Death, Hades and Abaddon's sting

[WhiteWings]

1/3 of the angels are fallen. There are many angels but imo only 6 archangels. 1/3 =2 of them fell.
One is very well known. Satan.
The other one, the angel of life now known as the angel of death or Abaddon is somehow always in the background. Yet he has extreme power.
He holds the keys of the grave.
In Greek mythology Hades was a god. But also the name of his kingdom. Realm of the dead if you wish to call it that way. I think Hades (the god) is a Greek translation of Abaddon.
Death where is your sting isn't about the concept of death (thrown into LoF) but the angel of death itself. Abaddon and satan have been messing around with evil from the start of Genesis. They were, and still are, the leaders of the 1/3 of lower class angel that fell.

:2c:

[ded2daworld]

Arche means first or primary so perhaps the angels were created in 2 stages. They can't all be first but a certain number can be in the first group. Plus, having first angels autamatically implies other angels. Just as 1/3 falling implies that 2/3rds didn't. :Peace2:

[BWST]

He holds the keys of the grave.

Interesting stuff.  I don't think he holds the keys to the grave anymore.

Rev 1:17,18 "...Fear not, I am the first and the last,and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades."

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, Jesus reclaimed the keys. I think it's safe to say not everyone agrees Jesus actually uses the keys right now.
If death is just a step to the after-life then Jesus uses the keys right now.
But if the dead stay dead for (many) years until the Revelation resurrections then obviously Jesus isn't using the keys right now.

BTW why plural?
KeyS instead of key.
Does it hint at something deeper? Like a key for each resurrection/harvest?
Something else?

[sheila]

what He shuts,no-one can open,and what He opens,no-one can shut..t me this speaks of whether the grave or,the heavens

   He says...I AM THE RESURRECTION...surely this speaks of He who has the keys to the grave......

   the hour will come when all who are in the graves..will hear the voice of the son of God and come forth......

   if we see our clay vessel [body of death] as a grave...we can see Him calling forth the wicked out of it[evil spirits]

  and also the righteous[men as dead bones that are raised up to live/life..and bear His image........can these dead bones live=

   a stricken spirit is dryness to the bones.

    I am the resurrection....He is also the 'way" back to the Father.   Lying evil spirits,who work false signs and miracle's

  to deceive the people, will claim...Lord,Lord,did we not...thus qnd thus..and He will say..'I don't know you"2Thess 2;9

 

[WhiteWings]

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


From Adam to Moses. Not from Adam to Christ....
Moses wrote the Torah.

[lomarah]

That verse is emphasizing the fact that even though there was no written law at that time, death still reigned. It doesn't mean that death stopped reigning after Moses, as a matter of fact it is clearly stated in the following verses that life is available through Jesus the Christ, which would stand to reason that death did indeed reign until Christ. There is a direct parallel between Adam/death and Christ/life. :2c:

[sheila]

death reigned from Adam to Moses..because Michael announced to satan..when contending

over Moses body..'The Lord rebuke you,satan" and Moses body was hidden...guess where Moses'

body was hidden?  In Christ.....  Rev 15;3..are singing the song of Moses......

  conceal me in the grave,til your wrath be past.....the righteous are taken away and no one

takes it to heart..they rest in the grave to be spared the coming evil.

    Jesus Christ,firstborn of the dead....He was assigned a grave with the wicked

[joeteekay]

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


From Adam to Moses. Not from Adam to Christ....
Moses wrote the Torah.

So who are those that have not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression - SINCE ALL HAVE SINNED.
Similitude? Different type of sin/ transgression? We are sinful flesh and we do transgress God's commands.
:dontknow:

[FreeAtLast]

May I kindly ask where in the scriptures do you find 1/3rd of angels falling and even the event of the so call fall of Satan?

I have studied this over the last year and cant find it anywhere in the scriptures  :dsunny: :dsunny:


some tradition is still holding on to us and want let go  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

This does not refer to the 1/3 of the angels thing, but Jesus seemed to think Satan fell. :o)

[Seth]

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


From Adam to Moses. Not from Adam to Christ....
Moses wrote the Torah.

The fact that he says "From Adam to Moses" does not mean that death did nor reign also after Moses. I believe Paul is letting them know that not only was the Law a ministration of death, itself, he ADDS the time between Adam and Moses.

As long as carnality rules the mind, death is reigning in one's being. We reign in life by accessing grace through faith unto freedom from death.

[FreeAtLast]

He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

This does not refer to the 1/3 of the angels thing, but Jesus seemed to think Satan fell. :o)

He also called peter Satan
the old testament even refers to God as Satan--read about when david numbered the people and sinned--1 scripture has it as God and the very same story in another book has it as Satan---cant remember the places and short of time--just look up Satan in concordance ---Satan is only in the old testament a hand full of times---in Job and couple of other places the word Satan in there.

no where in the book of moses(all 5)do you even find a hint of a so called Satan---now do you think the father would have warned his children by Moses to be aware of such a one ?nor even in the whole bible do you even find anything referring to 1/3 angels falling ?

When he called Peter Satan---do you think Satan took control of him ?

for times sake--when you do a deep word study(and that's all Satan is is a word  not a name for 1 same person)the word Satan comes from ha-satan and is a word denoting adversary.

as for the statement of falling from heaven--that same term is used in old testament for the King of Babylon(which was a man(Nebuchadnezzar)and denotes a fall from the glory and honor that had been given him before men(in an instant it was all lost when he fell to the ground as a wild beast)because he became prideful .

that was just 1 example--there are more in the old testament of the phrases fall from heaven and cast down to hell or the earth---never meant literally from the heavens and down to the earth---but was spiritual in meaning.

the enemy always has been men---men are the ones the father destroyed in the flood because of their wickedness--no mention of a fallen angel destroyed in that time.

would the father wipe men off the face of the earth because of their wickedness and leave the one who caused all the problem to begin with---just to do the same thing over?? :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

just a few thoughts imo that don't even scratch the surface of this most misunderstood subject.

[eaglesway]

He could have been calling Peter Satan, as you say- but I think He was addressing the spirit that was wagging Peter's tongue, or making an object lesson to Peter, in whom, perhaps, the desire to be exalted was manifesting in his dissapointment that Jesus was going to be crucified, rather than ride into Jerusalem at the head of some army with Peter at His right hand.

The argument you make about the flood makes sense within a certain perspective, but it doesnt jive with the scriptures for me, and I draw my logic from them.

[FreeAtLast]

got a little more time now to share things that are imo of scriptures  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Concerning Peter when he was labeled with that awful tag of Satan--Peter was like the rest of the jews that believed in the coming redeemer to come and set up a kingdom on the earth(physical).

So when The Son told peter that he was going to die---this to Peter drew a red flag---HOLD ON was peter's thinking--no no peter said--you cant die---you must set up the kingdom and deliver the people---so Peter took it upon himself to rebuke The Son--- :eek:

And what was The Son's reply?? Get thee behind me Satan(Adversary)The Son was saying to peter--you have become an adversary in the Father's Way because of the false ideas that he and the rest of the jews had concerning setting up the kingdom.

The red Dragon was labeled as Satan(Adversary)was this a real dragon ??  it denoted the Roman Empire in their time(imo)

Beholding Satan being cast from heaven--The Son said this after the disciples came back to him and were excited that they were able to cast out demons and such
the Satan here(imo)was the High Priest and his kingdom of that day that was about to fall from its glory(and did just that in 70 ad when the Roman empire destroyed the city,temple,and killed over 1 million jews)Satan had fallen from heaven--and a new High Priest and King and Kingdom were Reigning!!!

The High priest and his angels(messengers)were the ones who persecuted the church in that day--that's why it was stated that they wrestled with principalities and powers in high places and not just with normal men(flesh and blood)--the High Priest was set up by the Father and was the power in that day.
Notice we cant say the same thing they did because we are in another AGE than they were in and the High priest that was upon earth is long gone.
Paul told the Romans that Satan(their Adversary)would be crushed under their feet shortly!!!--70 ad was their shortly  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

tyhese are just my thoughts on a few scriptures--by no means have I even scratched the surface on this topic

we can have a Satan(adversary) in our day and time---but the Satan of the new testament has been thrown into the lake of fire already   :dsunny: :dsunny:

[FreeAtLast]

now going on unto the word demon=--what was cast out of the people when it relates unto demons or devils ???
again we must do a deep word study on this also to find its original meaning.

we today have all kinds of names for sickness and disease.
In their time they didn't have all these terms like we have today--let me give some examples

they called a child cast often into the fire having a demon
we call that today the sickness known as epilepsy.

they called the maniac running naked and cutting himself that said he was legion having demons.
we would call that sickness today multiple personality complex.

When they tried and labeled the Son as having a demon because he was telling that they were about to kill him--what were they saying??
in our time it would be like saying that you have lost your mind and have become a madman--you think every ones out to get ya!!!

in Deuteronomy you read of the blessings and cursings  that would come upon the jews for either obeying or not obeying his commandments
in the cursings you have all manner of sickness and disease and even madness--these were the devils and demons that were cast out of the jews in the new testament

in the old testament king Saul was given a evil spirit directly from the Father because of his not obeying--and the only thing that would calm him was david playing his music.

evil spirits come from the Father to the disobedient.

these are my thoughts on this subject--I don't see any fallen angels in the scriptures at all and don't think that angels have the ability to sin as men do  :HeartThrob:

also noting that some would ask me who then was the Serpent in the garden??
well you might speculate on who or what it was.

but using scriptures to determine the answer--John the Baptist referred to Men as Serpents in the new testament--and other places in scripture does the same.

so my conclusion is the Adam was the Serpent--there wasn't any one else created but the beasts upon the earth at that time--so Adam was the culprit .

Again just sharing some of my thoughts to how I see this subject   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

I see what you are saying, I just disagree. I believe the madman of the gadarenes was possessed by a real Legion of disembodied spirits/demons/evil spirits, etc. and I think Jesus met Satan on the mount of temptation and rebuked him for real.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ eaglesway.....I do, too.  My  :2c:  Sickness is the FRUIT, but the spirits/demons are the ROOT. They are perfectly capable of making physical changes in the physical body. As far as the one that cast him into the fire and into the water, that is a double minded man unstable in all of his ways, in type.

The curses are carried out by them for the purpose of the sowing and reaping aspect God established; they are tools. And I know people probably get tired of me saying this, but I can absolutely without any shadow of a doubt, vouch for the reality of them. Blessings....

[eaglesway]

LOL, Well, not that I would want anyone to just take my word for it......but I can absolutely vouch for that as well.

[micah7:9]

He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

This does not refer to the 1/3 of the angels thing, but Jesus seemed to think Satan fell. :o)

He also called peter Satan
the old testament even refers to God as Satan--read about when david numbered the people and sinned--1 scripture has it as God and the very same story in another book has it as Satan---cant remember the places and short of time--just look up Satan in concordance ---Satan is only in the old testament a hand full of times---in Job and couple of other places the word Satan in there.

no where in the book of moses(all 5)do you even find a hint of a so called Satan---now do you think the father would have warned his children by Moses to be aware of such a one ?nor even in the whole bible do you even find anything referring to 1/3 angels falling ?

When he called Peter Satan---do you think Satan took control of him ?

for times sake--when you do a deep word study(and that's all Satan is is a word  not a name for 1 same person)the word Satan comes from ha-satan and is a word denoting adversary.

as for the statement of falling from heaven--that same term is used in old testament for the King of Babylon(which was a man(Nebuchadnezzar)and denotes a fall from the glory and honor that had been given him before men(in an instant it was all lost when he fell to the ground as a wild beast)because he became prideful .

that was just 1 example--there are more in the old testament of the phrases fall from heaven and cast down to hell or the earth---never meant literally from the heavens and down to the earth---but was spiritual in meaning.

the enemy always has been men---men are the ones the father destroyed in the flood because of their wickedness--no mention of a fallen angel destroyed in that time.

would the father wipe men off the face of the earth because of their wickedness and leave the one who caused all the problem to begin with---just to do the same thing over?? :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

just a few thoughts imo that don't even scratch the surface of this most misunderstood subject.

Hang in there  :dsunny: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Obviously, most sickness is a natural occurence, with spiritual roots, the fruit of the separation of God and man. But as to the question of whether their are demons or if Satan is a spirit being with individual identity, the way I see it- anyone who does not believe that believes the bible is one big allegory. There is simply no way read the gospel narrative as a history, God-breathed, and not conclude that demons and Satan are real. That or its just th writings of ignorant primitive men who did not have "our education" and enlightenment".



This, in my opinion, is a totally unsupportable position as far as the scriptures are concerned- Jesus Himself said the scriptures can't be broken and He certainly had the understanding to have clued us in- along with everything else He confronted and tore down, "Hey, demons and the devil are just spiritual principles working in man". He didnt do that, or, none of the scriptures are dependable, therefore, neither is any other doctrine of foundation of the faith so whats the point? Just be a unitarian universalist or a New Ager or a Hindu and include Jesus as one of many ways to a higher consciousness, and the scriptures as another body of cultural myth embodying universal truths.

Are we really to believe Jesus was so natural that He didnt know the difference between epilepsy and a demonic spirit? Or that He actually played into the ignorance of men?

When He healed it was sickness. When He cast out a spirit it was demonic. IMO, It's a long way towards invalidating the scriptures altogether to deny that demons are real, and a pretty good step in that direction to deny the personal existence of Satan.

[sheila]

Lev 6;10  azazael's 'scapegoat"...that perishes in the wilderness never to enter into the Holy city.

   Lev 17;7  they must no longer offer any of the sacrifices to thegoat idols[demons] to whom they prostitute

themselves.    Matt 25;31-46....goats to LOF prepared for the devil and his angels[messengers]

     so...we see ATONEMENT....in the Torah..tied in with   Azazael's goat being removed/sent away

    even to this day 'satanists' depict the goat as a sign of their sacrifices offered .

[Cardinal]

Obviously, most sickness is a natural occurence, with spiritual roots, the fruit of the separation of God and man. But as to the question of whether their are demons or if Satan is a spirit being with individual identity, the way I see it- anyone who does not believe that believes the bible is one big allegory. There is simply no way read the gospel narrative as a history, God-breathed, and not conclude that demons and Satan are real. That or its just th writings of ignorant primitive men who did not have "our education" and enlightenment".



This, in my opinion, is a totally unsupportable position as far as the scriptures are concerned- Jesus Himself said the scriptures can't be broken and He certainly had the understanding to have clued us in- along with everything else He confronted and tore down, "Hey, demons and the devil are just spiritual principles working in man". He didnt do that, or, none of the scriptures are dependable, therefore, neither is any other doctrine of foundation of the faith so whats the point? Just be a unitarian universalist or a New Ager or a Hindu and include Jesus as one of many ways to a higher consciousness, and the scriptures as another body of cultural myth embodying universal truths.

Are we really to believe Jesus was so natural that He didnt know the difference between epilepsy and a demonic spirit? Or that He actually played into the ignorance of men?

When He healed it was sickness. When He cast out a spirit it was demonic. IMO, It's a long way towards invalidating the scriptures altogether to deny that demons are real, and a pretty good step in that direction to deny the personal existence of Satan.

:cloud9: AMEN

[FreeAtLast]

i see that we agree that we disagree on this subject  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
and that's ok--but a question arose last night for me to ask about this furthermore.

if angels have the capability of sinning and multitudes accordingly have already sinned and fell.
Yahshua said that we would be as the angels in heaven--so the thought here is this--if angels can sin even at this present time--can the saints that have already gone on or even us when we get there still have the ability to commit sin and fall from heaven as the angels--since we will be as the angels ???

the question still rings in my being that as the father doesn't torture most of his creation and that thought never entered into his mind to do so.
then why would he destroy all mankind with the flood to only leave the root of the problem and have to do the same thing all over again--i think this is a worthy topic and would it not just be as cruel to leave such a one and kill all of his creation---only to let the same one do the same thing to his creation that would cause him to do the same thing over ???   would not this be as cruel to his creation as torturing them for eternity ???  just my thoughts  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[lastpost]

Matt. 12:45
"Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil (more evil => poneroteros) than himself, and they enter in and dwell there"

more evil => poneroteros
poneroteros comparative of poneros

Definition of poneros:
1.   full of labours, annoyances, hardships
   i).   pressed and harassed by labours
2.   bad, of a bad nature or condition
   i).  in a physical sense: diseased or blind
   ii). in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad

In my opinion, evil spirits are themselves (spiritually) diseased spirits (i.e. diseased spiritual bodies and minds), in extreme pain due to their own wickedness which denies them peace, hence they seek "relief" by possessing a life form, but there is no relief for them of course as they produce more evil.

I do not believe that they are all uniform in their "state of evil" because:
"...it takes along with it seven other spirits more evil (poneroteros) than itself".

As these "seven" other spirits are more wicked than the original spirit, it is more than possible they are also of varying degrees of evil and are not all uniform in their "state of evil".

The more evil the spirit, the more evil it wants to cause to any other being, whether spirit being or human being.

The word poneros is used in the nominative case in Matt. 6:13. This usually denotes a title in the Greek. Hence Christ is saying, "deliver us from The Evil". [TDNT]

My personal belief is that there is no one ultra-evil being called Satan as such, but that evil collectively is "The Evil", and "Satan" is synonymous with this title. I also believe that there are evil beings far more evil than the worst evil being that a human being could imagine - but none are solely in charge of all the evil spirits in the whole universe as it were. That is my opinion.

I believe that I would not reverently follow Yeshua, the Christ of God, as my Saviour and Leader, nor would I love Him in even a fraction of the way that I do, nor would I even be saying anything on this forum or possibly any Christian forum, if evil spirits did not exist.

Aside: When a spirit reaches a certain state of purity, then sin becomes abhorrent to him or her altogether. That is also my opinion.

Peace in the rest which is service.