These demons who get cast out are REAL right ~ As I know some on this board whos cast themOUT~~~ well heres a thought , a Little like ADEs when Folk Lay on the death BED and Float, SEEING themselves in some PIT CALLED HELL~~ consider , the carnal Mind is Drugged, its Under spell, Yikes Guys, Ive Have that Many Drugs Pumped into me Ive seen Dragons come the walls due To Morphin et all~ Your mind goes NUTS~
even so, these demons,Ive never seen one as I Just believe they are The doctrines which Bind MEN~~ but for those who DO , I believe that LORD gives US OVER to what we In the carnal MIND WISH TO SEE~~~
Shalom~~
...and give birth to...
...for the serpent becomes a dragon.
the word demon (daimon) originally meant a human who had been deified, it was basically ancestor worship.
....and they took wives for themselves,and bore them children...giants...men of renoun[ancient gods of world] Nasa names it's programs after them to this day.
it's about spirit and flesh here..tokogae....and EVERY THOUGHT IN MAN'S MIND WAS WICKED ALL THE TIME is the result of this 'coupling' with
the flesh of man... the Holy spirit is not that way..it operates to thoughts of...whatever is lovely,chaste,goodness,merciful..it restrains sin in flesh
from entering 'heart' to defile and bring forth wicked deeds. The evil contrast 'tool' that Father designed to set up this good/evil expierence,stimulates
negative 'thought' and impulses.in the body of man..you can recognize it by it's fruit...every good and perfect gift comes from God[TOL]
the mystery of godlessness is this 'tool' void of God's spirit[law of kinds]..that has a contrary[to God] nature of it's own...it is an abomination in our temple's
or bodies[which were and are created for the spirit of God to dwell in..to extol His many virtous qualities. This abomination desolates[destroys] God's
temple's. we are 'stolen' temple vessel's of God..that the contrary spirit drinks wine of fornication out of. To have this evil spirit in our flesh is a form of
spiritual adultery...and bring forth bastards...offspring of vipers.
Adam 'knew' Eve...'know' denotes intimacy with/one flesh with. partaking in disobediance from the tree of KNOWledge of good and evil...it is how...
sin...seduces then enter's into the flesh/mind of mankind.
Now the flesh 'counts' for nothing...it is all about the good evil exercize of God's spiritual children. We are double garmented....wool/linen...see Noble wife
in Proverbs. When Father set this up, He made certain no eternal damage would come to His children through it.In the law if a man has a viscious beast and does not
make allowances to protect the unsuspecting from danger,he is bloodguilty.. They Lamb was slain before the foundations were laid,in accordance with this.
The same for a rooftop haveng a railing to protect. Also,His command....if obeyed would have kept. Loveing God and your fellow man also can 'keep' you
The only area of safety is in and through God. Now satan had an elevated self-image in heaven,as to who he was,what he was,his purpose and function there
he assumed a lot of things.....Father has been 'cutting' him down to size little by little.. the dragon in heaven..that fought and did Not overcome Michael
and the faithful angels..become the 'serpent' when it overcome the most 'subtil' beast of the field.Named ,the beast, is a terrible blow to satan's ego...
when he finally overcome the saints ,he was named the 'man of sin'..or son of perdition. And lastly...he has been named a mere 'tool' used by God to
educate His children....which leads us to the mystery of godliness.
The mystery of godliness is this......man is spiritual progency of the eternal one/sons of God, sown in the earth for this exercize. Humbled in flesh, and the weakness of
it,further humbled by 'missing' the mark...called a 'worm' in his flesh stage,bearing His physical image without His power...doomed to death. This has been his
humble pathetic beginnings.Father ,as creator, names His creation,and He has been elevating man by increments....til those He told 'not my people' are
named'YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD and YOU RECEIVE THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE.
Hmmmn.....He does turn the tables,doesn't He?
REJOICE THAT HE IS YOUR FATHER....PRAISE HIM FOR ALL HIS WORKS!!!!! JEHOVAH JIRAH!
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 01, 2011, 03:18:38 PM
the word demon (daimon) originally meant a human who had been deified, it was basically ancestor worship.
The Hebrew word translated "demons" in verse 17 (שׁד, seed)
Conclusion
In summary, there is no Hebrew word that can be translated as "demons" to communicate what that word implies in English. There does lie behind the Old Testament conception a basic animistic and mythological world view with which the Israelites are in dialog. But they are using the terms and in dialog with such conceptions, not because they accept them or are dominated by them, but precisely to deny the validity of such mythological world views. The biblical writers use the terms not to accept what they represent but precisely to reject it. It is clear that there was a popular belief among Israelites in such things as ghosts and the mythological creatures of Canaanite religion. But the biblical tradition as it stands moves beyond such popular mythological conceptions to a vision of a Creator, a sovereign God who is in sole control of the world, and does not share that with anything or anyone. So again, there are no "demons" in the Old Testament, only idols that are rejected as "no-gods."
http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html
's about spirit and flesh here..tokogae....and EVERY THOUGHT IN MAN'S MIND WAS WICKED ALL THE TIME
You know, that's a really great point!!! When the sons of God slept with the daughters of men, it immediately connects the results of that twisted union to the darkened state of their minds. It doesn't say anything about invisible beings tormenting humans. I did a teaching on the origin of demons that Benny Hinn had preached on . . .I went with his tape series. He believed, don't know if he still does, but he believed they were the disembodied spirits that were the offspring of these fallen angels sleeping with people. They couldn't die like regular people because they were mixed breed, so when the flood came, their bodies died but they were still bound to the earth and that's why they crave a host.
Now, being where I was at the time, that made perfect sense . . .but now that I think about it, it's the craziest thing I've ever heard. IF it were to be true, then how on earth did ANY of Noah's decendants ever survive at all? Because you had the total population of the earth pre-flood that now became "demonized" post-flood . . .millions of people died . . .millions of demons ran rampant . . .but all that was living after that was Noah and his 3 kids. Sounds like they were at a bit of a disadvantage doesn't it? And yet, there is no record of any demon activity through out the entire Old Testament . . .you never hear of ANY of it until Jesus shows up . . .
I'm with Taf . . .and I've been on both sides of "demonic" activity and I can still tell you I believe that ALL of it is deriving from someone's mind on one level or another.
But see, ya gotta be careful with what you believe because should you change "one" aspect of your belief, you need to realize that the one little change will have a great ripple affect throughout the rest of what you believe. Which leads to understanding the devil and where he really resides. Which again . .for me . .. is the carnal mind in us all.
Quote from: Nathan on November 02, 2011, 05:48:02 PM
I'm with Taf . . .and I've been on both sides of "demonic" activity and I can still tell you I believe that ALL of it is deriving from someone's mind on one level or another.
Born in captivity.
... and under Pharaoh — it's the language of a slave.
Seek Me a Woman That Hath a Familiar Spirit, That I May Go to Her, and Enquire of Her. 1 Sam 28:7
Man in all of his accomplishments, still has no idea just how powerful the mind truly is. It can manipulate invisible things with, or without our "conscious" awareness. I think it has a lot to do with why God was so adamant about his kids to not mess with it. It opens a pandora's box that can lead into a whole mess of trouble.
Quote from: Nathan on November 02, 2011, 07:26:34 PM
Man in all of his accomplishments, still has no idea just how powerful the mind truly is. It can manipulate invisible things with, or without our "conscious" awareness. I think it has a lot to do with why God was so adamant about his kids to not mess with it. It opens a pandora's box that can lead into a whole mess of trouble.
This is why he ordered those who consorted with familiar spirits be put to death?
But, Jesus healed them and drove out the demons, a different approach.
Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard [NKJV: a medium], shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 01, 2011, 05:00:14 AM
...and give birth to...
I do believe the teaching of God's word through Br. Paul said that the creature[man/adam] was MADE....
Rom 8:20 for to vanity
was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope, Rom 8:21 that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Is it a surprise to anyone that it is a woman who is sought?
Seek Me a Woman That Hath a Familiar Spirit, That I May Go to Her, and Enquire of Her. 1 Sam 28:7
2Co 11:3 and I fear, lest, as the serpent did
beguile Eve in his subtilty,
so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in the Christ;
Woman- wife H802 ish-shaw', naw-sheem'
The first form is the feminine of H376 or H582; the second form is an irregular plural; a woman (used in the same wide sense as H582).: -
[adulter]ess, each, every, female, X many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English.
We do know that the Word of God is Spirit... so please understand this is not about the female.
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
Amen to all of that!
And Molly, of course it meant death . .but so did adultery.
But spiritually, it's still death . . .spiritual death . . .as is spiritual adultery.
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
1 Corinthians 10:11;
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
good find and good point. I agree. The mind can be deceitful for sure. Of course it's part of the equation, as documented in the scriptures. But it's a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour? nah... :icon_joker:
...18
Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?
19
Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything?
20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
Just a thought (as I am undecided on this subject). But, maybe playing with minds is exactly what these verses are talking about. I mean what is psychiatry? And I speak directly of altering mood with substances, not therapy. What is drug abuse? What is manipulation? It is a form of witchcraft. I mean what is a necromancer? Does anyone really believe people can conjur up the dead? Is this merely more modernized terms for what was being said here? Don't play with the mind, and don't play with peoples pocketbooks claiming you can contact the dead, or make supernatural events happen by human power (as that is saying you are God-like). Don't manipulate others, controlling people with your mouth and behaviors.
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
good find and good point. I agree. The mind can be deceitful for sure. Of course it's part of the equation, as documented in the scriptures. But it's a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour? nah... :icon_joker:
I actually believe that is a terrific description of the mind that is enslaved to sin. Self seeking, loud, abusive, hateful, slanderous, libelous, lying etc are all descriptions of the mind which is enslaved to sin. That kind of mind can't love anyone, and hurts anything and anyone in their path.
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 08:45:18 PM
Don't manipulate others, controlling people with your mouth and behaviors.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 25, 2011, 05:31:23 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 25, 2011, 05:01:24 AM
This great 'collective unconscious' mind of man is the god of pagans, soothsayers, humanists, and those who would manipulate mankind.
:thumbsup:
And you could add a few to that list:
Hollywood
Most television
Rock and Roll
Fashion
Wall St.
Mega-churches
Most advertising
Politics
The list is practically endless.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2011, 08:38:05 PM
...18
Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?
19
Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything?
20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons
Again, just trying to look at these verses with a bit of a different eye but try this on...
What is idolotry? Placing anything or anyone above God. What were the idols they were speaking of? Images created by the human mind, statues carved by human hands....vain human imaginings. No one can drink of the Lord's cup and also be led by or in love with vain human imaginings.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2011, 08:53:45 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 08:45:18 PM
Don't manipulate others, controlling people with your mouth and behaviors.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 25, 2011, 05:31:23 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 25, 2011, 05:01:24 AM
This great 'collective unconscious' mind of man is the god of pagans, soothsayers, humanists, and those who would manipulate mankind.
:thumbsup:
And you could add a few to that list:
Hollywood
Most television
Rock and Roll
Fashion
Wall St.
Mega-churches
Most advertising
Politics
The list is practically endless.
Good stuff...didn't see that. I would 100% agree. I have heard it said this kind of behavior is considered witchcraft.
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 08:50:05 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
good find and good point. I agree. The mind can be deceitful for sure. Of course it's part of the equation, as documented in the scriptures. But it's a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour? nah... :icon_joker:
I actually believe that is a terrific description of the mind that is enslaved to sin. Self seeking, loud, abusive, hateful, slanderous, libelous, lying etc are all descriptions of the mind which is enslaved to sin. That kind of mind can't love anyone, and hurts anything and anyone in their path.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think this is what the verse is primarily describing, or that there is no external adversary as some maintain. One thing in the scrip I forgot to mention is, "roaming around"...
Again, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..
I believe it's often influenced by external factors...as Molly said earlier, that's why we're to put on armor.
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 08:55:01 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 02, 2011, 08:38:05 PM
...18
Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?
19
Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything?
20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons
Again, just trying to look at these verses with a bit of a different eye but try this on...
What is idolotry? Placing anything or anyone above God. What were the idols they were speaking of? Images created by the human mind, statues carved by human hands....vain human imaginings. No one can drink of the Lord's cup and also be led by or in love with vain human imaginings.
And I agree with you too!
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:56:47 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 08:50:05 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
good find and good point. I agree. The mind can be deceitful for sure. Of course it's part of the equation, as documented in the scriptures. But it's a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour? nah... :icon_joker:
I actually believe that is a terrific description of the mind that is enslaved to sin. Self seeking, loud, abusive, hateful, slanderous, libelous, lying etc are all descriptions of the mind which is enslaved to sin. That kind of mind can't love anyone, and hurts anything and anyone in their path.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think this is what the verse is primarily describing, or that there is no external adversary as some maintain. One thing in the scrip I forgot to mention is, "roaming around"...
Again, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..
I believe it's often influenced by external factors...as Molly said earlier, that's why we're to put on armor.
Roaming around sounds like a predator.
Seeking whom it may devour--again a predator.
Whatever this is describing, it is taking the active role of the predator.
Are we being attacked by our own minds? Wouldn't that make us insane?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
The 5 senses = The Philistines.
They ruled the five city-states (the "Philistine Pentapolis") of Gaza, Askelon, Ashdod, Ekron and Gath.
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:56:47 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 08:50:05 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
good find and good point. I agree. The mind can be deceitful for sure. Of course it's part of the equation, as documented in the scriptures. But it's a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour? nah... :icon_joker:
I actually believe that is a terrific description of the mind that is enslaved to sin. Self seeking, loud, abusive, hateful, slanderous, libelous, lying etc are all descriptions of the mind which is enslaved to sin. That kind of mind can't love anyone, and hurts anything and anyone in their path.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think this is what the verse is primarily describing, or that there is no external adversary as some maintain. One thing in the scrip I forgot to mention is, "roaming around"...
Again, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..
I hear ya Jab, and as I said I'm undecided on this subject. But, I often think we over-literalize the imagery of the Bible. I think roaming around could be looking for opportunity to harm, control, manipulate, corrupt etc. And I see this daily. "Stronger" minds preying on the weaker minds in order to obtain possessions, affirmation, opportunity or just someone to sign off on all their bull. I see this not just as an internal issue...I see it as an external force that enslaves, and abuses mankind. When you lock your doors at night, you do so in order to keep that force from coming into your home and harming your family. Some don't have the television in their home in order to do the same thing. It's tangible and intangible...it's visible and invisible...it's is truly a principality at work.
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:56:47 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 08:50:05 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
good find and good point. I agree. The mind can be deceitful for sure. Of course it's part of the equation, as documented in the scriptures. But it's a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour? nah... :icon_joker:
I actually believe that is a terrific description of the mind that is enslaved to sin. Self seeking, loud, abusive, hateful, slanderous, libelous, lying etc are all descriptions of the mind which is enslaved to sin. That kind of mind can't love anyone, and hurts anything and anyone in their path.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think this is what the verse is primarily describing, or that there is no external adversary as some maintain. One thing in the scrip I forgot to mention is, "roaming around"...
Again, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..
I believe it's often influenced by external factors...as Molly said earlier, that's why we're to put on armor.
Roaming around sounds like a predator.
Seeking whom it may devour--again a predator.
Whatever this is describing, it is taking the active role of the predator.
Are we being attacked by our own minds? Wouldn't that make us insane?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
What would you consider most of the garbage on television, in movies, on the radio?
:goodpost:
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 09:21:51 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:56:47 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 08:50:05 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
good find and good point. I agree. The mind can be deceitful for sure. Of course it's part of the equation, as documented in the scriptures. But it's a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour? nah... :icon_joker:
I actually believe that is a terrific description of the mind that is enslaved to sin. Self seeking, loud, abusive, hateful, slanderous, libelous, lying etc are all descriptions of the mind which is enslaved to sin. That kind of mind can't love anyone, and hurts anything and anyone in their path.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think this is what the verse is primarily describing, or that there is no external adversary as some maintain. One thing in the scrip I forgot to mention is, "roaming around"...
Again, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..
I hear ya Jab, and as I said I'm undecided on this subject. But, I often think we over-literalize the imagery of the Bible. I think roaming around could be looking for opportunity to harm, control, manipulate, corrupt etc. And I see this daily. "Stronger" minds preying on the weaker minds in order to obtain possessions, affirmation, opportunity or just someone to sign off on all their bull. I see this not just as an internal issue...I see it as an external force that enslaves, and abuses mankind. When you lock your doors at night, you do so in order to keep that force from coming into your home and harming your family. Some don't have the television in their home in order to do the same thing. It's tangible and intangible...it's visible and invisible...it's is truly a principality at work.
:goodpost:
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Are we being attacked by our own minds?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
I believe it's both; the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man",
and outside influences of the adversary.
A robber with a gun doesn't just
represent evil. He can really shoot you.
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 09:30:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Are we being attacked by our own minds?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
I believe it's both; the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.
A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil. He can really shoot you.
I certainly agree with that last part. We know some people controlled by the carnal mind abandoned to depravity and/or subject to addiction won't hestitate to come into your home and steal, kill and destroy. And looking at this from both sides I don't feel that Scripture is 100% clear one way or the other on the subject. I believe you can make a case for both...or merely the accumulative effect/force of the carnal mind in society.
Is your mind natural? Or spiritual? Maybe if we start there this would be easier to digest. Paul says my mind is at enmity against God . . .but he adds a little more to it that just that.
Romans 8
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Where does temptation begin? Does it not first start "in your mind"? It does not have the capacity to comprehend spiritual truth on it's own strength. Everything is based on alignment . . .flesh over spirit leads to death . .. spirit over flesh leads to life both here and here after.
QuoteAgain, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..
of course your entitled to disagree James ~The Roar- Ing means the VOICE,
Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Job 4:9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
Job 4:10 The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken.
Job 4:11 The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me [with]
their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.
Likened to very whispered Voice of the Serpen , the seed which EVE birthed~ , the very Serpent who was Cursed to CRAWL upon His Belly[ mind] in the Dust, for he shall consume DUST all days of HIS LIFE~ to fed By carnal Reasoning~as is the Apple[ KNOWLEDGE] from the TREE~## we do Not feed from that TREE# we feed from HIS Tree~ # so Be aware and Vigilent to whos VOICE you HEAR~
The sheild of Faith is the PROTECTION from Spears[ arrows] #but here we go again More metaphors~~ You may find Arrows Speard are words~ His sheild protects us from serpents Lies~
Our Lord Killed By the SPEAR [ LIES]
Stan the man is about as Real come entity as the Tooth fairy IMO~
Shalom~
Quote from: Taffy on November 02, 2011, 10:30:44 PM
QuoteAgain, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..
of course your entitled to disagree James ~The Roar- Ing means the VOICE,
Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Job 4:9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
Job 4:10 The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken.
Job 4:11 The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.
Likened to very whispered Voice of the Serpen , the seed which EVE birthed~ , the very Serpent who was Cursed to CRAWL upon His Belly[ mind] in the Dust, for he shall consume DUST all days of HIS LIFE~ to fed By carnal Reasoning~as is the Apple[ KNOWLEDGE] from the TREE~## we do Not feed from that TREE# we feed from HIS Tree~ # so Be aware and Vigilent to whos VOICE you HEAR~
The sheild of Faith is the PROTECTION from Spears[ arrows] #but here we go again More metaphors~~ You may find Arrows Speard are words~ His sheild protects us from serpents Lies~
Our Lord Killed By the SPEAR [ LIES]
Stan the man is about as Real come entity as the Tooth fairy IMO~
Shalom~
Yes, I do disagree. I don't believe the adversary is just the mind. The mind plays a huge role, but that ain't all there is to it, IMO. I don't believe it was Job's mind (or anyone else's) which approached God to visit calamity on Job. I don't believe that at all.
I also don't believe satan is a man. I believe it is an entity created by God to use as His tool to accomplish His purposes.
Now, the tooth fairy? hmmm...left some money under my pillow once.
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 12:22:35 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 02, 2011, 10:30:44 PM
QuoteAgain, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..
of course your entitled to disagree James ~The Roar- Ing means the VOICE,
Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Job 4:9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
Job 4:10 The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken.
Job 4:11 The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.
Likened to very whispered Voice of the Serpen , the seed which EVE birthed~ , the very Serpent who was Cursed to CRAWL upon His Belly[ mind] in the Dust, for he shall consume DUST all days of HIS LIFE~ to fed By carnal Reasoning~as is the Apple[ KNOWLEDGE] from the TREE~## we do Not feed from that TREE# we feed from HIS Tree~ # so Be aware and Vigilent to whos VOICE you HEAR~
The sheild of Faith is the PROTECTION from Spears[ arrows] #but here we go again More metaphors~~ You may find Arrows Speard are words~ His sheild protects us from serpents Lies~
Our Lord Killed By the SPEAR [ LIES]
Stan the man is about as Real come entity as the Tooth fairy IMO~
Shalom~
Yes, I do disagree. I don't believe the adversary is just the mind. The mind plays a huge role, but that ain't all there is to it, IMO. I don't believe it was Job's mind (or anyone else's) which approached God to visit calamity on Job. I don't believe that at all.
I also don't believe satan is a man.
Now, the tooth fairy? hmmm...left some money under my pillow once.
so the ROAMING lLION is a Literal LION who goes about EATING PEOPLE~~~ do you not cross check how scrpture WORKS? or do you take Just One verse Come MANS hear says and picture this entity who Now is a LION not a Dragon , or serpent or Satan or the devil or even Pharoah AS LITERAL?]] now wonder folk believe in Dantes Hell~
OH AND it was Probably ya Mum who was the Fairy you believed~
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 09:45:06 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 09:30:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Are we being attacked by our own minds?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
I believe it's both; the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.
A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil. He can really shoot you.
I certainly agree with that last part. We know some people controlled by the carnal mind abandoned to depravity and/or subject to addiction won't hestitate to come into your home and steal, kill and destroy. And looking at this from both sides I don't feel that Scripture is 100% clear one way or the other on the subject. I believe you can make a case for both...or merely the accumulative effect/force of the carnal mind in society.
I could almost go there at times too Shawn re: "making a case for both". But IMO, there are places in scripture where "the mind" as the adversary just doesn't work. It may sound like a nice symbolic assertion, but again, scriptures as satan approaching God to test Job, and that being someone's "mind" just doesn't ring true to me. I believe it's both..we're influenced from without, and the "workings" of it are within. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 12:30:01 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 09:45:06 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 09:30:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Are we being attacked by our own minds?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
I believe it's both; the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.
A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil. He can really shoot you.
I certainly agree with that last part. We know some people controlled by the carnal mind abandoned to depravity and/or subject to addiction won't hestitate to come into your home and steal, kill and destroy. And looking at this from both sides I don't feel that Scripture is 100% clear one way or the other on the subject. I believe you can make a case for both...or merely the accumulative effect/force of the carnal mind in society.
I could almost go there at times too Shawn re: "making a case for both". But IMO, there are places in scripture where "the mind" as the adversary just doesn't work. It may sound like a nice symbolic assertion, but again, scriptures as satan approaching God to test Job, and that being someone's "mind" just doesn't ring true to me. I believe it's both..we're influenced from without, and the "workings" of it are within. :2c:
please dont kep us In suspense James~
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 12:29:25 AM
so the ROAMING lLION is a Literal LION who goes about EATING PEOPLE~~~ do you not cross check how scrpture WORKS? or do you take Just One verse Come MANS hear says and picture this entity who Now is a LION not a Dragon , or serpent or Satan or the devil or even Pharoah AS LITERAL?]] now wonder folk believe in Dantes Hell~
OH AND it was Probably ya Mum who was the Fairy you believed~ :laughing7:
Back up a second. Is this how this works? When someone makes a case, either direction, do we just hear what we want to hear?
Do you honestly believe I believe the roaring lion is a real lion? Also, the rest of what you've written here Taffy is nowhere close to what I either said or believe. Please don't jump to such extreme conclusions and maybe we can communicate.
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 12:30:58 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 12:30:01 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 09:45:06 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 09:30:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Are we being attacked by our own minds?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
I believe it's both; the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.
A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil. He can really shoot you.
I certainly agree with that last part. We know some people controlled by the carnal mind abandoned to depravity and/or subject to addiction won't hestitate to come into your home and steal, kill and destroy. And looking at this from both sides I don't feel that Scripture is 100% clear one way or the other on the subject. I believe you can make a case for both...or merely the accumulative effect/force of the carnal mind in society.
I could almost go there at times too Shawn re: "making a case for both". But IMO, there are places in scripture where "the mind" as the adversary just doesn't work. It may sound like a nice symbolic assertion, but again, scriptures as satan approaching God to test Job, and that being someone's "mind" just doesn't ring true to me. I believe it's both..we're influenced from without, and the "workings" of it are within. :2c:
please dont kep us In suspense James~
see above
The Lord is the LION of Judah~~ is he a LION TOO~
HE the Lion whos Nature is to TEAR the Flesh from MEN[ CARNAL MIND] do you Know How a LION kills man?# It normally Swipes with its PALM decapitating the """HEAD" of its Prey~~~
:icon_flower:
Also, I'll just let you know. Questioning about whether I cross-check scripture or just pull one verse is offensive.
Seems to be a recent pattern. Come on, back off and think about how what you're saying. Please.
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 12:34:14 AM
Also, I'll just let you know. Questioning about whether I cross-check scripture or just pull one verse is offensive.
Seems to be a recent pattern. Come on, back off and think about how what you're saying. Please.
I was asking James~ as you totally ignored the Voice after posting those scriptures~
1Sa 17:37 David said moreover, The LORD that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the LORD be with thee. :icon_flower:
1Sa 17:36 Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.
- T~
Psa 7:1 A psalm of David, which he sang to the LORD concerning Cush of the tribe of Benjamin. I come to you for protection, O LORD my God. Save me from my persecutors—rescue me!
Psa 7:2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending [it] in pieces, while [there is] none to deliver ~ They\he ?~~whos THEY ?these are MEN James~ :icon_flower:
Beware of the seed[ word\mouth\voice]~ like a Roaring LION , who comes to deceive you}Do Not let your MIND be fed with LIES~cometh the WORDS of Men in their carnal state~be the simples James, come the Voice of the Lion of men~
'seizures' these evil spirit 'tools' have capacity to manipulate and instill thoughts in the brain of man.....they scramble thoughts to insanity and grand mal
seizures.. They also manipulate nerve endings,sight,hearing...all things natural that God created the terrestorial body to expierence..they can manipulate.
Jesus never suffered a seizure/considering himself equal to God. Satan considers himself a god sitting in the temple of God[your body.]
unlawful 'seizures' of man's body...is the sin that is evident in the temple of God, the abomination.
and while we may not partake of the table of God and demons.....He most certainly does prepare us a table in the presence of our enemies.
Familiar spirits are of the family of liars...they can and do 'forsee' often financially lucrative...but beware 'the liar' is there,also. partial truths mixed with
lies.
Do not be deceived that they are a mere 'figment' of an imagination,although the 'maji' nation is associated with them. They can take the appearance of any form they
want, night terrors,sirens...just as the Holy spirit can show you things from God..they do. From osours, to sense of touch,, to visions.. It's spirit people.
THERE IS HOLY SPIRIT AND THERE IS EVIL SPIRIT...IF NOT,JESUS WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU OTHERWISE. HEED YOUR SHEPHERD!!
They provide the 'evil' contrast to His good.He designed them just for this purpose. If the blind lead the blind they both fall in a pit....
FOLLOW YOUR SHEPHERD!!
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 09:23:01 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:56:47 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 02, 2011, 08:50:05 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do
So all these people are playing with their own minds?
good find and good point. I agree. The mind can be deceitful for sure. Of course it's part of the equation, as documented in the scriptures. But it's a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour? nah... :icon_joker:
I actually believe that is a terrific description of the mind that is enslaved to sin. Self seeking, loud, abusive, hateful, slanderous, libelous, lying etc are all descriptions of the mind which is enslaved to sin. That kind of mind can't love anyone, and hurts anything and anyone in their path.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think this is what the verse is primarily describing, or that there is no external adversary as some maintain. One thing in the scrip I forgot to mention is, "roaming around"...
Again, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..
I believe it's often influenced by external factors...as Molly said earlier, that's why we're to put on armor.
Roaming around sounds like a predator.
Seeking whom it may devour--again a predator.
Whatever this is describing, it is taking the active role of the predator.
Are we being attacked by our own minds? Wouldn't that make us insane?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
What would you consider most of the garbage on television, in movies, on the radio?
The watcher and the the listener.
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:43 AM
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)
I consider that a foolish statement. To say the the devil tricked us is to say that the Lord and Creator was duped. How silly.
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 09:30:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Are we being attacked by our own minds?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
I believe it's both; the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.
A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil. He can really shoot you.
1Co 2:16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--
we have the mind of Christ."the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ]" are you saying the mind of Christ is two fold and is weak in part?
Amen sheila. I agree. I believe in Spiritual things, and I believe in "spiritualizing" things - to the point that we haven't gone to an extreme - EITHER DIRECTION - and forsake sound doctrine. Great thoughts on following the shepherd. amen.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2011, 06:36:42 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 09:30:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Are we being attacked by our own minds?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
I believe it's both; the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.
A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil. He can really shoot you.
1Co 2:16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.
"the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ]" are you saying the mind of Christ is two fold and is weak in part?
no, that's not what I'm saying. Others can see it differently of course, but what I'm suggesting is, and you think about it and pray about it, I could be wrong - we do have the mind of Christ. But we also still have the fleshly nature (the carnal mind, more "in control" when not walking in the Spirit, less "in control" when we are walking according to the Spirit); the carnal part of us that battles against the spiritual, Godly part of us. I believe that's what Paul was experiencing when he talked about the things he would do he couldn't, and vice versa. I tend to believe the accurate translation is "all things becoming new". I believe we're in process, and learning to walk after the Spirit. No, that doesn't divide the mind of Christ. It's not His mind that's divided. It's ours. Admission; I mess up over and over, day after day, in way or another. Missing the mark, needing to love more, needing to be less offended (sorry), needing to share the Good news more and dwelling less on things of this life. Haven't you seen anyone who claims to be totally led by the Spirit, totally hearing His voice, yet in the course of things they make mistakes? Say things that aren't accurate? Even sin? Well, IMO, that's NOT the mind of Christ or the Spirit at work, that's the carnal part of us that's thinking, talking, behaving at that moment. I believe it's why Paul talks about pursuing Godliness, Jesus said seek the Kingdom, draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you, etc. If we were in totality the mind of Christ, then IMO, none of those counsels would be needed.
Now, what I'm sharing is
how I understand it. Just like everyone else on here, I'm being shaped as I go, learning little by little. I encourage us all to share in that manner - "as I understand". Thanks, and blessings.
Demons do not exist any more than gods do, being only the products of the psychic activity of man.
--Sigmund Freud
:icon_joker:
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:54:14 AM
Demons do not exist any more than gods do, being only the products of the psychic activity of man.
--Sigmund Freud
:icon_joker:
lol
I have a question for those who do believe satan etc. is just our mind; first of all, that's how you understand it, I see it differently, and hopefully that's what we're doing here - discussing and attempting to learn of each other (mostly from the Lord) and not insulting or arguing (let it be so for me). My honest question is, what is your understanding of Job's situation, when God was approached and asked for permission to buffet him? Did someone's mind approach God, and God gave that person's mind the authority to destroy everything he had in a day? And someone's mind was able to perform all that carnage? (It sounds like Job was pretty much sitting in one place that day.) Or do you have some other understanding of that?
I personally believe it was the spiritual entity God created as His tool to do His purposes that approached God. Again, I'll say it again...I believe the mind has a lot to do with our being, and is a significant part of our warfare. But I believe there's more to it than that. :2c:
"...and I believe in "spiritualizing" things " Jabcat I DO NOT believe in "spiritualizing" things. I believe that is one of the greatest errors in christian understanding.
maybe we're sort of talking about 2 different things. What I mean by that is, I'll use an earlier example. Let's say there's a fellow standing there with a gun wanting to harm you. By "spiritualizing" it, I mean, seeing the spiritual implications, i.e., "that man represents evil" or "he's evil personified". But what I'm trying to say is, I personally believe although there are symbolic or spiritual implications that can be drawn from the man and the situation, that doesn't make the man not really be a man with a real gun that could blow your real head off.
Does that help explain what I mean by that? I may actually agree with you on that in some ways, in that again, I don't think we should go too far one way or the other, and therefor be flirting with either being so "literal" or so "out there" symbolically, that we actually fail to rightly divide or miss the sound doctrine. If there's a guy standing there with a gun, I certainly want to get all the implications out of it I'm supposed to, you know, grow from it, learn about my fear or putting myself in bad situations or understand better how God works and evil works.....but I also want to get out of his way. :)
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 06:53:42 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2011, 06:36:42 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 02, 2011, 09:30:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 02, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Are we being attacked by our own minds?
Or are we being attacked through our minds?
I believe it's both; the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.
A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil. He can really shoot you.
1Co 2:16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.
"the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ]" are you saying the mind of Christ is two fold and is weak in part?
no, that's not what I'm saying. Others can see it differently of course, but hopefully this can be discussed rationally and pleasantly from now on, and thanks micah, I believe you will. what I'm suggesting is, and you think about it and pray about it, I could be wrong - we do have the mind of Christ. But we also still have the fleshly nature (the carnal mind, more "in control" when not walking in the Spirit, less "in control" when we are walking according to the Spirit); the carnal part of us that battles against the spiritual, Godly part of us. I believe that's what Paul was experiencing when he talked about the things he would do he couldn't, and vice versa. I tend to believe the accurate translation is "all things becoming new". I believe we're in process, and learning to walk after the Spirit. No, that doesn't divide the mind of Christ. It's not His mind that's divided. It's ours. Admission; I mess up over and over, day after day, in way or another. Missing the mark, needing to love more, needing to be less offended (sorry), needing to share the Good news more and dwelling less on things of this life. Haven't you seen anyone who claims to be totally led by the Spirit, totally hearing His voice, yet in the course of things they make mistakes? Say things that aren't accurate? Even sin? Well, IMO, that's NOT the mind of Christ or the Spirit at work, that's the carnal part of us that's thinking, talking, behaving at that moment. I believe it's why Paul talks about pursuing Godliness, Jesus said seek the Kingdom, draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you, etc. If we were in totality the mind of Christ, then IMO, none of those counsels would be needed.
Now, what I'm sharing is how I understand it. Just like everyone else on here, I'm being shaped as I go, learning little by little. I encourage us all to share in that manner - "as I understand". Thanks, and blessings.
Then of a truth if what you say is true, then one does not have the mind of Christ, one only says one has the mind of Christ to fit in. Either it is the mind of Christ at work or it is what one would like to be the mind of Christ at work. The mind of Christ is able to answer satan(adversary) when the enemy comes forth to do what the enemies purpose is, to answer just as Jesus did when He was tempted in the wilderness. I have reasoned and learned that I have said with boldness that I have the mind of Christ, but have been humiliated time and again, that I do not have the mind of Christ. Yes we do have a long way to go. But we press on, for He loves us and it His love that will in His time, bring those hearing souls to that level of His mind.
micah, another thought on the mind of Christ and our flesh/carnal mind;
brother, if you've been spiritually reborn through being given faith to believe on Jesus as your Savior, then IMO you do have the mind of Christ. I believe we just still have the "natural", or flesh etc. that battles it.
I doubt it was an accident :), but I saw this post just now from Nathan a long time ago, and I clipped a bit of it here. I think it fits very well here;
Here's the post;
"For me, because I am both flesh and spirit, I see that in the spirit, sin can not enter. So when I walk in the spirit, sin is not the topic for emphasis. It's lost it's power over me. It still exists in the realm of the flesh, but for those who pass from flesh to spirit inwardly even while they're in the flesh outwardly, they can live free from the power of sin both inwardly and outwardly.
But as I walk "in" the flesh, then sin abounds. I become consumed by it because I don't "see" through God's eyes. It's not that my flesh becomes immune to carnal things. It's more that the power of carnality has no hold on me so as I mature more and more in Christ, the power of sin has less and less affect.
Spiritually I am perfect... there will stil be days where my flesh not only is tempted, but it willingly sins . . .which remember, simply means I miss the mark . . . What is the mark?? Perhaps it's the will of God for my life "today"? When I walk in the flesh, I step out of his will . . .but even when I step out of his will, I don't have the power to alter his plan. Redemption is already at work in every aspect of my life." - Nathan
I wonder you should ask me whether it is essential to keep the patient in ignorance of your own existence. That question, at least for the present phase of the struggle, has been answered for us by the High Command. Our policy, for the moment, is to conceal ourselves. Of course this has not always been so. We are really faced with a cruel dilemma. When the humans disbelieve in our existence we lose all the pleasing results of direct terrorism, and we make no magicians. On the other hand, when they believe in us, we cannot make them materialists and sceptics.
At least, not yet. I have great hopes that we shall learn in due time how to emotionalise and mythologise their science to such an extent that what is, in effect. a belief in us (though not under that name) will creep in while the human mind remains closed to belief in the Enemy. The "Life Force," the worship of sex, and some aspects of Psychoanalysis may here prove useful. If once we can produce our perfect work—the Materialist Magician, the man, not using, but veritably worshipping, what he vaguely calls "Forces" while denying the existence of "spirits"—then the end of the war will be in sight. But in the meantime we must obey our orders. I do not think you will have much difficulty in keeping the patient in the dark. The fact that "devils" are predominantly comic figures in the modern imagination will help you. If any faint suspicion of your existence begins to arise in his mind, suggest to him a picture of something in red tights, and persuade him that since he cannot believe in that (it is an old textbook method of confusing them) he therefore cannot believe in you.
--C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 07:18:20 AM
maybe we're sort of talking about 2 different things. What I mean by that is, I'll use an earlier example. Let's say there's a fellow standing there with a gun wanting to harm you. By "spiritualizing" it, I mean, seeing the spiritual implications, i.e., "that man represents evil" or "he's evil personified". But what I'm trying to say is, I personally believe although there are symbolic or spiritual implications that can be drawn from the man and the situation, that doesn't make the man not really be a man with a real gun that could blow your real head off.
Does that help explain what I mean by that? I may actually agree with you on that in some ways, in that again, I don't think we should go too far one way or the other, and therefor be flirting with either being so "literal" or so "out there" symbolically, that we actually fail to rightly divide or miss the sound doctrine. If there's a guy standing there with a gun, I certainly want to get all the implications out of it I'm supposed to, you know, grow from it, learn about my fear or putting myself in bad situations or understand better how God works and evil works.....but I also want to get out of his way. :)
Spiritualizing is some thing that David Copperfield does. If there is a man standing front of me with a gun, should no one or nothing interferes, I will either get shot or maybe killed or....My point is whether we want to accept it, believe it, or toss it should you be a believer in Jesus Christ by His Grace and by His faith, He will either make His presence known as His will or He will not. I may not have said that properly, but Jesus Christ is either our armor, or He is not.
I do not accept the sayings of C. S. Lewis no matter how godly they may seem.
To us a human is primarily food; our aim is the absorption of its will into ours, the increase of our own area of selfhood at its expense. But the obedience which the Enemy demands of men is quite a different thing. One must face the fact that all the talk about His love for men, and His service being perfect freedom, is not (as one would gladly believe) mere propaganda, but an appalling truth. He really does want to fill the universe with a lot of loathsome little replicas of Himself –creatures whose life, on its miniature scale, will be qualitatively like His own, not because he has absorbed them but because their wills freely conform to His. We want cattle who can finally become food; He wants servants who can finally become sons. We want to suck in, He wants to give out. We are empty and would be filled; He is full and flows over. Our war aim is a world in which Our Father Below has drawn all other beings into himself; the Enemy wants a world full of beings united to Him, but still distinct.-
--C.S. Lewis, Screwtape Letters
C.S Lewis.....I'd rather read D.L Moody or Charles Spurgeon......C.S. Lewis was a novelist on the same level as L. Ron Hubbard.
ok, ok. sheesh. :icon_king:
My brethren, let me say, be like Christ at all times. Imitate him in "public." Most of us live in some sort of public capacity—many of us are called to work before our fellow-men every day. We are watched; our words are caught; our lives are examined—taken to pieces. The eagle-eyed, argus-eyed world observes everything we do, and sharp critics are upon us. Let us live the life of Christ in public. Let us take care that we exhibit our Master, and not ourselves—so that we can say, "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me."
—Charles Spurgeon
:laughing7: pretty good words there from our Brother Spurgeon.
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 09:07:06 AM
:laughing7: pretty good words there from our Brother Spurgeon.
yeah that was a good one, but probably off topic lol.
I still maintain the Screwtape Letters is a brilliant book, though, if you want to understand how Satan works in our lives [even if Micah doesn't like Lewis].
Well, to bring this back "on" topic, what is a parable if it is not a natural story with a SPIRITUAL meaning?
If things aren't to be seen as "spiritualized" (not sure I even like that term either, really) when why are we even called to walk in the spirit in the first place?
If things "weren't" spritualized by Jesus himself, then why were the disciples complaining about it just as some do here? This is nothing new. It may be frustrating to some, but it's nothing new. When the deep calls to the deep, there's a reason for that. When finite minds encounter infinity, things get shaken up. Which would we rather see happen? Would we rather have infinity be conformed to our limitations? Or, would we rather have our limitations expanded to be able to grow into infinity?
In Galations, Paul refers to Isaac being born into freedom and Ishmael being born under bondage . . . was he not also "spiritualizing"?
Isn't it a "good" thing to be told that there's so much more to Scripture . . .and WAY more to God than just what meets the eye???
God talks to us in the natural first, and if we do not believe the natural exists, then there is no foundation to stand on.
I agree Nathan that the Bible has many hidden meanings, even in the words themselves, which is why I like to look at the words.
As we keep saying, it is a very rich book.
Paul does say we can look at the hidden meaning of this story, this history, through allegory, --one thing is standing for something else: hagar for the children in bondage under the law and Sarah for the children of the promise, born to freedom.
But, this doesn't mean there was no real Ismael and no real Isaac. For any of this to work, you have to believe these are real historical characters, that Sarah really did give birth at the age of 90--otherwise, God's promises mean nothing, and miracles don't exist. Otherwise, it's just a fairy tale with a good moral.
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 03:42:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:43 AM
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)
I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd] :icon_flower:
I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.
The carnal mind of man is only referred to twice in the whole Bible.
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 04:03:27 PM
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 03:42:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:43 AM
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)
I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd] :icon_flower:
I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.
Many things are Hidden Molly# "I will open a Dark saying[ parable] upon a Harp~ Shalom
Young's Literal Translation:
And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, 'Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, 'From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it...
So, the Adversary must be pretty tired from walking all over creation, or does he sleep too?
Is he immortal?
Does he have flesh and blood?
If he is spirit, why does he walk?
Can he only affect one person at a time?
What are his motives?
Is he angry with man; or God?
Why does he choose to walk?
Beloved, God's spirit walks in man upon the earth,too.
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 04:06:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 04:03:27 PM
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 03:42:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:43 AM
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)
I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd] :icon_flower:
I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.
Many things are Hidden Molly# "I will open a Dark saying[ parable] upon a Harp~ Shalom
Yes but that doesn't mean I can just make stuff up and insist that others believe it's true because it's 'hidden'.
The argument has to stand and fall on its own merit. How do you read this passage?
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1
Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council of God with the other sons of God? Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies? I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God. So how does that work?
So the carnal mind of man is one of the sons of God?
Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:12:24 PM
Beloved, God's spirit walks in man upon the earth,too.
So, the adversary is within man?
Every man, at the exact same time?
He is omnipresent, as the Lord?
He goes to and fro...in the manner of spirit[no one knows where he come from or where he goes] ex..entered Judas to fascilitate Christ's death...spoke through Peter
in opposition to God's will for Christ. Like Legion said 'we are many'
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 04:15:24 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:12:24 PM
Beloved, God's spirit walks in man upon the earth,too.
So, the adversary is within man?
Every man, at the exact same time?
He is omnipresent, as the Lord?
What did Jesus say?
If you sweep the house clean,[implied: and leave it empty,] 7 times the number of demons will move in.
24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dtry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
--Luke 11
Are demons, then, under the rule of the adversary or do they act independently?
How do they know when and where to "move in?"
Is God perpetually saying:
Have you considered my servant Dave?
Have you considered my servant Molly?
Have you considered my servant Sheila?
...ad infinitum?
.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control.... as God's Holy spirit cause us to will and to do
His good pleasure...so,too, the contrary spirit incites against these things.
does the axe exalt its self against He that weilds it? Not for long[he shows himself as god in the temple,exalting himself against the prince of the hosts]
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:43 AM
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)
You can also make a clever little statement about hell in the same regard. Doesn't validate it as truth.
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 07:01:04 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:54:14 AM
Demons do not exist any more than gods do, being only the products of the psychic activity of man.
--Sigmund Freud
:icon_joker:
lol
I have a question for those who do believe satan etc. is just our mind; first of all, that's how you understand it, I see it differently, and hopefully that's what we're doing here - discussing and attempting to learn of each other (mostly from the Lord) and not insulting or arguing (let it be so for me). My honest question is, what is your understanding of Job's situation, when God was approached and asked for permission to buffet him? Did someone's mind approach God, and God gave that person's mind the authority to destroy everything he had in a day? And someone's mind was able to perform all that carnage? (It sounds like Job was pretty much sitting in one place that day.) Or do you have some other understanding of that?
I personally believe it was the spiritual entity God created as His tool to do His purposes that approached God. Again, I'll say it again...I believe the mind has a lot to do with our being, and is a significant part of our warfare. But I believe there's more to it than that. :2c:
When looking at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus does that mean there is a literal hell? Do you take the story of Job as a literal event or a parable? Or maybe a parable written within a literal event?
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 04:15:24 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:12:24 PM
Beloved, God's spirit walks in man upon the earth,too.
So, the adversary is within man?
Every man, at the exact same time?
He is omnipresent, as the Lord?
Great point.
I see some suggestions that even Christians can be under the influence of this satanic being. So, the temple of the Holy Spirit can be inhabited by both Christ and another spiritual entity which is evil. This has never made sense to me.
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 04:12:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 04:06:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 04:03:27 PM
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 03:42:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:43 AM
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)
I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd] :icon_flower:
I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.
Many things are Hidden Molly# "I will open a Dark saying[ parable] upon a Harp~ Shalom
Yes but that doesn't mean I can just make stuff up and insist that others believe it's true because it's 'hidden'.
The argument has to stand and fall on its own merit. How do you read this passage?
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1
Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council of God with the other sons of God? Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies? I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God. So how does that work?
So the carnal mind of man is one of the sons of God?
Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?
Why can't this be personification? Should we dismiss the parable of the rich man and Lazarus because it has hell fire notions in it?
Quote from: shawn on November 03, 2011, 04:54:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 04:12:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 04:06:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 04:03:27 PM
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 03:42:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:43 AM
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)
I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd] :icon_flower:
I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.
Many things are Hidden Molly# "I will open a Dark saying[ parable] upon a Harp~ Shalom
Yes but that doesn't mean I can just make stuff up and insist that others believe it's true because it's 'hidden'.
The argument has to stand and fall on its own merit. How do you read this passage?
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1
Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council of God with the other sons of God? Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies? I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God. So how does that work?
So the carnal mind of man is one of the sons of God?
Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?
Why can't this be personification? Should we dismiss the parable of the rich man and Lazarus because it has hell fire notions in it?
Jesus talked in parables and he admitted he was talking in parables and he told us why.
But there's no reason to believe the Book of Job is a parable, unless you think the whole Bible is a parable, which leads to other problems.
And, if this section on Satan is a parable, what does it mean from that point of view. Or even a metaphor. No one has answered my questions yet.
Probably because these questions cannot be answered with any other point of view than Satan is a real spirit being.
But there's no reason to believe the Book of Job is a parable, unless you think the whole Bible is a parable, which leads to other problems.
the Bible is pretty much a parable~ so Molly Just because YOU say Job isnt parbolic# doesnt make it so~ as Beloved pointed out about Satan WALKING to and fro etc~believe what you will~ sFORthose whove yet to be enlightened to UR, Many still seing Hell as some Literal Burning Pit~#I see the lord uses the Natural to explain the spiritual~ Jonahs a parable too ##The belly of the Fish# et all## speaks again on another level~but we dont READ Jonah is a Parable do we~
I am sniffing a bit of arrogance from some of these posts. I hope we can truly discuss these kinds of things without being abrasive.
If (and I truly mean if) Job is a parable (and honestly I don't know but also don't know why you assume it's historically accurate) then I can see this being a statement on how God uses the carnal mind of man to truly sift him like wheat. Again wheat from chaff principle. He uses the carnal mind of man to strengthen faith, and bring about spiritual maturity.
QuoteI can see this being a statement on how God uses the carnal mind of man to truly sift him like wheat. Again wheat from chaff principle. He uses the carnal mind of man to strengthen faith, and bring about spiritual maturity.
:icon_flower:
Hi Shawn# as we are told# each of Us need to be convicted in our mind~ if some feels trongly, theres no problem~ :HeartThrob:
the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is the folly of not being rich towards God...storing up treasure in heaven...in this life.
the rich man live a materialistic physical life,void of spiritual things. the thirst he suffered was for the waters of eternal life in his now pathetic condition.
Lazarus portrayed those with treasure in heaven..who had put spiritual considerations as priority in their lives. The bosom position is just that Lazarus
realized the love and cherishing of God for him,and his hope of wonderful blessings to come at his death of physical body. The rich man was
already spiritually dead..then physically died. Lazarus was spiritually alive and suffered in flesh due to it.
when you seek after the material things in this world,and forsake the greater treasures of the spiritual Kingdom of heaven...you loose out.
fleshly oriented or spiritually oriented..physical .death...a blessing or torment? depends on your perspective
Further light..Rich man and Lazaras......satan become rich man'all kingdoms on earth are mine' judgement unto LOF without hope of waters of eternal life
to quench his condition. Lazarus,poor afflicted mankind,robbed of dominion of earth,suffers penalty in this life only..given eternal life.
surely the chaff is the physical life[flesh counts for nothing] wheat the spiritual...then again...there are 'WEEDS" to consider
Still no one will answer my questions. :sigh:
Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council of God with the other sons of God? Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies? I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God. So how does that work?
Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?
Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 05:44:25 PM
Hi Shawn# as we are told# each of Us need to be convicted in our mind~ if some feels trongly, theres no problem~ :HeartThrob:
And I agree Taffy. I probably see this very differently than most...but I don't believe that we are all supposed to think alike on these subjects. I truly believe God likes the discourse and our seeking.
I do believe that we should be mindful of our egos at all times. Before I post, I have to ask myself why am I posting. If I posted everytime I wanted to, I would produce much natural ramblings driven
by my ego. So, when I caution other believers, I also speak to myself.
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:05 PM
Still no one will answer my questions. :sigh:
Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council of God with the other sons of God? Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies? I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God. So how does that work?
Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?
Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?
Yes, I can see personification and symbolism in all of that...and haven't really given it careful consideration. I really have never looked at Job from this angle, but would like to do so. But, to suggest that we would want to dismiss a book of the Bible because it does't "fit a theory" is insulting. This is the kind of language I caution against.
When our spirit battles the carnal mind...what is that? When temptation hits you and your spirit puts up guard...there is an inward conversation in the temple of the Holy Spirit. Is this not the carnal mind meeting with the council of God? I don't know...but I can certainly see it. As for "following God's orders"...I believe God can put limitations to the destruction he allows in a believers life. I know addiction took me to the brink of death...it left me with very little...no family life...no relationship with God...financial issues...licensing issues...depression...despair...sores...physical ailments. My carnal leadings had destroyed my life. But, from there I cried out to God...and He heard my cries. Do I believe my carnal mind was constrained by God? Yes...I believe he put some limits on the amount of destruction. Did God repair...and even give me more than I had before addiction...oh yes! I can so see the symbolism of this story. I believe using the book of Job to support the notion of a fallen angel satan is like using the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to "prove" there is a hell.
Quote from: shawn on November 03, 2011, 06:33:13 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:05 PM
Still no one will answer my questions. :sigh:
Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council of God with the other sons of God? Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies? I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God. So how does that work?
Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?
Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?
Yes, I can see personification and symbolism in all of that...and haven't really given it careful consideration. I really have never looked at Job from this angle, but would like to do so. But, to suggest that we would want to dismiss a book of the Bible because it does't "fit a theory" is insulting. This is the kind of language I caution against.
When our spirit battles the carnal mind...what is that? When temptation hits you and your spirit puts up guard...there is an inward conversation in the temple of the Holy Spirit. Is this not the carnal mind meeting with the council of God? I don't know...but I can certainly see it. As for "following God's orders"...I believe God can put limitations to the destruction he allows in a believers life. I know addiction took me to the brink of death...it left me with very little...no family life...no relationship with God...financial issues...licensing issues...depression...despair...sores...physical ailments. My carnal leadings had destroyed my life. But, from there I cried out to God...and He heard my cries. Do I believe my carnal mind was constrained by God? Yes...I believe he put some limits on the amount of destruction. Did God repair...and even give me more than I had before addiction...oh yes! I can so see the symbolism of this story. I believe using the book of Job to support the notion of a fallen angel satan is like using the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to "prove" there is a hell.
Ok, can you answer the other questions?
Job is the book that convinced me Satan is a REAL spirit being, back in the day when I was trying to figure this stuff out.
So, I would really like to have my questions answered by those who say Satan is the carnal mind.
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 05:45:23 PM
the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is the folly of not being rich towards God...storing up treasure in heaven...in this life.
the rich man live a materialistic physical life,void of spiritual things. the thirst he suffered was for the waters of eternal life in his now pathetic condition.
Lazarus portrayed those with treasure in heaven..who had put spiritual considerations as priority in their lives. The bosom position is just that Lazarus
realized the love and cherishing of God for him,and his hope of wonderful blessings to come at his death of physical body. The rich man was
already spiritually dead..then physically died. Lazarus was spiritually alive and suffered in flesh due to it.
when you seek after the material things in this world,and forsake the greater treasures of the spiritual Kingdom of heaven...you loose out.
fleshly oriented or spiritually oriented..physical .death...a blessing or torment? depends on your perspective
Further light..Rich man and Lazaras......satan become rich man'all kingdoms on earth are mine' judgement unto LOF without hope of waters of eternal life
to quench his condition. Lazarus,poor afflicted mankind,robbed of dominion of earth,suffers penalty in this life only..given eternal life.
surely the chaff is the physical life[flesh counts for nothing] wheat the spiritual...then again...there are 'WEEDS" to consider
And so you can see the symbolism in that parable. And without debating your interpretation of that parable, you can also see how using that parable to "prove there is a hell"...would be short sighted at best...right?
So the question is...are we supposed to see the book of Job as a literal historical happening or a parable to teach spiritual truths?
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:36:45 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 03, 2011, 06:33:13 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:05 PM
Still no one will answer my questions. :sigh:
Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council of God with the other sons of God? Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies? I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God. So how does that work?
Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?
Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?
Yes, I can see personification and symbolism in all of that...and haven't really given it careful consideration. I really have never looked at Job from this angle, but would like to do so. But, to suggest that we would want to dismiss a book of the Bible because it does't "fit a theory" is insulting. This is the kind of language I caution against.
When our spirit battles the carnal mind...what is that? When temptation hits you and your spirit puts up guard...there is an inward conversation in the temple of the Holy Spirit. Is this not the carnal mind meeting with the council of God? I don't know...but I can certainly see it. As for "following God's orders"...I believe God can put limitations to the destruction he allows in a believers life. I know addiction took me to the brink of death...it left me with very little...no family life...no relationship with God...financial issues...licensing issues...depression...despair...sores...physical ailments. My carnal leadings had destroyed my life. But, from there I cried out to God...and He heard my cries. Do I believe my carnal mind was constrained by God? Yes...I believe he put some limits on the amount of destruction. Did God repair...and even give me more than I had before addiction...oh yes! I can so see the symbolism of this story. I believe using the book of Job to support the notion of a fallen angel satan is like using the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to "prove" there is a hell.
Ok, can you answer the other questions?
Job is the book that convinced me Satan is a REAL spirit being, back in the day when I was trying to figure this stuff out.
So, I would really like to have my questions answered by those who say Satan is the carnal mind.
Like I said, I haven't given this much thought. This is merely me seeing new things in the book of Job I had never seen before. It makes sense with what has been revealed to me through relationship. What exactly is your question...whether the carnal mind is one of the sons of God? List your questions clearly and in order supported by Scripture and lets see if we can discuss them with some mutual respect and love.
Quote from: shawn on November 03, 2011, 06:42:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:36:45 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 03, 2011, 06:33:13 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:15:05 PM
Still no one will answer my questions. :sigh:
Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council of God with the other sons of God? Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies? I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God. So how does that work?
Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?
Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?
Yes, I can see personification and symbolism in all of that...and haven't really given it careful consideration. I really have never looked at Job from this angle, but would like to do so. But, to suggest that we would want to dismiss a book of the Bible because it does't "fit a theory" is insulting. This is the kind of language I caution against.
When our spirit battles the carnal mind...what is that? When temptation hits you and your spirit puts up guard...there is an inward conversation in the temple of the Holy Spirit. Is this not the carnal mind meeting with the council of God? I don't know...but I can certainly see it. As for "following God's orders"...I believe God can put limitations to the destruction he allows in a believers life. I know addiction took me to the brink of death...it left me with very little...no family life...no relationship with God...financial issues...licensing issues...depression...despair...sores...physical ailments. My carnal leadings had destroyed my life. But, from there I cried out to God...and He heard my cries. Do I believe my carnal mind was constrained by God? Yes...I believe he put some limits on the amount of destruction. Did God repair...and even give me more than I had before addiction...oh yes! I can so see the symbolism of this story. I believe using the book of Job to support the notion of a fallen angel satan is like using the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to "prove" there is a hell.
Ok, can you answer the other questions?
Job is the book that convinced me Satan is a REAL spirit being, back in the day when I was trying to figure this stuff out.
So, I would really like to have my questions answered by those who say Satan is the carnal mind.
Like I said, I haven't given this much thought. This is merely me seeing new things in the book of Job I had never seen before. It makes sense with what has been revealed to me through relationship. What exactly is your question...whether the carnal mind is one of the sons of God? List your questions clearly and in order supported by Scripture and lets see if we can discuss them with some mutual respect and love.
Well, we are given a very specific story in Job, and a glimpse into heavenly activities going on behind the scenes.
Right now my question concerns the description of the sons of God meeting with God and Satan is among them. And, Satan asks permission to go after Job.
So--how do you substitute the carnal mind into that description and make any sense out of it?
I see that as an actual description of something that is really happening. But, if you want to make it metaphor or whatever, how do you do that?
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
Post the verses you are talking about so we can look at them. Since it's your point, I would rather not have to go looking for the verses.
But, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...there is also very specific conversations...and very descriptive verses about suffering. Does that also mean this is literal and we should fear hellfire?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 06:53:23 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
Sheila answered that in her post. She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol] that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.
So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.
Quote from: shawn on November 03, 2011, 06:55:17 PM
Post the verses you are talking about so we can look at them. Since it's your point, I would rather not have to go looking for the verses.
But, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...there is also very specific conversations...and very descriptive verses about suffering. Does that also mean this is literal and we should fear hellfire?
We can start here:
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1
Okay, Molly, for me, it's not carnal mind verses God . . .for me, it's carnality as a force . . .like . . . gravity . . .you can't see it but everyone is bound by it. Carnality for me, does to my "soul" what gravity does to my flesh. It binds you just by it's very nature. When I "feed" into it, then my mind "becomes" carnally driven, thus, it is my carnal mind that I speak of.
I think what Sheila was trying to point out was, we understand that the rich man and Lazarus is a parable that people have done the same as what you're doing with Job. They use "pieces" of the whole to build another doctrine that is indirectly connected to the original context. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not meant to be the platform for one to build a doctrine on what hell is like any more than Job is. The context of Job was pertaining to faith.
Now, I will say this, in all of my demolition of old beliefs, the Job thing has always been one that hasn't been as crystal clear as other aspects to the topic of satan have been. Revelation of truth isn't an "on"/"off" switch that you can flip whenever you want a quick response or defense. I don't build my belief on who satan by what Scripture APPEARS to say anymore than I build my belief in who I am in Christ according to what "I THINK" Scripture says.
This entire thing is built on faith, not proof. So please keep that in mind when pressing in for "proof".
All I can say to this is, when we base our lives on the sound within us, it elevates us to see through grace rather than knowledge. And as such, everything has changed. I don't have all the answers to the appearances of what we "think" it is to be saying, but I do know from the perspective of grace that the serpent is not what we've been taught and neither is satan. By faith I've received that and by faith I intend to grow deeper into the maturity of these things so that continual understanding of the gray areas as you're into now will eventually become clear.
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:57:18 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 06:53:23 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
Sheila answered that in her post. She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol] that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.
So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.
Sorry, no, that does not answer the question.
Enoch fables are not allowed.
Is the Adversary a fallen angel?
Bro. Nathan, you may be completely right. But I gotsa querstion. What if by faith you're wrong? What if "by faith" you "received" "something", that was a just a little off-kilter...you kept "pressing in" to that, which eventually actually led you away from sound doctrine on a particular matter? How would you resolve that?
Now, the reason I ask is, I believe 2 things about that. I believe it's just as you say, that we can base all our beliefs ONLY on what's written AS WE understand them, WITHOUT being given Spirit revelation on the truth within. So we can be off kilter in that direction. However, I also believe there's a part of all of us as human beings that can be deceived, tricked into believing our own imaginations. That's why I personally try to live by both what is written and what is revealed. I'm not saying I'm good at it! I'm saying that's what I believe.
Would you have some thoughts on that? If so, please take a moment, don't be automatically defensive of your current beliefs, and realize I'm asking an honest question. Thanks, James.
God promises His Spirit will lead us to Truth.
Faith is the path.
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 07:01:24 PM
Okay, Molly, for me, it's not carnal mind verses God . . .for me, it's carnality as a force . . .like . . . gravity . . .you can't see it but everyone is bound by it. Carnality for me, does to my "soul" what gravity does to my flesh. It binds you just by it's very nature. When I "feed" into it, then my mind "becomes" carnally driven, thus, it is my carnal mind that I speak of.
I think what Sheila was trying to point out was, we understand that the rich man and Lazarus is a parable that people have done the same as what you're doing with Job. They use "pieces" of the whole to build another doctrine that is indirectly connected to the original context. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not meant to be the platform for one to build a doctrine on what hell is like any more than Job is. The context of Job was pertaining to faith.
Now, I will say this, in all of my demolition of old beliefs, the Job thing has always been one that hasn't been as crystal clear as other aspects to the topic of satan have been. Revelation of truth isn't an "on"/"off" switch that you can flip whenever you want a quick response or defense. I don't build my belief on who satan by what Scripture APPEARS to say anymore than I build my belief in who I am in Christ according to what "I THINK" Scripture says.
This entire thing is built on faith, not proof. So please keep that in mind when pressing in for "proof".
All I can say to this is, when we base our lives on the sound within us, it elevates us to see through grace rather than knowledge. And as such, everything has changed. I don't have all the answers to the appearances of what we "think" it is to be saying, but I do know from the perspective of grace that the serpent is not what we've been taught and neither is satan. By faith I've received that and by faith I intend to grow deeper into the maturity of these things so that continual understanding of the gray areas as you're into now will eventually become clear.
well, I'm not denying the existence of the carnal mind or how it operates relative to God.
But, like I said, back in the day, when I felt I needed to know these things because I had a lot of evil coming at me from three different sources, and I decided I had to go to the expert on evil and how to handle it, so I read Job, and I saw for one, that Satan is real.
So, this was something I needed to know for very practical reasons because I needed to know what to do about these evil attacks that I could no longer handle with my own resources. This was during the period when I was starting to rebuild relationship with God, or more accurately, He with me, and I didn't know anything about anything.
My experience since then has never disabused me of the first thing I learned about this subject--that Satan is real.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:03:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:57:18 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 06:53:23 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
Sheila answered that in her post. She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol] that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.
So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.
Sorry, no, that does not answer the question.
Enoch fables are not allowed.
Is the Adversary a fallen angel?
That's an Enoch fable? lol
That's right out of the Bible.
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:59:27 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 03, 2011, 06:55:17 PM
Post the verses you are talking about so we can look at them. Since it's your point, I would rather not have to go looking for the verses.
But, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...there is also very specific conversations...and very descriptive verses about suffering. Does that also mean this is literal and we should fear hellfire?
We can start here:
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1
I'm not quite sure what the question is...but I suppose you believe this is a literal conversation. I will answer your question with a question. What makes you believe this is a literal conversation? If it's literal...you are telling me that God literally plays games with the devil? You believe God has conversations with satan, and uses His best believers to prove points to the devil? Does this makes sense to you? Are we merely chess pieces? Does God and the devil play games with our spirits?
Or does this make more sense...that carnality (either individually or as a force) is everywhere...literally up, down and all around the earth...showing up everywhere. And God uses it as a refiners fire to test and purify even the most devout...that no one is immune. We each will face our Job moment...and that this book is to be seen as discussing events that happen on the individual as well as the universal levels.
Which one makes more sense to you? My spirit has a tough time accepting the first scenerio.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:11:02 PM
God promises His Spirit will lead us to Truth.
Faith is the path.
Yes, I agree. But are you ever wrong about anything? (I am).
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 07:09:05 PM
Bro. Nathan, you may be completely right. But I gotsa querstion. What if by faith you're wrong? What if "by faith" you "received" "something", that was a just a little off-kilter...you kept "pressing in" to that, which eventually actually led you away from sound doctrine on a particular matter? How would you resolve that?
Now, the reason I ask is, I believe 2 things about that. I believe it's just as you say, that we can base all our beliefs ONLY on what's written AS WE understand them, WITHOUT being given Spirit revelation on the truth within. So we can be off kilter in that direction. However, I also believe there's a part of all of us as human beings that can be deceived, tricked into believing our own imaginations. That's why I personally try to live by both what is written and what is revealed. I'm not saying I'm good at it! I'm saying that's what I believe.
Would you have some thoughts on that? If so, please take a moment, don't be automatically defensive of your current beliefs, and realize I'm asking an honest question. Thanks, James.
Not to speak for Nathan...because this question actually hit home with me. But, me personally...I don't believe Jesus died on the Cross to give us perfect doctrine. He died on the Cross to reconcil us to the Father. If someone believes satan is a being and others believe he is a force...how does that change anything? It doesn't. When looking at these kinds of matters...I look at the fruit it produces in my life. That points me to truth.
:bigGrin:
OK, I much like your thoughts.
Agreed about Jesus and relationship.
But......we're also instructed to pursue, hold fast to, and contend for sound doctrine. Paul spent much time instructing about that...not to be carried away by every wind of doctrine, etc., etc. So it seems like it is important?
That's one thing that concerns me about either/or...
"the whole counsel"...
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 07:12:58 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:03:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:57:18 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 06:53:23 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
Sheila answered that in her post. She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol] that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.
So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.
Sorry, no, that does not answer the question.
Enoch fables are not allowed.
Is the Adversary a fallen angel?
That's an Enoch fable? lol
That's right out of the Bible.
And, yet still... Is Satan a fallen angel ???????????????????
Quote from: shawn on November 03, 2011, 07:17:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:59:27 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 03, 2011, 06:55:17 PM
Post the verses you are talking about so we can look at them. Since it's your point, I would rather not have to go looking for the verses.
But, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...there is also very specific conversations...and very descriptive verses about suffering. Does that also mean this is literal and we should fear hellfire?
We can start here:
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1
I'm not quite sure what the question is...but I suppose you believe this is a literal conversation. I will answer your question with a question. What makes you believe this is a literal conversation? If it's literal...you are telling me that God literally plays games with the devil? You believe God has conversations with satan, and uses His best believers to prove points to the devil? Does this makes sense to you? Are we merely chess pieces? Does God and the devil play games with our spirits?
Or does this make more sense...that carnality (either individually or as a force) is everywhere...literally up, down and all around the earth...showing up everywhere. And God uses it as a refiners fire to test and purify even the most devout...that no one is immune. We each will face our Job moment...and that this book is to be seen as discussing events that happen on the individual as well as the universal levels.
Which one makes more sense to you? My spirit has a tough time accepting the first scenerio.
Well I wouldn't characterize it the way you just did lol, but yes I believe that God was meeting with his divine council [the sons of God] and Satan was one of the group [that word in the Old Testament is a title, like the Prosecutor] and God and Satan had a discussion about Job.
Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described. There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.
But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 07:27:01 PM
Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described. There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.
But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.
Not that I necessarily agree with everything Mr. Eby writes (often, probably because I'm just not at a place of seeing it yet). So no, I'm not saying he has the final word! However, many seem to respect his insight, and I'd say in his article posted above, he'd see much the same way. :2c:
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 08:59:48 AM
ok, ok. sheesh. :icon_king:
My brethren, let me say, be like Christ at all times. Imitate him in "public." Most of us live in some sort of public capacity—many of us are called to work before our fellow-men every day. We are watched; our words are caught; our lives are examined—taken to pieces. The eagle-eyed, argus-eyed world observes everything we do, and sharp critics are upon us. Let us live the life of Christ in public. Let us take care that we exhibit our Master, and not ourselves—so that we can say, "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me."
—Charles Spurgeon
Good words from Spurgeon. I might also say that I read much of Moody and Spurgeon many years ago as a "babe" found out years later that like Lewis, Moody and Spurgeon were earthy preachers, they new what the Bible said but mainly had no real I thoughts of what the Bible taught. But they did well in the world of religion. I, me personally have no longer a use for them, but thats just me. :sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 07:30:16 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 07:27:01 PM
Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described. There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.
But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.
Not that I necessarily agree with everything Mr. Eby writes (often, probably because I'm just not at a place of seeing it yet). So no, I'm not saying he has the final word! However, many seem to respect his insight, and I'd say in his article posted above, he'd see much the same way. :2c:
What article?
Told you sometimes I'm wrong. Oops. :laughing7:
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/serpent/Serpent.htm
maybe i put that link in the wrong thread! silly
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:26:22 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 07:12:58 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:03:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 06:57:18 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 06:53:23 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 04:51:37 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 03, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"
Sheila answered that in her post. She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol] that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.
So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.
Sorry, no, that does not answer the question.
Enoch fables are not allowed.
Is the Adversary a fallen angel?
That's an Enoch fable? lol
That's right out of the Bible.
And, yet still... Is Satan a fallen angel ???????????????????
No.
http://www.godfire.net/Traducer.html
eby/roach
surely not dissenting opinions!!! and they probably both fully believe they're right
:scratchhead:
I see no humor.
If you please, what exactly is so funny to you?
Oh jabcat.
I see you edited your original post.
I must read those links James\Beloved~
heres Ebays Take in part## ive not read this until Now~
Another clue to the mystery of Job is found in Job 1:6. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them." With what divine genius does the Holy Spirit on the inspired pages of God's Word portray the blessed scene of that first earthly son of God, in the image and likeness of God, abiding in the lovely, fragrant, luscious Garden in Eden. There was a wonderful Presence that walked in the Garden in the cool of the day, and the man presented himself there before the Presence of the Lord and walked and talked with God. We know for a certainty that there was a presentation before the Lord, for as soon as man sinned he heard the Voice of the Lord God walking in the Garden and rather than joyfully going forth to meet Him Adam and his wife "hid themselves from the Presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the Garden." God was in the Garden. Man was in the Garden. What sweet, holy communion passed between them in that blessed hour of man's innocence! But no sooner does Adam, the son of God (Lk. 3:38), present himself before the Lord than suddenly and mysteriously the serpent appears on the scene! There is a man that is perfect, but innocent — and the amazing thing is that in the presence of God and that man, there is a devil.
Can you not see how it is, my beloved, that when the sons of God present themselves before the Lord, Satan comes also among them? This very same experience happened to none other than our blessed Lord Jesus — the Pattern Son. Did you notice how strangely Matthew and Mark speak of Christ's temptation? "And immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil" (Mk. 1:2; Mat. 4:1). What a strange statement! Jesus had just presented Himself before the Father at Jordan, and the Father witnessed of Him before all: "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Just as God declared Job to be a perfect man, so He declared His Son to be well pleasing to Him in every way. Then immediately the Holy Spirit of God drives the sinless Son of God into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan, the arch enemy of all righteousness, a murderer from the beginning, and the father of lies! Ah, but it was necessary for the Son of God to be proven, to be made strong, to overcome in these realms before proceeding on into His glorious ministry and the agony and death of the cross.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:49:50 PM
I see no humor.
If you please, what exactly is so funny to you?
don't you find it interesting? we, myself and i believe you included, can be so sure we have the "true" opinion, when that's often what it is...an opinion.
i'm not throwing stones at these 2 men. as far as i'm concerned, they're both great men of God. But don't you find place to pause that they would see a doctrinal issue so differently? then what does that say about the rest of us?
I find Bros. Eby and Roach on the same page.
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 07:53:13 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:49:50 PM
I see no humor.
If you please, what exactly is so funny to you?
come on, try. maybe you can see some humor.
don't you find it interesting? we, myself and i believe you included, can be so sure we have the "true" opinion, when that's often what it is...an opinion.
i'm not throwing stones at these 2 men. as far as i'm concerned, they're both great men of God. But don't you find place to pause that they would see a doctrinal issue so differently? then what does that say about the rest of us?
May each man be convicted in their OWN mind~
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:54:52 PM
I find Bros. Eby and Roach on the same page.
whats Ive read be it not much # Like two peas from the same Pod Beloved~ :icon_flower:
As long as people continue to dance on the foundation that the carnal mind is the adversary/satan it will continue to be a circle dance.
Romans 8:7
(ASV) because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
(CLV) because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able."
(KJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Rotherham) Inasmuch as, what is preferred by the flesh, is hostile towards God, for, unto the law of God, it doth not submit itself, neither in fact can it.—
(WNT) Abandonment to earthly things is a state of enmity to God. Such a mind does not submit to God's Law, and indeed cannot do so.
(YLT) because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Joh 3:6 Whatever has been born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever has been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.
1Co 2:16 For who hath come to know the mind of the Lord, that shall instruct him? But, we, have, the mind of Christ.
MIND G3563 nous the intellect, that is, mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by implication meaning: - mind, understanding.
Can we not see the obvious?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:54:52 PM
I find Bros. Eby and Roach on the same page.
You're probably read them more than me (I know you have Eby...I believe once you said you'd read all X # of his Kingdom series. I have not.)
So, maybe I am truly misunderstanding something, and if so, I'm sorry.
But I take it that Mr. Eby believes satan to be an outside entity (that can affect one's mind), while Mr. Roach believes it to
be the carnal mind. Is that inaccurate?
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 08:00:57 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:54:52 PM
I find Bros. Eby and Roach on the same page.
You're probably read them more than me (I know you have Eby...I believe once you said you'd read all X # of his Kingdom series. I have not.)
So, maybe I am truly misunderstanding something, and if so, I'm sorry.
But I take it that Mr. Eby believes satan to be an outside entity (that can affect one's mind), while Mr. Roach believes it to be the carnal mind. Is that inaccurate?
Yes.
I'd like to add one thing, actually reinforce one thing Shawn said; that knowing and pursuing Christ is our greatest call.
I believe many doctrinal issues, understandings, etc. are important. But still, knowing Christ and Him crucified, AND RISEN! Hallelujah! is the supreme focus.
Blessings.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 08:02:13 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 08:00:57 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 07:54:52 PM
I find Bros. Eby and Roach on the same page.
You're probably read them more than me (I know you have Eby...I believe once you said you'd read all X # of his Kingdom series. I have not.)
So, maybe I am truly misunderstanding something, and if so, I'm sorry.
But I take it that Mr. Eby believes satan to be an outside entity (that can affect one's mind), while Mr. Roach believes it to be the carnal mind. Is that inaccurate?
Yes.
Do you suppose the Devil came to Jesus there as a weird looking creature, with little, evil looking horns protruding from his temple, and a pointed tail? How often with our childish and distorted understanding have we pictured Jesus confronted by that legendary figure in the red suit, with a pitchfork in his hands! This is nought but foolishness, for Satan is spirit, even that spirit which now works in the sons of disobedience (Eph. 2:2). How many times have you been tempted by the Devil? Can you count the times? How often has he spoken to you, enticing, suggesting, compelling? Have you ever seen him? Have you ever heard his audible voice? Certainly not! Yet — you have sensed his presence, you have heard his voice, you have felt his power! It was all in your MIND, in your EMOTIONS. Does not our Lord, the Spirit of Truth, speak to us in the same way? That still small voice, the inner urging, the inward knowing, the spiritual consciousness — all from a dimension beyond the natural senses. Because it is all in our mind and heart does not mean that it is imagination or hallucination! In the depths of my spirit I am absolutely certain that there was not some hideous personality materializing before the eyes of Jesus in that Judean wilderness. Remember — Jesus was not only the Son of God, He was the Son of man. Being both He was capable not only of hearing from God, but hearing those things that be of man. So when we speak of that ancient Serpent which is the Devil and Satan, we are not talking about some mighty fallen angel, but that mind that savors the things of man — the carnal mind.
Quoteknowing Christ and Him crucified, AND RISEN! Hallelujah! is the supreme focus.
:icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
found this interesting. he appears to look at the big picture, considering different angles and possibilities.
http://www.sigler.org/shofar/janeleade/egintro.htm
excerpt; "Preston Eby, P.O. Box 371240, El Paso, TX 79937, has excellent writings on this subject, and after speaking with him while in El Paso on our last trip, and after reading and studying those writings, I agree with his conclusions concerning Satan, that old (ancient) serpent, the Devil. His contention is that, as the Bible states, Satan is a spirit; the spirit which now works in the children of disobedience. But this spirit works through man's carnal mind. That doesn't make it any less a spirit, for we are told that we must be renewed in the spirit of our minds (Eph.4:23)".
He also says; "Therefore, let the reader be led of the Lord as to those with whom he might seek to share these things. They are not for all. While there are those who seek the recognition and admiration of others through their great revelation and understanding of deep things, let us realize that we are called to be stewards of the mysteries of God, and one must be initiated into the mysteries of God."
Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 08:19:14 PM
found this interesting. he appears to look at the big picture, considering different angles and possibilities.
http://www.sigler.org/shofar/janeleade/egintro.htm
excerpt; "Preston Eby, P.O. Box 371240, El Paso, TX 79937, has excellent writings on this subject, and after speaking with him while in El Paso on our last trip, and after reading and studying those writings, I agree with his conclusions concerning Satan, that old (ancient) serpent, the Devil. His contention is that, as the Bible states, Satan is a spirit; the spirit which now works in the children of disobedience. But this spirit works through man's carnal mind. That doesn't make it any less a spirit, for we are told that we must be renewed in the spirit of our minds (Eph.4:23)".
He also says; "Therefore, let the reader be led of the Lord as to those with whom he might seek to share these things. They are not for all. While there are those who seek the recognition and admiration of others through their great revelation and understanding of deep things, let us realize that we are called to be stewards of the mysteries of God, and one must be initiated into the mysteries of God."
Blessings.
I'm missing the intent of your post, jabcat.
Are you saying: Don't throw pearls before swine?
That's a great article, Jab. Eby agrees that Satan is a spirit being and brings out some very important points. Thanks!
So it is with us as human beings. One who grows up in a sheltered environment, who is pampered all his life, grows up a weak, spineless individual. ADVERSITY builds strength of character. If we were never exposed to trials and tribulation, we would grow up weak indeed! The more we are exposed to ADVERSE circumstances, the more we have to wrestle with our environment, the more we are CHALLENGED by the world around us, the stronger we become. Saints, IF WE WOULD BE THE SONS OF THE MOST HIGH we must be STRONG in the Lord and in the power of HIS might! Our Father wants us to be strong, so He has wisely given us wrestling partners to wrestle with, so we will become strong. There are opposing forces (thank God for them!) that we must constantly battle against. Some of these adverse things are the principalities and powers in the heavenlies. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places" (Eph. 6:12).
Now, what does God do but deliberately hand over this perfect and upright man into the hands of Satan to do his worst upon him, only that he should not touch his life. It was be cause God desired to test Job that He brought forth "the smith to blow the coals up on the fire." Please note that it was not Satan's idea to persecute poor old Job! Oh, no! it was God Himself who brought up the subject! There Satan was, presenting himself before the Lord, appearing for duty, and God asked, "Where have you been?" Satan replied, "Walking up and down in the earth" (No mention of Job at all). Well, Satan," the Lord asked, "Have you considered My servant Job? Have you noticed that he eschews evil and fears God? Have you noticed that, Satan?" You can be assured, dear ones, that Satan HAD noticed Job, but he wasn't doing anything to him.
One of the most glorious testimonies of the preservation of the saints of God is given here in this passage by Satan himself. "Does Job fear God for naught? Have You not made a hedge around him and about his house and about all that he has on every side?" Praise the Lord! Yes, there truly is a hedge around the people of God, and that hedge is Jesus Christ Himself. The Psalmist recognized and rejoiced in this fact when he said, "He that dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. will say of the Lord, HE IS MY REFUGE and my fortress: my God in Him will I trust: (Ps. 91:1-2). "You've put a hedge around him," Satan said, "and I can't get to him!" Then he went on to say, "You must put forth YOUR HAND and touch all that he has, and he will curse You to Your face." But the Lord, who searches the reins of the heart, who knows them that are His, knows who can be trusted with affliction, and will not allow any to be tested beyond what they are able to bear. He therefore said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power - in your hand - only upon himself put not forth your hand."
The New Testament abounds with this same truth, Did you notice how strangely Matthew and Mark speak of Christ's temptation? "And immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil" (Mk. 1:12; Matt. 4:1). What a strange statement! The Holy Spirit of God drives the sinless Son of God into the wilderness to be tempted of Satan, the arch enemy of all righteousness, a murderer from the beginning, and the father of lies! Ah, but it was necessary for the Son to be PROVEN, to be made STRONG, to OVERCOME in these realms before proceeding on into His glorious ministry and the death of the cross. Truly God creates evil and uses it, too, for His glory! The apostle Paul fully understood this great truth and practiced it himself. He instructed the Corinthian believers to "deliver such as one to Satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," and he declares in his letter to Timothy that he himself has delivered certain brethren unto Satan "that they might learn not to blaspheme." But the apostle had experienced something of this kind of discipline also, for he says, "Lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, THE MESSENGER OF SATAN TO BUFFET ME, lest I should be exalted above measure." All this clearly shows that Satan is a creature created by God for a specific work, and even that work shall result in blessing for God's children and redound to the glory of God!
Dear saints of God, don't believe for one moment that anything in all God's great universe is out of control! God is GOD, He IS in full control of every sphere of activity, and Satan himself is under the province of God. May God enlighten our minds to perceive the truth that Satan has no power at all except that which God delegates to him. Do you REALLY believe that Satan could cause all the trouble in the world UNLESS GOD HAD ORDAINED IT? My friend, if you believe Satan is a problem to Almighty God, then your God is entirely too small! Satan is no thorn in God's side who made him in the first place, who binds his hands daily, who sets his boundaries and limits his power and marks his path. Oh, yes, those who would be Sons of God MUST OVERCOME HIM. Beloved, when that purpose is accomplished, Satan will have completed his course as an INSTRUMENT in the hand of God who has everything under control! Hallelujah!
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/serpent/Serpent.htm
Quote from: TaffyBecause it is all in our mind and heart...
No, it's not all in my mind and heart. God is out there, existing independently of me. So is Satan.
There is a branch of philosophy that believes that, but not me.
solipcism the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist.
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: TaffyBecause it is all in our mind and heart...
No, it's not all in my mind and heart. God is out there, existing independently of me. So is Satan.
There is a branch of philosophy that believes that, but not me.
solipcism
the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist.
to takeminor quote from a Post I can find please give me the link
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 08:54:28 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: TaffyBecause it is all in our mind and heart...
No, it's not all in my mind and heart. God is out there, existing independently of me. So is Satan.
There is a branch of philosophy that believes that, but not me.
solipcism
the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist.
to takeminor quote from a Post I can find please give me the link
Your last post:
"Because it is all in our mind and heart does not mean that it is imagination or hallucination! In the depths of my spirit I am absolutely certain that there was not some hideous personality materializing before the eyes of Jesus in that Judean wilderness. Remember — Jesus was not only the Son of God, He was the Son of man. Being both He was capable not only of hearing from God, but hearing those things that be of man. So when we speak of that ancient Serpent which is the Devil and Satan, we are not talking about some mighty fallen angel, but that mind that savors the things of man — the carnal mind.'
I can see Prestons Point but have read elwin on the Trudecer~ it makes equally sense~~# let each man Be convicted in His own Mind~~# Great Link On Elwins Beloved# not read His take before either~~~ Im not given to reading others much~I may even read at Least One article Brother Garys has written one day~ :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: TaffyBecause it is all in our mind and heart...
No, it's not all in my mind and heart. God is out there, existing independently of me. So is Satan.
Molly God is in You, and you are in Him, He is not dependent on us, but we are not independent from Him
my last post was This ~knowing Christ and Him crucified, AND RISEN! Hallelujah! is the supreme focus.
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 03, 2011, 08:57:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: TaffyBecause it is all in our mind and heart...
No, it's not all in my mind and heart. God is out there, existing independently of me. So is Satan.
Molly God is in You, and you are in Him, He is not dependent on us, but we are not independent from Him
again Im not sure what Molly Ona bout concerning my post, Id have to read again~ But I see as an analogy , men being Fish made of water , He being the WATER of the sea they swim in and Him In the Fish~
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 03, 2011, 08:57:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: TaffyBecause it is all in our mind and heart...
No, it's not all in my mind and heart. God is out there, existing independently of me. So is Satan.
Molly God is in You, and you are in Him, He is not dependent on us, but we are not independent from Him
What I mean to say is--God exists with or without me or all the people on the face of the earth.
I don't have time right now to go into much detail to try to answer the question . . .maybe in an hour or so, but for now,
I find it interesting that when we come to a loss of understand, we tend to lean toward the words of another with which we treat as one would with a piece of clothing in a thrift store . . .we try on the words of another and see how they fit and whether or not it agrees with our identity and such . . .sometimes we like the shirt, but there's a loose string that needs to be acknowledged, or there's a wrinkle that needs to be ironed out . . .or . . .we like the fit but the color just looks terrible on us . . .so we take it back off and continue sifting through the writings and comments of other people until we can find something that suits us.
But what if the kingdom of God isn't something you can borrow from someone else .. .what if the kingdom of God is a garment that is meant only for one individual . . .instead of wearing someone else's ideals . . .who do 'YOU' say that I am??? We try to force answers, we try to manipulate knowledge to uncover knowledge . . .but again, spiritual truth doesn't come by way of flesh and blood . .. it's a birthing of truth from "within" us.
Gotta go, but I'll try to answer the other question later.
Quote from: Taffy on November 03, 2011, 09:01:08 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 03, 2011, 08:57:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: TaffyBecause it is all in our mind and heart...
No, it's not all in my mind and heart. God is out there, existing independently of me. So is Satan.
Molly God is in You, and you are in Him, He is not dependent on us, but we are not independent from Him
again Im not sure what Molly Ona bout concerning my post, Id have to read again~ But I see as an analogy , men being Fish made of water , He being the WATER of the sea they swim in and Him In the Fish~
This is what I quoted from:
"Because it is all in our mind and heart does not mean that it is imagination or hallucination! In the depths of my spirit I am absolutely certain that there was not some hideous personality materializing before the eyes of Jesus in that Judean wilderness. Remember — Jesus was not only the Son of God, He was the Son of man. Being both He was capable not only of hearing from God, but hearing those things that be of man. So when we speak of that ancient Serpent which is the Devil and Satan, we are not talking about some mighty fallen angel, but that mind that savors the things of man — the carnal mind
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 07:23:24 PM
:bigGrin:
OK, I much like your thoughts.
Agreed about Jesus and relationship.
But......we're also instructed to pursue, hold fast to, and contend for sound doctrine. Paul spent much time instructing about that...not to be carried away by every wind of doctrine, etc., etc. So it seems like it is important?
And I agree but what was Paul speaking about? Was he instructing believers to squabble about details that don't really effect relationship with our Savior? Or was he speaking about those who were deceiving believers into sin more so grace abounds more...or the other crew who were trying to drag believers back into lawful living? See those kinds of things effect relationship, and I'm willing to go to bat about the need to have a sound understanding of these things. While I love a good discussion over any Biblical topic, I pick my battles when it comes to protecting the Gospel revealed to me through relationship.
Quoteit's a birthing of truth from "within" us.
ALWAYS~ i for one evry rarely read others Nate, even so, when others thoughts witness what ive been shown certainly Bears witness~
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 09:02:47 PM
I don't have time right now to go into much detail to try to answer the question . . .maybe in an hour or so, but for now,
I find it interesting that when we come to a loss of understand, we tend to lean toward the words of another with which we treat as one would with a piece of clothing in a thrift store . . .we try on the words of another and see how they fit and whether or not it agrees with our identity and such . . .sometimes we like the shirt, but there's a loose string that needs to be acknowledged, or there's a wrinkle that needs to be ironed out . . .or . . .we like the fit but the color just looks terrible on us . . .so we take it back off and continue sifting through the writings and comments of other people until we can find something that suits us.
But what if the kingdom of God isn't something you can borrow from someone else .. .what if the kingdom of God is a garment that is meant only for one individual . . .instead of wearing someone else's ideals . . .who do 'YOU' say that I am??? We try to force answers, we try to manipulate knowledge to uncover knowledge . . .but again, spiritual truth doesn't come by way of flesh and blood . .. it's a birthing of truth from "within" us.
Gotta go, but I'll try to answer the other question later.
You're right. You can't borrow it from someone else. Good point.
But, it's always nice to have a witness to what you yourself have experienced and know to be true.
I think we are each talking about our experiences of it---and we seem to disagree at the moment.
Hopefully, not forever. :winkgrin:
Pretty much everything Eby says in his article describes my experience of it.
~ This is Prestons TAKE Fine~ :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 08:29:22 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 03, 2011, 08:19:14 PM
found this interesting. he appears to look at the big picture, considering different angles and possibilities.
http://www.sigler.org/shofar/janeleade/egintro.htm
excerpt; "Preston Eby, P.O. Box 371240, El Paso, TX 79937, has excellent writings on this subject, and after speaking with him while in El Paso on our last trip, and after reading and studying those writings, I agree with his conclusions concerning Satan, that old (ancient) serpent, the Devil. His contention is that, as the Bible states, Satan is a spirit; the spirit which now works in the children of disobedience. But this spirit works through man's carnal mind. That doesn't make it any less a spirit, for we are told that we must be renewed in the spirit of our minds (Eph.4:23)".
He also says; "Therefore, let the reader be led of the Lord as to those with whom he might seek to share these things. They are not for all. While there are those who seek the recognition and admiration of others through their great revelation and understanding of deep things, let us realize that we are called to be stewards of the mysteries of God, and one must be initiated into the mysteries of God."
Blessings.
I'm missing the intent of your post, jabcat.
Are you saying: Don't throw pearls before swine?
That's probably the
least focus of my post. :bigGrin: Thanks for asking/clarifying.
Main focus; "after speaking with him [Preston] while in El Paso on our last trip, and after reading and studying those writings, I agree with his conclusions concerning Satan, that old (ancient) serpent, the Devil. His contention is that,
as the Bible states, Satan is a spirit; the spirit which now works in the children of disobedience. But this spirit works through man's carnal mind [
not man's carnal mind, works
through]. That doesn't make it any less a spirit.."
agreed here.
...but also agree Christ, crucified, risen. Many other doctrinal issues important, but secondary. Not to be dismissed, but also not the main focus. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 09:02:47 PM
I don't have time right now to go into much detail to try to answer the question . . .maybe in an hour or so, but for now,
I find it interesting that when we come to a loss of understand, we tend to lean toward the words of another with which we treat as one would with a piece of clothing in a thrift store . . .we try on the words of another and see how they fit and whether or not it agrees with our identity and such . . .sometimes we like the shirt, but there's a loose string that needs to be acknowledged, or there's a wrinkle that needs to be ironed out . . .or . . .we like the fit but the color just looks terrible on us . . .so we take it back off and continue sifting through the writings and comments of other people until we can find something that suits us.
But what if the kingdom of God isn't something you can borrow from someone else .. .what if the kingdom of God is a garment that is meant only for one individual . . .instead of wearing someone else's ideals . . .who do 'YOU' say that I am??? We try to force answers, we try to manipulate knowledge to uncover knowledge . . .but again, spiritual truth doesn't come by way of flesh and blood . .. it's a birthing of truth from "within" us.
Gotta go, but I'll try to answer the other question later.
Once in awhile I feel the bombshell in my spirit. You confirmed something working within me here...
But what if the kingdom of God isn't something you can borrow from someone else .. .what if the kingdom of God is a garment that is meant only for one individual.
I believe relationship is a very personal thing we have with God and our Savior. I believe revelation to be the same kind of thing. I believe we all get bits and pieces. I highly doubt any of us get most of it, let alone all of it.
And in the end, it's still not about having a perfect doctrine...nit picking details...arguments through the glass darkly...it's only about relationship...and what that relationship accomplishes in us, through us, for us and for others. The effects of this relationship pour out of us as our glasses are overflowing. Our cup isn't full of man's doctrines, but full of his inner workings within our lives.
And THIS is what is important. And THIS is what effects my understanding of the Bible. Will it agree with your understanding? Not always because we are not always in the same place. My understanding is both a mirror and a projector. My understanding of the Holy Scriptures allows me to look at myself...it exposes...divides...and brings darkness to light. My understanding also effects my actions...projecting them to the world. If I believe most everyone will suffer in eternal hellfire...that tells me something about myself...and certainly projects those beliefs to the world through action and attitude.
It is refreshing that we got past the fable that adversary/satan is a fallen angel!
lol, it's preposterous.
If all would only take the time to slow down and acknowledge what you just stated there Shawn. We tend to get a little too pushy about who's right or wrong. But all the while, when you deal with kingdom truths, everything is the opposite of what it "seems". That's really the launching pad where God thrusts us into relationship with him. It manifests on so many levels. It manifests on our relationship with each other. It manifests on what we're willing to allow to be demolished. It manifests through what he's been building up. It manifests through our action and through our ability to mature and grow deeper in him.
There is one place where I've experienced God just "showing up" in my spirit. It's the most unexpected place, but it happens all the time. It has nothing to do with how much I read, how deep in thought I am . . .my personal circumstances have no affect on it. Regardless of what's been going on in my day . . . it's for some reason, while I'm in the shower . . .I can't tell you how many times something totally so profound strikes me to the point that with shampoo in my hair and eyes, fingers full of suds . . .it still just stops me in my tracks and the next thing I know, I'm grinning ear to ear staring at a blank wall with the water running.
The righteousness he clothes us with is not clothing that "we" pick and choose as to what and when we wear them. Nor is it something we obtain through choosing our own method of how we want to receive it. It's all God from beginning to end. The sound of the message is just exhilarating. The awareness of the preciousness of it doesn't really hit until you try explaining it to someone else through conversations like . . .who is satan? When is the rapture? What is hell? "When" God drops these little bombs . . .he also does this thing where he ties outside "coincidences" in with the phenomenal message he's giving. It solidifies his truths inwardly as a result. So when conversations like this come up where others . . .who were not with me in the shower experience . . .question the validity of what it is that I've encountered, even though my words don't convince them, their rejection doesn't cause me to question the experience. I guess that's where I'm at pretty much all the time.
Molly you stated that it would be nice to encounter others who see things the same as you do. Couldn't agree with you more, yet at the same time, how long does it usually take when you're with those groups that you start seeing little differences, little checks in the armor . . . I guess the question is, is there really "a" group of individuals that are "totally" in agreement with "everything" that they each embrace in their relationship with God at all? "Can" there be such a group? "Should" there be such a group?
I just think "that" is a perception the traditional church has inflated into being something that really isn't possible unless there is forced conformity. I think that really is a telling statement Jesus presented to Peter when he asked "Who do YOU say that I am? . . " 'Well . . .I'm not sure who you are, but I like what Eby says about you . . ." It never answered the question, and it never opened the door for Truth to be revealed. The question motivates, it brings "cause" to our spirit to ENGAGE in what's about to be revealed . . .but when the mind starts "explaining logically" what it thinks the answer is . . again, spirit get's passed over for flesh and the opportunity for revelation is averted once again.
Is satan a spiritual entity? I used to think so, but no, now I don't. Can I explain Job? Only by metaphor and it really does explode in me when seeing the symbolism. For me, to take it literally is a mistake. I have never stated that all of the Bible IS a metaphor only. But I do believe that all of the Bible can be seen metaphorically and I even believe that the metaphors lead to deeper things than the literal ever could. For me, the accumulation of facts only lead to a conclusion. it's as I asked when we were discussing the tree in Revelation . . .if it is true that it is literally in Jerusalem . . .then what? The conclusion is, it leads to a literal place . . .if it doesn't take on spiritual connotations then where is it really leading us?
Walk in the spirit, but . . .rely on the literal to cuz that's just as efficient. Don't rely on your own understanding, but embrace your own conclusions you got through your natural reason and logic. Doesn't that create a contradiction in terms?
They say Job is the oldest book in the Bible. They say it was to have happened back in the early days because they base that on how the original text was constructed. It is assumed that it is a real story. There is no proof that it is and who's to say that the person that wrote it may have taken liberty of their imagination as to how this all came about. So where is the life in the message if all I got out of it is the devil is real? "If" God is light and in him there is no darkness or shadows of turning, why then do we try to make a logical assumption in proclaiming that light created darkness?
When the earth was created, God didn't create darkness on it, it just "was". Is there darkness in the spirit realm? I would have to say no. Darkness only pertains to the things of the earth. It is the nature of this realm for darkness to flourish. What Scripture "does" state is, God divided light "from" darkness. When light appears. darkness flees. That's the nature of this realm. So . . .if satan is darkness, he can't be in the spirit realm of God. In fact, did Jesus not say he saw satan fall as lightning to the earth for there was NO PLACE FOUND for him in heaven.
It was said that some can see Job plain as day in the literal. Satan can approach God in all his glory where it's all light and no darkness can exist, and he can casually converse with him . . .you would rather have us accept that rather than realize that from Genesis to Revelation it's the same story about the relationship between God and man with Jesus as the centerpiece. There are no other players . . God . . .Adam . . . .and Jesus, the last Adam. Everything else is what goes on "in" that relationship. What goes on "in" man. The story is about how Adam was separated and become bound as a result of his misaligned relationship. And Jesus paying the price for Adam's rebellion so that the relationship between God and Adam could be restored. Satan is what is going on "in" Adam . . .it's all the inner workings of what is going on with in all of us. And how we're all redeemed back to Him.
But when you become distracted by individual pieces of the inner workings, it leads us off the track of where the true emphasis should be. It should never be on the devil, satan or the dragon, serpent, bottomless pit, demons, hell . . . .good grief . .. how easily we derail ourselves from the true message of what God has already accomplished IN us.
Out of time again.
OK, Nathan,
But you're ignoring the fact that a whole doctrine has been built around Hell and if that were not so the Tentmaker Ministry would not exist and we would not be having this conversation.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 03, 2011, 10:43:10 PM
It is refreshing that we got past the fable that adversary/satan is a fallen angel!
I dare say old boy that it has again, just been put on pause. :sigh:
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 03, 2011, 08:57:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2011, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: TaffyBecause it is all in our mind and heart...
No, it's not all in my mind and heart. God is out there, existing independently of me. So is Satan.
Molly God is in You, and you are in Him, He is not dependent on us, but we are not independent from Him
:HeartThrob: :thumbsup: :bgdance: :grin: :icon_king: :dsunny: :happyclap: :happyclap:Amen
What I mean to say is--God exists with or without me or all the people on the face of the earth.
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
We tend to get a little too pushy about who's right or wrong.
Amen (raises hand).
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
Couldn't agree with you more, yet at the same time, how long does it usually take when you're with those groups that you start seeing little differences, little checks in the armor . . .
Agreed. Unity, with our differences, can be difficult.
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
when the mind starts "explaining logically" what it thinks the answer is . . again, spirit get's passed over for flesh and the opportunity for revelation is averted once again.
I question that our whole mind is enmity...the carnal part is, but the mind of Christ at work in us, not so. The mind of Christ must be tied to the Spirit, so not so sure "spiritual thinking" is a bad thing. Now, the challenge is...
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
who's to say that the person that wrote it may have taken liberty of their imagination as to how this all came about.
The Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:20,21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Blessings.
This is a description of the divine council in the holy mountain of God :
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [Job 1]
And this is a prophecy of when we take our rightful positions in said assembly as brothers of Jesus:
I will declare your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly I will praise you. [Psa 22:22]
Replying to Nathan post #164
". . . I guess the question is, is there really "a" group of individuals that are "totally" in agreement with "everything" that they each embrace in their relationship with God at all? "Can" there be such a group? "Should" there be such a group?" Nathan
Yep and the group is revealed in Rev.2 and 3 He who OVERCOMERS
"When the earth was created, God didn't create darkness on it, it just "was". Is there darkness in the spirit realm? I would have to say no. Darkness only pertains to the things of the earth. It is the nature of this realm for darkness to flourish. What Scripture "does" state is, God divided light "from" darkness. When light appears. darkness flees. That's the nature of this realm. So . . .if satan is darkness, he can't be in the spirit realm of God. In fact, did Jesus not say he saw satan fall as lightning to the earth for there was NO PLACE FOUND for him in heaven." Nathan
There is much to be found in darkness, and I do not reason that the adversary/satan is darkness.
Psa 139:12 Even darkness, it is not darkening to You, And the night, as the day, is giving light; Darkness is as light."
Isa 45:3 And I give to you treasures of darkness. And those buried in concealment will I open for you, that you may know that I, Yahweh Elohim, calling you by your name, am the Elohim of Israel."
"It was said that some can see Job plain as day in the literal. Satan can approach God in all his glory where it's all light and no darkness can exist, and he can casually converse with him . . .you would rather have us accept that rather than realize that from Genesis to Revelation it's the same story about the relationship between God and man with Jesus as the centerpiece. There are no other players . . God . . .Adam . . . .and Jesus, the last Adam. Everything else is what goes on "in" that relationship. What goes on "in" man. The story is about how Adam was separated and become bound as a result of his misaligned relationship. And Jesus paying the price for Adam's rebellion so that the relationship between God and Adam could be restored. Satan is what is going on "in" Adam . . .it's all the inner workings of what is going on with in all of us. And how we're all redeemed back to Him." Nathan
I believe that the book of Job is a parable, as I have said before as well, I believe the whole Bible is a parable. Jesus only spoke in parables.
" Satan can approach God in all his glory where it's all light and no darkness can exist, and he can casually converse with him . " Nathan
Where do you get this stuff?
" There are no other players . . God . . .Adam . . . .and Jesus..." Nathan
Yes a true statement.
There have only been two men in the world... man/adam and Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
1Co 15:21 for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
"But when you become distracted by individual pieces of the inner workings, it leads us off the track of where the true emphasis should be. It should never be on the devil, satan or the dragon, serpent, bottomless pit, demons, hell . . . .good grief . .. how easily we derail ourselves from the true message of what God has already accomplished IN us.
"It should never be on the devil, satan or the dragon, serpent, bottomless pit, demons, hell . . . .good grief . ." Nathan
Then dont bring that stuff up, simple.
" how easily we derail ourselves from the true message of what God has already accomplished IN us" Nathan
Now just hold that thought and you wills sleep well and not have to give much thought to the other stuff.....THE TRUE MESSAGE OF WHAT GOD HAS ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED IN US!!!
Now that is the Good News. As Frank Sinatra sang in "New York New York" START SPREADIN THE NEWS!!!!!!! :dsunny: :happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap:
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2011, 12:34:31 AM
This is a description of the divine council in the holy mountain of God :
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [Job 1]
And this is a prophecy of when we take our rightful positions in said assembly as brothers of Jesus:
I will declare your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly I will praise you. [Psa 22:22]
you Know all Things are Played out in the spirit before hand as all is complete before Its Began, being walked out in the earth~, as we the sons[ stars] who sang For Joy~theres More going in these verses Molly then we see with the Natural eye~~ If Im given to see a Clearer Picture and word it aright~ ill come back share~~~#
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 12:10:23 AM
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
We tend to get a little too pushy about who's right or wrong.
Amen (raises hand).
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
Couldn't agree with you more, yet at the same time, how long does it usually take when you're with those groups that you start seeing little differences, little checks in the armor . . .
Agreed. Unity, with our differences, can be difficult.
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
when the mind starts "explaining logically" what it thinks the answer is . . again, spirit get's passed over for flesh and the opportunity for revelation is averted once again.
I question that our whole mind is enmity...the carnal part is, but the mind of Christ at work in us, not so. The mind of Christ must be tied to the Spirit, so not so sure "spiritual thinking" is a bad thing. Now, the challenge is...
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
who's to say that the person that wrote it may have taken liberty of their imagination as to how this all came about.
The Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:20,21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Blessings.
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation."
I understand this verse to mean that any verse that we are given to bring forth, must have at least a witness of two or three other verses that assist the meaning. I used to believe that "one's own interpretation," was just opinion. :2c: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 12:39:14 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2011, 12:34:31 AM
This is a description of the divine council in the holy mountain of God :
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [Job 1]
And this is a prophecy of when we take our rightful positions in said assembly as brothers of Jesus:
I will declare your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly I will praise you. [Psa 22:22]
you Know all Things are Played out in the spirit before hand as all is complete before Its Began, being walked out in the earth~, as we the sons[ stars] who sang For Joy~theres More going in these verses Molly then we see with the Natural eye~~ If Im given to see a Clearer Picture and word it aright~ ill come back share~~~#
I'm thinking we are not those sons mentioned in Job. I don't want to start more discord lol but we will take our position among that group when we receive our full inheritance in Christ. We will replace those wicked sons described in Eph 6 who are currently causing so much trouble in the world during this dark age--the principalities, rulers, and wickedness in high places that we are to wrestle with now.
But, that's me. :sigh:
Quote from: Molly
Well I wouldn't characterize it the way you just did lol, but yes I believe that God was meeting with his divine council [the sons of God] and Satan was one of the group [that word in the Old Testament is a title, like the Prosecutor] and God and Satan had a discussion about Job.
Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described. There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.
But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.
Guess what Molly, I agree with you. I believe Satan is a spiritual being and not our minds. I don't believe Satan is a fallen angel though.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 04, 2011, 12:50:09 AM
Quote from: Molly
Well I wouldn't characterize it the way you just did lol, but yes I believe that God was meeting with his divine council [the sons of God] and Satan was one of the group [that word in the Old Testament is a title, like the Prosecutor] and God and Satan had a discussion about Job.
Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described. There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.
But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.
Guess what Molly, I agree with you. I believe Satan is a spiritual being and not our minds. I don't believe Satan is a fallen angel though.
CHB
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 12:10:23 AM
2 Peter 1:20,21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I had some questions about this verse, the "prophecy" part, so did some checking.
prophecy; propheteia, Gr. a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden - The New Testament Greek Lexicon
A suppose a prophet never said:
"Oops. :laughing7: "
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 02:02:22 AM
A suppose a prophet never said:
"Oops. :laughing7: "
:thumbsup: I'd suppose you're probably right. :)
Someone once said, "I'm not a prophet or the son of a prophet.."
That might be a good thread, actually. There are tons of people all over the internet and in churches claiming to be prophets (you know this) - many with all kinds of varying opinions, many predicting things that don't come to pass. I'll admit I'm pretty cautious and believe in "test all things"...
well, again, would probably make a good thread some day...
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 01:51:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 12:10:23 AM
2 Peter 1:20,21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I had some questions about this verse, the "prophecy" part, so did some checking.
prophecy; propheteia, Gr. a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden - The New Testament Greek Lexicon
:thumbsup:
to Prophey is to BEAR Testimony To HIM bearing witnes of the LOVE and comfort HE to ~# ALL prophecy is God Gven passed on by spirit to spirit# hence why Prophecy is of No PRIVATE interpretaion~~ Paul speaks of the HARP= the SOUND= Voice} the harp is HE who unfolds the Parables HE SPOKE being LIFE~# Davids Harp had 22 strings, each pertaining to a Letter of the Hebrew alphabet within ALL TRUTH is Given~ 22 is also the Number of LIGHT{ Revelation\Love and Comfort] when David Played the HARP to saul ITS COMFORTED HIS SOUL~~ the Bowls et all on the candlesticks In the Holy Place also Numbered 22~ HE Being the VERY lLIGHT[ of the world] IN us who WORK and Love we ARE~~ the sea of GALLILIE is called the SEA OF THE harp~ its shaped like a HARP, The Lord CIRCLED[ love is a Circle[ has No beginning nor END] for his 3.5 yr Ministry speaking in Parables the LOVE and Life of the Kingdom HE IS~
COINCIDENCE~MI think Not~ :icon_flower:
yet another that I think you're pulling out of context. Because "i'm" seeing things from a different perspective, you imply that I am going against the Scripture by personally interpreting something that you can't see for yourself.
So . . .you quote a passage that has nothing to do with what I'm saying and you wrap it in a package that suggests I'm guilty of it's implications. Who said anything about interpreting prophecies? Scripture interpets itself. Keep things in context.
New Living Translation.
19 Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines[g] in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,[h] 21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God
The message isn't about what we see in Scripture, it's about realizing the messages in Scripture were not of men, but of God.
Even the one's giving the prophecies didn't understand much of what they were saying . . .yet they still spoke the words.
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 01:51:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 12:10:23 AM
2 Peter 1:20,21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I had some questions about this verse, the "prophecy" part, so did some checking.
prophecy; propheteia, Gr. a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden - The New Testament Greek Lexicon
Thanks :bigGrin:
Quote from: Nathan on November 04, 2011, 02:08:01 AM
yet another that I think you're pulling out of context. Because "i'm" seeing things from a different perspective, you imply that I am going against the Scripture by personally interpreting something that you can't see for yourself.
So . . .you quote a passage that has nothing to do with what I'm saying and you wrap it in a package that suggests I'm guilty of it's implications. Who said anything about interpreting prophecies? Scripture interpets itself. Keep things in context.
New Living Translation.
19 Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines[g] in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,[h] 21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God
The message isn't about what we see in Scripture, it's about realizing the messages in Scripture were not of men, but of God.
Even the one's giving the prophecies didn't understand much of what they were saying . . .yet they still spoke the words.
You state that it's simply that you see something from a different perspective and that "you imply that I am going against the Scripture by personally interpreting something that you can't see for yourself". I'll admit I miss a lot, I still have much to learn and grow. Maybe you missed my follow-up post regarding the definition of prophecy, or perhaps you'd dismiss it anyway, but maybe not. :dontknow: This; "The message isn't about what we see in Scripture, it's about realizing the messages in Scripture were not of men, but of God" is exactly the point.
However, earlier, by your own words you indicated you believe scripture can be just embellished by the author. You appear to be using that statement and thought process as a basis to perhaps support your beliefs on this topic. You said the words ("who's to say that the person that wrote it may have taken liberty of their imagination as to how this all came about"), I responded. You asked a question (although likely rhetorical), I answered, "the Holy Spirit"; as I believe the Author is the Holy Spirit, so it's not some person's imagination.
Look, I'm not your enemy. I hope you continue to grow in grace and knowledge, and I pray for you and will continue to do so, Lord willing. I don't want to harm you spiritually, and if I have, please forgive me. But hopefully none of us have reached the place where we only hear what we want to hear, or only listen to what people say that agree with us and just automatically accept what we say -
including me. If we put something out there, we/I should probably expect it to be tested, considered, and perhaps commented on or questioned.
I actually have stated over and over I agree with much of your thoughts and what you share, but it might be best if from here on I really make more of an effort to avoid commenting on your posts. Great blessings.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2011, 02:08:21 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 01:51:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 12:10:23 AM
2 Peter 1:20,21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I had some questions about this verse, the "prophecy" part, so did some checking.
prophecy; propheteia, Gr. a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden - The New Testament Greek Lexicon
Thanks :bigGrin:
You're welcome. :bigGrin:
im with you Nat ~
Lucifer being Adam~# and its seem some still perceive the LOF of ANOTHER DEATH~ but that would Mean Satan Dies~ right?# or does it mean theres YET another resurrection?
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 02:07:12 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 01:51:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 12:10:23 AM
2 Peter 1:20,21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I had some questions about this verse, the "prophecy" part, so did some checking.
prophecy; propheteia, Gr. a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden - The New Testament Greek Lexicon
:thumbsup:
to Prophey is to BEAR Testimony To HIM bearing witnes of the LOVE and comfort HE to ~# ALL prophecy is God Gven passed on by spirit to spirit# hence why Prophecy is of No PRIVATE interpretaion~~ Paul speaks of the HARP= the SOUND= Voice} the harp is HE who unfolds the Parables HE SPOKE being LIFE~# Davids Harp had 22 strings, each pertaining to a Letter of the Hebrew alphabet within ALL TRUTH is Given~ 22 is also the Number of LIGHT{ Revelation\Love and Comfort] when David Played the HARP to saul ITS COMFORTED HIS SOUL~~ the Bowls et all on the candlesticks In the Holy Place also Numbered 22~ HE Being the VERY lLIGHT[ of the world] IN us who WORK and Love we ARE~~ the sea of GALLILIE is called the SEA OF THE harp~ its shaped like a HARP, The Lord CIRCLED[ love is a Circle[ has No beginning nor END] for his 3.5 yr Ministry speaking in Parables the LOVE and Life of the Kingdom HE IS~
COINCIDENCE~MI think Not~ :icon_flower:
That's a beautiful little gem, Taffy. I didn't know the harp had 22 strings. It really is a new song. language set to music, language that is music...
Isaiah 42:10
Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2011, 02:37:55 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 02:07:12 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 01:51:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 12:10:23 AM
2 Peter 1:20,21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I had some questions about this verse, the "prophecy" part, so did some checking.
prophecy; propheteia, Gr. a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden - The New Testament Greek Lexicon
:thumbsup:
to Prophey is to BEAR Testimony To HIM bearing witnes of the LOVE and comfort HE to ~# ALL prophecy is God Gven passed on by spirit to spirit# hence why Prophecy is of No PRIVATE interpretaion~~ Paul speaks of the HARP= the SOUND= Voice} the harp is HE who unfolds the Parables HE SPOKE being LIFE~# Davids Harp had 22 strings, each pertaining to a Letter of the Hebrew alphabet within ALL TRUTH is Given~ 22 is also the Number of LIGHT{ Revelation\Love and Comfort] when David Played the HARP to saul ITS COMFORTED HIS SOUL~~ the Bowls et all on the candlesticks In the Holy Place also Numbered 22~ HE Being the VERY lLIGHT[ of the world] IN us who WORK and Love we ARE~~ the sea of GALLILIE is called the SEA OF THE harp~ its shaped like a HARP, The Lord CIRCLED[ love is a Circle[ has No beginning nor END] for his 3.5 yr Ministry speaking in Parables the LOVE and Life of the Kingdom HE IS~
COINCIDENCE~MI think Not~ :icon_flower:
That's a beautiful little gem, Taffy. I didn't know the harp had 22 strings. It really is a new song. language set to music, language that is music...
Isaiah 42:10
Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
I will Add Thats is to be SAID that Davids Harp had 22 strings~ :icon_flower:
Ya all just dont want to understand 2 Pet. 1:20 :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2011, 03:00:41 AM
Ya all just dont want to understand 2 Pet. 1:20 :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 03:02:31 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2011, 03:00:41 AM
Ya all just dont want to understand 2 Pet. 1:20 :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
to confirm my last Post Read the next verse Micah~
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
That does not offer what verse 20 speaks of. And there are guitars with 7 strings.
King David's Lyre, to soothe the savage breast. :icon_joker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKMk1nj81w8
Remember that the strings go last — the singers go first!
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2011, 03:44:45 AM
King David's Lyre, to sooth the savage beast. :icon_joker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKMk1nj81w8
Sings a NEW song Molly and DANCE to the TUNE\sound \Voice of LOVE~ :HeartThrob:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PnqUu46-8w&feature=related
All The Weights of The Bag Are His Work
"A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are His work." Proverbs 16:11.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:10:21 AM
All The Weights of The Bag Are His Work
"A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are His work." Proverbs 16:11.
Selah~ To weigh amid the Balances of Truth~ mercy and compassion is the Balance of Judgment\LOVE~
Selah~
THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT!
Selah!
:icon_flower:
The future is behind us!
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:18:18 AM
:icon_flower:
The future is behind us!
:icon_flower:
NOWS theres a QUOTE~ yes AMEN~ :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: OPPS IM DANCING~
It really is uncanny how Hollywood gets movies out with spiritual implications long before Its time!
I wish Cardinal was online!
She's got it bagged already.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:24:39 AM
It really is uncanny how Hollywood gets movies out with spiritual implications long before Its time!
I wish Cardinal was online!
She's got it bagged already.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 04:20:41 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:18:18 AM
:icon_flower:
The future is behind us!
:icon_flower:
NOWS theres a QUOTE~ yes AMEN~ :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: OPPS IM DANCING~
OH DEAR LOVING BELOVED TAFFY!
THAT"S WHY HE TELLS US TO TURN TURN TURN.
I LOVE YOU!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:26:41 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 04:20:41 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:18:18 AM
:icon_flower:
The future is behind us!
:icon_flower:
NOWS theres a QUOTE~ yes AMEN~ :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: OPPS IM DANCING~
OH DEAR LOVING BELOVED TAFFY!
THAT"S WHY HE TELLS US TO TURN TURN TURN.
I LOVE YOU!
Love you to Brother without Doubt as I do ALL~~If we\ALL were to see this and KNOW~~Its awesome~~Can we really Grasp the Stars we are who SANG for JOY is US~?~ thatt we were KNOWN before Creation? its a Done Deal~ Im seing this In Job 1- 6 but wont speak on It till I see it Clearly### as I beginning to see these SONs were Jobs Three accussers~~ Ill say No more Brother## Until HE shows Me more~
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:18:18 AM
:icon_flower:
The future is behind us!
:icon_flower:
:happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap:
Micah! My Brothers are my glory!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:43:28 AM
Micah! My Brothers are my glory!
as WE ARE his GLORY# For we are""""""""ONE"""""""""""" , maybe its time to wake people and KNOW who we really ARE~ :icon_flower:
The Portion!
OK , Taffy!
I AM A SON OF GOD!
BEHOLD!
IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN OF ME IN THE SCRIPTURES!
...C'Mon Molly...
Say it!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:52:43 AM
OK , Taffy!
I AM A SON OF GOD!
BEHOLD!
IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN OF ME IN THE SCRIPTURES!
WE always WERE brother~I dont see a Portion I see the FULNESSof HIS MEASURE we are#~ we are walking this OUT~ the Reality has Been completed~~ we are the Shadow if you will ,nothingis done LEST it be Done In Him before it Began~~
what Im saying Brother I dont see past Tense## as you say the Furture is Behind US
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 04:56:58 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:52:43 AM
OK , Taffy!
I AM A SON OF GOD!
BEHOLD!
IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN OF ME IN THE SCRIPTURES!
WE always WERE brother~I dont see a Portion I see the FULNESSof HIS MEASURE we are# # we are walking this OUT~ the Reality has Been completed~~ we are the Shadow if you will nothing, is done LEST it be Done In Him before it Began~~
"we are
the Shadow if you will nothing"
Humm..... shadow, is that not darkness or close to what darkness is. And you say darkness is bad. Hummm.
Yes, it is sarcasim, but then are we to follow what thinking? Either darkness i.e. shadow is good or it is not good?
This is how I get befuddled.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2011, 05:08:45 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 04:56:58 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:52:43 AM
OK , Taffy!
I AM A SON OF GOD!
BEHOLD!
IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN OF ME IN THE SCRIPTURES!
WE always WERE brother~I dont see a Portion I see the FULNESSof HIS MEASURE we are# # we are walking this OUT~ the Reality has Been completed~~ we are the Shadow if you will nothing, is done LEST it be Done In Him before it Began~~
"we are the Shadow if you will nothing"
Humm..... shadow, is that not darkness or close to what darkness is. And you say darkness is bad. Hummm.
Yes, it is sarcasim, but then are we to follow what thinking? Either darkness i.e. shadow is good or it is not good?
This is how I get befuddled.
"IF YOU WILL"## ~ Micah Please read the words which precede this~ it may not be the best discrption~ hence """IF YOU WILL""The reality is DONE## we are walking this OUT upon the EARTH, ITS A DONE DEAL Done eons ago~~
do you ever look to the Point or or are Just Given to Nit Pick~ ~ by all means have your point Micah#### your point on anOther thread was Your a Scholar Come Hebrew Right , so could you Just conclude My last Posting on the Mary Thread~~? but if want to continue to PLAY Micah~~ please excuse me from Now On If I Ignore you~
By looking, you can only see the past.
The future can only be seen by looking back.
It is the Hebrew way of writing of what we understand.
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 05:15:59 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2011, 05:08:45 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 04:56:58 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:52:43 AM
OK , Taffy!
I AM A SON OF GOD!
BEHOLD!
IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN OF ME IN THE SCRIPTURES!
WE always WERE brother~I dont see a Portion I see the FULNESSof HIS MEASURE we are# # we are walking this OUT~ the Reality has Been completed~~ we are the Shadow if you will nothing, is done LEST it be Done In Him before it Began~~
"we are the Shadow if you will nothing"
Humm..... shadow, is that not darkness or close to what darkness is. And you say darkness is bad. Hummm.
Yes, it is sarcasim, but then are we to follow what thinking? Either darkness i.e. shadow is good or it is not good?
This is how I get befuddled.
"IF YOU WILL"## ~ Micah Please read the words which precede this~ it may not be the best discrption~ hence """IF YOU WILL""The reality is DONE## we are walking this OUT upon the EARTH, ITS A DONE DEAL Done eons ago~~
do you ever look to the Point or or are Just Given to Nit Pick~ ~ by all means have your point Micah#### your point on anOther thread was Your a Scholar Come Hebrew Right , so could you Just conclude My last Posting on the Mary Thread~~? but if want to continue to PLAY Micah~~ please excuse me from Now On If I Ignore you~
""IF YOU WILL"## ~ Micah Please read the words which precede this~ it may not be the best discrption~ hence """IF YOU WILL""The reality is DONE## we are walking this OUT upon the EARTH, ITS A DONE DEAL Done eons ago~~"
Got that! :thumbsup:
"do you ever look to the Point or or are Just Given to Nit Pick~ ~ by all means have your point Micah#### your point on anOther thread was Your a Scholar Come Hebrew Right , so could you Just conclude My last Posting on the Mary Thread~~? but if want to continue to PLAY Micah~~ please excuse me from Now On If I Ignore you~"
You implied the scholar thing, not i. My point is most of our threads start out and then go running for ones own point and almost leads to teaching a doctrine.
I dont mind playing when the game is on, and may I add if you "from now on" ignore me, you will not feel all that good.
I just do not and most of the time cannot see where you get your stuff. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on November 04, 2011, 02:11:55 AM
Quote from: Nathan on November 04, 2011, 02:08:01 AM
yet another that I think you're pulling out of context. Because "i'm" seeing things from a different perspective, you imply that I am going against the Scripture by personally interpreting something that you can't see for yourself.
So . . .you quote a passage that has nothing to do with what I'm saying and you wrap it in a package that suggests I'm guilty of it's implications. Who said anything about interpreting prophecies? Scripture interpets itself. Keep things in context.
New Living Translation.
19 Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines[g] in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,[h] 21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God
The message isn't about what we see in Scripture, it's about realizing the messages in Scripture were not of men, but of God.
Even the one's giving the prophecies didn't understand much of what they were saying . . .yet they still spoke the words.
You state that it's simply that you see something from a different perspective and that "you imply that I am going against the Scripture by personally interpreting something that you can't see for yourself". I'll admit I miss a lot, I still have much to learn and grow. Maybe you missed my follow-up post regarding the definition of prophecy, or perhaps you'd dismiss it anyway, but maybe not. :dontknow: This; "The message isn't about what we see in Scripture, it's about realizing the messages in Scripture were not of men, but of God" is exactly the point.
However, earlier, by your own words you indicated you believe scripture can be just embellished by the author. You appear to be using that statement and thought process as a basis to perhaps support your beliefs on this topic. You said the words ("who's to say that the person that wrote it may have taken liberty of their imagination as to how this all came about"), I responded. You asked a question (although likely rhetorical), I answered, "the Holy Spirit"; as I believe the Author is the Holy Spirit, so it's not some person's imagination.
Look, I'm not your enemy. I hope you continue to grow in grace and knowledge, and I pray for you and will continue to do so, Lord willing. I don't want to harm you spiritually, and if I have, please forgive me. But hopefully none of us have reached the place where we only hear what we want to hear, or only listen to what people say that agree with us and just automatically accept what we say - including me. If we put something out there, we/I should probably expect it to be tested, considered, and perhaps commented on or questioned.
I actually have stated over and over I agree with much of your thoughts and what you share, but it might be best if from here on I really make more of an effort to avoid commenting on your posts. Great blessings.
This wasn't an attack against you Jabcat, if you took it that way, I seriously apologize. But my point is, people who use this Peter passage against each other because they can't grasp what's being said are taking it out of context. My comments about the author in Job taking some liberties was referring to the idea that the author could possibly have been presenting his own imagination on the goings on in heaven that led up to Job's testing. It doesn't say "And the heavens opened up to me and I saw . . ." Ezekiel had that happen a lot. So to embrace the idea that it is supposed to be seen as exactly how heaven operates . . .not so sure . . .
That's one . .. .second is the fact that Peter is addressing PROPHECIES . . .that are not of private interpretation and for me, the description of the goings on between satan and God is not a prophecy. So I do not see how 2 Peter applies to that either . .which is also why I said it's being taken out of context.
I'm not ignorant to the fact that my comments tend to stir things up in people considerably. I'm not doing this in belligerence, but I "am" doing some of this on purpose. Not to stir up trouble for the sake of stirring up trouble, but to purposefully stretch those who are willing to stretch. Please don't resent me for doing so, but if you notice the pattern here, none of what I've shared is to enforce what already is. But instead, I'm usually trying to break away from what already is and bring awareness to what is yet to be seen. It's not meant to discredit what already "is" being seen, but I feel if we're happy with what we think we know, we'll not be hungry for what we don't know.
In God's infinity, he "is" the end of all things. But we ourselves are not infinite which is to say there's no end to our growth in him. One experience in God will always lead to another. What can be seen will always lead us into the depths of what is still unseen to us. I "know" what I share brings a potential of resistance with it, but that's just the nature of the beast. I'm not here to judge, just to share my end of things, just as others are here to do the same. If we read 1 Corinthians 12 where it speaks about the gifts of the spirit, we'd see that God isn't trying to make everyone the same, he's merely combining the differences we have with each other and he's unifying them . . .bonding them into one body . .. yet all we tend to focus on is the fact that we are different.
QuoteYou implied the scholar thing, not i. My point is most of our threads start out and then go running for ones own point and almost leads to teaching a doctrine.
I dont mind playing when the game is on, and may I add if you "from now on" ignore me, you will not feel all that good.
I just do not and most of the time cannot see where you get your stuff
Micah ~I haveno desire to fall out with anyone Micah~ But when we come to the Point one is just mimicking or in a word you used sacarsm , It becomes claer you have no interest in a response to your question~
By all means my friend state and believe what you will ~ I like others share what Im given to see and sometimes we dont see EYE TO EYE## but thats cool Too~~
I believe By now even from 6 mths back its evident Ive fallen off a branch a seriously damged my head~~# I believe youve made your point many times~~~
Shalom~ :icon_flower:
the author could possibly have been presenting his own imagination on the goings on in heaven that led up to Job's testing.
The spiritual Realm being laid out before the Visible~these SONS could well be Jobs Friends , Jobs accusers~
I can see that. what's bound in heaven is bound in earth,what's loosed in heaven,is loosed on earth.
Quote from: sheila on November 04, 2011, 04:08:28 PM
I can see that. what's bound in heaven is bound in earth,what's loosed in heaven,is loosed on earth.
Uz means Take advice, Consultation and Nothing can done is the spiritual or visible Realm without the approval OF THE lORD# Amen~
Quote from: sheila on November 04, 2011, 04:08:28 PM
I can see that. what's bound in heaven is bound in earth,what's loosed in heaven,is loosed on earth.
Even so, wouldn't that mean that Job's friends are just a shadow of the reality which is in heaven?
That is, Job's friends are not the sons of God, but the shadow of the ones in heaven?
If those in heaven are evil, their likeness will be loosed on earth.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2011, 04:17:58 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 04, 2011, 04:08:28 PM
I can see that. what's bound in heaven is bound in earth,what's loosed in heaven,is loosed on earth.
Even so, wouldn't that mean that Job's friends are just a shadow of the reality which is in heaven?
That is, Job's friends are not the sons of God, but the shadow of the ones in heaven?
If those in heaven are evil, their likeness will be loosed on earth.
Molly Im seeing the future as the past~ Again when Imgiven to word this simply, Ill be happy to share~
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 03:43:36 PM
QuoteYou implied the scholar thing, not i. My point is most of our threads start out and then go running for ones own point and almost leads to teaching a doctrine.
I dont mind playing when the game is on, and may I add if you "from now on" ignore me, you will not feel all that good.
I just do not and most of the time cannot see where you get your stuff
Micah ~I haveno desire to fall out with anyone Micah~ But when we come to the Point one is just mimicking or in a word you used sacarsm , It becomes claer you have no interest in a response to your question~
By all means my friend state and believe what you will ~ I like others share what Im given to see and sometimes we dont see EYE TO EYE## but thats cool Too~~
I believe By now even from 6 mths back its evident Ive fallen off a branch a seriously damged my head~~# I believe youve made your point many times~~~
Shalom~ :icon_flower:
May I just say this, yeah" I" have fallen out of the "tree" and off the "branch" and off the "wagon" and just up until recently I felt and even made myself stay on the "ground," because the word "lost" kept erupting in my "mind" and that is where I should be....there was no help. Well, I was given to read:
Luk 15:4 `What man of you having a hundred sheep, and having lost one out of them, doth not
leave behind the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go on after the lost one,
till he may find it? Luk 15:5
and having found, he doth lay it on his shoulders rejoicing,
Luk 15:6 and having come to the house, he doth call together the friends and the neighbours, saying to them,
Rejoice with me, because I found my sheep--the lost one. I had at my "re-newing", at least in my "mind," "I" felt that this was what "I" would do: Php 3:14 to the mark I pursue for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
So now "i" rest in the Lord Jesus Christ. i have fallen and yes have brusied my head but i get comfort knowing
Psa 90:3
Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men. and know that Psa 103:13 As a father hath mercy on sons, Jehovah hath mercy on those fearing Him.
Psa 103:14
For He hath known our frame, Remembering that we are dust. So, here i am..
.Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.
Mic 7:9 The indignation of Jehovah I do bear, For I have sinned against Him, Till that He doth plead my cause, And hath executed my judgment, He doth bring me forth to the light, I look on His righteousness.
So thank you Taffy for all that you have offered and being fortunate enough not to have known these pitfalls in your walk.
The Lord bless you as i know He has and will continue to bless me.Psa 103:15 Mortal man! as grass are his days, As a flower of the field so he flourisheth;
Psa 103:16 For a wind hath passed over it, and it is not, And its place doth not discern it any more.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :icon_flower: :cloud9: :dsunny: :happyclap: :happyclap: :bigGrin: :icon_king:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 05, 2011, 12:15:31 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 03:43:36 PM
QuoteYou implied the scholar thing, not i. My point is most of our threads start out and then go running for ones own point and almost leads to teaching a doctrine.
I dont mind playing when the game is on, and may I add if you "from now on" ignore me, you will not feel all that good.
I just do not and most of the time cannot see where you get your stuff
Micah ~I haveno desire to fall out with anyone Micah~ But when we come to the Point one is just mimicking or in a word you used sacarsm , It becomes claer you have no interest in a response to your question~
By all means my friend state and believe what you will ~ I like others share what Im given to see and sometimes we dont see EYE TO EYE## but thats cool Too~~
I believe By now even from 6 mths back its evident Ive fallen off a branch a seriously damged my head~~# I believe youve made your point many times~~~
Shalom~ :icon_flower:
May I just say this, yeah" I" have fallen out of the "tree" and off the "branch" and off the "wagon" and just up until recently I felt and even made myself stay on the "ground," because the word "lost" kept erupting in my "mind" and that is where I should be....there was no help. Well, I was given to read:
Luk 15:4 `What man of you having a hundred sheep, and having lost one out of them, doth not leave behind the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go on after the lost one, till he may find it?
Luk 15:5 and having found, he doth lay it on his shoulders rejoicing,
Luk 15:6 and having come to the house, he doth call together the friends and the neighbours, saying to them, Rejoice with me, because I found my sheep--the lost one.
I had at my "re-newing", at least in my "mind," "I" felt that this was what "I" would do: Php 3:14 to the mark I pursue for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
So now "i" rest in the Lord Jesus Christ. i have fallen and yes have brusied my head but i get comfort knowing
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men.
and know that Psa 103:13 As a father hath mercy on sons, Jehovah hath mercy on those fearing Him.
Psa 103:14 For He hath known our frame, Remembering that we are dust.
So, here i am...Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.
Mic 7:9 The indignation of Jehovah I do bear, For I have sinned against Him, Till that He doth plead my cause, And hath executed my judgment, He doth bring me forth to the light, I look on His righteousness.
So thank you Taffy for all that you have offered and being fortunate enough not to have known these pitfalls in your walk.
The Lord bless you as i know He has and will continue to bless me.
Psa 103:15 Mortal man! as grass are his days, As a flower of the field so he flourisheth;
Psa 103:16 For a wind hath passed over it, and it is not, And its place doth not discern it any more.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :icon_flower: :cloud9: :dsunny: :happyclap: :happyclap: :bigGrin: :icon_king:
MICAH THE Person who fell from His perch[ Tree] was ME in Reference - Recal your comment about Roots and a NOT buying MY TREE~~~ :dontknow: THERES WAS nO JUDGMENT MADE OF YOU
I was given to say~you made your POINT~Have Great Day Micah~ :HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2011, 07:20:00 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 01, 2011, 03:18:38 PM
the word demon (daimon) originally meant a human who had been deified, it was basically ancestor worship.
The Hebrew word translated "demons" in verse 17 (שׁד, seed)
Conclusion
In summary, there is no Hebrew word that can be translated as "demons" to communicate what that word implies in English. There does lie behind the Old Testament conception a basic animistic and mythological world view with which the Israelites are in dialog. But they are using the terms and in dialog with such conceptions, not because they accept them or are dominated by them, but precisely to deny the validity of such mythological world views. The biblical writers use the terms not to accept what they represent but precisely to reject it. It is clear that there was a popular belief among Israelites in such things as ghosts and the mythological creatures of Canaanite religion. But the biblical tradition as it stands moves beyond such popular mythological conceptions to a vision of a Creator, a sovereign God who is in sole control of the world, and does not share that with anything or anyone. So again, there are no "demons" in the Old Testament, only idols that are rejected as "no-gods."
http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html
Excellent work! Excellent! :HeartThrob: :cloud9: :icon_flower:
:cloud9: My :2c: Sorry, not wanting to offend here, but I have to bring a report from the other "side" of this discussion. I read the article given, and they are overlooking one thing: Paul also said it was not the idol that was anything, but rather the SPIRIT behind the idol.
Those "idols" and "gods" they sacrificed to, had as their root, demons. Having been in the presence of many in the 2+ years He had me walking in that arena of experience, and as such I will never be "reasoned" out of believing they are real and are what is intended in the verses, nor that the Lord didn't know what He was casting out.
They are not a figment of imaginations, either. It is truly impossible to describe the evil that permeates their presence in a room if you've never experienced it, something that is far beyond a man's ability to duplicate or mimic. Again, for what it's worth....my :2c: Blessings....
You underestimate the power of the imaginations of men. I do not speak of the imaginations that has been "offered" as evil by men, but the very evil that men have power to bring forth. I do not mean to offend either, but should there be any "demons," man has the power, through the adversary to conjure up and believe and fear what man has brought forth.
The carnal mind is not the adversary or as some call satan, yet the carnal mind is very much capable to bring forth evil, whether it be deliberate or unknowingly, through how man thinks(intellect.) We read it in the garden, Gen.3 when mans weakness was challenged.
I reasons to me that we want to minimize the power that is able to come from or through the carnal mind, but yet we want to maximize it when we pray and desire the Lord to use the mind of Christ. Is it not the same mind, but only changed?
Deuteronomy 32
16 They made him jealous with strange gods, with abhorrent things they provoked him. 17 They sacrificed to demons, not God, to deities they had never known, to new ones recently arrived, whom your ancestors had not feared
Deleted by Micah
Deleted by Micah
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 11, 2011, 06:07:25 AM
Deuteronomy 32:16
(ASV) They moved him to jealousy with strange gods; With abominations provoked they him to anger.
(CLV) They made Him jealous with alien gods, with abhorrences they provoked Him to vexation.
(KJV) They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
(Rotherham) They moved him to jealousy with foreign gods ,—With abominations, angered they him:
(YLT) They make Him zealous with strangers, With abominations they make Him angry.
More?
What's your point? That scripture couldn't be any clearer-- strange gods, demons, and deities are being worshipped by the Israelites.
Deleted by Micah.
I see that I have nothing to say about the subject. :HeartThrob:
No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. [1 Cor 10:20]
Psalm 106:37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.