 Darby Translation)
Who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up to heaven? this same Jesus who is taken from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11 Webster's Bible Translation)
As far as "what" heaven is, it's obvious from Ephesians 4:10 that He ascended far above all things so that He'd be able to fill and complete all things, so whatever else that "heaven" is, it's very obviously the type of multi-demensional existance that we'd anticipate through superstring theory in science. He continues in His physical body as an immortal and as the above passage said, He'll bodily return someday in precisely the same body and in precisely the same state of health, and outlook regarding His complete victory, as He ascended from the earliest disciples in. I personally believe in a postmillenial view of eschatology, so for me, I'd be anticipating His coming at the time of the resurrection and the transformation of this planet into the New Earth. I know about the passages that give some people question marks along these lines, but He's simply not coming back previous to that and doing what He told us to do in the Great Commission to disciple all nations.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 09, 2008, 07:30:33 PM
If he didn't there can't be a second coming.
But it depends on how you define that because the second coming was 12 days after crucifixion
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:16-17
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:26-27
Didn't change your post. Just corrected a system bug.
Hi! WhiteWings
Do I understand you correctly? You reckon that the second coming has already taken place.
Peace!
Roy UK :mshock: :mshock: :mshock: :mshock:
Hi! Martin
What do I do with this Scripture? "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. " (1Cor.15:50). A flesh and blood perishable body, what did He do with it? He couldn't have got into heaven shod in that, now could He?
Peace!
Roy UK
Quote from: Roy Monis on September 10, 2008, 12:59:30 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 09, 2008, 07:30:33 PM
If he didn't there can't be a second coming.
But it depends on how you define that because the second coming was 12 days after crucifixion
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:16-17
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:26-27
Didn't change your post. Just corrected a system bug.
Hi! WhiteWings
Do I understand you correctly? You reckon that the second coming has already taken place.
Peace!
Roy UK :mshock: :mshock: :mshock: :mshock:
Yes and no.
Yes because when I read the verses.
No because I think the second coming will after/at the 'end time period'
So that's why I wrote 'depends on the defenition.
Don't ask me for that defenition but for example teh prediction is that the feet of Jesus don't touch the ground when He comes for His 'elect'
But before/in/after teh verses He did really walk on the ground.
And because there are no errors in the Bible there must be some deeper/other meaning.
So no need for all those "shocked" icons because I just quoted reall verses from a real Bible....
And that states imo:
Do not touch me until I have return to my Father.
A few days later He practically orders His apostle to feel His wounds.
AFAIK those 8 days 'in heaven' are called the "Mercy seat"
I have a 70 page document on this subject. Some sort of timeline based on verses.
But I fear that document will cause another mud sling party so if/before I post it I would like a crew member to take a peek at it to check it's allowed to be posted.
My personal impression is that it is a very good document but I'm not qualified enough to judge...
Quote from: wwDo not touch me until I have return to my Father.
A few days later He practically orders His apostle to feel His wounds.
The writer of Hebrews tells us what happened in that time when Jesus ascended to heaven.
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. --Hebrews 9
He is the High Priest, eternal priest on the order of Melchizedek, offering himself as the perfect sacrifice before the throne of God--he is both High Priest and sacrifice. This is why he didn't allow Mary to touch him, because he had to yet ascend to the Father, and had to be completely holy--that is, not touched by anything unclean, as we see the shadow in the practice of the earthly high priest. If he touches anything unclean, he has to start all over again, because anything not holy cannot be in the presence of God the Father.
So we see again, this same event described in the book of Revelation.
1Then I saw in
the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,
the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain,
standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth." 11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!" 13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMvT6ddOuzg
Quote from: Roy Monis on September 10, 2008, 01:13:52 PM
Hi! Martin
What do I do with this Scripture? "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. " (1Cor.15:50). A flesh and blood perishable body, what did He do with it? He couldn't have got into heaven shod in that, now could He?
Peace!
Roy UK
I personally believe that that was St. Paul's paraphrase of Jesus' comment: The flesh profits nothing, the Words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life. Also, there's a difference between the flesh and blood that can't inherit the Kingdom that's perishable and the flesh that's been transformed by the resurrection. St. Paul goes into this long thing in 1Corinthians 15 about sowing and reaping applying to the resurrection state with what our body is transformed into. And also, inheriting the Kingdom of God isn't "going to heaven," it's a matter of walking in Kingdom authority and the principles of the Kingdom. I've inherited the Kingdom, already, in one sense 'cause I'm walking in the fullness of what the Name of Jesus means as the only Name given under heaven by which men must be saved. There are several passages that demonstrate that this inheriting isn't related to death and isn't limited to the timeframe of the resurrection, although obviously in our immortal states we've inherited extra-demensions and more easily walk in that unlimited state. But Christians for centuries have walked in various aspects of having inherited the Kingdom with being able to multiply food, bilocation when they were taking care of the needs of others, multiplication of money, healing gifts, flying, the ability to walk through walls, etc. When you look at the particular Catholic saints that walked in all of those blessings and benefits of the Kingdom, they tended to have the Bread and Cup every single day with great reverence and awe. And I mention Catholic saints although there are also Protestant equivalents simply because the Catholic church has the longer history and it's easier to cite a longer list of examples with St. Martin De Porres, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Anthony, and others that some historians would call the mystics. Inheriting the Kingdom is a mindset, as well as an eschatological event. St. Paul said in Romans 5 that we reign now as Kings after having received the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. But it's not a matter of personal pedigree. He wasn't healing the sick because he was Pharisee of the Pharisees, of the tribe of Benjamin, etc., etc. Jesus is bodily in heaven. The body's not hidden in a cave somewhere waiting on Him to animate it again at the last day. His flesh, according to 1Corinthians 15, was transformed into something less fragile and incorruptible. It was either St. Paul or St. Peter said that Jesus was raised from the dead and it's impossible for Him to see corruption or decay or any further death. Peter mentioned it on the day of Pentecost. And I believe that there's a reference elsewhere about the fact that He could never die again. Romans 10:9 puts a premium on our salvation being about believing that God raised Jesus bodily from the dead. If it was important enough to do, and important enough for all of the early Creeds, and important enough for the prophets to have spoken of, then there's no question that He's still got that physical body. The book of Hebrews even goes so far as to say that He entered into heaven with His own Blood having obtained redemption for us. His Blood today is on the heavenly mercy seat, which apparently is the original one that Moses was shown and told to make a precise copy of. Whether people want to argue about the mercy seat being a piece of furniture or Jesus' own Body, the Scriptures are clear that His Blood is in heaven validating and enforcing this Covenant for all that believe it and function in the keys of the kingdom.
Quote from: MartinWhether people want to argue about the mercy seat being a piece of furniture or Jesus' own Body, the Scriptures are clear that His Blood is in heaven validating and enforcing this Covenant for all that believe it and function in the keys of the kingdom.
21And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
--Exodus 25
Hi! WhiteWings, Martin and Molly
Thank you for your responses, it is helpful.
WhiteWings your are touchy! The shock icons were for me because I thought I'd missed His return and was about to cry. Only kidding brother, I'll change it, to this :egyptdance:.Any better?
I was wondering if this Scripture had anything to do with it: ""Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.' " (Heb.10:5-7).
This quote from Molly sort of points in that direction,
QuoteQuotehe went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made,
. Also WhiteWings quote
QuoteTouch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
could have some bearing on it.
The body that Jesus occupied was not of the dust like the rest of humanity and living things, but one specially prepared in readiness before His coming. Not made of human hands or produced by human means. (Jn.1:11-13). "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
A carnal analogy would be like hiring a car for a set period of time and then returning it to its source when the job was done. A sort of flesh and blood celestial body, because from the reading that's what it was. I suppose when He comes again He'll have to hire that same vehicle again. He will be coming in the old one whereas we will have new ones modeled after His. IMO :IloveU: :IloveU: :IloveU:
Peace!
Roy UK
Quote from: Roy Monis on September 11, 2008, 03:04:21 PM
The body that Jesus occupied was not of the dust like the rest of humanity and living things, but one specially prepared in readiness before His coming. Not made of human hands or produced by human means. (Jn.1:11-13). "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
I understand that verse is tehre to emphasize Jesus is very special. I'm not denying that.
But aren't we all of the Ghost?
I can best explain that with some funny experiment about life I saw over 20 years ago.
The chemical compounds of a human are fully know. So the 'scientist' took fishtank, poured a few buckets of water in it. Added a can of carbon and some other stuff. Then added some minerals etc. Took a mixer. Then started to wait and was looking very puzzled why no baby formed in that fish tank. What was missing? The life spirit of God.
That said the puzzle is still unsolved for me.
The 2 verses I quoted are only a few verses apart. Not taken out of context or twisted with difficult explantion.
Reading them it's 100% clear for me Jesus went to Heaven and returned to earth (and a few days later returned to Heaven)
Very clear.
Until elsewhere (revelation) also very clear and equally valid verses stated Jesus will return a second time to get His people. With additinal info His feet won't touch teh ground. So you could argue He returned after 8 days to collect His people. But then that means revealtion took place 8 days after the cross. The vision of revelation was after the fact. The prophesy was wrong because Jesus touched the ground.
And I don't believe there are such huge mistakes in the Bible (not even small one)
So basicly I'm very confused.
Perhaps Molly and martin adressed what I wrote but then I simply don't understand their writings.
Perhaps Jesus didn't went to Heaven in those 8 days. All that is said that He went to the Father.
So in theory they just could have met on the moon....
QuoteThe vision of revelation was after the fact. The prophesy was wrong because Jesus touched the ground.
to what scripture are you refering?
Let me first make very clear I'm not saying I found an error in the Bible.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
For me the red part shows that when Jesus returns the first time (just before teh 7 years of tribulation(?)) He stays in the air; collects His people and returns to Heaven.
Quote from: RoyThe body that Jesus occupied was not of the dust like the rest of humanity and living things, but one specially prepared in readiness before His coming. Not made of human hands or produced by human means. (Jn.1:11-13). "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
This is very interesting. Could you talk more about this? Are you saying that Jesus had a special body while he was on this earth? And, how does that relate to us?
Quote from: wwUntil elsewhere (revelation) also very clear and equally valid verses stated Jesus will return a second time to get His people. With additional info His feet won't touch teh ground. So you could argue He returned after 8 days to collect His people. But then that means revealtion took place 8 days after the cross. The vision of revelation was after the fact. The prophesy was wrong because Jesus touched the ground.
I'm not sure why you think Jesus is returning just once---? Weren't the passages in Hebrews and Revelation clear enough? Jesus, as high priest, had to present the perfect sacrifice, himself, the Lamb of God, to God, right after the crucifixion, for forgiveness of the sins of the world.
6When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.--Hebrews 9
But, this is not the only time that Jesus returns to his people--
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2008, 08:18:36 PM
Quote from: wwUntil elsewhere (revelation) also very clear and equally valid verses stated Jesus will return a second time to get His people. With additional info His feet won't touch teh ground. So you could argue He returned after 8 days to collect His people. But then that means revealtion took place 8 days after the cross. The vision of revelation was after the fact. The prophesy was wrong because Jesus touched the ground.
I'm not sure why you think Jesus is returning just once---? Weren't the passages in Hebrews and Revelation clear enough? Jesus, as high priest, had to present the perfect sacrifice, himself, the Lamb of God, to God, right after the crucifixion, for forgiveness of the sins of the world.
"...clear enough..." => I stated I see contradictions in my own statement. If you say there can be many comings then things get easier to understand.
I wrote about 2 comings because of many sites like:
http://www.cynet.com/Jesus/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Cominghttp://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=263http://www.gotquestions.org/second-coming-Jesus-Christ.htmletc
etc
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
--1Thess 4
"the coming" [of the Lord]
G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.
G3918
πάρειμι
pareimi
par'-i-mee
From G3844 and G1510 (including its various forms); to be near, that is, at hand; neuter present participle (singular) time being, or (plural) property: - come, X have, be here, + lack, (be here) present.
Matthew 10:7
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Quote from: ww"...clear enough..." => I stated I see contradictions in my own statement. If you say there can be many comings then things get easier to understand.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. --Rev 22
"come"G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomaier'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in
the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur);
to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): -
accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.
Hi! Molly
QuoteQuote from: Roy
The body that Jesus occupied was not of the dust like the rest of humanity and living things, but one specially prepared in readiness before His coming. Not made of human hands or produced by human means. (Jn.1:11-13). "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
This is very interesting. Could you talk more about this? Are you saying that Jesus had a special body while he was on this earth? And, how does that relate to us?
This is what I understand from the reading of (Heb.10:5-7) which says, "Therefore, when He
comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. "Then I said, 'Behold,
I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.' "
Now bearing in mind that there had been no physical relationship between Joseph and Mary before the archangel Gabriel announced the fact that she was conceiving a Child by the Holy Spirit, proves that the body was something other than one produced by normal human relations, that is, from the dust of the earth. Add the above statement to this fact and you have a special body unlike ours.
At sometime between creation itself and the His birth a body was prepared for Him in readiness for this momentous event. It is a special body like the one we will all have at some future date when He returns. The only explanation I can offer is that the flesh and blood body that Jesus occupied was both physical and spiritual.
If you remember during His ministry at one point the Jews were attempting to kill Him and He just did a vanishing trick; "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but
Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." (Jn.8:59). And when He reappeared after the crucifixion He had His normal physical body which the apostles both touched and ate with, yet He made His entrance through closed doors.
Peace!
Roy UK
Hi! Brother WhiteWings
QuoteAnd because there are no errors in the Bible there must be some deeper/other meaning.
So no need for all those "shocked" icons because I just quoted reall verses from a real Bible....
And that states imo:
Sorry about the shock icons :laughing7: that's better.
The are only two comings. The first was Jesus Christ's physical appearance on earth which was the sowing of the crop. The start of the salvation of all mankind work His Father had commissioned Him to do. This work was completed when He ascended into heaven, 40 days after the crucifixion. His second coming will be to collect His first fruit harvest, that is, the chosen/elect in the first resurrection, then after His 1000year rule with His elect will come the second White Throne Judgment when all the rest of mankind will be judged and purified like silver; "He will sit as a
smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness." (Mal.3:3).
'Tis true His feet don't touch the ground of this earth and neither will those of the elect/chosen who meet up with Him in the clouds.
Peace!
Roy Uk
Quote from: Roy Monis on September 12, 2008, 01:17:06 PM
'Tis true His feet don't touch the ground of this earth and neither will those of the elect/chosen who meet up with Him in the clouds.
Peace!
Roy Uk
and I suppose he will be covered in blood, with a sword coming out of his mouth, while riding on a horse too.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Quote from: Larenand I suppose he will be covered in blood, with a sword coming out of his mouth, while riding on a horse too.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Hey bro ..now, wont that be quite a sight for such literalists.... :icon_flower:
Hi! Laren
Quoteand I suppose he will be covered in blood, with a sword coming out of his mouth, while riding on a horse too.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Me thinks you're argument is with God brother not me. I only agreed with WhiteWings that the Lord's feet don't touch the ground and neither those of the elect unless of course they are very, very, tall because clouds are usually pretty high. That's what it says in Scripture and that's what I believe. (1Thess.4:16-17) in case you missed it, verse 4 is for you I reckon. It doesn't mention, blood, white linen, sharp sword, rod of iron and wrath in these verses or I'd have mentioned them. Sorry to disappoint you! :bigGrin: :bigGrin: :bigGrin: :bigGrin: :bigGrin:
Peace!
Roy UK
Laren, ya make a great point. You're implying (to me) that if you're going to take one part of it literally, then ya need to take the whole thing literally and to that I say yes and amen . . .I agree and it can't be done because it's just as you said . . .Jesus is going to come covered in blood . . .not even looking like a man, but a lamb that had been slain . .he's going to have this huge blade projecting out of his mouth, his hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .
Once you start separating that which is literal and that which is not, you begin a long and slippery road that never ends and only leads you to division and confusion.
Are women really supposed to be quiet in church and let their husbands to the talking and listening?
We've been down this road before . .but it doesn't change the patterns. Revelation is like the rest of the Word . . .it's as dimensional as the one who inspired it. There is a literal, moral and spiritual application. But the spiritual does not come as does the literal and moral. The first two come from God, through men, the third comes from God through Christ . . .spiritual pictures can be shared, but the spiritual truth in them can only be revealed by Grace.
Jesus said this to Peter at the first revelation . . ."Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven."
The Pharisees knew the book inside and out . . .it only led them into bondage. The bread alone isn't enough, we need to have the "proceeding Word", the breath to breathe life into that which is written, which will illuminate "to you" (it's an "individual" relationship) what lies beneath the pages.
and I suppose he will be covered in blood, with a sword coming out of his mouth, while riding on a horse too.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
The armies in verse 14, to me, are the same as the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12 and they are the same as the cloud Jesus came in . . . they are us. Jude speaks of religious men as clouds without water. Hebrews 11 and the first part of 12 goes into elaborate detail who the cloud of witnesses are that envelope us.
2 Peter 1
20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,[h] 21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God.
Private interpretation I think is the King James on that. It's where many get the fact that only Scripture can interpret Scripture . . .and yet, so many still choose their own interpretations.
These things were inspired by the spirit . . .which to me, means that the life we're to gain from them is through spiritual interpretations as well. And when you look at clouds in Scriptures like Hebrews 12, you can see that the clouds consist of us. Saints who've gone on before us. Controversial? You bet. But think about it . . .why would God go through all the trouble of giving a word to them then, for us to take literally now . .especially when he already laid out a pattern of trying to save yesterday's manna for today.
On the one hand I claim to have a re NEWED mind, while at the same time, I embrace yesterday's bread.
Lamentations 3
22It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
His mercies are new every morning . . .that doesn't sound like yesterday's manna to me . .that sounds like a fresh word for a new day. It's still the same Bible, just read in a new perspective. The end result, life, liberty and love beyond measure.
Scripture says the sword is the word . .which is why you see the sword coming out of his mouth . .it is the message of God that is doing the work . .God "speaks" and it is so.
What nations are being smitten? Tradition says it's all the physical nations that are plotting to erase Israel of the map. Jesus warns the disciples of the coming doom upon Israel in Matthew 24 and he says "nation will rise against nation". I'm sure most have done a little research and have learned "how" the destruction of Israel actually came about. Rome did slaughter them, but that was not there intent. They came to bring peace because it was the religious sects that created such a civil war that Rome stepped in to try to get it under control. . . .nations did not come into Israel to rise against them . . .the nations that rose against each other were the religious sects.
So . . . ..here in Revelation, I see these nations falling to the sword out of the mouth of Jesus, are those who reject the light and life of Truth and embrace their own version of what they perceive truth to be. It's the message of truth itself that does the destroying of the carnality of religious minds.
There for the grace of God go I . . .I was so bound by religiousness and I would never have admitted it because I was to blind to see it. The only way I "did" see it was not because someone preached me a sermon on it, but because God chose to break the scales off my eyes . . .I had a hunger for intimacy even though I didn't really know what that meant. Even so, God was working in me, giving me his desire both to will and to do his good pleasure . . .and that's just what happened.
Quote from: NATHANhis hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .
I just 'saw' this the other day. It's nice to hear you say it, too.
God has many ways to communicate to us--starting in the natural and moving to metaphor, simile, the more spiritual aspects of language, and, finally, to the spiritual revelation itself.
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. --Rev 1
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and
the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and
the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
--Daniel 7
QuoteOn the one hand I claim to have a re NEWED mind, while at the same time, I embrace yesterday's bread.
Not up to posting much now Nat....still in much discomfort etc from last week..but I keep a lurking... :icon_flower:
na...that yestedays bread ( food)Tis DUNG...
that sword is
JUDGMENT bro..dividing the OLD man from THE NEW...AMEN!
Revelation is SYMBOLIC....I care NOT what other Say as It speaks of Him...and HIS work of redemption...AMEN there too bro.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
theres not just you or I but others on this board who thinks likewise. and not just at this board either...
But I have NO DESIRE to CHEW IT with those who see things differently...
Later Matye
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2008, 10:55:23 PM
Quote from: NATHANhis hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .
I just 'saw' this the other day. It's nice to hear you say it, too.
God has many ways to communicate to us--starting in the natural and moving to metaphor, simile, the more spiritual aspects of language, and, finally, to the spiritual revelation itself.
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
--Rev 1
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
--Daniel 7
For Mine..Hairs are Likened to
THOUGHTS ....HIS HAIR was WHITE(
pure) as SNOW....That which IS GOOD withoUt CORRUPTION.
Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
..there are TWO types of Thoughts...the THOUGHTS of those WHO SLEEP in the NIGHT(old c)..MEN sleep IN THE DARKNESS of NIGHT( old c)
Job 4:13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men
Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity
the thoughts of the WICKED are that of the OLD MAN..
Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words
Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man,
that they [are] vanity. Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words.
..tis the yhoughts OF THE RIGHTEOUS( born of HIM) which are PURE
Pro 12:5 The thoughts of the righteous [are] right: [but] the counsels of the wicked [are] deceit.
MAYBE A ..AH HA moment?
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a
discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. In TRUTH Indeed HIS THOUGHTS will become OUR Thoughts...for we SHARE THE SAME MIND of HE who was sent...,
Quote from: Taffy on September 13, 2008, 01:08:37 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2008, 10:55:23 PM
Quote from: NATHANhis hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .
I just 'saw' this the other day. It's nice to hear you say it, too.
God has many ways to communicate to us--starting in the natural and moving to metaphor, simile, the more spiritual aspects of language, and, finally, to the spiritual revelation itself.
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
--Rev 1
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
--Daniel 7
For Mine..Hairs are Likened to THOUGHTS ....HIS HAIR was WHITE( pure) as SNOW....That which IS GOOD withoUt CORRUPTION.
Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
..there are TWO types of Thoughts...the THOUGHTS of those WHO SLEEP in the NIGHT(old c)..MEN sleep IN THE DARKNESS of NIGHT( old c)
Job 4:13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men
Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity
the thoughts of the WICKED are that of the OLD MAN..
Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words
Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity.
Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words.
..tis the yhoughts OF THE RIGHTEOUS( born of HIM) which are PURE
Pro 12:5 The thoughts of the righteous [are] right: [but] the counsels of the wicked [are] deceit.
MAYBE A ..AH HA moment?
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
In TRUTH Indeed HIS THOUGHTS will become OUR Thoughts...for we SHARE THE SAME MIND of HE who was sent...,
:bigGrin: :bigGrin:
good post Taffy.
got your pm, just haven't had time to respond. Glad to see you up and posting some. you've been in my
thoughts :grin:
Hi! Nathan
QuoteThe armies in verse 14, to me, are the same as the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12 and they are the same as the cloud Jesus came in . . . they are us. Jude speaks of religious men as clouds without water. Hebrews 11 and the first part of 12 goes into elaborate detail who the cloud of witnesses are that envelope us.
Do I read you correctly? Are you saying that the cloud of witnesses are the armies that accompany Jesus at His coming? (Rev.19:14).
This would mean that a resurrection has already taken place and that when you die you go to heaven, which is what Babylon believes, the only difference being that they believe in an immortal soul from birth.
If so how do you account for;
13 "
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (Jn.3:13)
And
"29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day." (Acts.2:29).
And
"16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." (1Tim.6:16).
Peace!
Roy UK
Hi! Nathan
Quotehis hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .
White, yes! But where does it say coarse and curly? You're only assuming this I presume because that's how sheep's wool is.
Peace!
Roy UK
Quote from: Roy Monis on September 13, 2008, 12:53:44 PM
Hi! Nathan
Quotehis hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .
White, yes! But where does it say coarse and curly? You're only assuming this I presume because that's how sheep's wool is.
Peace!
Roy UK
I'm not going to even read the first page of this thread to see how it got here :sigh:
Hi! Taff
How's it going bro? Not too good by your post but remember our prayers are constantly with you, and you can never underestimate the power of prayer.
(http://dl2.glitter-graphics.net/pub/419/419062tg71km3kmb.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
Now to your post.
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. (Rev.1:1).
Yesterday's bread "Dung!" Yuk! No desire to chew on it, neither do I.
The Sword Judgment Yep! Dividing separating the two.
Signified means symbolic Yep! Full marks.
Now take it easy and get yourself back to normal.
Love to self and family.
Peace! Specially for you.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w294/MoDans55/Animations/Computerrepair.gif)
Roy
Hi! Brother firstborn888
You have the answer brother, "Don't read it" :Oops: :Oops: :Oops: :Oops:
Peace!
Roy UK
Quote from: firstborn888 on September 13, 2008, 01:22:03 PM
Quote from: Roy Monis on September 13, 2008, 12:53:44 PM
Hi! Nathan
Quotehis hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .
White, yes! But where does it say coarse and curly? You're only assuming this I presume because that's how sheep's wool is.
Peace!
Roy UK
I'm not going to even read the first page of this thread to see how it got here :sigh:
....the hair of his head like the pure wool...--Daniel 7
Main Entry:
woolFunction: noun
Pronunciation: 'wul
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English wolle, from Old English wull; akin to Old High German wolla wool, Latin vellus fleece, lana wool
1 : the soft
wavy or curly hypertrophied undercoat of various hairy mammals and especially the sheep made up of a matrix of keratin fibers and covered with minute scales
Quote from: TaffyFor Mine..Hairs are Likened to THOUGHTS
Hi Taffy, Can you show me scripture for this? Not disagreeing, just would like to see it.
Quote from: Roy Monis on September 13, 2008, 12:45:00 PM
Hi! Nathan
QuoteThe armies in verse 14, to me, are the same as the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12 and they are the same as the cloud Jesus came in . . . they are us. Jude speaks of religious men as clouds without water. Hebrews 11 and the first part of 12 goes into elaborate detail who the cloud of witnesses are that envelope us.
Do I read you correctly? Are you saying that the cloud of witnesses are the armies that accompany Jesus at His coming? (Rev.19:14).
This would mean that a resurrection has already taken place and that when you die you go to heaven, which is what Babylon believes, the only difference being that they believe in an immortal soul from birth.
If so how do you account for;
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (Jn.3:13)
"29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day." (Acts.2:29).
And
"16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." (1Tim.6:16).
Peace!
Roy UK
Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
2 Corinthians 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
The biggest one for me is as I mentioned, it's in Hebrews 12. In Hebrews 11 he goes into all of the great men of God who'd passed on long ago and lists many of them by name, then in the opening of Hebrews 12, he states that this great "cloud" of witnesses are among us as well. This is where my understanding of dimensions comes into play. Heaven is all around you . ..it's just in a spiritual realm where your eyes can't see because your eyes, and mine, are physical eyes and not natural. Heaven is not some far off place, it's not even a "place" with space and time, it's merely a dimension where God does live . .this is why it's so easy to see that Jesus and God are one. God's realm encompasses our realm . . .and when Jesus manifested in ours, he was still in God's also. They were never separated when Jesus appeared here, God was always enveloping Jesus and Jesus was always in God.
It's the same with us . .we are always encompassed by those who've gone on before us. The spirit realm and heaven is the same dimension. So yeah, I do believe when you die, your soul does not remain in the physical world as your body does.
Your quote on David . . .he wasn't saying his spirit is still in the tomb, he is just simply stating his body is in the tomb . .David is no different than Abraham who was mentioned in Hebrews 11 . .he's in the cloud that encompasses us.
Your passage in 1 Timothy is simply saying that no man "my man is my carnality . .my natural reasoning, my ego" can enter into the spiritual realm. That's the same thing as saying your mind is at enmity with God and doesn't understand the things of God because it doesn't have the capacity to.
Perhaps you could explain who it is that Hebrews states that is the cloud of witnesses???
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Here is some thoughts on clouds, and along the lines of Nathan's post re: cloud of witness, and this verse
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
God's "coming on the clouds of heaven" is often a symbolic way of speaking of judgement
Isaiah 19:1 (NKJV) The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.
Nahum 1:3 (NKJV) The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
Mark 14:62 (NKJV) Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."
Revelation 1:7 (NKJV) Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Matthew 24:31 (NKJV) "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Numbers 10:2 (NKJV) "Make two silver trumpets for yourself; you shall make them of hammered work; you shall use them for calling the congregation and for directing the movement of the camps.
Leviticus 25:9 (NKJV) 'Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land.
Isaiah 27:12-13 (NKJV) And it shall come to pass in that day That the LORD will thresh, From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt; And you will be gathered one by one, O you children of Israel. 13 So it shall be in that day: The great trumpet will be blown; They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
Isaiah 11:1-5 (NKJV) There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. 3 His delight is in the fear of the LORD, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
11 It shall come to pass in that day That the LORD shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Daniel 12:1-2 (NKJV) "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:7 (NKJV) Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NKJV) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven (see Exodus 34:5) with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection). 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Luke 21:27-28 (NKJV) "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
Hebrews 9:24-28 (NKJV) For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another; 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
"Whosoever lives and believes in me will never die."
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the Holy Scriptures,)
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Hi! Brother Nathan
Please don't misunderstand my post, I am not critiquing it but simply asking you if the resurrection had already taken place? If the cloud of witnesses are the dead of ancient times, then they are presently in heaven, that is, in the air that envelops us. Who then are the elect that will be gathered from the four corners of the earth when He comes? "31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." (Matt.23:31)
In Hebrews Paul is talking about those who died from Adam to date, "They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." (Heb.11:37-40). None were made perfect, so none could have entered heaven to come as the cloud of witnesses with the Lord.
And you haven't answered my question regarding Jesus' statement; ""No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (Jn.3:13). So how do these clouds of witnesses, if they are the dead, come to be where they are when Jesus claims to be the only one to have reentered? How can He claim to be the First Fruits of the dead if He has already been beaten to it by the cloud of witnesses?
Nevertheless your post and that of Laren are very interesting and I'll be printing them out and reading up on them in prayer and will get back to both of you in the near future. In the meantime maybe you will clarify the above questions.
Nathan, to keep the conversation going smoothly please answer the questions before wandering off on to something that is way off topic.
Thank you brother
Peace!
Roy UK
If my great great grandpa, great grandpa, grandpa, and father, who all represented or pointed to a great Truth, were slaughtered by extremists who refused to see the truth;
and years later, I who represented the same truth; and was appointed to go and judge and destroy the extremists; I would be bringing my "grandpa etc" along with me; "in spirt and truth". In other words everything they remained faithful and pointed to, would be validated.
perhaps the cloud of witness, is a representation "in spirit" rather than they actually accompanied in "resurrected bodies"??
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Hi Laren , I believe it is the SPIRIT OF GOD & Christ in them .. :HeartThrob:Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
the Cross of Christ Is a very significant [Point ] of turning things around to me
Its a BIG deal , to me and I believe .. peace Rose
good post Bro G about the thoughts bro , i can see that too!
back to lurking again , Im having alot of allergy and discomfort as well , I do feel for you bro
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. :thumbsup:
if you look up black in 3 places its the black ink here in matt and rev 6
verses 5 and 12 and white there are 25 verses amazing connections !!!, leukos
from luke ("light")1) light, bright, brilliant
a) brilliant from whiteness, (dazzling) white
1) of the garments of angels, and of those exalted to the splendour of the heavenly state
2) shining or white garments worn on festive or state occasions
3) of white garments as the sign of innocence and purity of the soul
b) dead white
1) of the whitening colour of ripening grain
head kephalē g 2776 from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing)
1) the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.
2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
c) of things: the corner stone
Jesus being the Head of the corner , pure thoughts
now look into hair and see if you cannot see the symbolism
peace rose
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2008, 09:29:21 PM
Quote from: TaffyFor Mine..Hairs are Likened to THOUGHTS
Hi Taffy, Can you show me scripture for this? Not disagreeing, just would like to see it.
Consider that Christ spoke anything lest in PARABLES....
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. .....
Mary , for ever MINDFUL of Christ in her thoughts....
Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped [them] with the hairs of her head.
Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at
Jesus' feet, and heard his word. THE GOOD PART, is that which has always BEEN,Christ within.
Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath
chosen that good part, which
shall not be taken away from her. Hair is seen also as A COVERING,Strength, Raiment of the woman( Church)
1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as
he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.
Its also interesting to Note His Garment CAME DOWN TO FOOT
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man,
clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle Do we not DON HIS raiment,....become HIS BODY,..feet also being a PART.
Psa 119:105 NUN.
Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a
light unto my path. Psa 122:2
Our feet shall
stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem. our feet BECOME HIS FEET..YOU COULD CONSIDER THE feet OF THOSE BEING cut off IF THEY CAUSE OFFENCE..those pharisees, PREACHED a different WAY OF life WHICH INDEED LED TO death..QUITE THE CONTRARY to the GOSPEL
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written,
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! which sorta comes full circle
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32 ¶
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him
will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also
deny before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 10:34 ¶ Think not that I am come to send
peace on earth: I came not to send peace,
but a sword. Taffy
Hi Rosey......
thanks for sharing sis.... :thumbsup:....I did sent ya a PM , hope ya got it girl. :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Thanks Ron..
healing slowly matey..be OK in time for Cricket season :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Ya Been In my thoughts To Laren, thanks for the PM Bro,...heartening to hear your in postive spirits as you endure this trial.
Blessings
:icon_flower:
Psalm 100:4
Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Carry on! :Sparkletooth:
"31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." Matthew 24
Roy, I don't look at this in the same light as I think you are. The context in which this is being given is not connected to a removal of the church but the removal of an old religious system. Israel embraced that which no longer was in effect. But in order for the new to be established, the old had to be done away with. But if the new is rejected and the old embraced, it doesn't change what must be done for righteousness to be manifested in the nation. Israel wasn't purged in A.D. 70 because God was mad at them. It happened because they rejected the life offered to them. A replacement was necessary, had they received it voluntarily, the slaughter never would have happened.
This entire chapter is dealing with that issue, not about a rapture. But notice in this verse and the one previous, it speaks of the sky . . . it's a picture of what's happening in the spirit. The same thing happened in A.D. 70 that happened in Egypt. When the plagues hit, Goshen was protected. When A.D 70 transpired, the Jews were slaughtered, but the Christians were not. "They" were pursecuted later and did get a lot of attention, but not when Rome came in and wipe Israel out.
To me, the spiritual picture is the same as wheat and tares . . .the angels do the harvest there as well and the wheat and tares are what's planted "in me" as I am the field. It's the message of truth and life that separates . .it's the message of the "Word" that divides assunder the spirit and soul, the bone and marrow. It's all connected.
As to the Hebrews 11 passage . . . read the Message Translation . .see if it illuminates anything . ..
39-40Not one of these people, even though their lives of faith were exemplary, got their hands on what was promised. God had a better plan for us: that their faith and our faith would come together to make one completed whole, their lives of faith not complete apart from ours.
The point is not that they were not made perfect . .but that their works of faith could not perfect them. What "did" perfect them was what Jesus did on the cross. And as near as I can tell . . .that was done "before the foundation of the world" which would tell me that it was done spiritually long before it manifested naturally. And when one dies, one then transends into the spirit realm . .where ALL things are complete. For the sake of argument, say they were not released until the physical cross experience happened, the writer of Hebrews is writing Hebrews "after" the cross . .which again, would bring the saints passed on before, into a perfected state and manifest as a cloud of witnesses.
Did anyone see this cloud? No. It's not a natural cloud, it's a spiritual one. Just because it's not seen by my eye, does not mean it's not there. The bible also states that the angles camp round about those who love the Lord . . .can you see them? No, but that doesn't mean they're not there. Angel simply means messenger . . . I can see that the "message of the Lord" camps round about those that love the Lord as well. You become what you behold. You behold life, life camps around you. You behold judgment . . judgment camps around you. It's all in what your eye contains . .light or darkness.
It is clear that we're coming from different places. I don't require proof, I require nothing. You say what you say and if I need clarification, I can ask, but as for proof, that'd be like me asking my Dad to prove he was related to his Dad. You can get out the microscopes and find the DNA . .but what's the point? I am the result of my Father's love for my mother, and my Father is the result of his father's love.
I see these saints as the cloud of witnesses as a result of my relationship with God. In your relationship with God, you may not see that, but I'm not upset or questioning your relationship with God because of it. Using the Scripture to "prove" everything is not walking in "faith" . .at least not to me . .it's walking in . .well . . .proof. Scripture is not the final word . .it points to the final word, it has the final word "in" it, but only the Spirit can reveal to us what that final word actually is.
That's the uniqueness of being a Christian, what is final to me can be very different than what's final to you. Yet we both are maturing in the Lord at our own unique pace.
Lastly . . .your concern about John 3 as your proof that I'm wrong in seeing the cloud being saints in heaven . . .
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (Jn.3:13)
Let me ask you . . .where did Enoch then go? And Elijah? Elisha walked in it all the time but no one else could see it. It's not a place of the mind, but one of the spirit. This is why I'm not real big on proving or disproving. Clarifying is one thing, but when we start thinking we need to "defend" our stance, to me, it's like saying the truth isn't strong enough to produce life on it's own, it needs my influence . . . and in the end . that can never come to any good.
Oh, by the way, I did answer you're original question . . .I see it spiritually . . . or at least I emphasize the spiritual picture of it.
Your passage in 1 Timothy is simply saying that no man "my man is my carnality . .my natural reasoning, my ego" can enter into the spiritual realm. That's the same thing as saying your mind is at enmity with God and doesn't understand the things of God because it doesn't have the capacity to.
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2008, 09:29:21 PM
Quote from: TaffyFor Mine..Hairs are Likened to THOUGHTS
Hi Taffy, Can you show me scripture for this? Not disagreeing, just would like to see it.
Interesting analyogy. It's funny because most of us are born with very little hair, and when we get very old...men and women alike tend to shed more than they like.....but for a woman...her hair is her glory, but for a man...it is his shame.
Anyway...getting back to the essence of the thread. It appears to me that Jesus has the ability to exist in heaven/paradise while simultaneously preaching to the spirits in prison.....AKA hell.
He is in the world, but not of the world, and so it is the same for us.
One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it
...and this is why it says:
"When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."
What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe!!!!! :) ~Ephesians 4:8-10~