Tentmaker Forum

I have some questions about the Concordant version of the scriptures:
(I never ask questions about a product of the people who are selling it!)

(1) How many of you out there are using it?

(2) How do you like it?

(3) What do you think of it's accuracy?

(4) Have they completed the translations of both the old and new testaments?

(5) Is it your favorite bible?

Thanks for your insights!
JBerton

1] Don't know  :laughing7:
2] It's good but flawed as each and every translation.
3] Good but not complete.
4] Yes. Available for free in at least 4 formats.
5] Several. For the NT I would really advise to take a look at the Jonathan Mitchell translation.

Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 18, 2013, 07:40:40 PM
I have some questions about the Concordant version of the scriptures:
(I never ask questions about a product of the people who are selling it!)

(1) How many of you out there are using it?

(2) How do you like it?

(3) What do you think of it's accuracy?

(4) Have they completed the translations of both the old and new testaments?

(5) Is it your favorite bible?

Thanks for your insights!
JBerton

I read the King James for many years and tried several other versions, but I prefer the Concordant Version because it translates the meaning of words consistently according to the concordance with a very few exceptions for the sake of idiom. The translation of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures has been completed, but there have been some updated editions over the years of the Concordant Literal New Testament. A new one isn't planned any time soon the last I heard. Also the last I heard the Concordant Version Old Testament is being edited for an updated version, but the following link has the latest edition which is different that what you'll find in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer or e-Sword.

http://concordant.org/online/index.html

I also have an audio/video version of the Concordant Version of Paul's evangel on YouTube for those who are blind, deaf, illiterate, or dyslexic. The video contains the actual pages of the Concordant Literal New Testament book, and the audio is text to speech technology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcKlvvylmMg&list=PLjekhPv7k1dI04E8m11ojjyDdGFsAZ8kh

I also have the audio and video files available for download in a Dropbox shared folder for anyone who is interested. The download videos are easier on the eyes than the ones on YouTube. The audio files are MP3 format that can be converted to CD format for your car with Windows Media Player. There is a version of the MP3 files here. http://concordant.org/recorded/index.html But that isn't the last edition which has some of the pronunciation perfected. Text to speech technology is not an exact science when it comes to pronunciation. It took some time, energy, and improvisation to produce the last edition. I don't plan on doing any more. The President of the Concordant Publishing Concern retired before I finished the last edition. So not much is getting updated on the website these days. He's looking for someone to help with proofreading, but I can't do that anymore because I'm busy helping a totally handicapped sister and 89 year old dad with Alzheimer's. If you want to share the Dropbox folder with the download files, PM me an email address, and I'll send you an invitation. Meanwhile the text of the latest versions of both the Concordant Version Old and New Testaments are available for free download on the website as PDF files.

Thanks jbb for asking the "right" questions.  Thanks WW--I never even heard of the Jonathan Mitchell translation so I really, really appreciate your answer to "favorite translation?" and have already checked out your favorite ... the little that I did read encouraged me to place a shortcut on my desktop for using in my ongoing studies.

Tom, I appreciate your great enthusiasm for the Concordant... I have printed a couple of their articles for use in my ongoing studies.

I don't have any favorites...  I'm a strong adherent of "thinking outside the box" ... keeps me "free" to read many different versions, commentaries, etc.  One of my friends deeply concerned about my reading so many different versions, etc., asked me "Doesn't all that reading just confuse you more?"  and I answered "No, I learned that they can't all be right; but they can all be wrong; however, they all have some truth (s) and those I call "in parts" and add those parts to my ongoing studies.

Thanks all... I've learned and filed many things that each member has shared...

Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 18, 2013, 08:56:00 PM
WW--I never even heard of the Jonathan Mitchell translation

http://www.greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/

if you like it, i have a version with color which makes it easier to read.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 18, 2013, 08:56:00 PM
WW--I never even heard of the Jonathan Mitchell translation

http://www.greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/

if you like it, i have a version with color which makes it easier to read.

Thanks ...  when I was searching for online Jonathan Mitchell translation, greater-Emmanuel was on the list and I immediately went to their website... I'm kind of a black/white person so I'll stick with the version ... WW I really do appreciate the valuable information you bring to this forum and now that my printer has been "renewed", I've printed your post on The Law; Proper Names of Yahweh; and the one on the meaning of Deuteronomy.

Here is where Faith and Trust is more important than understanding. I am not going to denounce any Bible for the sake of another. I personally use a NIV study Bible that I find most useful. Simply because the comments tend to often times correct the obvious errors in transliteration.


Getting back to Faith and Trust.


Faith: Is knowing that Father's Spirit will provide the wisdom and the words when needed.
Trust: Is knowing that all understanding comes from Father.


If this is true (How can it not be) then surely His Word in all of its many forms (King James, Concordant, NIV, Young's, Rotham's, etc ) would all teach the same truth. (How could they not)


Quite honestly, the truth can be found in all Scripture if one has been given the eyes to see. This is of MOST importance. It is not up to us to lean on our own understanding (Pro 3:5) Nor is it up to us to clear our eyes in order to see what Father has hidden from us.


So what is left? A forum with a lot of members with vastly different stories to tell and a "good" grasp  of whatever "truth" has been given them. I make this point, because if any are here trying to learn a truth different than the one given, then it's likely a good time to find a quiet place to know Father.


So we must always be very conscious of the fact that if one of us as a different version of the truth than we, then it is up to us to question our understanding before we even dare question that of another. Even then, Love is the baseline and if both beliefs (word renderings, global floods, etc) do not deviate from LOVE then what does it matter? It matters only if we choose to push a belief onto another who simply cannot see it.


Seems this is much the same way we should treat the Hell Fire believers. They simply cannot see the truth and no amount of reasoning will ever convince them otherwise. If anything will, it will be Love, because Jesus told us the 2nd Commandment is to love others with as much sincerity as we love ourselves.


The truth has four letters. LOVE. Father is LOVE and we MUST Love always


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

There is no perfect translation because something is always lost in translation. Unfortunately most of us here probably don't understand Hebrew or Greek. So we have to trust the translation of others. The only reason I prefer the Concordant Version is because the method of translation according to the concordance minimizes the interpretation of those who compiled it more than any other version I know. I want to know what the ancient manuscripts say, not what somebody thinks about what they say. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I believe, if we keep seeking the truth, it will be revealed to us because I believe it is God's will that we know the truth.

"you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free." (John 8:32)

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

I thought of two more questions:

(1) Does the Concordant version contain the same ole mistranslation ("hell") of the words hades, sheol, Gehenna, and Tartarus?  In other words, does it contain the word "hell?"

(2) Does the Concordant version contain the same ole mistranslation ("eternal") instead of the more correct "age-abiding," "for an age," or "age-lasting?"

Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 09:50:04 PM
The only reason I prefer the Concordant Version is because the method of translation according to the concordance minimizes the interpretation of those who compiled it more than any other version I know. I want to know what the ancient manuscripts say, not what somebody thinks about what they say.

The problem is that the manuscripts not always agree. Sometimes various renderings are possible. Not talking about doctrine but linguistics. That's no sneer at the translators. If a word has 2 or more meaning in Greek or Hebrew it's very often impossible to find a word in English which has the exact same meanings.

In that respect the Mitchell translation is great. It lists many renderings and let the reader make the choice.
But Mitchels is no readers Bible. It's more like  a  puzzle study Bible. No issue for me because I rarely read the Bible. I usually hop through the Bible following a red thread for a certain study. I think that's also important for the question what the best Bible is. A studier has want accuracy even if it mean garbled English. Others want smooth flowing poetry style.

@jbert below a  few concordant verse so you get a fair impression.

41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."
42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
44 Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'"
45 Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'"
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

---

22 Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire.
23 If, then, you should be offering your approach present on the altar, and there you should be reminded that your brother has anything against you,
24 leave your approach present there, in front of the altar, and go away. First be placated toward your brother, and then, coming, be offering your approach present.
25 You be humoring your plaintiff quickly while you are with him on the way, lest at some time the plaintiff may be giving you up to the judge, and the judge to the deputy, and you should be cast into jail.
26 Verily I am saying to you, By no means may you be coming out thence till you should be paying the last quadrans.
27 "You hear that it was declared, 'You shall not be committing adultery.
28 Yet I am saying to you that every man looking at a woman to lust for her already commits adultery with her in his heart.
29 Now, if your right eye is snaring you, wrench it out and cast it from you, for it is expedient for you that one of your members should perish and not your whole body be cast into Gehenna.
30 And if your right hand is snaring you, strike it off and cast it from you, for it is expedient for you that one of your members should perish and not your whole body pass away into Gehenna."

---

But why ask. It's free. Read a  chapter and you know  :declare:


If you need help getting a copy PM me. (all 100% legal)
I have 2 versions for Bible software. A regular .pdf. And a .pdf especially geared toward mobile devices. (narrow column and big font)
All of it are 'old' versions according to Tom. But still far better that no CLV at all I would say.

Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 18, 2013, 10:31:35 PM
I thought of two more questions:

(1) Does the Concordant version contain the same ole mistranslation ("hell") of the words hades, sheol, Gehenna, and Tartarus?  In other words, does it contain the word "hell?"

(2) Does the Concordant version contain the same ole mistranslation ("eternal") instead of the more correct "age-abiding," "for an age," or "age-lasting?"

The Concordant Version does not contain the mistranslations "hell" or "eternal." "Sheol," "Gehenna," and "Tartarus" are translated correctly, and "hell" from the Greek "hades," literally meaning "unperceived" or "unseen" is translated as "unseen." The Greek "aionion" mistranslated as "eternal" is translated "eonian" because it is simply the adjective of the Greek "aion," literally meaning "eon," which is a period of time not infinite time. I used to read Young's Literal Translation because it uses "age" and "age-during," but "eon" and "eonian" are actually more accurate. I became aware of other problems with Young's version too.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 10:33:42 PM

Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 09:50:04 PM
The only reason I prefer the Concordant Version is because the method of translation according to the concordance minimizes the interpretation of those who compiled it more than any other version I know. I want to know what the ancient manuscripts say, not what somebody thinks about what they say.

The problem is that the manuscripts not always agree. Sometimes various renderings are possible. Not talking about doctrine but linguistics. That's no sneer at the translators. If a word has 2 or more meaning in Greek or Hebrew it's very often impossible to find a word in English which has the exact same meanings.

In that respect the Mitchell translation is great. It lists many renderings and let the reader make the choice.
But Mitchels is no readers Bible. It's more like  a  puzzle study Bible. No issue for me because I rarely read the Bible. I usually hop through the Bible following a red thread for a certain study. I think that's also important for the question what the best Bible is. A studier has want accuracy even if it mean garbled English. Others want smooth flowing poetry style.

The ancient manuscripts have errors because they were copied by humans, but it is my understanding that nothing varies regarding doctrine. The Concordant folks compared a lot of manuscripts during their work. I'm surprised to see that you "rarely read the Bible" considering your interest in Hebrew culture and history. I study the word of God every morning for inspiration. It is how I receive the fruit of the spirit to edify me daily. It is through the word of God that we receive the spirit of God. Christ is "the word of God." We may not have been able to know Christ in the flesh like those who walked with him, but God has blessed us with the written word of God to inspire us and guide us with the light of his wisdom in this world of darkness giving us peace in the midst of the insanity of the world. The word of God is our daily bread, "the bread of life." I eat a healthy diet, but I would rather go without breakfast in the morning than my daily bread. I encourage you to take some time to read the word of God, brother. It will do you good.

"In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word." (John 1:1)

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

"He is clothed in a cloak dipped in blood, and His name is called "The Word of God." (Revelation 19:13)

"Now the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22,23)

Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 11:26:02 PM
I'm surprised to see that you "rarely read the Bible" considering your interest in Hebrew culture and history.

I mean read it like a regular book. From cover to cover. I pick a topic, and the  jump from Lev 1 to Num 8, to Mat 1, Gen 8 etc.

So I read topics. Not chapters or books.

I hope that makes sense

In some ways it is similar to the amplified Bible which also has alternative meanings in parenthesis. I really like it a lot.

Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 11:26:02 PM
The ancient manuscripts have errors because they were copied by humans, but it is my understanding that nothing varies regarding doctrine.

Also regarding doctrine. Just Google for missing and added verses. There are thousands of copy errors but the vast majority are just tiny spelling errors. When I write error I never mean such trivial mistakes. We didn't have such discussion since you are a member here but sometimes a tiny different translation changes a whole verse.
The other point I was trying to make even if the manuscript is 100% original and the translator super skilled and unbiased problems may arise.
What if  a Greek or Hebrew word clearly has 2 or more meanings. Jesus purposely picked those words as a word play to put two meanings into one verse.
Then the translator has two choices. Pick one rendering (most Bibles) or add alternative renderings. Mitchell excels in that part.

So once again it's not slandering the CLV but merely pointing out they can't do the impossible.

Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 18, 2013, 09:19:51 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 18, 2013, 08:56:00 PM
WW--I never even heard of the Jonathan Mitchell translation

http://www.greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/

if you like it, i have a version with color which makes it easier to read.

Thanks ...  when I was searching for online Jonathan Mitchell translation, greater-Emmanuel was on the list and I immediately went to their website... I'm kind of a black/white person so I'll stick with the version ...

I find it pretty unreadle  :LH:

[attachment deleted by admin]

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 19, 2013, 09:57:55 AM

Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 11:26:02 PM
The ancient manuscripts have errors because they were copied by humans, but it is my understanding that nothing varies regarding doctrine.

Also regarding doctrine. Just Google for missing and added verses. There are thousands of copy errors but the vast majority are just tiny spelling errors. When I write error I never mean such trivial mistakes. We didn't have such discussion since you are a member here but sometimes a tiny different translation changes a whole verse.
The other point I was trying to make even if the manuscript is 100% original and the translator super skilled and unbiased problems may arise.
What if  a Greek or Hebrew word clearly has 2 or more meanings. Jesus purposely picked those words as a word play to put two meanings into one verse.
Then the translator has two choices. Pick one rendering (most Bibles) or add alternative renderings. Mitchell excels in that part.

So once again it's not slandering the CLV but merely pointing out they can't do the impossible.

I just took another look at Mitchell's New Testament for your sake, and the first thing I notice is the use of "age" in the place of "eon" similar to Young's Literal Translation. The Greek "aion" literally means "eon" which is more accurate than "age." That may seem insignificant to some, but, as you point out, sometimes a small change can make a big difference.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

Choosing a version of scripture to study is a matter of personal choice, and I prefer the Concordant Version. It is not perfect. I would prefer an updated edition with some of the words modernized, but it seems to me to be the most accurate translation. So I plan to keep using it. Their concordance and commentary are handy too.

I have no investment in the Concordant Publishing Concern. I only gave my opinion about my experience with it because jbertonbounds asked. Most folks seem to be unaware of it or don't like the literal translation because it's not as easy to read as other versions, but I think accuracy is the most important reason to choose a translation. We're all still guessing though unless we understand the ancient languages, and, if we understood the ancient languages, we wouldn't need a translation.

Thanks everybody! :thumbsup:

Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 08:23:27 PM
I read the King James for many years and tried several other versions, but I prefer the Concordant Version because it translates the meaning of words consistently according to the concordance with a very few exceptions for the sake of idiom.

That's it strength but at the same time it's weakness.
The ONLY thing a translation should do translate concepts thoughts. Even if that means verses are completely butchered. But that will inject truckloads of doctrine. And totally impossible for reasons already mentioned. I would eve say that the perfect Bible must be at least be 7x thicker that any other translation (assuming same letter size etc)


My view is firm and this: Everyone who sticks to just one translation is doing things (very) wrong.

Consistency is just false security. It eases the mind because less thinking is needed.   
But it's not a good basis to start with. The CLV certainly isn't bad. I would advise everyone to use it but I would advise nobody to only use CLV or any other translation.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2013, 07:22:28 AM

Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 08:23:27 PM
I read the King James for many years and tried several other versions, but I prefer the Concordant Version because it translates the meaning of words consistently according to the concordance with a very few exceptions for the sake of idiom.

That's it strength but at the same time it's weakness.
The ONLY thing a translation should do translate concepts thoughts. Even if that means verses are completely butchered. But that will inject truckloads of doctrine. And totally impossible for reasons already mentioned. I would eve say that the perfect Bible must be at least be 7x thicker that any other translation (assuming same letter size etc)


My view is firm and this: Everyone who sticks to just one translation is doing things (very) wrong.

Consistency is just false security. It eases the mind because less thinking is needed.   
But it's not a good basis to start with. The CLV certainly isn't bad. I would advise everyone to use it but I would advise nobody to only use CLV or any other translation.

I use the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer to compare the Authorized Version (King James), Young's Literal Translation, and the Concordant Version. I also see how various other versions translate verses at times. I simply prefer the Concordant Version.

For sure this is a wonderful discussion but one (IMO) deeply flawed.  :sigh:

Father has revealed his Word in a variety different forms for a REASON! Each translation fills a need for Fathers plan. It is great to compare notes, but to laud one translation over another is forgetting why there are differing ones in the first place.

Never forget the debates most of us have had with ET'ers. Black = White and NOTHING, not even Jesus Himself could change there minds.

Jhn 6:65 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=6&v=65&t=NIV#s=1003065)
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

The simple truth is that there is NOT a single Bible that the truth cannot be found if one has been "enabled" to see. All this talk about the correct words is like describing a forest by focusing on just a plant or two.

It is not the Tools alone that make a great tradesman, for a great tradesman relies mostly on skill and discernment. The tools just make his/her life easier because the "skill" to use them correctly is present.

The simple truth is that no matter what a blind man holds in his hands, the words mean nothing because he cannot see them. I can't help but feel that it would be most beneficial discussing why Father caused so much confusion with HIS HOLY WORD. The answer is because of LOVE, for if we can see differences of understanding through LOVE, then surely the differences simply evaporate. :dsunny:

I hope this post is taken in the spirit of love in which it is given.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 20, 2013, 03:27:18 PM
For sure this is a wonderful discussion but one (IMO) deeply flawed.  :sigh:

Father has revealed his Word in a variety different forms for a REASON! Each translation fills a need for Fathers plan. It is great to compare notes, but to laud one translation over another is forgetting why there are differing ones in the first place.

Never forget the debates most of us have had with ET'ers. Black = White and NOTHING, not even Jesus Himself could change there minds.

Jhn 6:65 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=6&v=65&t=NIV#s=1003065)
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

The simple truth is that there is NOT a single Bible that the truth cannot be found if one has been "enabled" to see. All this talk about the correct words is like describing a forest by focusing on just a plant or two.

It is not the Tools alone that make a great tradesman, for a great tradesman relies mostly on skill and discernment. The tools just make his/her life easier because the "skill" to use them correctly is present.

The simple truth is that no matter what a blind man holds in his hands, the words mean nothing because he cannot see them. I can't help but feel that it would be most beneficial discussing why Father caused so much confusion with HIS HOLY WORD. The answer is because of LOVE, for if we can see differences of understanding through LOVE, then surely the differences simply evaporate. :dsunny:

I hope this post is taken in the spirit of love in which it is given.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

The main message of the word of God is definitely God's love for all creation as you say, Julie, but I think folks see that more clearly in some versions than others. That's why everybody has their own preference. Everybody has a different perspective, but we just need to remember God is love even if we don't all agree on how we interpret various things in the word of God. We are all family. Like any family, we have our disagreements, but we are bound together by the spirit of God which is love. God created all, and God will reconcile all because God is love.   

Quote from: Tom on September 20, 2013, 04:34:59 PM
The main message of the word of God is definitely God's love for all creation as you say, Julie, but I think folks see that more clearly in some versions than others. That's why everybody has their own preference. Everybody has a different perspective, but we just need to remember God is love even if we don't all agree on how we interpret various things in the word of God. We are all family. Like any family, we have our disagreements, but we are bound together by the spirit of God which is love. God created all, and God will reconcile all because God is love.

Thanks Tom for understanding  :HeartThrob:


I was just trying to say that by comparing Bibles with all their flaws, we may well for in the trap of believing that Fathers Word is only as good as the translators understanding. Though this is a valid argument, it creates division. Something that we, Fathers children should avoid at all costs.


Trust is all the more powerful it is based on faith immersed in Love.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 20, 2013, 03:27:18 PM
Father has revealed his Word in a variety different forms for a REASON! Each translation fills a need for Fathers plan. It is great to compare notes, but to laud one translation over another is forgetting why there are differing ones in the first place.

And that reason is?

QuoteThe simple truth is that there is NOT a single Bible that the truth cannot be found if one has been "enabled" to see.

How many would be enabled without there being any Bible?
May sound odd, but I think God's opinion is that a Bible is beneficial and that's why He had it written. Study theyself approved.

QuoteAll this talk about the correct words is like describing a forest by focusing on just a plant or two.

What's even worse than that is trying to minimize the importance of the written Word because THAT is a slippery slope that leads to fantasy doctrines for sure. Personally I classify calling the Bible a plant or two in the forest as (bordering) slander.

QuoteIt is not the Tools alone that make a great tradesman, for a great tradesman relies mostly on skill and discernment. The tools just make his/her life easier because the "skill" to use them correctly is present.

How did that tradesman learn his trade?

QuoteThe simple truth is that no matter what a blind man holds in his hands, the words mean nothing because he cannot see them. I can't help but feel that it would be most beneficial discussing why Father caused so much confusion with HIS HOLY WORD. The answer is because of LOVE, for if we can see differences of understanding through LOVE, then surely the differences simply evaporate.

All traditions of the Pharisees were based on instructions God gave. Their interpretation was wrong but they tried. Jesus confronted them head-on with their junk teachings. Jesus sure was able to "see differences trough love" but he didn't hug the Pharisees and overlook their wrong interpretations "in love".

"Have a pattern of sound words, which you hear from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." (2 Timothy 1:13)

"13 The pattern of sound words is one of the most serious needs for the student of the Scriptures. If it was necessary for Timothy to cling to the particular Greek expressions used by the apostle, how much greater is the need for some definite pattern on which to model the words of aversion? How can the English reader hope to fulfill this exhortation when the translations which he uses publicly proclaim their avoidance of any uniformity or pattern in their production? The constant and consistent use of correct terms is one of the greatest possible aids in assimilating and teaching truth. The greatest hindrance is the inconsistent use of inexact terms which have their force nullified by use in incorrect contexts." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 324)

Here's something else a bible is good for.

http://www.zanylol.com/accident.html

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2013, 04:55:23 PM

Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 20, 2013, 03:27:18 PM
Father has revealed his Word in a variety different forms for a REASON! Each translation fills a need for Fathers plan. It is great to compare notes, but to laud one translation over another is forgetting why there are differing ones in the first place.

And that reason is?


Perhaps I should ask you WhiteWings why this would be, as you seem quite verbose with the Scriptures, but you did ask first......

Never forget that Father knew before creation that all "this" confusion regarding His Word, the Bible would take place. With Spiritual maturity, one realizes that nothing matters but Love. What matters more? The fact that some read and do not comprehend and I scoff, or that I love them without condition. Can you WW show me a Bible in which Fathers saving grace cannot be found, if one has eyes to see?

QuoteThe simple truth is that there is NOT a single Bible that the truth cannot be found if one has been "enabled" to see.

How many would be enabled without there being any Bible?
May sound odd, but I think God's opinion is that a Bible is beneficial and that's why He had it written. Study theyself approved.


Just as many as now. Perhaps even more?


Rom 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


The key here is living and seeing, enjoy and appreaciting all of Fathers Creation and seeing Him in all of it, thus understanding his very nature.  :HeartThrob:

QuoteAll this talk about the correct words is like describing a forest by focusing on just a plant or two.

What's even worse than that is trying to minimize the importance of the written Word because THAT is a slippery slope that leads to fantasy doctrines for sure. Personally I classify calling the Bible a plant or two in the forest as (bordering) slander.


I think you missed that I was referring to the "Bible" as a vast, beautiful and grand forrest and the plant or two as mere words. No problem.  :HeartThrob:

QuoteIt is not the Tools alone that make a great tradesman, for a great tradesman relies mostly on skill and discernment. The tools just make his/her life easier because the "skill" to use them correctly is present.

How did that tradesman learn his trade?


By being mentored or serving as a trainee, being taught by "doing." Learning by doing is always a beneficial way to fully grasp any trade.

QuoteThe simple truth is that no matter what a blind man holds in his hands, the words mean nothing because he cannot see them. I can't help but feel that it would be most beneficial discussing why Father caused so much confusion with HIS HOLY WORD. The answer is because of LOVE, for if we can see differences of understanding through LOVE, then surely the differences simply evaporate.

All traditions of the Pharisees were based on instructions God gave. Their interpretation was wrong but they tried. Jesus confronted them head-on with their junk teachings. Jesus sure was able to "see differences trough love" but he didn't hug the Pharisees and overlook their wrong interpretations "in love".


Of course they tried: Don't we all. Jesus confronted "them" head-on, not because they were acting in LOVE, but that they were self-righteous and indignant concerning their "knowledge." Of course Jesus could see their short comings, just as he can just as easily see yours, mine and everyone else's. You are right, Jesus did not hug them, but he did "DIE" for them, just as he did for us. No greater love can be displayed than to die for those whom despise you, that they may live. He Loved them! Can we do the same? :HeartThrob:


Can such LOVE be found by reading Fathers word? Perhaps. Can it be found by looking at the heavens on a cloudless night sky? Perhaps also. But isn't LOVE and truth found by Father opening eyes and hearts through Spirit? I think so, as He alone is the "enabler. " It all comes down to LOVE, nothing more and nothing less. I say to you, that any person who can LOVE unconditionally, having never seen the Scriptures has a greater portion of truth than those that Love with conditions and study diligently.

Mat 7: 80-20
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Love Julie :HeartThrob: 

Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 20, 2013, 08:22:09 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2013, 04:55:23 PM

Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 20, 2013, 03:27:18 PM
Father has revealed his Word in a variety different forms for a REASON! Each translation fills a need for Fathers plan. It is great to compare notes, but to laud one translation over another is forgetting why there are differing ones in the first place.

And that reason is?


Perhaps I should ask you WhiteWings why this would be, as you seem quite verbose with the Scriptures, but you did ask first......

Never forget that Father knew before creation that all "this" confusion regarding His Word, the Bible would take place. With Spiritual maturity, one realizes that nothing matters but Love. What matters more? The fact that some read and do not comprehend and I scoff, or that I love them without condition. Can you WW show me a Bible in which Fathers saving grace cannot be found, if one has eyes to see?

QuoteThe simple truth is that there is NOT a single Bible that the truth cannot be found if one has been "enabled" to see.

How many would be enabled without there being any Bible?
May sound odd, but I think God's opinion is that a Bible is beneficial and that's why He had it written. Study theyself approved.


Just as many as now. Perhaps even more?


Rom 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


The key here is living and seeing, enjoy and appreaciting all of Fathers Creation and seeing Him in all of it, thus understanding his very nature.  :HeartThrob:

QuoteAll this talk about the correct words is like describing a forest by focusing on just a plant or two.

What's even worse than that is trying to minimize the importance of the written Word because THAT is a slippery slope that leads to fantasy doctrines for sure. Personally I classify calling the Bible a plant or two in the forest as (bordering) slander.


I think you missed that I was referring to the "Bible" as a vast, beautiful and grand forrest and the plant or two as mere words. No problem.  :HeartThrob:

QuoteIt is not the Tools alone that make a great tradesman, for a great tradesman relies mostly on skill and discernment. The tools just make his/her life easier because the "skill" to use them correctly is present.

How did that tradesman learn his trade?


By being mentored or serving as a trainee, being taught by "doing." Learning by doing is always a beneficial way to fully grasp any trade.

QuoteThe simple truth is that no matter what a blind man holds in his hands, the words mean nothing because he cannot see them. I can't help but feel that it would be most beneficial discussing why Father caused so much confusion with HIS HOLY WORD. The answer is because of LOVE, for if we can see differences of understanding through LOVE, then surely the differences simply evaporate.

All traditions of the Pharisees were based on instructions God gave. Their interpretation was wrong but they tried. Jesus confronted them head-on with their junk teachings. Jesus sure was able to "see differences trough love" but he didn't hug the Pharisees and overlook their wrong interpretations "in love".


Of course they tried: Don't we all. Jesus confronted "them" head-on, not because they were acting in LOVE, but that they were self-righteous and indignant concerning their "knowledge." Of course Jesus could see their short comings, just as he can just as easily see yours, mine and everyone else's. You are right, Jesus did not hug them, but he did "DIE" for them, just as he did for us. No greater love can be displayed than to die for those whom despise you, that they may live. He Loved them! Can we do the same? :HeartThrob:


Can such LOVE be found by reading Fathers word? Perhaps. Can it be found by looking at the heavens on a cloudless night sky? Perhaps also. But isn't LOVE and truth found by Father opening eyes and hearts through Spirit? I think so, as He alone is the "enabler. " It all comes down to LOVE, nothing more and nothing less. I say to you, that any person who can LOVE unconditionally, having never seen the Scriptures has a greater portion of truth than those that Love with conditions and study diligently.

Mat 7: 80-20
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Love Julie :HeartThrob: 

I like this part the best..."I say to you, that any person who can LOVE unconditionally, having never seen the Scriptures has a greater portion of truth than those that Love with conditions and study diligently."

Julie, I've read your answer and decided not to reply besides this short reply. Either you don't understand the point I try to make (I think you do) or you hold a view that that's impossible for me to agree on. Frankly speaking it gets under my skin in a bad way.

Let me say this  the forest including the 2 plants are the whole truth. Who thinks there is truth outside/beside the forest is rejecting the forest.

:2c:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2013, 09:27:53 PM
Julie, I've read your answer and decided not to reply besides this short reply. Either you don't understand the point I try to make (I think you do) or you hold a view that that's impossible for me to agree on. Frankly speaking it gets under my skin in a bad way.

Let me say this  the forest including the 2 plants are the whole truth. Who thinks there is truth outside/beside the forest is rejecting the forest.

:2c:

WhiteWings I truly mean you no disrespect. Honestly, I do not understand the point you were making, unless it is ONLY by studying and questioning every word the Holy Scriptures contain. I am not saying that it is and I hopefully did not imply that it was. If so, then shame on me.


Speaking from my experience only, the Love and Truth that Father has given me these last couple of years can only be "validated" through His Holy Word and likewise His Creation.


I do NOT believe his Truth or Love can be "found," rather that it must be GIVEN by Father alone, very much in the same way a child learns from his/her parents.


In NO WAY am I rejecting Fathers HOLY Word, perhaps you did not mean that. Because if that were true, I would not Hold that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father allows it. It's all down to Father  and nothing else. Knowing this is enough for me as I need not worry about anything.


It does not matter that we cannot find agreement, just that we have love and peace between us.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Tom on September 20, 2013, 08:30:19 PM
I like this part the best..."I say to you, that any person who can LOVE unconditionally, having never seen the Scriptures has a greater portion of truth than those that Love with conditions and study diligently."

Absolutely!  They show that they have the law written on their hearts.

Romans 2:12-16 - ¹² For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. ¹³ For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. ¹⁴ For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. ¹⁵ They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them ¹⁶ on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:14 - For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

An unbeliever's works and what their "love" is, and what the "law unto themselves" means, IMO, bears a lot of study, context, rightly dividing, and Spirit revelation.  I'm not saying I've done it or have it.  I need to "work" on that.  :)

"Love without the scripture" vs. "having the scripture, studying it, and having conditions", IMO, is just a narrow cut of things, and doesn't really comprehensively take into account the various pertinent issues.  To me, the issue is, if you have the scriptures (or any level of true knowledge of God, HOWEVER HE'S CHOSEN TO REVEAL IT,  i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), we're still to love of course, but also rightly divide the Word of Truth and handle whatever's been given to us carefully.   Because to whom much is given, much is required.  OTOH, if someone has NO saving knowledge of God (i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), they may have some form of love/kindness, etc., but does that go anywhere toward their spiritual new birth, other than that their make-up/condition of their heart is perhaps softer and more receptive to the ONLY thing that EVERYONE must do - either in this age or the next?  And that's to bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father (being given faith to believe on Him as Savior). 

I've got some more understanding to do, because when talking about works, Paul said our righteousness is as filthy rags.   :Chinscratch:

Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 01:27:56 AM
An unbeliever's works and what their "love" is, and what the "law unto themselves" means, IMO, bears a lot of study, context, rightly dividing, and Spirit revelation.  I'm not saying I've done it or have it.  I need to "work" on that.  :)

"Love without the scripture" vs. "having the scripture, studying it, and having conditions", IMO, is just a narrow cut of things, and doesn't really comprehensively take into account the various pertinent issues.  To me, the issue is, if you have the scriptures (or any level of true knowledge of God, HOWEVER HE'S CHOSEN TO REVEAL IT,  i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), we're still to love of course, but also rightly divide the Word of Truth and handle whatever's been given to us carefully.   Because to whom much is given, much is required.  OTOH, if someone has NO saving knowledge of God (i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), they may have some form of love/kindness, etc., but I don't believe that goes anywhere toward their spiritual new birth, unless it's that their make-up/condition of their heart is perhaps softer and more receptive to the ONLY thing that EVERYONE must do - either in this age or the next.  And that's to bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  IMO, anything else is loss.

I think we all "need to "work" on that" continuously, brother. I agree that "correctly cutting the word of truth" and a "pattern of sound words" is important so that we can correctly share the truth with those who don't know it. I think it's our responsibility to do that, and we need to know the truth to do it. That's why I study the word of God daily. I think we receive the spirit of God through the word of God, and that increases our love as well as our knowledge and wisdom. I also believe we need to study the word of God to know the correct doctrine as opposed to being deceived by the philosophy of man that may seem right but is a trap of the Adversary. Worldly wisdom is not the same thing as true wisdom that comes from God through the word of God.

Quote from: Tom on September 21, 2013, 02:19:01 AM

Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 01:27:56 AM
An unbeliever's works and what their "love" is, and what the "law unto themselves" means, IMO, bears a lot of study, context, rightly dividing, and Spirit revelation.  I'm not saying I've done it or have it.  I need to "work" on that.  :)

"Love without the scripture" vs. "having the scripture, studying it, and having conditions", IMO, is just a narrow cut of things, and doesn't really comprehensively take into account the various pertinent issues.  To me, the issue is, if you have the scriptures (or any level of true knowledge of God, HOWEVER HE'S CHOSEN TO REVEAL IT,  i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), we're still to love of course, but also rightly divide the Word of Truth and handle whatever's been given to us carefully.   Because to whom much is given, much is required.  OTOH, if someone has NO saving knowledge of God (i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), they may have some form of love/kindness, etc., but I don't believe that goes anywhere toward their spiritual new birth, unless it's that their make-up/condition of their heart is perhaps softer and more receptive to the ONLY thing that EVERYONE must do - either in this age or the next.  And that's to bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  IMO, anything else is loss.

I think we all "need to "work" on that," brother. I agree that "correctly cutting the word of truth" and a "pattern of sound words" is important so that we can correctly share the truth with those who don't know it. I think it's our responsibility to do that, and we need to know the truth to do it. That's why I study the word of God daily. I think we receive the spirit of God through the word of God, and that increases our love as well as our knowledge and wisdom. I also believe we need to study the word of God to know the correct doctrine as opposed to being deceived by the philosophy of man that may seem right but is a trap of the Adversary. Worldly wisdom is not the same thing as true wisdom that comes from God through the word of God.

Amen.  I'm interested in what various people think, but everyone thinks something.  Explain what's the understanding from the scriptures, having closely examined and explored any known relevant sides of it (CONTEXT) then let me take it before the Lord for understanding, confirmation, rejection, etc.  Test all things.  Including anything I say.   :mblush:  Amen.

I've been looking at the whole "law unto themselves" idea.  I think it's very important, but often misunderstood -and I'm probably one of them.  I realize what it says, but what I really wonder is, with all other connected scriptures taken into account, what it really means.

If I dig too much here I'll derail this thread.  But there are sure a variety of views on it, from "if a pagan treats people nice, or does a kind deed, he's following his own conscience, so God's really OK with him/will reward him" [law and works thread], to "that scripture passage is really showing people their guilt before God no matter the amount of truth they have or not, so it doesn't change that all have to come through Christ [kneel and confess] and be forgiven", among 9,374 other views.  OK, I won't say more, but if anyone would like to start a thread on it, that might be good - or I might later.  In the meantime, I'm pondering... :Chinscratch:

Quote from: Tom on September 19, 2013, 03:24:47 PM
I just took another look at Mitchell's New Testament for your sake, and the first thing I notice is the use of "age" in the place of "eon" similar to Young's Literal Translation. The Greek "aion" literally means "eon" which is more accurate than "age." That may seem insignificant to some, but, as you point out, sometimes a small change can make a big difference.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

They don't sound really convinced of their own position, but I understand it.
One bit of logic I don't agree with or find very weak at best

Quote"The crowning proof that the idea of endlessness is foreign to olam is afforded by the phrase 'for ever and ever.' The English reader may suppose the second 'ever' to be the same word as the first. But it is not. The Hebrew is va-ed. As the Septuagint translates it, 'and still,' and as the translators have so rendered it in scores of places, we will translate it 'beyond' or 'further.' Now, if olam meant endlessness as some say it does, why reinforce it by adding 'beyond'?

It seems to very closely related by the argument of others: "Ever and ever doesn't make sense because there is only one eternity."
Stricktly speaking that's a simple fact; but not how language works. In my first language we have a quite common expression "for always and ever".
Jesus often said "Verily, verily" (John 3:3)
At other times He just used the word once (Matt 5:18)
Verily has the meaning of sure, true, truth, fact etc.
Does that mean Jesus' words were not always equally truthful? Of course not.
That's why I find "for ever and beyond" weak proof.

:2c:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2013, 08:52:42 AM

Quote from: Tom on September 19, 2013, 03:24:47 PM
I just took another look at Mitchell's New Testament for your sake, and the first thing I notice is the use of "age" in the place of "eon" similar to Young's Literal Translation. The Greek "aion" literally means "eon" which is more accurate than "age." That may seem insignificant to some, but, as you point out, sometimes a small change can make a big difference.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html

They don't sound really convinced of their own position, but I understand it.
One bit of logic I don't agree with or find very weak at best

Quote"The crowning proof that the idea of endlessness is foreign to olam is afforded by the phrase 'for ever and ever.' The English reader may suppose the second 'ever' to be the same word as the first. But it is not. The Hebrew is va-ed. As the Septuagint translates it, 'and still,' and as the translators have so rendered it in scores of places, we will translate it 'beyond' or 'further.' Now, if olam meant endlessness as some say it does, why reinforce it by adding 'beyond'?

It seems to very closely related by the argument of others: "Ever and ever doesn't make sense because there is only one eternity."
Stricktly speaking that's a simple fact; but not how language works. In my first language we have a quite common expression "for always and ever".
Jesus often said "Verily, verily" (John 3:3)
At other times He just used the word once (Matt 5:18)
Verily has the meaning of sure, true, truth, fact etc.
Does that mean Jesus' words were not always equally truthful? Of course not.
That's why I find "for ever and beyond" weak proof.

:2c:

The fact is that the Greek "aion" literally means "eon" which is a period of time not infinite time. The following verse indicates that there is more than one eon and they have consummations. So any period of time with a consummation does not go on "forever" or "forever and ever." That is simply intentional mistranslation of the word of God to propagate the lies of immortality of the soul and torture forever in fire.

"Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)

Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 01:27:56 AM
An unbeliever's works and what their "love" is, and what the "law unto themselves" means, IMO, bears a lot of study, context, rightly dividing, and Spirit revelation.  I'm not saying I've done it or have it.  I need to "work" on that.  :)

"Love without the scripture" vs. "having the scripture, studying it, and having conditions", IMO, is just a narrow cut of things, and doesn't really comprehensively take into account the various pertinent issues.  To me, the issue is, if you have the scriptures (or any level of true knowledge of God, HOWEVER HE'S CHOSEN TO REVEAL IT,  i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), we're still to love of course, but also rightly divide the Word of Truth and handle whatever's been given to us carefully.   Because to whom much is given, much is required.  OTOH, if someone has NO saving knowledge of God (i.e., His Son is the Savior on whom we need to believe), they may have some form of love/kindness, etc., but does that go anywhere toward their spiritual new birth, other than that their make-up/condition of their heart is perhaps softer and more receptive to the ONLY thing that EVERYONE must do - either in this age or the next?  And that's to bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father (being given faith to believe on Him as Savior). 

I've got some more understanding to do, because when talking about works, Paul said our righteousness is as filthy rags.   :Chinscratch:

Don't misunderstand what I was saying.  Certainly Jesus is the only way to life/salvation.  I understood Tom to say that someone who loves unconditionally but has no knowledge of scripture is better off (in a way) than someone who knows scripture but does not have that quality of love.  I didn't take that to mean that a loving person's love saves them regardless of their knowledge of the scriptures, but only that they are better off in a manner of speaking.  I have often said myself that a kind person who doesn't believe in God is better off than a mean "Christian" - and believe me, they're out their.  The "Christian" who does not love has no excuse for it.  I think they will be judged much more harshly than the sweet, loving old lady down the street who did good deeds but never went to church.  Again, not saying that her works earned salvation.  Consider the following verses:

Heb 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallenfn away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Heb 6:8 - But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

It is clear from these verses that one who has the truth in their hands, yet does not follow in it is condemned for it.

Heb 6.10 - God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

This verse shows that our God will be fair. 

My point is that, YES, faith in Jesus is the only way to eonian life.  Those who never heard of the scriptures or of Jesus will be raised in the 2nd resurrection and will still have to be purified in the lake of fire, but certainly not to the degree of those who were wicked in their lifestyles.  I believe that they will be rewarded for their good works.  That's my opinion.

Good advice you gave - continue studying, praying for understanding and wisdom, and sharing with all humility and loving kindness, knowing we don't know all.  Stay humble.

Thanks j for the good input.  It was helpful.  I've never really "worried' much about this particular issue before until the past couple years or so.  Now I'm finding it, at least some aspects of it, a bit perplexing.  And I guess I see people all over the place with it, some of it seeming worth considering/reconsidering, while some of it seems pretty much "out there" and just doesn't ring true to me.  So it's sort of gotten my attention lately.  Thanks again.

j, what do you think about this article?  The comments at the end are also interesting IMO...hint - we're not the only ones wondering about it.  :o

http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/articles/filthy-rags/filthy-rags.php

a couple of comments following the article;

Comment 1  "I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. It has been enlightening from both perspectives. I am most afraid however of what I see in many 'church' people. Many are quite proud [regarding works] ...How one can believe they have salvation without the blood of Christ atoning for their imperfections is a slowly creeping error that should be uncovered."

---------

Comment 2  "I think the deception of Satan is very subtle, as his servants are disguised as "servants of righteousness." If we truly allow Christ to be the End of the law for righteousness, then we are able to understand and submit to HIS righteousness. Truthfully speaking, no one deserves to enter the kingdom of God because no one is good, no one is righteous, and all sin. Apart from Him we can do nothing, and we are all still in our sins. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so we must be born from above - by the Spirit (in the higher, spiritual realm of consciousness- understanding by the Spirit what God has FREELY given us). It is only by Grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Righteous One, that we enter in...not by works. We enter in through His blood and HIS righteousness...the gates are HIS righteousness...He IS the gate. We don't need to focus on our own good works, but on the finished work of Christ. Whenever we can get that foundation laid right and settle it in our minds, then we are truly a new creation - made new in the spirit of our minds, created to be like God in True righteousness and holiness. Then we are all on an equal playing field, with HIS righteousness as the measuring stick...and then there will be no more pride over one another. This is what I think the church has misunderstood. But it's the most important thing, because this IS the gospel. "The life I live in the flesh, I live BY FAITH in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
--------

This discussion fits in the Works/Law thread too - they're kind of overlapping.  But I really think that's how scriptural/spiritual discussion are anyway - one thing connected to another.  Anyway, blessings.

Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 21, 2013, 10:23:02 PMDon't misunderstand what I was saying.  Certainly Jesus is the only way to life/salvation.  I understood Tom to say that someone who loves unconditionally but has no knowledge of scripture is better off (in a way) than someone who knows scripture but does not have that quality of love.

I don't know how far reaching it is but this verse certainly aligns with your view:

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

QuoteI didn't take that to mean that a loving person's love saves them regardless of their knowledge of the scriptures, but only that they are better off in a manner of speaking.

Being saved = Belief + works + grace.
Everyone will have a different level of belief and works. I think the solution is simple. The Father just works extra on the parts that need extra work.
Who is closed to what Father requires is best off. But when all is said and done neither lack of faith or works has been overlooked.


 

QuoteI have often said myself that a kind person who doesn't believe in God is better off than a mean "Christian" - and believe me, they're out their.

Part of being a Christian is:
Matt 22:36-40 (ACV)
36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 And Jesus said to him, Thou shall love Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law, and the prophets.

So love is part of being a Christian. So again I repeat it's a package deal. Not every part of the package requires to be a Christian. But that does not mean its strictly required to become one in some moment in time.

I think that package deal is what always should be mentioned. I sense large part of this debate is that people assume the discussion partner wants minimize or even completely do away with a certain 'ingredient'. It's AND not or.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 22, 2013, 12:06:48 AM

Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 21, 2013, 10:23:02 PMDon't misunderstand what I was saying.  Certainly Jesus is the only way to life/salvation.  I understood Tom to say that someone who loves unconditionally but has no knowledge of scripture is better off (in a way) than someone who knows scripture but does not have that quality of love.

I don't know how far reaching it is but this verse certainly aligns with your view:

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

QuoteI didn't take that to mean that a loving person's love saves them regardless of their knowledge of the scriptures, but only that they are better off in a manner of speaking.

Being saved = Belief + works + grace.
Everyone will have a different level of belief and works. I think the solution is simple. The Father just works extra on the parts that need extra work.
Who is closed to what Father requires is best off. But when all is said and done neither lack of faith or works has been overlooked.


 

QuoteI have often said myself that a kind person who doesn't believe in God is better off than a mean "Christian" - and believe me, they're out their.

Part of being a Christian is:
Matt 22:36-40 (ACV)
36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 And Jesus said to him, Thou shall love Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law, and the prophets.

So love is part of being a Christian. So again I repeat it's a package deal. Not every part of the package requires to be a Christian. But that does not mean its strictly required to become one in some moment in time.

I think that package deal is what always should be mentioned. I sense large part of this debate is that people assume the discussion partner wants minimize or even completely do away with a certain 'ingredient'. It's AND not or.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 11:32:05 PM
j, what do you think about this article?  The comments at the end are also interesting IMO...hint - we're not the only ones wondering about it.  :o

http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/articles/filthy-rags/filthy-rags.php

a couple of comments following the article;

Comment 1  "I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. It has been enlightening from both perspectives. I am most afraid however of what I see in many 'church' people. Many are quite proud [regarding works] ...How one can believe they have salvation without the blood of Christ atoning for their imperfections is a slowly creeping error that should be uncovered."

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Comment 2  "I think the deception of Satan is very subtle, as his servants are disguised as "servants of righteousness." If we truly allow Christ to be the End of the law for righteousness, then we are able to understand and submit to HIS righteousness. Truthfully speaking, no one deserves to enter the kingdom of God because no one is good, no one is righteous, and all sin. Apart from Him we can do nothing, and we are all still in our sins. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so we must be born from above - by the Spirit (in the higher, spiritual realm of consciousness- understanding by the Spirit what God has FREELY given us). It is only by Grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Righteous One, that we enter in...not by works. We enter in through His blood and HIS righteousness...the gates are HIS righteousness...He IS the gate. We don't need to focus on our own good works, but on the finished work of Christ. Whenever we can get that foundation laid right and settle it in our minds, then we are truly a new creation - made new in the spirit of our minds, created to be like God in True righteousness and holiness. Then we are all on an equal playing field, with HIS righteousness as the measuring stick...and then there will be no more pride over one another. This is what I think the church has misunderstood. But it's the most important thing, because this IS the gospel. "The life I live in the flesh, I live BY FAITH in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
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This discussion fits in the Works/Law thread too - they're kind of overlapping.  But I really think that's how scriptural/spiritual discussion are anyway - one thing connected to another.  Anyway, blessings.

Fascinating topic and article.  I never thought of it like that.  I was indoctrinated by the worldly "church" the same way he described in the article - that nothing we do is anything but filthy rags in his sight.  But I can clearly see his point and I agree.  The verse was about the unrighteousness of Israel at that time.  It does not apply to all people at all times.  Our good works are righteous if they are done with a pure heart.  He certainly seemed to assert that good works matter even when a person is not a Christian, as in the case of Cornelius.  This would make a good thread sometime - but it will get very interesting, I'm sure! :laughing7: :thumbsup: