Could we get personal about UR

[VineBranch]

God is not concerned with the conclusion of the billions.
He is with you and watching you to see what level of sovereignty
you ascribe to him.

Seriously?  God doesn't know how I feel about Him?  Is God waiting for me to enlighten Him?  How is this different from ded's assumption that God is dependent on experiential data to know things?

[VineBranch]

"There is something mysterious going on here, or is it just God's way of communicating with us on our own level?"
I think it is a little of both. We try to draw hard lines around things Gods has deliberately left "between the lines" of assumptions & our pardigms. He may be getting a little enjoyment with all this, as we are trying to figure things out so we can best one another intellectually and claim the "deeper" understanding.

How can something be both a mystery and known?  With all due respect, I came here to learn, not to have my motives impuned!

Does God being totally in control mean He controls us totally?

Nah, don't think so :o)

Either He will drag all to Him totally, or He won't.  If ded is right, God won't know whether He did or not, until it happens.  If you are right, then I can upset the whole thing by simply walking away ie. slipping out of God's control.  You can't have it both ways.  Either God is in control and the universe will go where He wills, or he is not, and my free will can thwart God's plans.

[eaglesway]

You are misundrstanding what ded said. All black and white, eh? There are many levels to the mysteries of the scriptiures, you have to read what people say and try to understand what they are saying.....not jump off the cuff with assumptions.

If I understood him correctly, Ded was saying that God "for-knows all" but experiences with us, as we experience, our lives. Then, He communicates with us on our level about the shared experience.

[ded2daworld]

Right EW. I thought I made it clear that God knows everything intellectually.
There is a smaller subset of things that God knows experientially.
Abraham and Isaac - God knew Abraham would do what he did, and also KNEW he would stop him. - That's why there was a waiting nearby ram caught in the thicket to used as the substitute sacrifice. :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

Hi ded, thanks for the update.  If I may, I would like to request some clarification.

DNA is a code, but your called it a language code:  are you sure?  I am particularly worried that we may try to impose a structure which isn't there.  Although it has what my be called a protocol, somewhat akin to word order, DNA doesn't appear to have a grammar for example.  If Adam didn't have first hand knowledge of death, then he couldn't have been held responsible for knowing what it would do to him, so how could God hold him responsible for something if the only way he could truly know the consequence of the action, was to perform that act?

IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand

You don't think it was because Jesus had become totally human and it was therefore necessary for Him to grow in a totally human way?

After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.

This one confuses me the most; I also have to admit you have frightened me:  in fact given me the willies.  As soon as I read this my stomach did a flip-flop.  If God cannot know something (in any capacity) before He has seen a human perform it, then God is not omniscient.  In fact, man becomes God's teacher in your example.  If this is true, then God didn't know Adam would eat the fruit, until Adam ate the fruit; God wouldn't know Adam would die, until Adam died:  which makes His threat about the consequences of eating the fruit mere speculation on His part. If God didn't really know if Adam would die or not, how could Adam know?  How could he be held responsible if the results were mere conjecture? Is God running some cruel experiment?  Is He seeing if the world actually works the way He intellectually knows it should, but can't really be sure until He subjects it to some testing? I see you have received a lot of praise for this post, so I must be missing something.

Ahh! A breeze of reason, feels good. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

 One thing that gives me the willies is the idea that every action/experience/thought in life is a kind of "forgone conclusion". This would, IMO, makes us marionettes, not new creations in Christ Jesus being transformed into the (inward/spiritual) likeness of the Son of God. Our interaction with God in our lifetimes must include on SOME LEVEL, a measure of genuiness in experience, spontaneous communication and real interaction in order to have any substance at all. To me, any thing less than a genuine experience lived out as I walk through my day would be a sham. As thankful as I am for the guidance and protection of the Great Shepherd, I am also thankful that I reap what I sow(within the moderation of His mercy) and that I am learning obedience through the things that I suffer. The minutae of what God has for-ordained on the grand scale of the ages exceeds the revelation of my day to day existence, through which God is both using me as a priest and a son, and training me for the exercise of a greater inheritance in the ages to come.

[ded2daworld]

Foreknowledge, which is a part of omniscience, does not cause things to happen. When my children were born, I KNEW that if they lived long enough that they would sin. My foreknowledge in no way caused them to sin.
How close will you walk with God? That's up to you but it doesn't mean he already knows how close that walk will be.
Just like in the book of Jonah, God told Jonah to tell the Ninevites that he was going to destroy them for their sin. The Ninevites said to themselves, let us repent and do what's right. Who knows what may happen, God may see what we are doing and hold back his hand... Then it says God changed his mind and decided not to destroy the Ninevites.
I don't believe God changed his mind. I believe God knew all along the Ninevites would "straighten up" and plead for mercy.
I don't believe God ever changes his mind. That would make him changeable and therefore not God. Seeing the future does not cause the future. Of course God knew Adam would sin else Christ would not have been slain before the foundation of the world.
God told Job's friends that he would have Jonah pray for them and because of Jonah's prayer, He(God) would not destroy them. Foreknowledge does not make things happen - it's just knowing what will happen.

Here's a joke/illustration:
Old couple driving down the highway. Married for 40 years, she looks over at him driving. She says, "Paw, do you remember when we wuz dating and we'd drive down the road and I'd rest my head on your shoulder and put my hand on your knee and reach up and kiss your cheek every now and then?"
The old man looked at her breifly, then back at the road and said, "Maw, I haven't moved."

[VineBranch]

All black and white, eh? There are many levels to the mysteries of the scriptiures, you have to read what people say and try to understand what they are saying.....not jump off the cuff with assumptions.

Excuse me?  It is exactly because I'm trying to divide the nuances in scripture that I am here; it's because I don't see it in black white that I ask questions:  what do mean?

[VineBranch]

If I understood him correctly, Ded was saying that God "for-knows all" but experiences with us, as we experience, our lives. Then, He communicates with us on our level about the shared experience.

Sorry Eagle, that's not what he said.  The words were, "After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, 'NOW I know that you fear God...'  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially." (emphasis mine)  There was a temporally specific instant in which this knowledge came to God (ded used 'now' [he could have used then it would have amounted to the same thing]).  Once the event was placed inside time, ie it had a temporal origin, the for-knowing was eliminated as an option.  Either the knowledge was with God, or it came to Him from somewhere else.  If the latter, it wasn't for-knowing at all, merely guessing.

[eaglesway]

I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

[VineBranch]

How close will you walk with God? That's up to you but it doesn't mean he already knows how close that walk will be.

So, for all God knows, I could walk away from Him.  So, for all God knows, I could walk away so far as to be lost forever?  Seems to me what you saying is that God is not only not omniscient, He is not omnipotent either:  He can't stop me from not being with Him.  If He doesn't know, He doesn't know!

I don't believe God changed his mind. I believe God knew all along the Ninevites would "straighten up" and plead for mercy.

But according to your previous posts, He wouldn't have known it experientially.  So, how could you know what went through God's mind?

[VineBranch]

I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

I know what he said, I'm querrying whether that is an explanation, or a retraction.  Not all explanations work for all people.  Assuming I should think like you and be persuaded by what persuades you is a bit black and white don't you think.

[sheila]

  those He foreKNEW He called.......in the tree of knowledge of good and evil..GOD IS THERE...we all know

  GOD..because in Him we live and move and have our being...the whole creation is made of His substance.

   the life force in you is of God...we are all little cells of His Great Body.[Immanuel].  He created man for

  HIS SPIRIT TO DWELL IN...that is what He chose as a temple[dwelling place] on this earth......the adversary

  abomination,entered His temple[sin entered]and sat as a god[rebellion spirit] in the temple of God........

  and exhibited the sinful nature in fallen man.  He who destroys the temple of God..God will destroy.....

  yes the spirits of rebellion shall be destroyed...for that is a pre-requisite for reconciliation.

   As long as the spirits of rebellion exist..there is no peace...HE WILL SEPERATE US FROM THEM....

   or the evil that be in our members shall be cut off[knowledge of good/evil]

    Tear down this temple and I shall raise it on the third day.

     the wicked will not learn righteousness....abyssed 1000 years...as soon as he is released..what does he do?

  it is the nature of the beast..it's nature is an evil contrast to God's.....He gives a new spirit and writes

  His laws/nature in our hearts..no longer a mix of good/godliness and evil/godlessness dwelling in our vessel

   thus victory..the struggle and wrestling is over...Incorruption/immortality/great peace and Blessing..no

  more curse..nor death,nor mourning,nor suffering nor tears.  AT-ONE with GOD..no adversarial division

   God is GOOD God is LOVE..Evil is hate......the scapegoat/Azazel...perishes in the wilderness[wicked

generation that perished in wilderness and did not enter in the promised land[freedom of sons of God from sin]

   Jesus as the Lord's lot goat was sacrificed..the other Azazel's[goat shaped demons in the wilderness]

   Jesus as strong man...placed the sin of the people squarely on the Azazel's goat head..goats like to lead

  the flock..and the adversarial rebellion spirit leads men into sin and rebellion to God.

   God/holy/obediant/loving/kind/godliness/peace/man in His image/Jesus/sheep led to waters of life

   Satan/unholy/rebellious/hateful/cruel/godlessness/strife/man of sin/son of perdition/goats to everlasting

  cutting off.

   as all in Adam have bore the image of the corruptible[good/evil mix] so too all shall bear the image of the incorrupt

  one..that was firstborn in Heaven..dwelt in flesh..was raised up firstborn from the dead

[dajomaco]

God is not concerned with the conclusion of the billions.
He is with you and watching you to see what level of sovereignty
you ascribe to him.

Seriously?  God doesn't know how I feel about Him?  Is God waiting for me to enlighten Him?  How is this different from ded's assumption that God is dependent on experiential data to know things?

It 's you who doesn't know how you feel about God.
His mercies are new every morning.
He is with you watching you as you experience him.
Whether he knows every feeling you have had
from the birth till now.
What did you call this morning, in your heart did you call it beautiful
did you call it surviving. Are you and God one now.
If not ask God.

I am saying the sovereignty of God is an aspect of our walk we grow in.
We can say intellectually every atomic particle is moved by God always.
But do we trust that sovereignty always.

I think every concern or anxiety or blessing we have.
Have never been before and is unique.

Gods sovereignty is a trust issue not a science issue .   

[jabcat]

God is not concerned with the conclusion of the billions.
He is with you and watching you to see what level of sovereignty
you ascribe to him.

Seriously?  God doesn't know how I feel about Him?  Is God waiting for me to enlighten Him?  How is this different from ded's assumption that God is dependent on experiential data to know things?

God impressed me to pray for (not someone I "support") Hilary Clinton this morning after she fell and got a concussion.  I realized praying that prayer changed me.   

[dajomaco]

To me the real mystery is the WORD.
God spoke out loud and created.
The next voice heard was Adam naming the animals.
Did he have a similar yet filtered power when he spoke the name of each
animal out loud? Were the characteristics of the animal shaped by its name?

It was Adam you named and described Eve and her fuction.

Now today we have a mystery is there any power in Saying
Jesus is my Lord and I trust in God and I will be anxious for nothing.

I just said that out loud.

Can hardly wait for the Good Report.

[VineBranch]

It 's you who doesn't know how you feel about God.

And you know this how?
 

I think every concern or anxiety or blessing we have.
Have never been before and is unique.

And yet scripture would have us believe otherwise:  "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."  Ecc. 1:9 
 

[VineBranch]

I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

So, you give yourself the right to insult my literary abilities and then take your ball and go home?  Okay see you!  No offense intended.

[ded2daworld]

OK, one more time.
God knows everything - he is omniscient
God is omnipotent - he is all powerful

God knowing what will happen does not make it happen
Having the power to operate us all like puppets doesn't mean
that he does and it is contrary to his love nature to control us like puppets.

Concerning the example with the ninevites, I don't believe God changed his mind because 1.) God does not change and 2.) Knowing everything, he would already know the outcome and thus already knew what he would do. (The ninevites repenting)
Anthropomorphism is a literary device by which finite man is better able to understand the unfinite God. ("Like shadow me under your wings oh Lord')  :Peace2: :dsunny:

[Paul L]

I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

So, you give yourself the right to insult my literary abilities and then take your ball and go home?  Okay see you!  No offense intended.

VB,

I for one fully understand where you are coming from in these issues. I have been there, am there now, & will be there for the rest of this earthly existence. I have not put forth  a single comment about this subject matter simply because I too see so many seemingly inconsistent explanations about it directly from the pages of Holy Writ. I muse on the frailties of human intellect in satisfying our need for  comprehending the purpose of our short time on this planet.

I do know for certain, there are many passages of Holy Writ that are intended for a specific event for specific duration of time & often for only a specific individual or nation of individuals. Often we must discern Holy Writ in this light, it's part of the explanation as to why God gave humans a different brain than he gave to the animal kingdom, an organ to think & reason with.

It is my most sincere belief that if God intended for present day words of Holy Writ  to contain all the knowledge needed for the operations of the entirety of his created works, the book itself would be so unwieldly in size that the foundations of our planet could not support it, after all, God has already existed for eternity.

Probably one of the most outstanding gems for understanding God's purpose on the earth in the present age comes from Ecc 3: 10-11......."so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.". Hence, the Bible is an incompletely written book. God is plainly telling us that he has always intended we not comprehend issues that have been argued even before times that our Bibles have existed in the script form we have them today.

There is absolutely no one posting on any site anywhere in the world who can give you satisfactory answers to issues you raise, your issues are also mine. Issues like: Why does there need to be a Book of Revelation? Can't we all just get along? . See what I mean? And God's answer to us is: "....so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end". Doesn't seem like much of an answer to you does it? Nor to me......., but it's all we've got.

Next step is asking God for his peace to come over our minds like a blanket, until a time when he privileges us to gaze upon another chapter in a different Book intended for an age beyond the present eon.

[VineBranch]

OK, one more time.
God knows everything - he is omniscient
God is omnipotent - he is all powerful

God knowing what will happen does not make it happen
Having the power to operate us all like puppets doesn't mean
that he does and it is contrary to his love nature to control us like puppets.

Concerning the example with the ninevites, I don't believe God changed his mind because 1.) God does not change and 2.) Knowing everything, he would already know the outcome and thus already knew what he would do. (The ninevites repenting)
Anthropomorphism is a literary device by which finite man is better able to understand the unfinite God. ("Like shadow me under your wings oh Lord')  :Peace2: :dsunny:

"God knows everything - he is omniscient
God is omnipotent - he is all powerful"

I have no problem with these statements, I believe them to be true.  What gives me pause is that your examples and your explanations don't show this.  They show the opposite at times.  I am taking your examples to task, not your beliefs.  I took eagle's advise and very slowly re-read all your posts.  They don't advance the the claims you state:  some negate them.

"God knowing what will happen does not make it happen
Having the power to operate us all like puppets doesn't mean
that he does and it is contrary to his love nature to control us like puppets."

No where did I state anything resembling this.  I fear this may be a 'straw person' argument.

[VineBranch]

Next step is asking God for his peace to come over our minds like a blanket, until a time when he privileges us to gaze upon another chapter in a different Book intended for an age beyond the present eon.

Nice Paul!!

But someday Lucy is gonna get old and she won't be able to pull the ball away and, and, and, ... I'll be too old to kick it anyway. :laugh:

[ded2daworld]

Well, I explained it best I could. I fail to see why you think one statement negates the other.
Do you believe that because God already knows what is going to happen that the knowledge somehow causes it? I've been saying the opposite. Ah well, no biggie. :Peace2: :dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

So, you give yourself the right to insult my literary abilities and then take your ball and go home?  Okay see you!  No offense intended.

Folks, we are discussing in this thread things which have been meditated on and debated for centuries.  They may even be beyond the ability of our carnal, three-dimensional, linear-time minds to grasp.  Give VB a break, please.  Further, please do not assume, or presume things like a poster's intellect, literary skill, the size or their personal library, or where they are in their Christian walk, at least no more than you can justify from their posts, for we are a mere www community, and most of us do not know each other personally.   :2c:

[dajomaco]

It 's you who doesn't know how you feel about God.

And you know this how?

No one is old enough  to know how they truly feel about God. 

I think every concern or anxiety or blessing we have.
Have never been before and is unique.

And yet scripture would have us believe otherwise:  "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."  Ecc. 1:9 

As for your thoughts, your own private thoughts that cause the sensation of feelings.
These feelings are new under the Sun for you.

You and God are the only ones, who know, how you truly feel.
As you experience Joy The Lord is your joy.