Tentmaker Forum

I am quite new to UR.  I am also new to the notion of UR.  In the short while I have actually started to believe the tenets and insights, I have noticed that it is having a profound effect on me:  I am actually changed, as a person.  Reconciling what I knew in my heart to be true (that God would never let anyone He loved simply 'rot in hell' because they made mistakes), with what I had been told all my life (God will get you if you step out of line and there will [literally] be hell to pay ) has not been easy.  In fact, having tried to believe both these things to be true at the same time has produced a certain cognitive dissonance which has caused a lot of problems, both physically, and spiritually.

Since becoming part of this discussion community I have met a lot of knowledgable folk.  A lot of people here know of what they speak.  I am grateful that God lead me here.  I am also grateful that most of the people here are so generous with their time and knowledge.

I am also finding that the older I get the less interested I become in theology and more interested I become in people:  the personal becomes more important than the public. 

I'ld love to have a place where I could come and just say something like, "I smile more knowing that God is more interested in people than laws (just an example).  For me, knowing that God never planned on letting any of us go does actually make me a bit weepy.  It also makes me sad to think that so many people live in fear of eternal damnation needlessly and that there are people who perpetuate this myth just to keep pews filled.  I know God will draw those who are now the fearmongers among us to Himself as well, but in the present, the needless anxiety they create effects everyone they touch, and that is sad".  It would be great to say that and then hear someone else respond with, "you know when I was child I knew God loved me, yet, somehow the whole hell thing just crept in ... you know"?  The personal just means so much.

VB - it was as if you told my story. Thank you :dsunny: :Peace2:

that was heartfelt...thank-you

VB, you are becoming a new creature, and as Paul said, there is no telling what you will be.  We do know that you will be like Jesus, for we know that Christ is in you (the hope of Glory).  Wow - that'll just "separate your head from your shoulders!"

Thanks L.S. (is that a slur on my common sense?  :laugh:)
Speaking of separating (neat segue huh?)  I now have a totally diffent take on what Paul meant when he said:  "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38-39) KJV

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.  (Rom 8:38-39) ESV

I used to think he was talking to the elite, now ... I'm thinking maybe it's to everyone.

Once I discovered that hell was a lie.
I thought what else had I been taught was true was actually a lie.

I am like a new born baby figuring things out.
Figuring out what is right and wrong.

I have reaffirmed that touching a hot stove hurts.
So it might be wrong for me to touch a hot stove.

But everything is new and must be either reaffirmed,
or I must make a new assment.

Quote from: dajomaco on December 06, 2012, 12:16:49 AM
But everything is new and must be either reaffirmed,
or I must make a new assment.

Amen daj, amen!!

Vine branch: your last paragraph sound just like how I feel. I am a bit of a newbie to UR, but it is truth, life and the real good news. Now I have a God that I rejoice in, and yes, weep over but now it is in gladness and gratitude. For 25 years as an evangelical (most of that working for a "ministry") I was almost driven to the point of suicide. Trying to be good was making me an emotional basketcase and I always thought God was very disappointed in me, which made me hate myself and do self destructive things. Yes, discovering the real love of God who will reconcile all creation, which is subject to futility for a period of time and for His purpose, is a grand relief. It is a game changer for sure. You might have noticed, however, that not many are willing to, or can see it right away. I don't know why God has chosen to share it with me, but my sincere prayer is that I may lay hold of that for which He has laid hold of me.  Welcome VB.

Now that I have a new understanding .
I don't look at the past so much.
I used to look back at the past and it did not bring me joy.

Now I look back at Jesus and imagine him as a teenager.
I chose to see myself with Jesus as a teenager.
How much fun we must have had learning so many new things.
The beauty of Gods creation seemed to be so alive to me as a teen.
That was until I destroyed its beauty in my world with drugs ,alcohol ,sex
and violence .

Any way I am now comforted by all imitate and intimate walks with the lord through the Spirit that are now and ahead for ever.

Quote from: Deena on December 06, 2012, 01:56:58 PM
...
Trying to be good was making me an emotional basketcase and I always thought God was very disappointed in me, which made me hate myself and do self destructive things. Yes, discovering the real love of God who will reconcile all creation, which is subject to futility for a period of time and for His purpose, is a grand relief.

Thanks for being so open about this De.  For years I would pray for death.  I kept asking God why He hated me so much that He refused to take me home.  Almost every morning I would wake and ask God why I was still alive.  I used to tell Him, there is nothing I do which can't be done a thousand times better by someone else.  Why keep me around?  At one time it got so bad that I said I would take non-existence over life on Earth.  If He could , would He just please throw my away into oblivion.  I would rather not be, than be here.  Yet every morning I would wake up with the knowledge that somehow I would disappoint everyone I knew because I could never the 'good' person I was supposed to be.  I knew nothing I did would ever be good enough, I was a failure, and probably a phoney:  what Christian thinks himself incapable of pleasing God?  I thought it might be better to be in Hell, at least that way I wouldn't have to see the disappointment on God's face.  I would never please Him, why bother even being near Him?  I asked myself these questions:  how come God is so generous with His salvation, yet so stingy with His love?  How come so many people will go to Hell, just because the 'God of Love' didn't get His own way?

Then He showed me what the real plan is, and I haven't been the same since.  I haven't hated waking up in a while now.  When I wake up I walk into my father's loving arms, not His disappointment.  He really does love everyone enough to make sure no one (including me) is left out, or lost, irrespective of how many mistakes we make along the way.

 :dsunny: :thumbsup: :gimmefive: :Peace2:

Because of the Lord's faithful love
we do not perish,[h]
for His mercies never end.
23 They are new every morning;
great is Your faithfulness!
24 I say: The Lord is my portion,
therefore I will put my hope in Him.

There is such freedom in knowing every person IS beloved of the Lord. I live in NYC. Every day as I walk about this crowded city and get on and off of buses and subways I have endless opportunity to say, "This person is the beloved of the Lord"......."Jesus died to rescue this person". Whenever my flesh would like to rise up, I remember, "This person is beloved of the Lord and WILL BE REDEEMED. I get elated sometimes. I probably grin like a madman and scare people, I don't know but "trying to love" people never worked well for me. It was the establishment and proclamation of the reconiliation, salvation and restoration of all within this temple that tore the veil and made it possible to believe......

This person WILL BE REDEEMED.......

That belief unlocked within me the power to love- who'd of guessed that? :o)   Not me.

We do indeed have a hope for a glorious future when we will see Christ as He truly is, and we WILL be like Him.

There seems to be a maturity about UR.  I don't mean that the only people who believe it are necessarily mature, but the notion/idea/belief, of UR has an inherent maturity.

A child screams "Mom I hate you"! A mature mother gets it:  she doesn't need to slap the child and enter into some kind of competition with it to prove that 'mom is in charge and mom is right'.  She understands that the child is a child, and she is an adult.  Someday the child will understand.  For the moment however, mom is there to take care of the child, regardless of how important the child might think it is.  (I have seen parents competing with their own children as to who is the adult, and it is quite disconcerting.  In this post however I will be talking about mature rational parents.)  The Parent doesn't need to dominate the child.  A compassionate parent has to patience to understand that when they were children they needed guidance, not beatings.  The child doesn't need to be told it will go to Hell if it won't submit, although wielding the Hell stick is a tool some parents use.

Hell in one way seems so immature.

I sometimes think that there are people who actually look forward to seeing other people in the Hell of ET.  I think they secretly relish the thought "keep it up sinner, someday I'll see you in Hell and I'll smile at you rotting there forever (que the evil laughter).  Hell for some seems to be the place where all the people who ever did me wrong will wind up and I will be vindicated because God and I will laugh at them; they will be punished because they hurt me:  that'll learn 'em.

Okay, okay, I confess I've had those thoughts myself.  Knowing that those jerks were gonna find themselves in Hell was justice in my mind.  So, it was kinda necessary for there to be a Hell ... not for me, mind you, for them.  Someone wrongs me, off to Hell.  Someone disagrees to me, it's off to the Hell for the stupid for you.  Just you wait 'enry 'iggins, just you wait.  I took solace in this knowledge. I hung out with folk who also took solace in the knowledge.  Can you imagine being in so much pain, that the thought of some one else going to Hell was a good thing (notice the shutter, as I type).

Some of us have to have a hell or else there is no way to prove that we were right.  We also need Hell to prove that there was meaning to all the pain and suffering through which we went while we were down here.

Now however, things are different.

I see the Beatitudes in a different light.  I see the notion of The Father more clearly.  God is The Father, He doesn't have to compete with His kids to prove that to Himself, or to others.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:43-45 KJV

Because our Father is patient with all His kids, we now know that those who curse us and despitefully use us will also come to the father.  They are not our enemies, even though they kill us in this life, they are brothers and sisters ... fellow travellers on the way to The Father.  I think when God shows us that no one will be lost, a certain maturity seems to be inherent in that revelation, a cetain patience comes about:  perhaps an understanding to not take those affronts personally, perhaps an understanding of the words 'forgive them for they know not what they do'.  We are all children, maybe part of having recieved a certain amount of God's understanding allows us to treat each others and ourselves as such:  we see that we all need a lot more patience for ourselves and others.  Maybe what happens when God shows us His plan is two fold, we see that there is no Hell, and we see that we no longer have need of one. 

I once told some friends of mine, "be careful whom you choose as your gods, for you will become like them".  I see now that is truer then I had originally thought.

In the garden of Eden before the fall, God created, to please Adam.
This is  a mystery God.Was interested in what Adam called each animal.
I don't think God was going to correct Adam and tell him the he gave the wrong name .
Every name, no matter what Adam said. That name was the true name of that creature .
It was like Adam could do no wrong. Atta boy.

Now today with me he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I can relax he is well aware of any my inadequacies
and only wants me to name some of the creatures.



Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper as his complement." 19 So the LORD God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it. And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20

Eaglesway, I know what you mean by smiling like a mad man. Sometimes I see a group of people and the thought comes to me, it's all gonna be ok--not one will be lost, and I break out in a wide smile. This is the real good news. I want to tell everyone, but most I share it with imediately shut it down. That's ok--I'm still smiling! One of the best parts is I no longer feel I am competing with someone for the few spots in heaven. That frees me to love them (although I still need training wheels for this one)  :laugh:

Quote from: Deena on December 09, 2012, 01:13:50 PM
Eaglesway, I know what you mean by smiling like a mad man. Sometimes I see a group of people and the thought comes to me, it's all gonna be ok--not one will be lost, and I break out in a wide smile. This is the real good news. I want to tell everyone, but most I share it with imediately shut it down. That's ok--I'm still smiling! One of the best parts is I no longer feel I am competing with someone for the few spots in heaven. That frees me to love them (although I still need training wheels for this one)  :laugh:

It speaks to me of the irrelevance of our notion of time inside God's love.  I said on my website that one fo the things I had learned is that it takes a lifetime to live a life.  Now I see that it that it takes an eternity to show God's love.

Just imagine how much love God has for us that it just barley fits
in to the time restraints of eternity.

God may just decide to make eternity longer .

Daj,
If anybody can do it, he can :laugh:

Quote from: dajomaco on December 09, 2012, 08:39:24 PM
Just imagine how much love God has for us that it just barley fits
in to the time restraints of eternity.

God may just decide to make eternity longer .

Have you ever thought (ignoring the little detail of the time between our death and our resurrection) that we are already living in Eternity?!

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 10, 2012, 03:38:14 AM

Have you ever thought (ignoring the little detail of the time between our death and our resurrection) that we are already living in Eternity?!

I think we are.  I have come to see time as a property of mater.  When the material universe is gone, there will be no matter and therefore there will be no time.  God is spirit.  Spirit exists outside of time.  That part of me which exists as spirit exists outside of time as well because spirit is immaterial, and thus unaffected by time.
I don't think eternity is created by just putting more time into the works:  akin to the notion of forever.  Eternity exists (if indeed that word can even be applied to something which in the material universe cannot exist) beyond time.  So yes LS I think we are.  I know this question was addressed to daj, sorry if I stepped on any toes.

Quote from: Deena on December 09, 2012, 01:13:50 PM
Eaglesway, I know what you mean by smiling like a mad man. Sometimes I see a group of people and the thought comes to me, it's all gonna be ok--not one will be lost, and I break out in a wide smile. This is the real good news. I want to tell everyone, but most I share it with imediately shut it down. That's ok--I'm still smiling! One of the best parts is I no longer feel I am competing with someone for the few spots in heaven. That frees me to love them (although I still need training wheels for this one)  :laugh:

:o) Beautiful :o)

Time is the threshing floor of God. IMO, It is by no means irrelevant. It is the stage upon which He is demonstrating His wisdom. If we are wise we will make the most of it. If we are not, He has forgiven us anyway :o), but wisdom justifies her children. Let us be wise.

Being a science guy, IMO, time was different before Adams sin. There was no death and decay before sin. Death and decay are aspects of time. The whole universe is in decay mode and I believe that was from Adams sin and why the Bible states that "all of creation" groans under it's weight. I believe when all is reconciled, not only will there be no death but it follows that there will be no decay. What is a natural physical law now (death and decay) will be abolished. :Peace2:

In some way time is used as an economy.
I believe we are in our eternal lives now.
The part that stays for all eternity is the things we do through faith.
If by faith we prayed or sang for 10 minutes that time will be added to eternity.
I f by faith we fed or visited some one, the time that we were moving in the spirit
will be ours for ever .
These will be our rewards these will be the differences in the crowns we are given.
Some will have used a lot of time some not so much.
But we will all recognize the value of each others crown .
Then we will all throw our crowns down before the Lord of Glory
followed by the full hosts and universes of praise to Jesus
The Son of God Taking his place on the thrown. 

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 10, 2012, 01:58:27 PM
Being a science guy, IMO, time was different before Adams sin. There was no death and decay before sin. Death and decay are aspects of time. The whole universe is in decay mode and I believe that was from Adams sin and why the Bible states that "all of creation" groans under it's weight. I believe when all is reconciled, not only will there be no death but it follows that there will be no decay. What is a natural physical law now (death and decay) will be abolished. :Peace2:

I agree entirely with that.

he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 10, 2012, 01:58:27 PM
Being a science guy, IMO, time was different before Adams sin.

Different how?  Now time is characterised by movement (if even at the subatomic level).  Are you suggesting a 'kind' of time which could exist without movement?  No movement no decay/wearing out/entropy?

time is relation to finiteness
time in relation to process
time in relation to existence
time in relation to consciousness
a state of being that completely transcends time

so many possible perspectives on time

Yes VB, that's what I'm suggesting. Just as the people of Israel wandered in the desert for forty years and their sandals did not wear out, I am suggesting that their was no entropy or decay. I know this currently is "breaking" a law of physics. I'm suggesting that the Lawgiver put that law into effect as the result of sin.
When Adam sinned, God told him, you shall die(eventually) and begin to die(now)
literal "dieing, you shall die."
I don't believe the earths orbit started to slow down or its' spin or its' magnetic feild weaken, etc. all part of entropy/decay UNTIL sin entered the world. Same with the universe. Stars and comets die out and orbits decay but there is nothing in science that actually shows stars or comets forming. or orbits remaining stable. :Peace2:

VB, the curse after the Fall was not just put on Adam and Eve, not just on the Earth, but upon the entire Creation.  That is why the whole creation groans together until now, if I got the wording right.  I'm a concept person, not a chapter & verse person.

Before the curse:  no decay, no death, no blood.

During the curse:  decay, death, blood.

After the curse:  no decay, no death, no blood.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 12, 2012, 07:16:21 AM
time is relation to finiteness
time in relation to process
time in relation to existence
time in relation to consciousness
a state of being that completely transcends time

so many possible perspectives on time

Sorry eagle, I don't understand the last bit:  how can time be a state of being which completely transcends time?

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 12, 2012, 03:51:49 PM
Yes VB, that's what I'm suggesting. Just as the people of Israel wandered in the desert for forty years and their sandals did not wear out, I am suggesting that their was no entropy or decay. I know this currently is "breaking" a law of physics. I'm suggesting that the Lawgiver put that law into effect as the result of sin.
When Adam sinned, God told him, you shall die(eventually) and begin to die(now)
literal "dieing, you shall die."
I don't believe the earths orbit started to slow down or its' spin or its' magnetic feild weaken, etc. all part of entropy/decay UNTIL sin entered the world. Same with the universe. Stars and comets die out and orbits decay but there is nothing in science that actually shows stars or comets forming. or orbits remaining stable. :Peace2:

I see a logic in there.  If I am reading your words properly, sin is the origin of entropy:  is that what you are saying?

Maybe you and Laz could help me with something which has been confusing me for a while.  I've heard this phrasing before, dying you shall die, or you shall die and begin to die.  It seems to imply that Adam was created immortal.  Then when he fell from grace, or created the fall, or what ever the phrase should be, he became (for lack of a better word) mortal.  Is that right?  If it is I'm really confused.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 12, 2012, 10:54:39 PM
VB, the curse after the Fall was not just put on Adam and Eve, not just on the Earth, but upon the entire Creation.  That is why the whole creation groans together until now, if I got the working right.  I'm a concept person, not a chapter & verse person.

Before the curse:  no decay, no death, no blood.

During the curse:  decay, death, blood.

After the curse:  no decay, no death, no blood.

I sympathise, chapter and verse kinda baffle me a times.

I've heard that too, there was not death before the fall.  Ken Ham spends a lot of time on this notion.  Maybe you could help me with this one:  if there was not death before the fall, how could God threaten Adam with death, if Adam had never seen death.  What would God's threat have meant to him, if he couldn't relate to this thing death, because he never saw it?
.................

Eagle, if there was not decay or entropy, how did Adam digest the fruit God said he could eat.

Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

imo  just as we are changed..in a twinkling..when we put on immortality...this is what occurred when sin

entered the body of Adam and Eve.......terrestial and celestial bodies...are like garments that the Lord

  has the power  to clothe His spiritual creatures with..and change those garments at will...

 

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 13, 2012, 02:53:25 PM
Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Abraham at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

Excellent post, maybe the best thing I ever read on the subject, building a precise bridge bewteen the language of interaction in time and the overall foreknowledge, election and predestination of God. Also a great perspective on the difference between knowledge and experience. For man, knowledge plus experience equals wisdom and understanding. Knowledge without experience is still valuable- because it points the wise in the right direction for an informed action in time, but until we go through the experience, our knowledge is only a shadow of things to come.

I n the beginning God related to Adam one on one .
There was no need for a spoken word .
No need for a written word.

God would create an animal or bird.
God new that what ever he created had no name,

He could call it what ever he wanted.
But he didn't he waited to see what Adam called it.

The animal did what ever it did.
Regardless of the name Adam gave it.
Nothing in all of creation was changed by Adam naming an animal.
Yet God still waited to see what Adam called them.

After the fall God did not communicate directly to Adams mind.
He communicated to a people to his people.
He would speak to the people by a person God would pick to write down what he said
so that a people could hear him and do what was pleasing in his sight .

After Jesus and his resurrection. It was no longer just the written word
but also the hand written message on our hearts and mind.

We start conversing with God, based on what was written, in our hearts .
The proof is in the written word of  Paul. 

I believe we are back to one on one with God.
We have the free will to call things as we see them.
God is interested in what we call things.
One on oneonly
He is not interested in what I think others call it.
He wants me to call it as I see it.   

Thanks EW. I am honored by you.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 13, 2012, 05:54:44 PM

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 13, 2012, 02:53:25 PM
Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Abraham at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

Excellent post, maybe the best thing I ever read on the subject, building a precise bridge bewteen the language of interaction in time and the overall foreknowledge, election and predestination of God. Also a great perspective on the difference between knowledge and experience. For man, knowledge plus experience equals wisdom and understanding. Knowledge without experience is still valuable- because it points the wise in the right direction for an informed action in time, but until we go through the experience, our knowledge is only a shadow of things to come.

...or as Confucius said, "I hear and I forget.  I see and I remember.  I do and I understand."

Ahhhh Yessss Grasshopper :o)

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 13, 2012, 02:53:25 PM
Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

Hi ded, thanks for the update.  If I may, I would like to request some clarification.

DNA is a code, but your called it a language code:  are you sure?  I am particularly worried that we may try to impose a structure which isn't there.  Although it has what my be called a protocol, somewhat akin to word order, DNA doesn't appear to have a grammar for example.  If Adam didn't have first hand knowledge of death, then he couldn't have been held responsible for knowing what it would do to him, so how could God hold him responsible for something if the only way he could truly know the consequence of the action, was to perform that act?

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 13, 2012, 02:53:25 PM
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand

You don't think it was because Jesus had become totally human and it was therefore necessary for Him to grow in a totally human way?

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 13, 2012, 02:53:25 PM
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.

This one confuses me the most; I also have to admit you have frightened me:  in fact given me the willies.  As soon as I read this my stomach did a flip-flop.  If God cannot know something (in any capacity) before He has seen a human perform it, then God is not omniscient.  In fact, man becomes God's teacher in your example.  If this is true, then God didn't know Adam would eat the fruit, until Adam ate the fruit; God wouldn't know Adam would die, until Adam died:  which makes His threat about the consequences of eating the fruit mere speculation on His part. If God didn't really know if Adam would die or not, how could Adam know?  How could he be held responsible if the results were mere conjecture? Is God running some cruel experiment?  Is He seeing if the world actually works the way He intellectually knows it should, but can't really be sure until He subjects it to some testing? I see you have received a lot of praise for this post, so I must be missing something.

Quote from: VineBranch on December 13, 2012, 07:15:13 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 12, 2012, 07:16:21 AM
time is relation to finiteness
time in relation to process
time in relation to existence
time in relation to consciousness
a state of being that completely transcends time

so many possible perspectives on time

When time is complete we will all be in a state of being that transcends time, right now, perhaps only God is in a state of being that transcends time. I was just listing possibilities and perspectives.

Sorry eagle, I don't understand the last bit:  how can time be a state of being which completely transcends time?

IMO, God is in a state of being that transcends time. We will be in God completely.
Time is a construct of matter in the sense that if there is no matter, time is meaningless or immeasurable.
"In the beginning..." in essence, time began when the universe began, when God said let there be light, there was then something measurable. thus, the beginning of time.
Since we live in a linear time continuum, it is difficult to concieve of something different then all we have ever known, but we do know that God transcends time since He was already there "In the beginning..."

Quote from: VineBranch on December 14, 2012, 05:03:51 AM

If God cannot know something (in any capacity) before He has seen a human perform it, then God is not omniscient.  In fact, man becomes God's teacher in your example.  If this is true, then God didn't know Adam would eat the fruit, until Adam ate the fruit; God wouldn't know Adam would die, until Adam died:  which makes His threat about the consequences of eating the fruit mere speculation on His part.

There is something mysterious going on here, or is it just God's way of communicating with us on our own level?  After Adam and Eve ate the fruit and had their eyes opened, they hid from God, making aprons of fig leaves.  God called to them, and they said they were ashamed because they were naked, and therefore hid.  God says, "Who told you that you were naked?"  I may be reading too much into the text, but God seems surprised here.  Further, I picture God doing a facepalm and saying, "Have you eaten of the tree...?"  This is said AS IF God did not know how they knew they were naked.  Theology says that God must have known, but there is a freshness in His initial reaction which tells us that He was caught unawares.  A God who exists outside of time caught unawares?!  It's a mystery... 

With that out of the way, God took decisive action.  He put a curse on the Serpent, Adam & Eve, and the whole Creation.  He told Adam and Eve they will die, so He did know that beforehand.  Once the initial jolt from almost timeless Eden to the march of history (His Story) had begun, God was on top of everything, even ahead of everything, telling the end from the beginning, and inspiring prophets to tell the future in exacting detail.  Only the jolt caught Him off guard...   

"There is something mysterious going on here, or is it just God's way of communicating with us on our own level?"

I think it is a little of both. We try to draw hard lines around things Gods has deliberately left "between the lines" of assumptions & our pardigms. He may be getting a little enjoyment with all this, as we are trying to figure things out so we can best one another intellectually and claim the "deeper" understanding.

God is who he is, regardless of whether I have read Genesis or not.

There has been a billion minds over time that have contemplated.
The level of Gods sovereignty.

God is not concerned with the conclusion of the billions.
He is with you and watching you to see what level of sovereignty
you ascribe to him.
He can show you how he is in and out of time.
He can show you in such a personnel way, that leaves you encouraged ,but hopelessly lost on how to explain it to the other billion minds.
Some times we just have a quite knowing.

Our minds are too limited in the ability to imagine a scenario
where God was not completely in charge of . 

Quote from: eaglesway on December 14, 2012, 07:33:22 PM
"There is something mysterious going on here, or is it just God's way of communicating with us on our own level?"

I think it is a little of both. We try to draw hard lines around things Gods has deliberately left "between the lines" of assumptions & our pardigms. He may be getting a little enjoyment with all this, as we are trying to figure things out so we can best one another intellectually and claim the "deeper" understanding.

Zing!  I think you've nailed it.

Daj,
The thought of God not being totally in control terrifies me for one reason. If God is not in control then he is not God by definition.
Besides, I have a t-shirt that says, "Relax, God is in control." So it must be true :laugh: :banana:

Does God being totally in control mean He controls us totally?

Nah, don't think so :o)

Quote from: dajomaco on December 14, 2012, 08:15:36 PM
God is not concerned with the conclusion of the billions.
He is with you and watching you to see what level of sovereignty
you ascribe to him.

Seriously?  God doesn't know how I feel about Him?  Is God waiting for me to enlighten Him?  How is this different from ded's assumption that God is dependent on experiential data to know things?

Quote from: eaglesway on December 14, 2012, 07:33:22 PM
"There is something mysterious going on here, or is it just God's way of communicating with us on our own level?"
I think it is a little of both. We try to draw hard lines around things Gods has deliberately left "between the lines" of assumptions & our pardigms. He may be getting a little enjoyment with all this, as we are trying to figure things out so we can best one another intellectually and claim the "deeper" understanding.

How can something be both a mystery and known?  With all due respect, I came here to learn, not to have my motives impuned!

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 08:18:02 AM
Does God being totally in control mean He controls us totally?

Nah, don't think so :o)

Either He will drag all to Him totally, or He won't.  If ded is right, God won't know whether He did or not, until it happens.  If you are right, then I can upset the whole thing by simply walking away ie. slipping out of God's control.  You can't have it both ways.  Either God is in control and the universe will go where He wills, or he is not, and my free will can thwart God's plans.

You are misundrstanding what ded said. All black and white, eh? There are many levels to the mysteries of the scriptiures, you have to read what people say and try to understand what they are saying.....not jump off the cuff with assumptions.

If I understood him correctly, Ded was saying that God "for-knows all" but experiences with us, as we experience, our lives. Then, He communicates with us on our level about the shared experience.

Right EW. I thought I made it clear that God knows everything intellectually.
There is a smaller subset of things that God knows experientially.
Abraham and Isaac - God knew Abraham would do what he did, and also KNEW he would stop him. - That's why there was a waiting nearby ram caught in the thicket to used as the substitute sacrifice. :Peace2:

Quote from: VineBranch on December 14, 2012, 05:03:51 AM

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 13, 2012, 02:53:25 PM
Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

Hi ded, thanks for the update.  If I may, I would like to request some clarification.

DNA is a code, but your called it a language code:  are you sure?  I am particularly worried that we may try to impose a structure which isn't there.  Although it has what my be called a protocol, somewhat akin to word order, DNA doesn't appear to have a grammar for example.  If Adam didn't have first hand knowledge of death, then he couldn't have been held responsible for knowing what it would do to him, so how could God hold him responsible for something if the only way he could truly know the consequence of the action, was to perform that act?

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 13, 2012, 02:53:25 PM
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand

You don't think it was because Jesus had become totally human and it was therefore necessary for Him to grow in a totally human way?

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 13, 2012, 02:53:25 PM
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.

This one confuses me the most; I also have to admit you have frightened me:  in fact given me the willies.  As soon as I read this my stomach did a flip-flop.  If God cannot know something (in any capacity) before He has seen a human perform it, then God is not omniscient.  In fact, man becomes God's teacher in your example.  If this is true, then God didn't know Adam would eat the fruit, until Adam ate the fruit; God wouldn't know Adam would die, until Adam died:  which makes His threat about the consequences of eating the fruit mere speculation on His part. If God didn't really know if Adam would die or not, how could Adam know?  How could he be held responsible if the results were mere conjecture? Is God running some cruel experiment?  Is He seeing if the world actually works the way He intellectually knows it should, but can't really be sure until He subjects it to some testing? I see you have received a lot of praise for this post, so I must be missing something.

Ahh! A breeze of reason, feels good. :dsunny:

 One thing that gives me the willies is the idea that every action/experience/thought in life is a kind of "forgone conclusion". This would, IMO, makes us marionettes, not new creations in Christ Jesus being transformed into the (inward/spiritual) likeness of the Son of God. Our interaction with God in our lifetimes must include on SOME LEVEL, a measure of genuiness in experience, spontaneous communication and real interaction in order to have any substance at all. To me, any thing less than a genuine experience lived out as I walk through my day would be a sham. As thankful as I am for the guidance and protection of the Great Shepherd, I am also thankful that I reap what I sow(within the moderation of His mercy) and that I am learning obedience through the things that I suffer. The minutae of what God has for-ordained on the grand scale of the ages exceeds the revelation of my day to day existence, through which God is both using me as a priest and a son, and training me for the exercise of a greater inheritance in the ages to come.

Foreknowledge, which is a part of omniscience, does not cause things to happen. When my children were born, I KNEW that if they lived long enough that they would sin. My foreknowledge in no way caused them to sin.
How close will you walk with God? That's up to you but it doesn't mean he already knows how close that walk will be.
Just like in the book of Jonah, God told Jonah to tell the Ninevites that he was going to destroy them for their sin. The Ninevites said to themselves, let us repent and do what's right. Who knows what may happen, God may see what we are doing and hold back his hand... Then it says God changed his mind and decided not to destroy the Ninevites.
I don't believe God changed his mind. I believe God knew all along the Ninevites would "straighten up" and plead for mercy.
I don't believe God ever changes his mind. That would make him changeable and therefore not God. Seeing the future does not cause the future. Of course God knew Adam would sin else Christ would not have been slain before the foundation of the world.
God told Job's friends that he would have Jonah pray for them and because of Jonah's prayer, He(God) would not destroy them. Foreknowledge does not make things happen - it's just knowing what will happen.

Here's a joke/illustration:
Old couple driving down the highway. Married for 40 years, she looks over at him driving. She says, "Paw, do you remember when we wuz dating and we'd drive down the road and I'd rest my head on your shoulder and put my hand on your knee and reach up and kiss your cheek every now and then?"
The old man looked at her breifly, then back at the road and said, "Maw, I haven't moved."

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 04:38:35 PM
All black and white, eh? There are many levels to the mysteries of the scriptiures, you have to read what people say and try to understand what they are saying.....not jump off the cuff with assumptions.

Excuse me?  It is exactly because I'm trying to divide the nuances in scripture that I am here; it's because I don't see it in black white that I ask questions:  what do mean?

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 04:38:35 PM
If I understood him correctly, Ded was saying that God "for-knows all" but experiences with us, as we experience, our lives. Then, He communicates with us on our level about the shared experience.

Sorry Eagle, that's not what he said.  The words were, "After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, 'NOW I know that you fear God...'  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially." (emphasis mine)  There was a temporally specific instant in which this knowledge came to God (ded used 'now' [he could have used then it would have amounted to the same thing]).  Once the event was placed inside time, ie it had a temporal origin, the for-knowing was eliminated as an option.  Either the knowledge was with God, or it came to Him from somewhere else.  If the latter, it wasn't for-knowing at all, merely guessing.

I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 15, 2012, 06:17:18 PM
How close will you walk with God? That's up to you but it doesn't mean he already knows how close that walk will be.

So, for all God knows, I could walk away from Him.  So, for all God knows, I could walk away so far as to be lost forever?  Seems to me what you saying is that God is not only not omniscient, He is not omnipotent either:  He can't stop me from not being with Him.  If He doesn't know, He doesn't know!

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 15, 2012, 06:17:18 PM
I don't believe God changed his mind. I believe God knew all along the Ninevites would "straighten up" and plead for mercy.

But according to your previous posts, He wouldn't have known it experientially.  So, how could you know what went through God's mind?

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 06:35:58 PM
I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

I know what he said, I'm querrying whether that is an explanation, or a retraction.  Not all explanations work for all people.  Assuming I should think like you and be persuaded by what persuades you is a bit black and white don't you think.

  those He foreKNEW He called.......in the tree of knowledge of good and evil..GOD IS THERE...we all know

  GOD..because in Him we live and move and have our being...the whole creation is made of His substance.

   the life force in you is of God...we are all little cells of His Great Body.[Immanuel].  He created man for

  HIS SPIRIT TO DWELL IN...that is what He chose as a temple[dwelling place] on this earth......the adversary

  abomination,entered His temple[sin entered]and sat as a god[rebellion spirit] in the temple of God........

  and exhibited the sinful nature in fallen man.  He who destroys the temple of God..God will destroy.....

  yes the spirits of rebellion shall be destroyed...for that is a pre-requisite for reconciliation.

   As long as the spirits of rebellion exist..there is no peace...HE WILL SEPERATE US FROM THEM....

   or the evil that be in our members shall be cut off[knowledge of good/evil]

    Tear down this temple and I shall raise it on the third day.

     the wicked will not learn righteousness....abyssed 1000 years...as soon as he is released..what does he do?

  it is the nature of the beast..it's nature is an evil contrast to God's.....He gives a new spirit and writes

  His laws/nature in our hearts..no longer a mix of good/godliness and evil/godlessness dwelling in our vessel

   thus victory..the struggle and wrestling is over...Incorruption/immortality/great peace and Blessing..no

  more curse..nor death,nor mourning,nor suffering nor tears.  AT-ONE with GOD..no adversarial division

   God is GOOD God is LOVE..Evil is hate......the scapegoat/Azazel...perishes in the wilderness[wicked

generation that perished in wilderness and did not enter in the promised land[freedom of sons of God from sin]

   Jesus as the Lord's lot goat was sacrificed..the other Azazel's[goat shaped demons in the wilderness]

   Jesus as strong man...placed the sin of the people squarely on the Azazel's goat head..goats like to lead

  the flock..and the adversarial rebellion spirit leads men into sin and rebellion to God.

   God/holy/obediant/loving/kind/godliness/peace/man in His image/Jesus/sheep led to waters of life

   Satan/unholy/rebellious/hateful/cruel/godlessness/strife/man of sin/son of perdition/goats to everlasting

  cutting off.

   as all in Adam have bore the image of the corruptible[good/evil mix] so too all shall bear the image of the incorrupt

  one..that was firstborn in Heaven..dwelt in flesh..was raised up firstborn from the dead

Quote from: VineBranch on December 15, 2012, 09:42:31 AM

Quote from: dajomaco on December 14, 2012, 08:15:36 PM
God is not concerned with the conclusion of the billions.
He is with you and watching you to see what level of sovereignty
you ascribe to him.

Seriously?  God doesn't know how I feel about Him?  Is God waiting for me to enlighten Him?  How is this different from ded's assumption that God is dependent on experiential data to know things?

It 's you who doesn't know how you feel about God.
His mercies are new every morning.
He is with you watching you as you experience him.
Whether he knows every feeling you have had
from the birth till now.
What did you call this morning, in your heart did you call it beautiful
did you call it surviving. Are you and God one now.
If not ask God.

I am saying the sovereignty of God is an aspect of our walk we grow in.
We can say intellectually every atomic particle is moved by God always.
But do we trust that sovereignty always.

I think every concern or anxiety or blessing we have.
Have never been before and is unique.

Gods sovereignty is a trust issue not a science issue .   

Quote from: VineBranch on December 15, 2012, 09:42:31 AM

Quote from: dajomaco on December 14, 2012, 08:15:36 PM
God is not concerned with the conclusion of the billions.
He is with you and watching you to see what level of sovereignty
you ascribe to him.

Seriously?  God doesn't know how I feel about Him?  Is God waiting for me to enlighten Him?  How is this different from ded's assumption that God is dependent on experiential data to know things?

God impressed me to pray for (not someone I "support") Hilary Clinton this morning after she fell and got a concussion.  I realized praying that prayer changed me.   

To me the real mystery is the WORD.
God spoke out loud and created.
The next voice heard was Adam naming the animals.
Did he have a similar yet filtered power when he spoke the name of each
animal out loud? Were the characteristics of the animal shaped by its name?

It was Adam you named and described Eve and her fuction.

Now today we have a mystery is there any power in Saying
Jesus is my Lord and I trust in God and I will be anxious for nothing.

I just said that out loud.

Can hardly wait for the Good Report.

Quote from: dajomaco on December 15, 2012, 08:20:58 PM
It 's you who doesn't know how you feel about God.

And you know this how?
 

Quote from: dajomaco on December 15, 2012, 08:20:58 PM
I think every concern or anxiety or blessing we have.
Have never been before and is unique.

And yet scripture would have us believe otherwise:  "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."  Ecc. 1:9 
 

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 06:35:58 PM
I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

So, you give yourself the right to insult my literary abilities and then take your ball and go home?  Okay see you!  No offense intended.

OK, one more time.
God knows everything - he is omniscient
God is omnipotent - he is all powerful

God knowing what will happen does not make it happen
Having the power to operate us all like puppets doesn't mean
that he does and it is contrary to his love nature to control us like puppets.

Concerning the example with the ninevites, I don't believe God changed his mind because 1.) God does not change and 2.) Knowing everything, he would already know the outcome and thus already knew what he would do. (The ninevites repenting)
Anthropomorphism is a literary device by which finite man is better able to understand the unfinite God. ("Like shadow me under your wings oh Lord')  :Peace2: :dsunny:

Quote from: VineBranch on December 15, 2012, 10:17:55 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 06:35:58 PM
I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

So, you give yourself the right to insult my literary abilities and then take your ball and go home?  Okay see you!  No offense intended.

VB,

I for one fully understand where you are coming from in these issues. I have been there, am there now, & will be there for the rest of this earthly existence. I have not put forth  a single comment about this subject matter simply because I too see so many seemingly inconsistent explanations about it directly from the pages of Holy Writ. I muse on the frailties of human intellect in satisfying our need for  comprehending the purpose of our short time on this planet.

I do know for certain, there are many passages of Holy Writ that are intended for a specific event for specific duration of time & often for only a specific individual or nation of individuals. Often we must discern Holy Writ in this light, it's part of the explanation as to why God gave humans a different brain than he gave to the animal kingdom, an organ to think & reason with.

It is my most sincere belief that if God intended for present day words of Holy Writ  to contain all the knowledge needed for the operations of the entirety of his created works, the book itself would be so unwieldly in size that the foundations of our planet could not support it, after all, God has already existed for eternity.

Probably one of the most outstanding gems for understanding God's purpose on the earth in the present age comes from Ecc 3: 10-11......."so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.". Hence, the Bible is an incompletely written book. God is plainly telling us that he has always intended we not comprehend issues that have been argued even before times that our Bibles have existed in the script form we have them today.

There is absolutely no one posting on any site anywhere in the world who can give you satisfactory answers to issues you raise, your issues are also mine. Issues like: Why does there need to be a Book of Revelation? Can't we all just get along? . See what I mean? And God's answer to us is: "....so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end". Doesn't seem like much of an answer to you does it? Nor to me......., but it's all we've got.

Next step is asking God for his peace to come over our minds like a blanket, until a time when he privileges us to gaze upon another chapter in a different Book intended for an age beyond the present eon.

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 15, 2012, 11:36:10 PM
OK, one more time.
God knows everything - he is omniscient
God is omnipotent - he is all powerful

God knowing what will happen does not make it happen
Having the power to operate us all like puppets doesn't mean
that he does and it is contrary to his love nature to control us like puppets.

Concerning the example with the ninevites, I don't believe God changed his mind because 1.) God does not change and 2.) Knowing everything, he would already know the outcome and thus already knew what he would do. (The ninevites repenting)
Anthropomorphism is a literary device by which finite man is better able to understand the unfinite God. ("Like shadow me under your wings oh Lord')  :Peace2: :dsunny:

"God knows everything - he is omniscient
God is omnipotent - he is all powerful"

I have no problem with these statements, I believe them to be true.  What gives me pause is that your examples and your explanations don't show this.  They show the opposite at times.  I am taking your examples to task, not your beliefs.  I took eagle's advise and very slowly re-read all your posts.  They don't advance the the claims you state:  some negate them.

"God knowing what will happen does not make it happen
Having the power to operate us all like puppets doesn't mean
that he does and it is contrary to his love nature to control us like puppets."

No where did I state anything resembling this.  I fear this may be a 'straw person' argument.

Quote from: Paul L on December 16, 2012, 12:09:21 AM
Next step is asking God for his peace to come over our minds like a blanket, until a time when he privileges us to gaze upon another chapter in a different Book intended for an age beyond the present eon.

Nice Paul!!

But someday Lucy is gonna get old and she won't be able to pull the ball away and, and, and, ... I'll be too old to kick it anyway. :laugh:

Well, I explained it best I could. I fail to see why you think one statement negates the other.
Do you believe that because God already knows what is going to happen that the knowledge somehow causes it? I've been saying the opposite. Ah well, no biggie. :Peace2: :dsunny:

Quote from: VineBranch on December 15, 2012, 10:17:55 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 06:35:58 PM
I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

So, you give yourself the right to insult my literary abilities and then take your ball and go home?  Okay see you!  No offense intended.

Folks, we are discussing in this thread things which have been meditated on and debated for centuries.  They may even be beyond the ability of our carnal, three-dimensional, linear-time minds to grasp.  Give VB a break, please.  Further, please do not assume, or presume things like a poster's intellect, literary skill, the size or their personal library, or where they are in their Christian walk, at least no more than you can justify from their posts, for we are a mere www community, and most of us do not know each other personally.   :2c:

Quote from: VineBranch on December 15, 2012, 10:11:08 PM

Quote from: dajomaco on December 15, 2012, 08:20:58 PM
It 's you who doesn't know how you feel about God.

And you know this how?

No one is old enough  to know how they truly feel about God. 

Quote from: dajomaco on December 15, 2012, 08:20:58 PM
I think every concern or anxiety or blessing we have.
Have never been before and is unique.

And yet scripture would have us believe otherwise:  "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."  Ecc. 1:9 

As for your thoughts, your own private thoughts that cause the sensation of feelings.
These feelings are new under the Sun for you.

You and God are the only ones, who know, how you truly feel.
As you experience Joy The Lord is your joy.

Quote from: VineBranch on December 15, 2012, 06:48:03 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 06:35:58 PM
I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)

In addition Ded explained himself in a subsequent post, so I will let this be my last response to the matter, No offence intended, Peace out, John

I know what he said, I'm querrying whether that is an explanation, or a retraction.  Not all explanations work for all people.  Assuming I should think like you and be persuaded by what persuades you is a bit black and white don't you think.

You can't speak clearly enough for someone determined not to hear you.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 17, 2012, 01:53:31 AM
You can't speak clearly enough for someone determined not to hear you.

Since reply #52 you have been taking shots at me and using ad hominem arguments; you've ambushed me and generally used nahnahnah booboo replies, apparently because I disagree with ded.  Are you sure you're a moderator?

Actually Vine Branch, I haven't been taking any shots at you. It seemed to me you misinterpreted Deds post, I was simply attempting to respond ideologically.

You insisted Ded was saying thus and so....I am saying, essentially,"That's not what I got out of it, maybe you should take another look." It is that simple.

If you are wondering whether or not I am a moderator, well, yes, I am and I think you still need to take another look, because you seem determined to engage in an unnecessary conflict.

This is a blog. We have differing ideas. We discuss them. There is nothing personal about it and no need to make it so.

I believe if I am understanding you Vinebranch that I agree with you that God is all knowing in everyway. I don't think God knows things intellectually beforehand but then has to have others experience them, for him to experientially know them if that makes sense. We as people may have to experience things in that way but we are man not God. I would not think that God is in any respect similar to man. He is the only power, he is eternal, all things come from him. There is nothing that can be added or taken away from him. We as man have nothing to offer him that could possibly increase his knowledge in anyway. Free Will is simply an illusion, man is a creature of circumstances, how we will behave is predictable, especially to one who knows the hearts of man.

This is the simplest way I can think of it.:
I know my 4 month old grandson will sin. I haven't experienced this yet but I know he will. My knowledge that he will does not cause him to do it.
I know I'm going to physically die. I haven't experienced it yet but my knowledge of my death certainly does not cause me to die.
God knows everything intellectually. He knew that the shooting at the elementary would take place in Conneticut. His knowledge did not cause it to happen. He knew it experientially while/after it happened. IMO, God could not have known it experientially until it happened even though he already knew it intellectually.
If God knew everything in everyway and Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, why go through the experience? God surely could have figured out a way to reconcile others to himself, he makes the rules.
God cannot do everything. He cannot sin, he cannot lie, he cannot NOT love, he can't make an object so heavy that even he can't lift it

Personally and in my opinion believe and understand that
Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Was the first step into the reconciliation of ALL things unto Him. When circumstances happen in each of a human beings life, there is nothing to do but eat (Gen.3:6 and James 1:14), until a human being is drawn by the Father to Jesus Christ, thus is man...."for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'"
I don't see a choice, until man has a change of mind(Rom. 8:20), then the mind of Christ will chose[still, that mind must mature] to make the good choice.

aMEN,mICAH!

    THE WHOLE CREATION CAN NOT BE MORE THAN WHAT HE MAKES OF IT..WHETHER A VESSEL

  FITTED FOR DESTRUCTION OR PREPARED BEFOREHAND FOR MERCY AND GLORY.

   YOU CAN DO NOTHING OF YOURSELF[REMAIN IN HIM]...

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 17, 2012, 04:17:50 PM
This is the simplest way I can think of it.:
I know my 4 month old grandson will sin. I haven't experienced this yet but I know he will. My knowledge that he will does not cause him to do it.
I know I'm going to physically die. I haven't experienced it yet but my knowledge of my death certainly does not cause me to die.
God knows everything intellectually. He knew that the shooting at the elementary would take place in Conneticut. His knowledge did not cause it to happen. He knew it experientially while/after it happened. IMO, God could not have known it experientially until it happened even though he already knew it intellectually.
If God knew everything in everyway and Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, why go through the experience? God surely could have figured out a way to reconcile others to himself, he makes the rules.
God cannot do everything. He cannot sin, he cannot lie, he cannot NOT love, he can't make an object so heavy that even he can't lift it

Everything that happens must be in Gods plan. When God created man he knew exactly where it was going to go and that was his plan. Like it says "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." As for the other things, I believe you are thinking of God in human terms. He can not lie or sin because he is not flesh, he is spirit. He has the ability to create beings that lie and sin and in a way he creates the concept of lies and sins.  Personally I think when you are sovereign as God is you control everything.

Seems like some of you are making it sound like God exists within time, so that God does something one moment, then something happens, then God does something else and so on. But that would make time God. I believe time exists within God, not God within time. We may not be able to understand that well, but it certainly seems ruled out that God could be dependent on or subservient to time or anything else. It seems likely that time (as well as space) is somewhat of an illusion, or unclear experience.

God is everywhere in and out of time. He is over all in all and through all. He is self existent and uncreated(fathom that) and everything that exists along with every sentient being that ever was, is or will be has come forth from Him and will return to Him.
A part of the process by which He has determined all these things to become one in Him is called Time. We live in it and He is living in it with us but He is not subject to it in anyway beyond what ever self restraints He has chosen for Himself in order to teach us how to BE like Him, the I AM. God is surprised by nothing, but, in my opinion takes joy in EXPERIENCING the growth of His creation and His communion with it as it emerges from chaos, into universal harmony- resulting in universal freedom. All this is through the cross of Jesus, the sacrifice Lamb and the shed blood of the Son of God.

Ain't it wonnerful :o)

YES IT IS!!

IN THE beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.
And God saw that the light was good (suitable, pleasant) and He approved it; and God separated the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

(Gen 1:1-5)

And God SAW THE LIGHT AND APPROVED IT. What does this mean? Did God experience something? Surely He knew before He SPOKE what the light would be IN HIS MIND but the actual creation of it initiated a VISCERAL RESPONSE FROM GOD. Did God create the universe only for us? or for Himself also?

Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved, in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth--in him;
(Eph 1:3-12)


O depth of riches, and wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! for who did know the mind of the Lord? or who did become His counsellor? or who did first give to Him, and it shall be given back to him again? because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory--to the ages. Amen.
(Rom 11:33-36, YLT)

Quote from: eaglesway on December 18, 2012, 02:46:24 AM
IN THE beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.
And God saw that the light was good (suitable, pleasant) and He approved it; and God separated the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

(Gen 1:1-5)

And God SAW THE LIGHT AND APPROVED IT. What does this mean? Did God experience something? Surely He knew before He SPOKE what the light would be IN HIS MIND but the actual creation of it initiated a VISCERAL RESPONSE FROM GOD. Did God create the universe only for us? or for Himself also?

Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved, in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth--in him;
(Eph 1:3-12)


O depth of riches, and wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! for who did know the mind of the Lord? or who did become His counsellor? or who did first give to Him, and it shall be given back to him again? because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory--to the ages. Amen.
(Rom 11:33-36, YLT)

The God in the Genesis account is  אלהים 'ĕlohı̂̂ym, "God." The noun אלוה 'elôah or אלה 'eloah. I believe this is Plural and referring to the Elohim or mighty ones, angels who do Gods will.  So that explains why the emotions are expressed in a human type fashion. If you look closely at Genesis 1:26 in any bible "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness" You can see it is "Our" image also plural but still using the word eloah translated God. The actual YHWH is not mentioned till later, I believe when it is YHWH Eloah, something along the lines of I will be in mighty ones, although that may not be a correct translation it is something probably close to that.

"The Divine Name, Yahweh, is composed of the elements of the verb "to become." Yahweh is "I am that I am," or literally, "I am becoming Who I am becoming" (Ex.3:14). In Revelation 1:8 John seems to give the meaning of the Name for His Greek readers: Who is and Who was and Who is coming (cf 1:4; 4:8 and 11:17; 16:5 where the future is omitted)." (www.concordant.org)

The fact they have not translated these things correctly makes it more complicated than it should be. We know there is only one God so it is impossible that eloah and our image can be referring to God directly. It therefor must refer to the angels who did the actual creating, at Gods Command of course.

"It therefore must" and "of course" I would definitely disagree with :o)

Me too.  I had subscribed to the orthodox Trinity, and then one day I saw in the Revelation a mention of the seven Spirits of God.  Hmmmmmm...Seven + Father + Son = nine member of the Godhead, a Trinity of Trinities.  How about that? 

omantodd -Actually, I don't disagree that the angelic hosts may have participated in the creation, in which case, "In the beginning" refers to the creation of the present cosmos out of the chaos of the last or some such theory. I kind of subscribe at present to the idea that the "days" were very long and the angels were created along with the heavens as the "waters above were separated from the waters below", but I have no fixed position on it.

My objection to your conclusion is only because Elohiym is used over 2000 times in the OT, over 200 times in Genesis alone, so the idea that it was DEFINITELY the angels "seeing the light and approving that it is good" is no absolute by any means.

One does not need to go to far through the occurences of Eloyhim to see that many(most) of them must refer to the One and Only- altho perhaps highlighting the aspect of Him as sitting in counsel, such as in Psalms, "Elohiym reigns over the assembly of Elohiym." God rules over the assembly of the gods, or, as I read it, the Mighty One rules over the assembly of the Mighty Ones.

I would love to go through them all, but 2,601 is just TOO many :o)

Hey Laz, I have permission to open up a "Godhead Thread". I have been a little too busy to do it but at some point after the holidays, I am going to lob it up there and see who swings ;o) Should be fun.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 18, 2012, 04:01:43 AM
omantodd -Actually, I don't disagree that the angelic hosts may have participated in the creation, in which case, "In the beginning" refers to the creation of the present cosmos out of the chaos of the last or some such theory. I kind of subscribe at present to the idea that the "days" were very long and the angels were created along with the heavens as the "waters above were separated from the waters below", but I have no fixed position on it.

My objection to your conclusion is only because Elohiym is used over 2000 times in the OT, over 200 times in Genesis alone, so the idea that it was DEFINITELY the angels "seeing the light and approving that it is good" is no absolute by any means.

One does not need to go to far through the occurences of Eloyhim to see that many(most) of them must refer to the One and Only- altho perhaps highlighting the aspect of Him as sitting in counsel, such as in Psalms, "Elohiym reigns over the assembly of Elohiym." God rules over the assembly of the gods, or, as I read it, the Mighty One rules over the assembly of the Mighty Ones.

I would love to go through them all, but 2,601 is just TOO many :o)

Hebrew 13:2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. This shows we resemble the angels. If they created us in their image that would make sense to me.

Elohim is used thousands of times in the bible, sometimes Yehweh Elohim, I believe that would referring directly to God. I think each use requires context and what else is attached to the word. When it is directly followed by "our" though, a pluaral I think it is clear we are dealing with a plural eloah and not a singular God.

As far as the creation days go I think they were literal days but the creation of the of the Heavens and Earth were not included in the first day simply as it says in the beginning they were created.  If the plants were created on the third day, the Sun and moon not set in place till the 4th and insects like bees required to pollinate the plants till the 5th day. Well the plants would not last to long without proper sunlight and pollination for flowering plants, so how far apart could the days be? As for the creation of angles the bible does not say so I have no opinion.

"Elohim is used thousands of times in the bible, sometimes Yehweh Elohim, I believe that would referring directly to God. I think each use requires context and what else is attached to the word. When it is directly followed by "our" though, a pluaral I think it is clear we are dealing with a plural eloah and not a singular God."

Perhaps, but this would not preclude the One and Only from speaking in the eloah. Nor would it preclude the possibility that "And God saw the light and that it was good and approved it" referring to His experience in the event as well as those with Him in it- thus, my objection to "therefore it must" and  "of course" :o)

GOD AS THE GREATER ABRAHAM CREATED THE CELESTIAL BODIES/BEINGS ON THE FOURTH DAY

  GENESIS 1;14      YOUR  SEED AS THE STARS IN THE HEAVENS AND SANDS OF THE SEA =

CELESTIAL AND TERRESTIAL IN HIS IMAGE

Yea that rings true with me Sheila. I just like to speak of things seen through a glass darkly with "mystical respect" because I think if God was so concerned about us getting "the exact dope" on it, He would have written more about it..... but thas jus me :o)

I can't wait to see the movie that explains it all clearly during our "orientation" into the Melchizedek priesthood :O)

Quote from: eaglesway on December 18, 2012, 04:37:02 AM
"Elohim is used thousands of times in the bible, sometimes Yehweh Elohim, I believe that would referring directly to God. I think each use requires context and what else is attached to the word. When it is directly followed by "our" though, a pluaral I think it is clear we are dealing with a plural eloah and not a singular God."

Perhaps, but this would not preclude the One and Only from speaking in the eloah. Nor would it preclude the possibility that "And God saw the light and that it was good and approved it" referring to His experience in the event as well as those with Him in it- thus, my objection to "therefore it must" and  "of course" :o)

Well I tend to look at things in the most reasonable and logical way and draw conclusion. If you put into the equation anything is possible then it really gets you nowhere in the long run. The eloah spoken is spoken of as a plural on day 6 of creation, if keeping the reading in context it would give me no reason to assume it is a singular eloah a few verses before doing the other. Also shortly after that YHWH Elohim is spoken of and I take that to be the first time the Singular Yehweh God is spoken of. You can disagree with that but personally I have no reason or evidence to believe otherwise, it seems clear. If you have Biblical evidence to the contrary please let me know.

Maybe you are missing my point:o)  I am not trying to disagree with your statement about the eloah. I am saying there is not enough empirical evidence in that to exclude the voice of YHWH from the response to the creation of light and limit it to the angels.

In my post, that you responded to, I was introducing the question/idea, "Did God experience anything in the creation". My point was directed to whether, as some seem to infer, that everything is such a foregone conclusion that God does not experience anything as that which is finished in His mind, "becomes real" in time.

My point with you has been STRICTLY LIMITED as to whether or not the plural use of elohiym somehow affects that in some way. I don't think it does.

"Actually Vine Branch, I haven't been taking any shots at you. It seemed to me you misinterpreted Deds post, I was simply attempting to respond ideologically."   (Eaglesway, Reply #77, December 17, 2012, 09:11:19 AM)

Are you serious?  You left a paper trail.  Seriously dude, denial is a lie and not an option.  Allow me to refresh your memory.

"You are misundrstanding what ded said. All black and white, eh? There are many levels to the mysteries of the scriptiures, you have to read what people say and try to understand what they are saying.....not jump off the cuff with assumptions." (Reply #52)  First you interpret what I say and instead of calling it different, you call it wrong (I didn't understand it correctly), then you take my thought processes to task (accusing me of seeing things only in black and white).  Thirdly you accuse me of not trying to understand the post and then jumping of a cuff (I have no idea what that means).

"I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)" (Reply #59)  You don't think that condescending, using yourself as the paragon of understanding and giving remedial advise to one who saw it differently?


"You can't speak clearly enough for someone determined not to hear you." (Reply #75)  You actually placed this right after a direct quote from me.

I would advise you to re-read reply 73 by Lazarus short (if you read it at all) .   I got what he said right away, but the fact that you continued to keep this going after he posted his reply shows me you didn't.  In order for you to have the right understanding, you might want to re-read it slowly and thoroughly:  I know how you hate it when people don't do that.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 18, 2012, 06:52:54 AM
Maybe you are missing my point:o)  I am not trying to disagree with your statement about the eloah. I am saying there is not enough empirical evidence in that to exclude the voice of YHWH from the response to the creation of light and limit it to the angels.

In my post, that you responded to, I was introducing the question/idea, "Did God experience anything in the creation". My point was directed to whether, as some seem to infer, that everything is such a foregone conclusion that God does not experience anything as that which is finished in His mind, "becomes real" in time.

My point with you has been STRICTLY LIMITED as to whether or not the plural use of elohiym somehow affects that in some way. I don't think it does.

Well you can never exclude YHWH in any of it, the angles or eloah do only Gods will.  Well we will just agree to disagree then as I don't think it is even talking about God directly but of angels.

Quoteauthor=VineBranch link=topic=10878.msg146443#msg146443 date=1355809364]

Quote"Actually Vine Branch, I haven't been taking any shots at you. It seemed to me you misinterpreted Deds post, I was simply attempting to respond ideologically."   (Eaglesway, Reply #77, December 17, 2012, 09:11:19 AM)

Are you serious?  You left a paper trail.  Seriously dude, denial is a lie and not an option.  Allow me to refresh your memory.

"You are misundrstanding what ded said. All black and white, eh? There are many levels to the mysteries of the scriptiures, you have to read what people say and try to understand what they are saying.....not jump off the cuff with assumptions." (Reply #52)  First you interpret what I say and instead of calling it different, you call it wrong (I didn't understand it correctly), then you take my thought processes to task (accusing me of seeing things only in black and white).  Thirdly you accuse me of not trying to understand the post and then jumping of a cuff (I have no idea what that means).

"I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)" (Reply #59)  You don't think that condescending, using yourself as the paragon of understanding and giving remedial advise to one who saw it differently?


"You can't speak clearly enough for someone determined not to hear you." (Reply #75)  You actually placed this right after a direct quote from me.

I would advise you to re-read reply 73 by Lazarus short (if you read it at all) .   I got what he said right away, but the fact that you continued to keep this going after he posted his reply shows me you didn't.  In order for you to have the right understanding, you might want to re-read it slowly and thoroughly:  I know how you hate it when people don't do that.

VB,

I presume you understand the concept of Preterism Theology alias Replacement Theology. Eagleway is hardcore Replacement Theology, that is that the Christian Church has become the inheritor of the promises God has given to Israel. He makes no wall of separation between Body of Christ Saints & Israelite Saints. Until such a time as the Christian church knuckles under & recognizes this distinction, it will continue to twist & mangle plain & clearly written words of Holy Writ to suit  unfounded conclusions, the conclusions of Replacement Theology.

Christ's ministry was to Israelite saints, he clearly stated his ministry was to the House of Israel, not Gentiles, he spoke nothing of the Body of Christ. It is the Apostle Paul who introduced the Body of Christ to the world, thus began a whole new era of salvation to all, a revelation heretofore unheard of from the time of Moses.

Body of Christ saints have different promises than Israelite saints. Body of Christ saints must undergo change of their mortal bodies to immortal bodies to inherit their promises which exist beyond the environs of planet earth. Israelite saints are returned to their mortal bodies when they are resurrected, the prophetic text in Ezekiel 37 plainly attests to this. This of course is in sharp variance to the statements made by the apostle Paul that those who go up with Christ in the resurrection of the Body of Christ will be "changed", 1 Cor 15:51-54, a heretofore unknown secret has been revealed by Paul of a resurrection that involves "changed" bodies, this  is in sharp variance to what Ezekiel speaks of as a resurrection back to the same old flesh & blood for Israelite saints. Body of Christ saints have different promises than Israelite saints, I don't want to come back as flesh & blood & undergo this fleshly life stuff all over again.

I know it is only the words of Paul but:

Rom 10:10-13 -
"10 When we believe in our hearts, we are made right with God. We tell with our mouth how we were saved from the punishment of sin. 11 The Holy Writings say, "No one who puts his trust in Christ will ever be put to shame." 12 There is no difference between the Jews and the people who are not Jews. They are all the same to the Lord. And He is Lord over all of them. He gives of His greatness to all who call on Him for help. 13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved from the punishment of sin."

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall He make to understand DOCTRINE? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts [ready for solid foods and Paul would say]. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon LINE; HERE a little, and THERE a little" (Isa. 28:9-10).

So what real, Scriptural, justification is there for teaching that God has TWO different groups of saints?, who were taught TWO different gospels?, who are saved by TWO different methods (works and grace)?, who are looking for TWO different comings of our Lord?, who will be resurrected at TWO different times?, at TWO different places?, with TWO different bodies (terrestrial and celestial)?, for TWO different callings and expectations?, always being with Christ at TWO different locations?, and having TWO different rewards (one "UNUTTERABLY HIGHER" THAN THE OTHER)?, when the facts of God's Word tells us otherwise?

That there were, historically and Scripturally, two different groups of people who received the ONE gospel, there can be no question. Jesus came unto His own (Israel) and except for those designated for the kingdom beforehand, as a nation Israel rejected Him and crucified Him. But Jesus told His disciples after marveling over the faith of one Gentile Centurion, that

"... MANY shall come from the east and the west [Gentiles], and shall sit down WITH Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of Heaven [not to some different calling at a different location]..." (Mat. 8:11-12).

Clearly the Gentile saints are going to be WITH the Jewish saints in the Kingdom of Heaven!

Jesus Christ Himself foretold of the one union of these two different peoples:

"And other sheep have I which are not of this fold. Those also I must be leading, and they will be hearing My voice, and there will be O-N-E FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD" (John 10:16)!

Since our Lord says that there is "ONE flock and ONE Shepherd" who is man to SPLIT THEM INTO TWO?

"What GOD then, yokes together, let not MAN be SEPARATING" (Mat. 29:6)!

Paul told the Thessalonian Gentile (and Jewish) saints that they would all be

"... unblamable in holiness in front of our God and Father, in the presence of our Lord Jesus with ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13)!

And Zechariah said,

"And the Lord, my God, shall come, And ALL THE SAINTS WITH HIM" (Zech. 14:7)!

Now, how many groups of "ALL the saints" are there? We object to those who would make two different groups of the "all" in I Cor. 15:22,

"For even as in Adam, ALL are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall ALL be vivified."

Clearly these are both the SAME "ALL."

And so it is with "ALL" the saints. We are not speaking of ALL the saints verses ALL the unbelievers. That would be two different groups. But no, we are speaking of "ALL the saints"(I Thes. 3:13), and "ALL the saints" (Zech. 14:7). If "all the saints" are not included in "ALL the saints," then maybe we should start looking for another form of communication that doesn't use words.

Do we think that Jesus prayed in vain

"Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, in which Thou hast given them to Me, that they be one, according as We are" (John 17:11)

"... That they all may be ONE" ... "That they also may be ONE in US..." (Ver 21),

"... that they may be ONE, according as We are ONE ... that they may be perfected in ONE ..." (Ver 22).

Later Paul taught us that,

"For even as, in one body, we have many members, yet all the members have not the same function, thus we, who are many, are ONE body in Christ ..." (Rom. 12:4).

Whoever is "IN Christ" is ONE--ONE body. For there is only ONE body:

"I am entreating you, then ... keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace: ONE BODY ..." (Eph. 4:1,3-4).

Now just in case someone has the audacity to suggest that the "one body" of this one verse is only in the CONTEXT of these verses, let me present the following:

According to Eph. 4:1-5, how many "Gods" are there? "ONE God and Father of all ..." (Ver 5). How many "Lords" are there? "... ONE Lord ..." (Ver 5). Is someone seriously going to suggest that it is only in the "CONTEXT" of these verses that there is ONE God and ONE Lord?

Yes, there is but ONE God and ONE Lord--in this "context" or in ANY context! And, if one insists on "contexts," then also in this context there is but: "ONE body and ONE spirit, according as you were called also with ONE expectation of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God and Father of all, Who is over all and through all and in all" (Eph. 4:4-5)! I am convinced that there are probably a THOUSAND ways to prove that there are not TWO different groups of saints that will be raised at two separate comings of our Lord.

Let's notice just one more in these verses. Notice that there is "... one SPIRIT ..." Notice also that there is a "... UNITY of the spirit ..." Okay then, by the unity of one spirit the apostles (and Circumcision Saints) were made ONE in Christ and the Father (John 17). Now Paul comes along and is inspired to tell us (Uncircumcision Saints) that we should "... KEEP the unity of the spirit ..." Let me suggest in all sincerity that one does not "keep the unity of the spirit" by splitting asunder the very saints that make up that unity! And there are so many examples of this truth.

Notice:

"I am the true Grapevine, and My Father is the Farmer ... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).

Paul thoroughly explains this in a similar metaphor in Rom. 11.

"... if the root is holy, the boughs are also. Now if some of the boughs are broken out [the Jews], yet you, being a wild olive [Gentiles], are grafted among them [not on a different olive tree], and become JOINT participant [not a separate, different, more 'holier than thou' group of saints] of the root and fatness of the olive, be not VAUNTING over the boughs. Yet if you are vaunting, you are not bearing the root, but the root you."

"Vaunting." Vaunting is vain boasting. Need I reiterate the attitude that goes along with this secret rapture theory? Listen again to what we have read:

"But our future allotment will not simply be glorious. That would not be too strong a term for the allotment of Israel on the earth. OURS WILL BY FAR TRANSCEND IT." (Page 51, Consolation in Expectation).

"But this is not OUR calling! WE will not be the lowest on earth, BUT THE HIGHEST IN THE HEAVENS!" (Page 48).

"This new faith, which made the nations the peer of Israelites in an allotment UNUTTERABLY HIGHER than that which they will have upon the earth ..." (Page 51).

Notice what God says regarding such attitudes:

"Be NOT haughty, but fear. For if God spares not the natural boughs, neither will He be sparing YOU!" (Rom. 11:20-21).

Paul then explains that when Israel is again grafted back into the same olive tree, they will be every bit as glorious as those (Gentiles) who were grafted in from a wild olive tree! So

"God locks up all together [both Jews and Gentiles] in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to ALL [Jews and Gentiles]" (Ver 32).

And so a few verses later Paul tells us that we who are many [Jews and Gentiles, all believers, ALL the saints] "... ARE ONE BODY IN CHRIST" (Rom. 12:5). Listen, Paul's thoughts and prayers were always with the Jewish saints in Judea (Rom. 9:3), and Peters thoughts and prayers were always with the Gentile believers under Paul's care (II Pet. 3:15-16).

Peter read and studied "... ALL the [Paul's] epistles ..." In Rom. 15:4 Paul says "... that through the endurance and the consolation of the SCRIPTURES we may have expectation." The only Scriptures at this time were the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures. And any "expectation" of the Gentiles would be one shared with Israel. Later Paul says that Christ came to the Circumcision, "... to confirm the patriarchal promises" (Rom. 15:8). With this promise in mind, Paul says, "... it is written ...'Be merry, ye nations, WITH HIS PEOPLE [Israel]" (Ver 9 & 10).

Can't we believe these verses? The Gentiles have their expectation "WITH" God's people Israel. Not in a reward that is a million light years away and a million times higher than "His people, Israel.:" Jump across the page, "... yet now I [Paul] am going to Jerusalem, DISPENSING [service] TO THE SAINTS [Circumcision Jews]!" (Rom. 15:26). Paul said that Macedonia and Achaia are delighted to send contributions to the poor saints in Jerusalem. He says that "For they are delighted, and they are their DEBTORS, for if the nations PARTICIPATE in their SPIRITUAL things, they ought to minister to them in fleshly things also" (Ver. 27).

The Gentiles participate in the spiritual things of ISRAEL!

The Gentiles' "consolation in expectation" is found in the Hebrew Old Testament concerning ISRAEL. They are now "ONE body, in Christ [with Israel]." They "PARTICIPATE in THEIR [Israel's] spiritual things" The Gentiles who were "... alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers of the promise covenants, having NO expectation, and WITHOUT God in the world ... nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the TWO [Circumcision Jews and Uncircumcision Gentiles], in Himself, into ONE new humanity, making peace; and should be reconciling both in ONE BODY to God ... for through Him we both [Jews and Gentiles] have had access, in ONE spirit ... Consequently, then, no longer are you strangers and sojourners, but are FELLOW-CITIZENS OF THE SAINTS [The Circumcision Saints] and belong to God's family ..." (Eph. 2:12-19). (L. R. S.)

Quoteauthor=micah7:9 link=topic=10878.msg146464#msg146464 date=1355846327]

QuoteSo what real, Scriptural, justification is there for teaching that God has TWO different groups of saints?

Exactly what I pointed out in the two extraordinarily differently described resurrections. That which Paul spoke of in which those of the Body of Christ are "changed" to immortality, and those which Ezekiel pointed out in chap 37 that the House of Israel is resurrected only to return to flesh & blood. It's simply a matter of accepting the words of the text & then musing about why such a stark difference.

Body of Christ saints do not operate concurrent with Israelite saints, that is why there are two much differently described resurrections. Body of Christ saints live within the period of the commencement of the Apostle Paul's ministry ushering in the age of grace & the end of that age. The age of grace concludes when the Body is removed & the time for fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy commences.

Did you miss the word ONE?

Interesting,Paul.

I've been nibbling around the edges of this, myself.

God divorced the house of Israel, but he never divorced the house of Judah.

So I can't really see how calling Judah a bride of Christ makes  a lot of sense.

Quote from: Paul L on December 18, 2012, 03:08:04 PM

Quoteauthor=VineBranch link=topic=10878.msg146443#msg146443 date=1355809364]

Quote"Actually Vine Branch, I haven't been taking any shots at you. It seemed to me you misinterpreted Deds post, I was simply attempting to respond ideologically."   (Eaglesway, Reply #77, December 17, 2012, 09:11:19 AM)

Are you serious?  You left a paper trail.  Seriously dude, denial is a lie and not an option.  Allow me to refresh your memory.

"You are misundrstanding what ded said. All black and white, eh? There are many levels to the mysteries of the scriptiures, you have to read what people say and try to understand what they are saying.....not jump off the cuff with assumptions." (Reply #52)  First you interpret what I say and instead of calling it different, you call it wrong (I didn't understand it correctly), then you take my thought processes to task (accusing me of seeing things only in black and white).  Thirdly you accuse me of not trying to understand the post and then jumping of a cuff (I have no idea what that means).

"I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)" (Reply #59)  You don't think that condescending, using yourself as the paragon of understanding and giving remedial advise to one who saw it differently?


"You can't speak clearly enough for someone determined not to hear you." (Reply #75)  You actually placed this right after a direct quote from me.

I would advise you to re-read reply 73 by Lazarus short (if you read it at all) .   I got what he said right away, but the fact that you continued to keep this going after he posted his reply shows me you didn't.  In order for you to have the right understanding, you might want to re-read it slowly and thoroughly:  I know how you hate it when people don't do that.

VB,

I presume you understand the concept of Preterism Theology alias Replacement Theology. Eagleway is hardcore Replacement Theology, that is that the Christian Church has become the inheritor of the promises God has given to Israel. He makes no wall of separation between Body of Christ Saints & Israelite Saints. Until such a time as the Christian church knuckles under & recognizes this distinction, it will continue to twist & mangle plain & clearly written words of Holy Writ to suit  unfounded conclusions, the conclusions of Replacement Theology.

Christ's ministry was to Israelite saints, he clearly stated his ministry was to the House of Israel, not Gentiles, he spoke nothing of the Body of Christ. It is the Apostle Paul who introduced the Body of Christ to the world, thus began a whole new era of salvation to all, a revelation heretofore unheard of from the time of Moses.

Body of Christ saints have different promises than Israelite saints. Body of Christ saints must undergo change of their mortal bodies to immortal bodies to inherit their promises which exist beyond the environs of planet earth. Israelite saints are returned to their mortal bodies when they are resurrected, the prophetic text in Ezekiel 37 plainly attests to this. This of course is in sharp variance to the statements made by the apostle Paul that those who go up with Christ in the resurrection of the Body of Christ will be "changed", 1 Cor 15:51-54, a heretofore unknown secret has been revealed by Paul of a resurrection that involves "changed" bodies, this  is in sharp variance to what Ezekiel speaks of as a resurrection back to the same old flesh & blood for Israelite saints. Body of Christ saints have different promises than Israelite saints, I don't want to come back as flesh & blood & undergo this fleshly life stuff all over again.

Actually Paul I am not hadcore replacement theology. Youe seem to be busy about reactionary response and categorizing people. Unfruitful as those categorizations are in the first place, you would seem to have all of the body of Christ broken into two camps. I don't recognize those parameters as accurate ar all. The idea of coming back in a fleshly body, for instance, is something I know no one who believes that. The ressurection is immortal and spiritual; and the glory of the resurrected body is without sin, infirmity of death- as Jesus described it, "like the angels in heaven".

I want to make it clear here that these are simply discussions. This is a blog that has a preset focus(by its owner) towards the salvation of all. Whatever someones theological baseline- we are not here to "debate" such positions- but we can discuss them as long as they do not engender strife and unecessary conflict.

Now, if I have failed in some measure to be as conciliatory in my repsonse as I ought to, I offer apologies to whoever has taken offence.

That does not change the fact tho, that we are not here to judge one another over periferral theoligcal issues or to establish a "preterist primary" bent or a "literalist historical" bent. Anyone from any background can participate in the celebration of the UR perspective. That is what we are here for.

...actually...when your resurrected the earth gives you back as it received you[by this i mean form/recognizable]

  this is so the living will know that the dead are resurrected..after that is testified you make take on any form you like

  gardner,stranger,angel..etc.[like God appeared as man when come down to inspect sodom and gomorrah...]

      the thing is..these new creatures in heaven can start lighting up like a lightbulb.  this light starts up

  in the forehead[yep there really is a mark on the forehead] and totally obliterates former facial features

  it is like a man walking around with a sun shining on His head.[p.s. Moses had to wear a veil for a while]

  big clue in..when it says God is light..that is not a misnomer

    I don't expect you all to take my word for it..but when you see for yourself...you'll know..and you will

I'm going to post a few reminders and a request;

this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a general debate forum;

we're asked to discuss ideas, concepts, understandings, ALL within the scriptures, related somehow to UR, and in the spirit and attitude of "AS I UNDERSTAND".  A personal blog is for teaching/insisting one's own view is the only correct one, which is not what TM DF is.

Personal attacks, personal insults are not allowed - even unecessary personal inuendo (bating, flaming).  We're skirting the edges here, and the tone has become unecessarily unpleasant.

An apology/offer of conciliation has been made, and it"s asked that we return to discussion that's fruitful about the scriptures, or the thread will be locked.  Any further personal issues need to go to PM so as to end distraction from the purposes of the boards.  Thanks and blessings to all.  We are loved and accepted in the Beloved.  Writer included, as I often fail - let us strive to walk as such.   :HeartThrob:

Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer everyone.  Colossians 4:6

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 18, 2012, 05:25:59 PM
I know it is only the words of Paul but:

Rom 10:10-13 -
"10 When we believe in our hearts, we are made right with God. We tell with our mouth how we were saved from the punishment of sin. 11 The Holy Writings say, "No one who puts his trust in Christ will ever be put to shame." 12 There is no difference between the Jews and the people who are not Jews. They are all the same to the Lord. And He is Lord over all of them. He gives of His greatness to all who call on Him for help. 13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved from the punishment of sin."

Absolutely correct, during this "age of grace", as ushered in by the Apostle Paul. The dispensation  of the age of grace became the heart & core of the ascendancy of "dispensationalism" in the mid 1800's. They at least got the most important thing right while breaking ten centuries of shackles during the dark ages. During this "age of grace", all are welcomed into the Body of Christ. The "age of grace" will be shut down at the exact moment of the commencement of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, then it becomes all about Israel again & the gentiles are shut out.

Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10878.msg146481#msg146481 date=1355854638]

Quote from: Paul L on December 18, 2012, 03:08:04 PM

Quoteauthor=VineBranch link=topic=10878.msg146443#msg146443 date=1355809364]

Quote"Actually Vine Branch, I haven't been taking any shots at you. It seemed to me you misinterpreted Deds post, I was simply attempting to respond ideologically."   (Eaglesway, Reply #77, December 17, 2012, 09:11:19 AM)

Are you serious?  You left a paper trail.  Seriously dude, denial is a lie and not an option.  Allow me to refresh your memory.

"You are misundrstanding what ded said. All black and white, eh? There are many levels to the mysteries of the scriptiures, you have to read what people say and try to understand what they are saying.....not jump off the cuff with assumptions." (Reply #52)  First you interpret what I say and instead of calling it different, you call it wrong (I didn't understand it correctly), then you take my thought processes to task (accusing me of seeing things only in black and white).  Thirdly you accuse me of not trying to understand the post and then jumping of a cuff (I have no idea what that means).

"I think Ded said He knew it before intellectually (meaning, IN THE MIND OF GOD) and experienced it in time with Abraham- that is what I got right off, I think you need to re-read it ALL slowly and thoroughly :o)" (Reply #59)  You don't think that condescending, using yourself as the paragon of understanding and giving remedial advise to one who saw it differently?


"You can't speak clearly enough for someone determined not to hear you." (Reply #75)  You actually placed this right after a direct quote from me.

I would advise you to re-read reply 73 by Lazarus short (if you read it at all) .   I got what he said right away, but the fact that you continued to keep this going after he posted his reply shows me you didn't.  In order for you to have the right understanding, you might want to re-read it slowly and thoroughly:  I know how you hate it when people don't do that.

VB,

I presume you understand the concept of Preterism Theology alias Replacement Theology. Eagleway is hardcore Replacement Theology, that is that the Christian Church has become the inheritor of the promises God has given to Israel. He makes no wall of separation between Body of Christ Saints & Israelite Saints. Until such a time as the Christian church knuckles under & recognizes this distinction, it will continue to twist & mangle plain & clearly written words of Holy Writ to suit  unfounded conclusions, the conclusions of Replacement Theology.

Christ's ministry was to Israelite saints, he clearly stated his ministry was to the House of Israel, not Gentiles, he spoke nothing of the Body of Christ. It is the Apostle Paul who introduced the Body of Christ to the world, thus began a whole new era of salvation to all, a revelation heretofore unheard of from the time of Moses.

Body of Christ saints have different promises than Israelite saints. Body of Christ saints must undergo change of their mortal bodies to immortal bodies to inherit their promises which exist beyond the environs of planet earth. Israelite saints are returned to their mortal bodies when they are resurrected, the prophetic text in Ezekiel 37 plainly attests to this. This of course is in sharp variance to the statements made by the apostle Paul that those who go up with Christ in the resurrection of the Body of Christ will be "changed", 1 Cor 15:51-54, a heretofore unknown secret has been revealed by Paul of a resurrection that involves "changed" bodies, this  is in sharp variance to what Ezekiel speaks of as a resurrection back to the same old flesh & blood for Israelite saints. Body of Christ saints have different promises than Israelite saints, I don't want to come back as flesh & blood & undergo this fleshly life stuff all over again.

QuoteActually Paul I am not hadcore replacement theology. Youe seem to be busy about reactionary response and categorizing people. Unfruitful as those categorizations are in the first place, you would seem to have all of the body of Christ broken into two camps.

Only 2 camps? More like about a 1002. There are Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witness, Messianic Jews, Assembly of God, Pentecostals, the unchurched, 7th Day Adventist, Southern Baptist.....how many more camps or denominations could we come up with, all with varying degrees of beliefs in Preterism vs. Dispensationalism & all have a representation within the Body of Christ.  I'm not picking on anyone here, only pointing that within these various groups are varying degrees of Replacement Theology.

QuoteI don't recognize those parameters as accurate ar all. The idea of coming back in a fleshly body, for instance, is something I know no one who believes that. The ressurection is immortal and spiritual;

So then what do we do about Ezekiel 37? It's a very real book with very real text..... and.....I know for a fact that a lot of Body of Christ believers do in fact believe Ezek 37 will be a very real event.

Quote from: sheila on December 18, 2012, 09:11:19 PM
...actually...when your resurrected the earth gives you back as it received you[by this i mean form/recognizable]

  this is so the living will know that the dead are resurrected..after that is testified you make take on any form you like

  gardner,stranger,angel..etc.[like God appeared as man when come down to inspect sodom and gomorrah...]

      the thing is..these new creatures in heaven can start lighting up like a lightbulb.  this light starts up

  in the forehead[yep there really is a mark on the forehead] and totally obliterates former facial features

  it is like a man walking around with a sun shining on His head.[p.s. Moses had to wear a veil for a while]

  big clue in..when it says God is light..that is not a misnomer

    I don't expect you all to take my word for it..but when you see for yourself...you'll know..and you will

Tell us some more about this.  :banana:

Re:EZ. 37, which of the three events are you speaking of.  My point with you Paul is to say that you are making a lot of emphatic statements in an environment that is geared for discussion about a subject matter that is important to a wider range of doctrinal perspectives than yours alone. Whether or not Ezekiel 37 is a real event or not is beside the point. The point is that on this forum the rule is that we express our opinions about such truths without getting hostile or belittling other peoples opinions. Preterists, Dispensationalists, Literalists, Fundamentalists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Evangelicals all are able to come here- hopefully- and hear about the blessed hope and glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, and discuss it, without being "categorized" or condescended to if they do not agree with your positions on other aspects of theology.

It is for that reason that the moderators on this forum may differ as to some of these questions but DO agree that the discussions will be kept respectful and in a conversational tone, characterized by opinions, NOT a strident and authoratative one, because evryone has reasons for what they believe- and just insisting one's view is "the right one" is not sufficient and it is not profitable.

Most of the people I know on this forum are big enough to take care of themselves. I am not worried about you picking on anyone- the point is to remained focused on the reason for the forum, which is DISCUSSING UR, not dissing other's doctrinal perspectives or getting argumentative about non-UR related topics.

Quote from: eaglesway on December 18, 2012, 11:52:41 PM
Re:EZ. 37, which of the three events are you speaking of.  My point with you Paul is to say that you are making a lot of emphatic statements in an environment that is geared for discussion about a subject matter that is important to a wider range of doctrinal perspectives than yours alone. Whether or not Ezekiel 37 is a real event or not is beside the point. The point is that on this forum the rule is that we express our opinions about such truths without getting hostile or belittling other peoples opinions. Preterists, Dispensationalists, Literalists, Fundamentalists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Evangelicals all are able to come here- hopefully- and hear about the blessed hope and glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, and discuss it, without being "categorized" or condescended to if they do not agree with your positions on other aspects of theology.

It is for that reason that the moderators on this forum may differ as to some of these questions but DO agree that the discussions will be kept respectful and in a conversational tone, characterized by opinions, NOT a strident and authoratative one, because evryone has reasons for what they believe- and just insisting one's view is "the right one" is not sufficient and it is not profitable.

Most of the people I know on this forum are big enough to take care of themselves. I am not worried about you picking on anyone- the point is to remained focused on the reason for the forum, which is DISCUSSING UR, not dissing other's doctrinal perspectives or getting argumentative about non-UR related topics.

So what is your understanding of the resurrection of Ezek 37? 

And all this time I always thought there were only 2 camps. Those that get to know God as Lord before they die and those that don't get to know him as Lord untillafter they die.

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 19, 2012, 01:56:56 AM
And all this time I always thought there were only 2 camps. Those that get to know God as Lord before they die and those that don't get to know him as Lord untillafter they die.

Depends on who you talk to. Talk only to two camps, then two camps. Talk to 100, then 100 camps.........

all I can say Molly..is it was one of the coolest things I ever saw. I can't wait to go myself................I asked why

  He allowed me to see this...and His reply was that a keeper of figs should be the first to eat of it's fruit..

      the resurrected man I was allowed to see and talk with was still learning to control it..when he

   saw me and walked over and was smiling..that was when the light started up[May the Lord God cause

  His face to shine upon thee' will never hold the same meaning for me!! it really shines!!]  He quickly

  'toned' it down..to where I wouldn't be distracted..and could converse face to face.

   Father must of known 40 years ago that He would do this..because of the dream/vision of going

up in a white tornado/whirlwind. [2 Kings2;11] with my friend. given me.[Ezekiel 1;4]] when I was 17.

    I can't wait to go home.......I get melancholy having to stay down here.....but I am useful to them

  down here.at present

Sheila, you mean someone who had died and was resurrected?

Or someone like Moses?

someone who died...I went up at the same time with them to the Holy city.  the wheat when gathered

by the reaping angels[cut off from ground/field/flesh] are gathered into the storehouse of Heaven.

   the angels bring them in as wave sheaves offering unto the House of the Lord. [ there were about 25-30

  coming in when I was up there[for about 10 secounds]

  everyone has their appointed work in the body up there.  some reap..some instruct..it's a very busy place

as soon as someone 'dies' down here..they are gathered into the Holy city..the gates never shut.

  they call it morning and evening sacrifices[of praise] sonset..sonrise[when we set on earth we rise in heaven]

that Jesus  through His gift to mankind offers...to Father...

   Jesus calls their name..they rise[reaped] and the clay shell is left behind on earth for us to bury..etc

    THERE IS NO DEATH  in REALITY

   I mean I always believed those scriptures about the spirit returning unto God..but I never KNEW IT.

   I always believed that we had a celestial body..but didn't Know it.

     

Quote from: ded2daworld on December 19, 2012, 01:56:56 AM
And all this time I always thought there were only 2 camps. Those that get to know God as Lord before they die and those that don't get to know him as Lord untillafter they die.

There are two groups of people in the world:  those who divide humanity into two groups, and those who don't.

But there are three groups of people, those that understand math and those that don't. :laughing7:
I'm glad everything isn't so intense here all the time. :gimmefive: