Concordant version

[Tom]

"Have a pattern of sound words, which you hear from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." (2 Timothy 1:13)

"13 The pattern of sound words is one of the most serious needs for the student of the Scriptures. If it was necessary for Timothy to cling to the particular Greek expressions used by the apostle, how much greater is the need for some definite pattern on which to model the words of aversion? How can the English reader hope to fulfill this exhortation when the translations which he uses publicly proclaim their avoidance of any uniformity or pattern in their production? The constant and consistent use of correct terms is one of the greatest possible aids in assimilating and teaching truth. The greatest hindrance is the inconsistent use of inexact terms which have their force nullified by use in incorrect contexts." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 324)

[Tom]

Here's something else a bible is good for.

http://www.zanylol.com/accident.html

[JulieTang84]

Father has revealed his Word in a variety different forms for a REASON! Each translation fills a need for Fathers plan. It is great to compare notes, but to laud one translation over another is forgetting why there are differing ones in the first place.

And that reason is?


Perhaps I should ask you WhiteWings why this would be, as you seem quite verbose with the Scriptures, but you did ask first......

Never forget that Father knew before creation that all "this" confusion regarding His Word, the Bible would take place. With Spiritual maturity, one realizes that nothing matters but Love. What matters more? The fact that some read and do not comprehend and I scoff, or that I love them without condition. Can you WW show me a Bible in which Fathers saving grace cannot be found, if one has eyes to see?

The simple truth is that there is NOT a single Bible that the truth cannot be found if one has been "enabled" to see.

How many would be enabled without there being any Bible?
May sound odd, but I think God's opinion is that a Bible is beneficial and that's why He had it written. Study theyself approved.


Just as many as now. Perhaps even more?


Rom 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


The key here is living and seeing, enjoy and appreaciting all of Fathers Creation and seeing Him in all of it, thus understanding his very nature.  :HeartThrob:

All this talk about the correct words is like describing a forest by focusing on just a plant or two.

What's even worse than that is trying to minimize the importance of the written Word because THAT is a slippery slope that leads to fantasy doctrines for sure. Personally I classify calling the Bible a plant or two in the forest as (bordering) slander.


I think you missed that I was referring to the "Bible" as a vast, beautiful and grand forrest and the plant or two as mere words. No problem.  :HeartThrob:

It is not the Tools alone that make a great tradesman, for a great tradesman relies mostly on skill and discernment. The tools just make his/her life easier because the "skill" to use them correctly is present.

How did that tradesman learn his trade?


By being mentored or serving as a trainee, being taught by "doing." Learning by doing is always a beneficial way to fully grasp any trade.

The simple truth is that no matter what a blind man holds in his hands, the words mean nothing because he cannot see them. I can't help but feel that it would be most beneficial discussing why Father caused so much confusion with HIS HOLY WORD. The answer is because of LOVE, for if we can see differences of understanding through LOVE, then surely the differences simply evaporate.

All traditions of the Pharisees were based on instructions God gave. Their interpretation was wrong but they tried. Jesus confronted them head-on with their junk teachings. Jesus sure was able to "see differences trough love" but he didn't hug the Pharisees and overlook their wrong interpretations "in love".


Of course they tried: Don't we all. Jesus confronted "them" head-on, not because they were acting in LOVE, but that they were self-righteous and indignant concerning their "knowledge." Of course Jesus could see their short comings, just as he can just as easily see yours, mine and everyone else's. You are right, Jesus did not hug them, but he did "DIE" for them, just as he did for us. No greater love can be displayed than to die for those whom despise you, that they may live. He Loved them! Can we do the same? :HeartThrob:


Can such LOVE be found by reading Fathers word? Perhaps. Can it be found by looking at the heavens on a cloudless night sky? Perhaps also. But isn't LOVE and truth found by Father opening eyes and hearts through Spirit? I think so, as He alone is the "enabler. " It all comes down to LOVE, nothing more and nothing less. I say to you, that any person who can LOVE unconditionally, having never seen the Scriptures has a greater portion of truth than those that Love with conditions and study diligently.

Mat 7: 80-20
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Love Julie :HeartThrob: 

[Tom]

Father has revealed his Word in a variety different forms for a REASON! Each translation fills a need for Fathers plan. It is great to compare notes, but to laud one translation over another is forgetting why there are differing ones in the first place.

And that reason is?


Perhaps I should ask you WhiteWings why this would be, as you seem quite verbose with the Scriptures, but you did ask first......

Never forget that Father knew before creation that all "this" confusion regarding His Word, the Bible would take place. With Spiritual maturity, one realizes that nothing matters but Love. What matters more? The fact that some read and do not comprehend and I scoff, or that I love them without condition. Can you WW show me a Bible in which Fathers saving grace cannot be found, if one has eyes to see?

The simple truth is that there is NOT a single Bible that the truth cannot be found if one has been "enabled" to see.

How many would be enabled without there being any Bible?
May sound odd, but I think God's opinion is that a Bible is beneficial and that's why He had it written. Study theyself approved.


Just as many as now. Perhaps even more?


Rom 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


The key here is living and seeing, enjoy and appreaciting all of Fathers Creation and seeing Him in all of it, thus understanding his very nature.  :HeartThrob:

All this talk about the correct words is like describing a forest by focusing on just a plant or two.

What's even worse than that is trying to minimize the importance of the written Word because THAT is a slippery slope that leads to fantasy doctrines for sure. Personally I classify calling the Bible a plant or two in the forest as (bordering) slander.


I think you missed that I was referring to the "Bible" as a vast, beautiful and grand forrest and the plant or two as mere words. No problem.  :HeartThrob:

It is not the Tools alone that make a great tradesman, for a great tradesman relies mostly on skill and discernment. The tools just make his/her life easier because the "skill" to use them correctly is present.

How did that tradesman learn his trade?


By being mentored or serving as a trainee, being taught by "doing." Learning by doing is always a beneficial way to fully grasp any trade.

The simple truth is that no matter what a blind man holds in his hands, the words mean nothing because he cannot see them. I can't help but feel that it would be most beneficial discussing why Father caused so much confusion with HIS HOLY WORD. The answer is because of LOVE, for if we can see differences of understanding through LOVE, then surely the differences simply evaporate.

All traditions of the Pharisees were based on instructions God gave. Their interpretation was wrong but they tried. Jesus confronted them head-on with their junk teachings. Jesus sure was able to "see differences trough love" but he didn't hug the Pharisees and overlook their wrong interpretations "in love".


Of course they tried: Don't we all. Jesus confronted "them" head-on, not because they were acting in LOVE, but that they were self-righteous and indignant concerning their "knowledge." Of course Jesus could see their short comings, just as he can just as easily see yours, mine and everyone else's. You are right, Jesus did not hug them, but he did "DIE" for them, just as he did for us. No greater love can be displayed than to die for those whom despise you, that they may live. He Loved them! Can we do the same? :HeartThrob:


Can such LOVE be found by reading Fathers word? Perhaps. Can it be found by looking at the heavens on a cloudless night sky? Perhaps also. But isn't LOVE and truth found by Father opening eyes and hearts through Spirit? I think so, as He alone is the "enabler. " It all comes down to LOVE, nothing more and nothing less. I say to you, that any person who can LOVE unconditionally, having never seen the Scriptures has a greater portion of truth than those that Love with conditions and study diligently.

Mat 7: 80-20
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Love Julie :HeartThrob: 

I like this part the best..."I say to you, that any person who can LOVE unconditionally, having never seen the Scriptures has a greater portion of truth than those that Love with conditions and study diligently."

[WhiteWings]

Julie, I've read your answer and decided not to reply besides this short reply. Either you don't understand the point I try to make (I think you do) or you hold a view that that's impossible for me to agree on. Frankly speaking it gets under my skin in a bad way.

Let me say this  the forest including the 2 plants are the whole truth. Who thinks there is truth outside/beside the forest is rejecting the forest.

:2c:

[JulieTang84]

Julie, I've read your answer and decided not to reply besides this short reply. Either you don't understand the point I try to make (I think you do) or you hold a view that that's impossible for me to agree on. Frankly speaking it gets under my skin in a bad way.

Let me say this  the forest including the 2 plants are the whole truth. Who thinks there is truth outside/beside the forest is rejecting the forest.

:2c:

WhiteWings I truly mean you no disrespect. Honestly, I do not understand the point you were making, unless it is ONLY by studying and questioning every word the Holy Scriptures contain. I am not saying that it is and I hopefully did not imply that it was. If so, then shame on me.


Speaking from my experience only, the Love and Truth that Father has given me these last couple of years can only be "validated" through His Holy Word and likewise His Creation.


I do NOT believe his Truth or Love can be "found," rather that it must be GIVEN by Father alone, very much in the same way a child learns from his/her parents.


In NO WAY am I rejecting Fathers HOLY Word, perhaps you did not mean that. Because if that were true, I would not Hold that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father allows it. It's all down to Father  and nothing else. Knowing this is enough for me as I need not worry about anything.


It does not matter that we cannot find agreement, just that we have love and peace between us.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

I like this part the best..."I say to you, that any person who can LOVE unconditionally, having never seen the Scriptures has a greater portion of truth than those that Love with conditions and study diligently."

Absolutely!  They show that they have the law written on their hearts.

Romans 2:12-16 - ¹² For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. ¹³ For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. ¹⁴ For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. ¹⁵ They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them ¹⁶ on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:14 - For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

[jabcat]

An unbeliever's works and what their "love" is, and what the "law unto themselves" means, IMO, bears a lot of study, context, rightly dividing, and Spirit revelation.  I'm not saying I've done it or have it.  I need to "work" on that.  :)

"Love without the scripture" vs. "having the scripture, studying it, and having conditions", IMO, is just a narrow cut of things, and doesn't really comprehensively take into account the various pertinent issues.  To me, the issue is, if you have the scriptures (or any level of true knowledge of God, HOWEVER HE'S CHOSEN TO REVEAL IT,  i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), we're still to love of course, but also rightly divide the Word of Truth and handle whatever's been given to us carefully.   Because to whom much is given, much is required.  OTOH, if someone has NO saving knowledge of God (i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), they may have some form of love/kindness, etc., but does that go anywhere toward their spiritual new birth, other than that their make-up/condition of their heart is perhaps softer and more receptive to the ONLY thing that EVERYONE must do - either in this age or the next?  And that's to bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father (being given faith to believe on Him as Savior). 

I've got some more understanding to do, because when talking about works, Paul said our righteousness is as filthy rags.   :Chinscratch:

[Tom]

An unbeliever's works and what their "love" is, and what the "law unto themselves" means, IMO, bears a lot of study, context, rightly dividing, and Spirit revelation.  I'm not saying I've done it or have it.  I need to "work" on that.  :)

"Love without the scripture" vs. "having the scripture, studying it, and having conditions", IMO, is just a narrow cut of things, and doesn't really comprehensively take into account the various pertinent issues.  To me, the issue is, if you have the scriptures (or any level of true knowledge of God, HOWEVER HE'S CHOSEN TO REVEAL IT,  i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), we're still to love of course, but also rightly divide the Word of Truth and handle whatever's been given to us carefully.   Because to whom much is given, much is required.  OTOH, if someone has NO saving knowledge of God (i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), they may have some form of love/kindness, etc., but I don't believe that goes anywhere toward their spiritual new birth, unless it's that their make-up/condition of their heart is perhaps softer and more receptive to the ONLY thing that EVERYONE must do - either in this age or the next.  And that's to bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  IMO, anything else is loss.

I think we all "need to "work" on that" continuously, brother. I agree that "correctly cutting the word of truth" and a "pattern of sound words" is important so that we can correctly share the truth with those who don't know it. I think it's our responsibility to do that, and we need to know the truth to do it. That's why I study the word of God daily. I think we receive the spirit of God through the word of God, and that increases our love as well as our knowledge and wisdom. I also believe we need to study the word of God to know the correct doctrine as opposed to being deceived by the philosophy of man that may seem right but is a trap of the Adversary. Worldly wisdom is not the same thing as true wisdom that comes from God through the word of God.

[jabcat]

An unbeliever's works and what their "love" is, and what the "law unto themselves" means, IMO, bears a lot of study, context, rightly dividing, and Spirit revelation.  I'm not saying I've done it or have it.  I need to "work" on that.  :)

"Love without the scripture" vs. "having the scripture, studying it, and having conditions", IMO, is just a narrow cut of things, and doesn't really comprehensively take into account the various pertinent issues.  To me, the issue is, if you have the scriptures (or any level of true knowledge of God, HOWEVER HE'S CHOSEN TO REVEAL IT,  i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), we're still to love of course, but also rightly divide the Word of Truth and handle whatever's been given to us carefully.   Because to whom much is given, much is required.  OTOH, if someone has NO saving knowledge of God (i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), they may have some form of love/kindness, etc., but I don't believe that goes anywhere toward their spiritual new birth, unless it's that their make-up/condition of their heart is perhaps softer and more receptive to the ONLY thing that EVERYONE must do - either in this age or the next.  And that's to bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  IMO, anything else is loss.

I think we all "need to "work" on that," brother. I agree that "correctly cutting the word of truth" and a "pattern of sound words" is important so that we can correctly share the truth with those who don't know it. I think it's our responsibility to do that, and we need to know the truth to do it. That's why I study the word of God daily. I think we receive the spirit of God through the word of God, and that increases our love as well as our knowledge and wisdom. I also believe we need to study the word of God to know the correct doctrine as opposed to being deceived by the philosophy of man that may seem right but is a trap of the Adversary. Worldly wisdom is not the same thing as true wisdom that comes from God through the word of God.

Amen.  I'm interested in what various people think, but everyone thinks something.  Explain what's the understanding from the scriptures, having closely examined and explored any known relevant sides of it (CONTEXT) then let me take it before the Lord for understanding, confirmation, rejection, etc.  Test all things.  Including anything I say.   :mblush:  Amen.

[jabcat]

I've been looking at the whole "law unto themselves" idea.  I think it's very important, but often misunderstood -and I'm probably one of them.  I realize what it says, but what I really wonder is, with all other connected scriptures taken into account, what it really means.

If I dig too much here I'll derail this thread.  But there are sure a variety of views on it, from "if a pagan treats people nice, or does a kind deed, he's following his own conscience, so God's really OK with him/will reward him" [law and works thread], to "that scripture passage is really showing people their guilt before God no matter the amount of truth they have or not, so it doesn't change that all have to come through Christ [kneel and confess] and be forgiven", among 9,374 other views.  OK, I won't say more, but if anyone would like to start a thread on it, that might be good - or I might later.  In the meantime, I'm pondering... :Chinscratch:

[WhiteWings]

I just took another look at Mitchell's New Testament for your sake, and the first thing I notice is the use of "age" in the place of "eon" similar to Young's Literal Translation. The Greek "aion" literally means "eon" which is more accurate than "age." That may seem insignificant to some, but, as you point out, sometimes a small change can make a big difference.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

They don't sound really convinced of their own position, but I understand it.
One bit of logic I don't agree with or find very weak at best

"The crowning proof that the idea of endlessness is foreign to olam is afforded by the phrase 'for ever and ever.' The English reader may suppose the second 'ever' to be the same word as the first. But it is not. The Hebrew is va-ed. As the Septuagint translates it, 'and still,' and as the translators have so rendered it in scores of places, we will translate it 'beyond' or 'further.' Now, if olam meant endlessness as some say it does, why reinforce it by adding 'beyond'?

It seems to very closely related by the argument of others: "Ever and ever doesn't make sense because there is only one eternity."
Stricktly speaking that's a simple fact; but not how language works. In my first language we have a quite common expression "for always and ever".
Jesus often said "Verily, verily" (John 3:3)
At other times He just used the word once (Matt 5:18)
Verily has the meaning of sure, true, truth, fact etc.
Does that mean Jesus' words were not always equally truthful? Of course not.
That's why I find "for ever and beyond" weak proof.

:2c:

[Tom]

I just took another look at Mitchell's New Testament for your sake, and the first thing I notice is the use of "age" in the place of "eon" similar to Young's Literal Translation. The Greek "aion" literally means "eon" which is more accurate than "age." That may seem insignificant to some, but, as you point out, sometimes a small change can make a big difference.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

They don't sound really convinced of their own position, but I understand it.
One bit of logic I don't agree with or find very weak at best

"The crowning proof that the idea of endlessness is foreign to olam is afforded by the phrase 'for ever and ever.' The English reader may suppose the second 'ever' to be the same word as the first. But it is not. The Hebrew is va-ed. As the Septuagint translates it, 'and still,' and as the translators have so rendered it in scores of places, we will translate it 'beyond' or 'further.' Now, if olam meant endlessness as some say it does, why reinforce it by adding 'beyond'?

It seems to very closely related by the argument of others: "Ever and ever doesn't make sense because there is only one eternity."
Stricktly speaking that's a simple fact; but not how language works. In my first language we have a quite common expression "for always and ever".
Jesus often said "Verily, verily" (John 3:3)
At other times He just used the word once (Matt 5:18)
Verily has the meaning of sure, true, truth, fact etc.
Does that mean Jesus' words were not always equally truthful? Of course not.
That's why I find "for ever and beyond" weak proof.

:2c:

The fact is that the Greek "aion" literally means "eon" which is a period of time not infinite time. The following verse indicates that there is more than one eon and they have consummations. So any period of time with a consummation does not go on "forever" or "forever and ever." That is simply intentional mistranslation of the word of God to propagate the lies of immortality of the soul and torture forever in fire.

"Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)

[jbertonbounds]

An unbeliever's works and what their "love" is, and what the "law unto themselves" means, IMO, bears a lot of study, context, rightly dividing, and Spirit revelation.  I'm not saying I've done it or have it.  I need to "work" on that.  :)

"Love without the scripture" vs. "having the scripture, studying it, and having conditions", IMO, is just a narrow cut of things, and doesn't really comprehensively take into account the various pertinent issues.  To me, the issue is, if you have the scriptures (or any level of true knowledge of God, HOWEVER HE'S CHOSEN TO REVEAL IT,  i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), we're still to love of course, but also rightly divide the Word of Truth and handle whatever's been given to us carefully.   Because to whom much is given, much is required.  OTOH, if someone has NO saving knowledge of God (i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), they may have some form of love/kindness, etc., but does that go anywhere toward their spiritual new birth, other than that their make-up/condition of their heart is perhaps softer and more receptive to the ONLY thing that EVERYONE must do - either in this age or the next?  And that's to bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father (being given faith to believe on Him as Savior). 

I've got some more understanding to do, because when talking about works, Paul said our righteousness is as filthy rags.   :Chinscratch:

Don't misunderstand what I was saying.  Certainly Jesus is the only way to life/salvation.  I understood Tom to say that someone who loves unconditionally but has no knowledge of scripture is better off (in a way) than someone who knows scripture but does not have that quality of love.  I didn't take that to mean that a loving person's love saves them regardless of their knowledge of the scriptures, but only that they are better off in a manner of speaking.  I have often said myself that a kind person who doesn't believe in God is better off than a mean "Christian" - and believe me, they're out their.  The "Christian" who does not love has no excuse for it.  I think they will be judged much more harshly than the sweet, loving old lady down the street who did good deeds but never went to church.  Again, not saying that her works earned salvation.  Consider the following verses:

Heb 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallenfn away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Heb 6:8 - But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

It is clear from these verses that one who has the truth in their hands, yet does not follow in it is condemned for it.

Heb 6.10 - God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

This verse shows that our God will be fair. 

My point is that, YES, faith in Jesus is the only way to eonian life.  Those who never heard of the scriptures or of Jesus will be raised in the 2nd resurrection and will still have to be purified in the lake of fire, but certainly not to the degree of those who were wicked in their lifestyles.  I believe that they will be rewarded for their good works.  That's my opinion.

Good advice you gave - continue studying, praying for understanding and wisdom, and sharing with all humility and loving kindness, knowing we don't know all.  Stay humble.

[jabcat]

Thanks j for the good input.  It was helpful.  I've never really "worried' much about this particular issue before until the past couple years or so.  Now I'm finding it, at least some aspects of it, a bit perplexing.  And I guess I see people all over the place with it, some of it seeming worth considering/reconsidering, while some of it seems pretty much "out there" and just doesn't ring true to me.  So it's sort of gotten my attention lately.  Thanks again.

[jabcat]

j, what do you think about this article?  The comments at the end are also interesting IMO...hint - we're not the only ones wondering about it.  :o

http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/articles/filthy-rags/filthy-rags.php

a couple of comments following the article;

Comment 1  "I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. It has been enlightening from both perspectives. I am most afraid however of what I see in many 'church' people. Many are quite proud [regarding works] ...How one can believe they have salvation without the blood of Christ atoning for their imperfections is a slowly creeping error that should be uncovered."

---------

Comment 2  "I think the deception of Satan is very subtle, as his servants are disguised as "servants of righteousness." If we truly allow Christ to be the End of the law for righteousness, then we are able to understand and submit to HIS righteousness. Truthfully speaking, no one deserves to enter the kingdom of God because no one is good, no one is righteous, and all sin. Apart from Him we can do nothing, and we are all still in our sins. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so we must be born from above - by the Spirit (in the higher, spiritual realm of consciousness- understanding by the Spirit what God has FREELY given us). It is only by Grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Righteous One, that we enter in...not by works. We enter in through His blood and HIS righteousness...the gates are HIS righteousness...He IS the gate. We don't need to focus on our own good works, but on the finished work of Christ. Whenever we can get that foundation laid right and settle it in our minds, then we are truly a new creation - made new in the spirit of our minds, created to be like God in True righteousness and holiness. Then we are all on an equal playing field, with HIS righteousness as the measuring stick...and then there will be no more pride over one another. This is what I think the church has misunderstood. But it's the most important thing, because this IS the gospel. "The life I live in the flesh, I live BY FAITH in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
--------

This discussion fits in the Works/Law thread too - they're kind of overlapping.  But I really think that's how scriptural/spiritual discussion are anyway - one thing connected to another.  Anyway, blessings.

[WhiteWings]

Don't misunderstand what I was saying.  Certainly Jesus is the only way to life/salvation.  I understood Tom to say that someone who loves unconditionally but has no knowledge of scripture is better off (in a way) than someone who knows scripture but does not have that quality of love.

I don't know how far reaching it is but this verse certainly aligns with your view:

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I didn't take that to mean that a loving person's love saves them regardless of their knowledge of the scriptures, but only that they are better off in a manner of speaking.

Being saved = Belief + works + grace.
Everyone will have a different level of belief and works. I think the solution is simple. The Father just works extra on the parts that need extra work.
Who is closed to what Father requires is best off. But when all is said and done neither lack of faith or works has been overlooked.


 

I have often said myself that a kind person who doesn't believe in God is better off than a mean "Christian" - and believe me, they're out their.

Part of being a Christian is:
Matt 22:36-40 (ACV)
36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 And Jesus said to him, Thou shall love Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law, and the prophets.

So love is part of being a Christian. So again I repeat it's a package deal. Not every part of the package requires to be a Christian. But that does not mean its strictly required to become one in some moment in time.

I think that package deal is what always should be mentioned. I sense large part of this debate is that people assume the discussion partner wants minimize or even completely do away with a certain 'ingredient'. It's AND not or.

[jbertonbounds]

Don't misunderstand what I was saying.  Certainly Jesus is the only way to life/salvation.  I understood Tom to say that someone who loves unconditionally but has no knowledge of scripture is better off (in a way) than someone who knows scripture but does not have that quality of love.

I don't know how far reaching it is but this verse certainly aligns with your view:

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I didn't take that to mean that a loving person's love saves them regardless of their knowledge of the scriptures, but only that they are better off in a manner of speaking.

Being saved = Belief + works + grace.
Everyone will have a different level of belief and works. I think the solution is simple. The Father just works extra on the parts that need extra work.
Who is closed to what Father requires is best off. But when all is said and done neither lack of faith or works has been overlooked.


 

I have often said myself that a kind person who doesn't believe in God is better off than a mean "Christian" - and believe me, they're out their.

Part of being a Christian is:
Matt 22:36-40 (ACV)
36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 And Jesus said to him, Thou shall love Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law, and the prophets.

So love is part of being a Christian. So again I repeat it's a package deal. Not every part of the package requires to be a Christian. But that does not mean its strictly required to become one in some moment in time.

I think that package deal is what always should be mentioned. I sense large part of this debate is that people assume the discussion partner wants minimize or even completely do away with a certain 'ingredient'. It's AND not or.

:thumbsup:

[jbertonbounds]

j, what do you think about this article?  The comments at the end are also interesting IMO...hint - we're not the only ones wondering about it.  :o

http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/articles/filthy-rags/filthy-rags.php

a couple of comments following the article;

Comment 1  "I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. It has been enlightening from both perspectives. I am most afraid however of what I see in many 'church' people. Many are quite proud [regarding works] ...How one can believe they have salvation without the blood of Christ atoning for their imperfections is a slowly creeping error that should be uncovered."

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Comment 2  "I think the deception of Satan is very subtle, as his servants are disguised as "servants of righteousness." If we truly allow Christ to be the End of the law for righteousness, then we are able to understand and submit to HIS righteousness. Truthfully speaking, no one deserves to enter the kingdom of God because no one is good, no one is righteous, and all sin. Apart from Him we can do nothing, and we are all still in our sins. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so we must be born from above - by the Spirit (in the higher, spiritual realm of consciousness- understanding by the Spirit what God has FREELY given us). It is only by Grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Righteous One, that we enter in...not by works. We enter in through His blood and HIS righteousness...the gates are HIS righteousness...He IS the gate. We don't need to focus on our own good works, but on the finished work of Christ. Whenever we can get that foundation laid right and settle it in our minds, then we are truly a new creation - made new in the spirit of our minds, created to be like God in True righteousness and holiness. Then we are all on an equal playing field, with HIS righteousness as the measuring stick...and then there will be no more pride over one another. This is what I think the church has misunderstood. But it's the most important thing, because this IS the gospel. "The life I live in the flesh, I live BY FAITH in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
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This discussion fits in the Works/Law thread too - they're kind of overlapping.  But I really think that's how scriptural/spiritual discussion are anyway - one thing connected to another.  Anyway, blessings.

Fascinating topic and article.  I never thought of it like that.  I was indoctrinated by the worldly "church" the same way he described in the article - that nothing we do is anything but filthy rags in his sight.  But I can clearly see his point and I agree.  The verse was about the unrighteousness of Israel at that time.  It does not apply to all people at all times.  Our good works are righteous if they are done with a pure heart.  He certainly seemed to assert that good works matter even when a person is not a Christian, as in the case of Cornelius.  This would make a good thread sometime - but it will get very interesting, I'm sure! :laughing7: :thumbsup: